Slippery Slope

God's creation WAS perfect, until it brought sin into the world too. Man CHOSE to disobey God and eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Because of that choice death, sin and imperfection entered our world. Each individual person DOES need to change. We have been born of the flesh, and we need to be born again in the Spirit. We must change the way we think (Romans 12:1-2). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Your theory is flawed because nothing exists without the Will of God. Nothing was created without God. Sin was not created by any other means than by the Will of God or else it couldn't exist! You deny that God is the creator of all things; every thought, every particle of matter, everything that ever was or ever will be? Do you believe God didn't know that Adam and Eve would eat from the tree of knowledge? You deny that God created the Serpent and even before that creation, already knew it would tempt Adam and Eve? Still waiting -SS

God is perfect and infallible, he is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent. He created the universe and everything in it therefore, everything is as it was planned and/or should be. There is no need to fix or change anything as this would imply imperfection in creation. Still waiting -SS

6th Commandment; Verse 13: "Thou shalt not kill." or drop bombs on innocent people in order to remove their leader from power... 10th Commandment; Verse 17 "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's." including his oil How did Bush get re-elected without the Christian vote? Still waiting -SS

The problem I see is that the majority of Christians don't care to show love to homosexuals and help them understand their sin but would rather just stone them to death. Basically the aggressive actions of shoving scripture at them and screaming that they will burn in hell. This breeds a hatred for them which can and does turn to violence instead of the love which brings them back to Jesus to change their sinful ways. Still waiting -SS

Wouldn't you be the creator of your children? When you look at a building do believe god mysteriously caused it to appear just because you don't understand how it was built or who actual builder was? Still waiting -SS

To Elle and YoungPastorMarc: Artsylady was trying to make a point about how something can still be "morally wrong" regardless of a societies or cultures belief/law/ritual/habit... She pushed the mutilation of little girls question without understanding what she is asking. You've both proven the point that things that are acceptable to given society are considered taboo to another. As far as comparing the two types of mutilation I would have thought that you were smart enough not to ask such a question. Since I have to spell it out for you here ya go: To a person being killed does it matter if you're head is lopped off or if you are blown to bits, if you bash me on the head with a 10lbs iron hammer or a 5 pound steel hammer does it matter to me, if I saw your arm off with a hack saw or a tree saw is your arm still gone, is one mutilation better than another mutilation? If you young children don't clean behind their ears should we cut them off for cleanliness purposes or should we teach them how to clean behind their ears? You can't justify your own offensive practices while condemning someone elses. Still waiting -SS

Hey Artsylady, do you believe in the mutilation of little boys? It happens right here in the USA, it's called Circumcision and is practiced by Christians. Still waiting -SS

I believe this type of killing and cannablism took (takes) place during conflict (i.e. war). So, since I do believe that war can be justified, and since I do believe in the death penalty etc. I would say, yes. As far as the cannablism goes I would still say it's a disgusting thing that I would not engage in (unless it was absolutely the last resort for my survival) nor condone. For me, canablism is wrong which has nothing to do with religion. What parts of the world is it ok to molest children? I personally don't think it's ok to let baby girls die, nor baby boys... but baby girls and boys die everywhere and I can't stop this from happening. You're right and Christianity is a front runner in the "it's perfectly ok to murder" and there is an abundance of evidence and proof to support this. I believe you are wrong, ALL societies have laws, some of them do not coincide with the laws in the USA. In some societies you may have to give up 3 cows and 2 pigs for murdering someone, in our society you may be put to death in the electric chair for it, who is more civilized in that scenario? I would say murder (which can be different than killing), stealing, adultry, beating the hell out of someone just because you feel like doing it, hording when others around you are in need, pissing on someones food, cutting in line in the grocery store... yeah, I can think of a lot of things that are wrong and they have nothing to do with religion and have always been wrong even in culture or times without and or before Jesus (except the grocery store one). you think I'll have a hard time explaining this? I can't type fast enough to get the explination on the screen. You are wrong, there is evidence that "murder" was wrong long before Moses got the 10 commandments. Humans (primates actually) are just about the only species that "murders" it's own. We kill for sport not just for food, we kill out of anger, jealousy and a plethora of other reasons. A law prohibiting the murder of a citizen of it's society has to be in effect in every society or the society would wipe itself out eventually. It's common sence not to just kill whoever you want because it could happen to you and that would be bad. So no society can function without laws whether they are written down or passed around the community verbally. If you can grasp this then I can't help you. Well thank you SS. It sounds like the answer to you is obvious, which it should be. <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If he does feel better will you attribute his recovery to your prayer to his god? Still waiting -SS

