leoxiii

Maybe the formula of "just me and my Bible" doesn't work. Maybe that is never what Jesus intended.

correction: you can't show it....because it hasn't. Therefore, you are saying that God made a mistake in writing Ezekial That is one of the biggest fattest non-sequiturs I have ever seen. But, if the animal sacrifices for sin and guilt are not for me, who are they for?

This is called an ontological change. It would seem from what you are saying that (1). the Gospel is preached to us, (2). we give our intellectual assent to the Gospel, (3). we are saved. Is that correct? Are we saved because we give your intellectual assent to the Gospel that is preached to us? 1. The Holy Spirit convicts of our sin and our condition of not being saved. 2. Through the opening of our eyes, we agree that we are lost and need a Savior. 3. We ask Jesus to forgive our sins and accepting His blood to wash away our sins for salvation. 4. Jesus places His Spirit in us to help us in every way. 5. Through the working of the Holy Spirit, we become a new creation, having our minds renewed to be like Christs. 6. Through this process, we obey His guidance, which includes all the works we are to do in His will, including being baptized. 7. We continue the race until we are called home or Christ returns, which ever comes first. 8. When we are finally with him, in our new bodies, His work in us is completed and we know as we are known, that which was in part is done away with. This is a very rough outline, but you can see what I believe. Can the Holy Spirit convict those who are below the age of reason that they need to be saved? If they cannot understand, how would they know they need salvation? If you are asking if God can do anything, the answer is yes He can, but God know when the time is right. Strawman ... Not a strawman. John the Baptist and Jeremiah were enlightened in the womb. The children in the Temple were enlightened even as sucklings. There is much Biblical support for God making even infants aware of their need for a Saviour. Note Titus 2: 11 For the grace of God our Saviour hath appeared to all men; 12 Instructing us, that, denying ungodliness and worldly desires, we should live soberly, and justly, and godly in this world, 13 Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ "All men" here is clearly a reference to every human being. No minimun age requirement. Your argument constantly depends on the actions of the human being, not the actions of God. I believe that no one can have faith without God giving it to them, and God gives "that faith without which it is impossible to please God" to whomever He pleases, including those in the womb and suckling babes. And I have supplied the Scriptural proof for that belief.

And may you also be blessed!

No. I think you are making a boo-boo by preaching to others that animal sacrifices for sin and guilt will one day resume. I do not need to show you where in Ezekiel these things have already happened. They have. Christ is the fulfillment of the temple and the sacrifices. How is sacrificing an animal for my sins not a rejection of the finished work on the Cross? And Jesus breathed His last, saying, "It is finished..........but it will start up again one day." Nope. Uh-uh. Not buying it.

Please explain how "puts their faith" is not a work. Is putting our faith in the finished work on the Cross something we do of our own free will? Or is it something that God brings about in us?

This is called an ontological change. It would seem from what you are saying that (1). the Gospel is preached to us, (2). we give our intellectual assent to the Gospel, (3). we are saved. Is that correct? Are we saved because we give your intellectual assent to the Gospel that is preached to us? 1. The Holy Spirit convicts of our sin and our condition of not being saved. 2. Through the opening of our eyes, we agree that we are lost and need a Savior. 3. We ask Jesus to forgive our sins and accepting His blood to wash away our sins for salvation. 4. Jesus places His Spirit in us to help us in every way. 5. Through the working of the Holy Spirit, we become a new creation, having our minds renewed to be like Christs. 6. Through this process, we obey His guidance, which includes all the works we are to do in His will, including being baptized. 7. We continue the race until we are called home or Christ returns, which ever comes first. 8. When we are finally with him, in our new bodies, His work in us is completed and we know as we are known, that which was in part is done away with. This is a very rough outline, but you can see what I believe. Can the Holy Spirit convict those who are below the age of reason that they need to be saved?

Chapter and verse, please. Yes, they were saved prior to Pentecost, but that doesn't negate the fact they were indeed saved. And they were saved apart from baptism. They were saved under the Old Covenant. Can anyone be saved under the Old Covenant today?

This lie comes from the Sumerian tablets of creation. Where do you read that? According to the Sumerians, the god Anu created the human race --out of clay, no less! (Actually, several races. He discarded the first ones until he got it right.) Ever heard of Zacharia Stitchen? He 'translated' the Sumerian texts and has written several books that say the sumerians were seeded from 'those from heaven came'. For the most part its his work that has promoted this line of thinking. The "lie" is from Stitchen, not the Sumerians. Then you believe this? Believe what? The Sumerians believed that Anu was a god who created the human race. I know that is not true. Stitchen says that Anu was really a space-man who took monkey-men and made them into homo sapiens. I know that is also not true. The Sumerians did not believe that Anu was a space-man. That is the truth.

