The Quiet One

This is a personification of the wisdom of God. Wisdom is described as a female because the Greek word takes female gender, just as 'Logos'(word) takes male gender. The same can be said for John 1. This is a personification of the plan and purpose, or wisdom, of God. That scripture does not refer to the pre-existence of Christ as a person, but rather, his existence in the plan and purpose of God.

How about the parable of the talents? To much is given, much is required. How about 'Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth'. This is the same story again. The meek(Lazarus) received the reward while the rich, prideful, glutton(Dives) missed the opportunity. Jesus wasn't lying in this story, the story is true to the gospel.

So, Shiloh, what exactly is wrong? Are you saying Sin and Death did not enter the world through one man? Are you saying the Bible doesn't say that the wages of sin is death? Many times throughout the Bible the word translated for 'hell' is 'sheol', which is the grave. Do you dispute that? And Gehenna? You do know that was the burn pit where they burned trash and bodies outside of Jerusalem? Is that wrong too? And Hades? In Greek is it not 'grave'? So, was Jacob going to go to the grave or to hell to find Joseph? Consider this, for centuries, Hell has been conflated into a fiery torment a la 'Paradise Lost' and 'Dante's Inferno' in order to keep the unlearned lay persons living in FEAR of eternal damnation, so that the congregation is compliant and submissive. All I'm asking is that you consider these things.

I am certainly not a Jehovah's Witness, I am of no denomination. Did you ever think to consider that maybe what some of what you hold so dear is incorrect? At this point, I don't trust any doctrine. I know who God is, I know who Jesus is, I know that he is my saviour, sent for my redemption and he is mankinds advocate and judge. The rest can be talked about.

Jesussaves, The story of Lazarus and Dives is a STORY(parable)............the Bible even says it's a parable, personifying the truth of 'to whom much is given, much is required', as well as 'it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter heaven.' It also lays out the requirement of having ears to hear, saying clearly that the mans family wouldn't listen to the dead if they won't listen to Moses and the Prophets. Be Blessed. To The King!

The Bible says that only those that are responsible are to be judged, that God doesn't impart sin where there is darkness(no knowledge), so what about that?

Sin and death entered the world through one man The wages of sin is death. Thus, the punishment for sin is the grave. Nothing more.

Where is that in scripture? 1 Thessalonians says.......... Consider this...........nowhere in the Bible are the words 'immortal' and 'soul' found together. Paul taught the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ 'sleep', that they 'shall rise first' Butero, are you saying that mankind is judged immediately upon their deaths? How could a person be damned, for instance, without judgement? When Jesus was transfigured on the mountain before his disciples, Moses and Elijah were there speaking with him. God himself buried the body of Moses. This is recorded in Deuteronomy 34:6. That being the case, it had to be his spirit. Elijah had been transported to heaven in a chariot, so not so with him, but regardless, this shows that the body slept but Moses remained alive. Then there is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. They both went directly to paradise or hell. Hell is a type of jail or holding place till the actual final judgement takes place. It would be like having a person accused of a crime, and being placed in jail to await trial. Some criminals have to remain behind bars because no bail is set. While they haven't been convicted, they are still in jail. The end result will be that those who are in hell will be brought before God, judged, and sentenced to the lake of fire. It is not like there is any doubt of their guilt. It is not like some of those in hell will be found not guilty. Man will occassionally make mistakes like that, but not God. These are things to consider, and I will do that. Please consider this, the text clearly states that it was Moses and Elijah. I fully believe that God brought them there to show the connection of Jesus to both the law(Moses) and the prophecy(Elijah). I don't know that they were spirits. I believe God brought them back for a purpose. You see, Jesus says very clearly in John 3:13 that no man has ascended to heaven except the one that came from heaven, that being Jesus. I'll believe what Jesus said on that one. As far as your description of hell, I don't know of any scriptural basis that will support that, unless, as I believe, that hell is simply the grave, 'sheol'. That would make perfect sense, we wait in the grave for our judgement. Thank you for your time, and God Bless. To the King!

Butero wrote.... Where is that in scripture? 1 Thessalonians says.......... Consider this...........nowhere in the Bible are the words 'immortal' and 'soul' found together. Paul taught the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ 'sleep', that they 'shall rise first' Butero, are you saying that mankind is judged immediately upon their deaths? How could a person be damned, for instance, without judgement?

Smal......hello, Actually, I think we need to back up to about 150AD and start looking there. For instance, why was Polyarp burned at the stake in Rome while Anicetus lived for another ten years? After all, Anicetus was the Bishop of Rome, Polycarp was from Smyrna....so how did Anicetus manage to get a pass? But those are discussions for another day. Be Blessed!! To The King!