I just wanted to take a moment to say thanks to everyone here for allowing me to question, argue, debate and make friends. I appreciate the opportunity I have here with all of you and I know that sometimes I am not as kind or gentle as I should be. Peace -SS

YoungPastorMarc: From what I've seen written by UF I would say he has plenty of beliefs. He may or may not share them with you. I'll move this discussion to another thread so that we don't dominate this one. I'll respond to you there as well Elle ChadB: #1 as far as I know, no culture ever ate other people as a source of food. I am pretty sure cannablism was practiced by various cultures as a ritual. They would eat certain parts of a vanquished foe to gain strength over their enemies. I don't think it's ok for people to engage in this practice but then again I'm not part of their culture and it is not my place (nor yours) to go to them and impose my belief on them. Suppose they thought that eating peas was the most horrible thing imaginable, you wouldn't think to kindly of them coming to you and telling you what a disgusting person you are. As for your bet, you would lose that one because I believe that murder is wrong. I'm pretty sure that just about every society on the planet frowns on "murder". Did you, in your self righteous indignation and high moral values vote for G.W. Bush? He sent a lot of people off to go kill a lot of other people in Iraq. But killing is wrong... do you support the death penalty? Are you against abortion? You see even in our own culture we can't agree on what is right or wrong. People in other cultures do a lot of things I don't agree with, people in my culture do things I don't agree with. Do I condemn you as a Christian because another Christian burnt down a Jewish Temple? No... Please don't go just because some people do not agree with you. Not everyone in life is going to pat you on the back and love everything just the way you do. Perhaps an anger management group would help you a bit. Tolerance is Christian teaching as well... and for the record I am not an Athiest. Artsylady: now that you've changed the parameters of your question we have a choice between not being helped or being helped... I'll take the "being helped". Of course now the question has nothing to do with good or evil.

I hate to intrude on UndecidedFrogs conversation, especially when he does such a fine job of articulating his belief, but I'd like to interject a couple thoughts. YoungPastorMarc: I feel that the bible is a collection of stories that were selected out of hundreds (perhaps thousands?) and put into a single volume to allow the Emperor Constantine to force his new religion on the wealthy and influential subjects under his rule. These were supposedly the most widely used stories in circulation and the best collection of sales pitches for the religion. I don't mean the term "sales pitches" in a negative way but that over time (a little over 300 years) only the stories that couldn't easily be refuted or that worked well to convert someone were used. It has been shown by MANY scholars that MANY of the stories are VERY similar to stories that were being told by other religions and peoples. It is striking the number of parables and events Christianity claims as "Biblical" that would seem to have been gathered and integrated into Christianity. Artsylady: I'm gonna have to agree with the Frog in that I would much rather someone not do me harm first and help me 2nd. Helping me does me no good if I've been harmed and I would take the long walk to the service station over being shot any day. You misunderstand your own question, the choice between being helpful or not is secondary to doing good or evil. Morality is a function of society. Without religion or without Christianity a society determines it's morality. China (which has a history exceeding the bibles dating of humans) functioned very well for thousands of years without ever hearing of Christ. They had laws against the common man murdering one another or stealing from one another, obeying their elders... Just because in the USA we think a particular practice is wrong doesn't make it so for people in another country. Still waiting -SS

Very sorry to hear about your loss SA. Be strong, my thoughts are with you. Peace -SS

You're right it is funny! I guess I wasn't expecting it from the apologetics forum. Please excuse me for being so serious. Peace -SS

What I find more amusing than the puns by everyone is that you all poke fun at this find to ease your nervous tension about the finding. OK, I'll be the one to say it! Are you all helping each other feel better with humor while you wait for the Christian scientists to figure out how to disprove (or else include it in gods scheme) the findings? The bible only puts humans at about 6000 years on this planet so I would assume that there will eventually be an out pouring of "radio carbon dating is not a valid method of determining the age of anything"... Still waiting -SS

SS, There is no verse in the Bible that contains of all the truth on a given subject. That is why there appears to be contradictions when there are not. That is also why it is important to look at ALL that the Bible says, and not just isolate a couple of passages. When we put the pieces of the puzzle together we get a clearer picture of all that the Scriptures have to say on a give subject. BTW you made my extra references necessary when you said: I showed that Paul said A LOT about being justified by faith before God. You are going to have to look at all that the Bible says, and not just the passages you want to isolate. It is easy to make the Bible say ANYTHING you want if you take just a verse from here and a verse from there, and isolate them and ignore the context and the intended meaning that the author was trying to convey. As for James: You agreed with me when you said: Therefore, since James was not talking about salvation, you cannot apply it to being saved by works by saying: James was not telling people how to get saved, but rather how saved people should act. That is really the whole theme of the book of James. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I certainly hope you are right! Still waiting -SS