There is a third option. You are mistaken. or you! Yes, human error is the most dependable or me. But God gave me the use of reason, and that reason tells me that it is ridiculous to think that animals will be sacrificed for sin and guilt with "the Lamb of God Who takes a way the sins of the world" "slain from the foundation of the world" sitting right there watching. He also gave me the ability to read. If this isn't future, then when did it happen? I'm not asking why He would do this....I'm asking if it has happened already. What does your human "reasoning" say? The vision of Ezekiel is a composite of the temple which Herod would build, and Jesus, who is our Temple. It takes a vivid imagination to arrive at that conclusion and it isn't even "reasoned" because the contradictions are so numerous. No. All it takes is the knowledge that the animal sacrifices came to an end with the Crucifixion, and that the Levitical priesthood is now over forever. A study of the 7th chapter of Hebrews will make this clear.

They were all saved prior to Pentecost. Where does it say that Cornelius was saved before he was baptized? 46 For they heard them speaking with tongues, and magnifying God. 47 Then Peter answered: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost, as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Then they desired him to tarry with them some days. Why the command?

There is a third option. You are mistaken. or you! Yes, human error is the most dependable or me. But God gave me the use of reason, and that reason tells me that it is ridiculous to think that animals will be sacrificed for sin and guilt with "the Lamb of God Who takes a way the sins of the world" "slain from the foundation of the world" sitting right there watching. He also gave me the ability to read. If this isn't future, then when did it happen? I'm not asking why He would do this....I'm asking if it has happened already. What does your human "reasoning" say? The vision of Ezekiel is a composite of the temple which Herod would build, and Jesus, who is our Temple.

This lie comes from the Sumerian tablets of creation. Where do you read that? According to the Sumerians, the god Anu created the human race --out of clay, no less! (Actually, several races. He discarded the first ones until he got it right.) Ever heard of Zacharia Stitchen? He 'translated' the Sumerian texts and has written several books that say the sumerians were seeded from 'those from heaven came'. For the most part its his work that has promoted this line of thinking. The "lie" is from Stitchen, not the Sumerians.

There is a third option. You are mistaken. or you! Yes, human error is the most dependable or me. But God gave me the use of reason, and that reason tells me that it is ridiculous to think that animals will be sacrificed for sin and guilt with "the Lamb of God Who takes a way the sins of the world" "slain from the foundation of the world" sitting right there watching.

But that does not mean that the Apostles were not in error at any other time. That is my point. Peter had to be reprimanded by Paul. Paul held a bitter grudge for some time against John Mark. Everything they wrote in Scripture is without error, but that does not mean that writings or sermons they preached, for which we do not have record of were free of error. This is the crux of the point I have been trying to make. 1). God commanded the Apostles to preach. 2). God (i) sent the Holy Spirit to ensure they would be led into all truth (ii) promised them He would be with them (iii) confirmed their preaching with signs (iv) opened their minds to a complete understanding of the Scriptures (v) commanded those who heard their preaching to believe what they heard, Yet 3). The Apostles nonetheless preached error. That is absolutely unacceptable. Not only that, but it is unfathomable to me how you can come to such a conclusion.

Actually there is but one baptism

The problem is that I don't have "all truth" yet. The Holy Spirit guides us, corporately and individually, but that does not preclude us from being in error about things the Holy Spirit has not illuminated to us. The Bible does not promise that we can or will know the entire compendium of truth in this lifetime. Sorry, but you need to read the Bible. 1 John 2:27 And as for you, let the unction, which you have received from him, abide in you. And you have no need that any man teach you; but as his unction teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie. And as it hath taught you, abide in him. So, where does the Bible say we cannot or will not know the entire compendium of truth in this lifetime? If you were to know all truth, you would be omniscient, which would make you divine. The only person who knows all the truth that exists is God. The context of verse you are quoting (more like ripping from its context), is that the Holy Spirit teaching them all things pertinant to salvation. It is not saying we will know all things that can be known. Taken context, this passage does not promise that we will know all truth in this lifetime. No one is infallible, and the Bible makes no promise that we will be infallible in this life. Then, will we know all truth (share in God's omniscience) in the next life? When will we know all truth? I don't think "all truth" has the same meaning that you are infusing it with. We will never be omniscient, so "all truth" does not mean that we will ever attain to the absolute qualities God possesses. I prefer not to take a hyper literal approach to what the Bible says. "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth ; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak ; and He will disclose to you what is to come. (John 16:13) Jesus clarifies what He means by "all the truth." It does not mean all truth that exists in the universe, but all truth necessary to our walk as Christians, necessary to the work we have to do. I was never trying to imply that "all truth" means being omniscient. But surely Jesus meant that we should be given "all truth" of the Gospel. If, then, "His unction teacheth you all things" concerning the Gospel, how can our preaching be a mixture of truth and error? Jesus commanded the Apostles to preach, and then He commanded those who heard their preaching to believe what they heard. Surely the Apostles were protected by the Holy Spirit from preaching any error? For how could Jesus command anyone to believe error?