Beccar, thank you for that word, as it has settled my mind a bit. I know that I have different beliefs than some here, and I pray that all understand that I am seeking the truth, and hope for all of us to find it. To The King!

FresnoJoe, Thank you, and I do consider these things, and I carry a troubled brow, as there are so many that believe in so many different ways. Even with me, here on this board, we read the same scripture and apparently see different things. All I can do is continue to study, to earnestly seek the truth. I have grown wary of men. I see different supposed 'men of God' teach things that are almost completely contradictory, and yet they both proclaim faith in Jesus Christ. How will we ever have unity?

Consider this, with all the conversation about what is going on today, what about the possibility that the main apostasy already happened many centuries ago? For example, just a few questions. Why was Polycarp burned at the stake in Rome but Anicetus survived for nearly a decade? What are the wages of sin? Can a religion that has been coupled with the power of the State remain pure? Just consider these things. To The King!

Parker wrote....................... We are in agreement. FresnoJoe, So, Joe, your understanding of salvation is that once you're saved, that nothing else is required? If I misunderstand, forgive me. However, the above scripture clearly refers to sins that are in the past. I know that a man is justified by faith, but what happens AFTER he's justified? What of Matthew 5:48 which says 'Be ye therefore perfect'.....i.e complete, without blemish?

Thank you Joe and Parker, Our discussion is leading to another question along the same line of thought.... "Then their salvation in the beginning is suspect. Just because you know the truth doesn't mean it is applied in one's life; thus no salvation in the first place. The question regards the popular doctrines of 'Once Saved Always Saved', and 'Saved by Faith Through Grace, Not Works, So that No Man can boast'. I'm not sure that either are correct doctrine. Parker's answer seems right. I think if you get saved, but don't apply the doctrine in your life, you're in trouble. And the Bible says that each man 'shall receive his works'(paraphrase), so that indicates to me that your Works do matter. Thoughts? TO THE KING!!!!!!!!!

FresnoJoe, Please consider the following.......

FresnoJoe, With respect, I apologize, I did not word my post well. I am not attempting to twist scripture in any way. Forgive me. Now, however, let us look at Daniel 12:2. And let us look at 1 Corinthians 15..... 51...............but we shall not all be changed. Now, he is speaking to the 'brethren'.......'brethren' are believers...... So, we see that Daniel says that MANY, NOT ALL, shall rise. Some to everlasting life, and SOME TO SHAME AND EVERLASTING CONTEMPT. So, who is it that make up the 'many' that 'shall awake'? And who are those that 'shall not all be changed'? Consider this, and study for yourself, don't listen to me. But consider, only those that are 'responsible', i.e. those that have heard the TRUTH, the Gospel, are to awake, and they will be judged according to their works................some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Just consider these things.

That is quite an interesting interpretation of scripture asecretchord. I have a few questions along that line. 1) On Judgement Day people 'in heaven get their new bodies back'. Do you mean to say that they receive their new bodies? Also, the scripture says that 'the dead in christ will rise first, some to life, and some to damnation.....so, how does that square? 2) Again, along the same lines, if Judgement Day is only for those left on earth, how does that square with the scripture I've noted above? I understand that your pastor is an adherent to the doctrine of Particular Judgement, but what scripture is that based on? Good talking with you.................To The King!

Sorry, tired this morning. It goes back to the idea of going straight to heaven. How do you get in heaven without being judged? Or, does 'going to be with the Lord' mean something other than going to heaven? Let us all seek earnestly for the truth.

HELP.....I'm not following the question..........what do you mean?

JamiLea, Yes, start with this.......................Daniel 12:2

Someone asked what my idea was. I believe, based on scripture, that when a Christian, or any person, dies, that they are dead, they know nothing. They will sleep until the Lord Jesus returns and then the dead in Christ shall rise, followed by the living believers, to be taken up and to be judged, and on that day some will face the second death, and some will be rewarded with immortality.

The owners of this board have stated the following: This would indicate that the doctrine followed here would be one of Particular Judgement. But what does Scripture say about that? I have heard since I was a very little boy the words 'absent from the body, and present with the Lord. However, when you look at the Scripture, this is what it actually says............... This is clearly different than what I've been taught. This is saying they wish to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. Just to be sure, I looked at the New King James................ Again, they would rather be absent with the body and present with the Lord,................I believe it is safe to say..........wouldn't we all!!! Just to check a third time, I looked at the New International Version............. Again..............prefer. This is quite different from what I have always been taught. Further, the bible states repeatedly that 'the dead know nothing', and 'the dead sleep'. So, how do we reconcile the two schools of thought, or is reconciliation even possible?