I like how you just completely disregard the scripture he quotes (I notice no one else wanted to respond either). How can you just ignore these passages? Still waiting -SS

Greetings SS, The advantage a "believer" has over the "unbeliever" is the Holy Spirit who comes to reside in him. You are confused because you lack the resource (Holy Spirit) for understanding "spiritual" things. So these things will ALWAYS be a mystery or confusing to you. Instead of attempting to "look into" the more mundane aspects of man's relationship with God, what you need to do is to investigate the reality OR non-reality of Jesus Christ. If you can prove to yourself that He isn't who He says He is, then you can go on your merry way, never looking back. This is the ONLY sure way of determining if the Bible is true. Blessings, Dad Ernie <{POST_SNAPBACK}> SS I find it interesting that you copy/paste several other's replies to you and you did not touch Dad Ernie's. I agree with Dad Earnie as to your position concerning Christ. The first thing you need to do is decide if Jesus the Christ is for real and is who he says he is. If not then the rest is junk, and if so........ I think you should be able to see. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The reason I did not reply to Dad Ernie is because he was suggesting the manner in which I should seek my answers. I've already begun looking for the answers and I don't think his suggestion is the right one for me. My method is to try and determine if the bible is the inerrant word of god. If I conclude that it is a divinely inspired work that is infallible then it is clear that There is one god and that Jesus is the Lord. Unfortunately I have come to the conclusion that the bible is not the inerrant word of god, therefore I can not escape the feeling that it is the work of many men with many different motives. We have seen through the centuries the horrors men do in the name of Christ. The bible isn't even able to make all Christians agree on the word of god. How can I put my faith in a god who can't prevent it's followers or even it's most highly regarded teachers from the most basic sins. If you can't even trust it's priests... Anyway, I'm hoping that the holy spirit will find me while I'm having discussions with you all. Still waiting -SS

Ted: No complaint here, just a question. Nicolas: I am Agnostic and therefore am skeptical of the existance of the christian god. So, claiming that you are happy that I believe in god, when I said no such thing would appear to be a sarcastic comment. Dr Luke: Nicolas didn't answer my question so how could I like or dislike it? Christianity (and many other religions) use a fear/reward system to control their followers. Do as I say (which god wants me to tell you) and you get to go to the happy place when you die or you will go to the bad place and be burned and tormented for eternity. Don't eat pork or... Don't (fill in your denominations rules) or... Do give us money... believe in Jesus or... it's a fear/reward system. Still waiting -SS

Perhaps I missed the part where James clarifies that he is talking about faith without deeds before men... looks to me like he is talking about faith without deeds before god. Why must you use scripture from other unrelated books to validate what Paul is talking about? Faith in god is faith in god, before men or before god makes no difference your faith is or is not. I have faith I can spend this quarter at the store, it makes no difference to the store if I shine it up or not. It's pretty simple, Paul is saying that by gods grace you are saved through faith... have faith and you will be saved. James is saying that faith alone is not enough, that without good works (living by gods laws) your faith is dead which in turn means no salvation, for you must have faith to have salvation. there is no need to justify either of these passages by looking outside of these works themselves. Still waiting -SS

Shiloh357 and Nebula: You are both correct about my mistake with Ephesians. It's been so long since I read the bible cover to cover that I confused on the who and what on that. The point however is that James 2 clearly says that without good works faith is dead. That says (to me at least) that your faith is worthless without good works. Thereby you can not get to heaven without BOTH faith and good works. You are saved by gods grace, through faith. Paul says nothing about being justified by faith before god. is this your feeling or is there scripture that says this? I don't recall any scripture that says the way to heaven is through Jesus unless you have no knowledge of Christ. I am not of the "contradiction camp". You must do everything in your power to refute any contradiction because your faith hinges on the inerrancy of the bible. I am not out to prove to you contradictions in the bible, I only noted that some people were using a particular passage to tell someone they are wrong.

Everything in your message is discussed in my previous replies in this thread. As I stated earlier, I have read the bible. Peace -SS

Forgiven, I apologize for my acromony as well... Peace -SS

I am here in the hopes of finding a reason to believe and while I'm searching and waiting to be filled by the Holy Spirit I figure I might as well do what I can to keep you honest, so that you don't just pull whatever suits your current desire out of the bible and quote it. Peace -SS