The Early Fathers debated over the days of creation. Saint Augustine questioned the first 3 days, wondering "what kind of days they might have been" having no sun or moon. He was also of the mind that God could just have well created everything simultaneously, and that the 6 days were really six lessons on God's creative powers. Others took the stance that since a day was like a thousand years to the Lord, that the days of creation were 6 thousand years. That same school of thought also contended that since God told Adam he would die on that day, and Adam lived to 960 years old, then that "day" was actually a thousand years. They also contended that since Jesus was born at the start of the 4th millenium, the world would end after the end of the 6th millenium, and that the 7th millenium would be the millenial reign of Christ. Actually, I really like the 6 days = 6,000 years one, and the end of the world at the end of the 6th millenium. There is a kind of symmetry to it, and I have OCD when it comes to symmetry. But I accept the plain words of Scripture that the days of Genesis are actual 24 hour days. No serious Hebrew scholar would ever concede that those days could be anything else, for the sacred author of Genesis used very precise terminology so there would be no mistaking Him. As to Christians who become trained in the sciences, if they become theistic evolutionists they have not lost their faith entirely, but they are certainly walking on the edge of a knife. If all man did was fall from the trees, then the work of Christ on the Cross becomes somewhat gratuitous and superfluous. That real men existed before Adam is incompatible with Christianity. That real men existed after Adam who were not descendants of Adam, is also incompatible with Christianity. That Adam and Eve symbolize many parents (polygenism) is also incompatible with Christianity. That the first woman was not miraculously taken from the side of the first man is also incompatible with Christianity. That spirit and soul are epiphenomenons of matter is also incompatible with Christianity. That does not leave a lot of wiggle-room for theistic evolution.

The problem is that I don't have "all truth" yet. The Holy Spirit guides us, corporately and individually, but that does not preclude us from being in error about things the Holy Spirit has not illuminated to us. The Bible does not promise that we can or will know the entire compendium of truth in this lifetime. Sorry, but you need to read the Bible. 1 John 2:27 And as for you, let the unction, which you have received from him, abide in you. And you have no need that any man teach you; but as his unction teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie. And as it hath taught you, abide in him. So, where does the Bible say we cannot or will not know the entire compendium of truth in this lifetime? If you were to know all truth, you would be omniscient, which would make you divine. The only person who knows all the truth that exists is God. The context of verse you are quoting (more like ripping from its context), is that the Holy Spirit teaching them all things pertinant to salvation. It is not saying we will know all things that can be known. Taken context, this passage does not promise that we will know all truth in this lifetime. No one is infallible, and the Bible makes no promise that we will be infallible in this life. Then, will we know all truth (share in God's omniscience) in the next life? When will we know all truth?

This is called an ontological change. It would seem from what you are saying that (1). the Gospel is preached to us, (2). we give our intellectual assent to the Gospel, (3). we are saved. Is that correct? Are we saved because we give your intellectual assent to the Gospel that is preached to us?

Can Scripture contradict Scripture?

I am a firm believer in Infant Baptism because of the incidences in Scripture where babies are given the Gift of Faith -- even those in the womb like Jeremiah and John the Baptist. Therefore, #4 should read: I do not believe that Faith/Belief is entirely the assent of our own intellect. Otherwise, that would be us doing a work that brings about our salvation, and I utterly reject salvation by works. Faith/Belief is a freely given gift that God bestows upon all those whom He has predestined to eternal life. The assent of the intellect is only required of those who are capable of assent. But in no way is us giving the assent of our intellect the actual means by which God saves us.

This lie comes from the Sumerian tablets of creation. Where do you read that? According to the Sumerians, the god Anu created the human race --out of clay, no less! (Actually, several races. He discarded the first ones until he got it right.)

I really don't know what you are driving at here, or what sort of answer you expect...it is a peculiar application of Scripture, and you seem to be looking for an answer to something that was never intended to be demonstrated in the first place by using this one section of Scripture this way. Let us be led by the Spirit...but we are human with all our sins and faults....and we don't see the whole picture clearly, and therefore make mistakes, and even convince ourselves that the Holy Spirit has endorsed our actions...when it is evident that He hasn't. Sin, the flesh and the Devil....contribute at times to us not heeding the Spirit of G-d. I am just trying to understand how you interpret that verse of Scripture. You seem to be saying that while the Holy Spirit does indeed lead us into all truth, we are not capable of being led into all truth. Is that correct? No...what I am suggesting is that the emphasis you are trying to put on the function of the Spirit of Truth is not what that passage is driving at. It appears to me you are trying to touch on the idea of human infallibility in the light of a person being led by the Spirit...but none of us could sustain such expectancy, and that is not what the Scripture is implying....He guides us and directs us...just like the L-rd did with His followers...but that still leaves room for mistakes. Part of our safety net is the Body...and the Scriptures. My friend, can we not just discuss this passage without any notion of pre-conceived ideas? The passage clearly says that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. What is there in the Scriptures themselves that convinces you the Holy Spirit does not lead us into all truth?