The Journey

St John, Nice post and great clarification. Yes, Jesus did heal. Signs and wonders always accompanied new revelation. Its how God validates the message. On the Boards we have seen the problem when there are no signs and wonders. We have had "members" post what they claimed was God giving new revelation. But there was no validation. God chose signs and wonders to validate the new revelation. Hebrews 13:8 is often quoted to justify faith healing and other doctrines. Here is that verse in context from the NLT: "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. So do not be attracted by strange, new ideas. Your spiritual strength comes from God's special favor, not from ceremonial rules about food, which don't help those who follow them." A central issue that had developed in the early church was what to do with all the dirty Gentiles who were now worshipping in the synagogues. Many of the believing Jews began preaching a new gospel where faith and adherence to the law were necessary for salvation. Paul was reasurring his readers that nothing had changed in the gospel. Grace was the foundation of our covenant not law. Some jewish believers may have changed the message but Jesus had not changed. This verse does not mean that somehow Jesus can never use His tools differently as the Church ages unfold. The Master's mission certainly changed as He first offered the Kingdom to the Jews and they rejected Him. The Body of Christ was then born on the day of Pentecost. So Jesus dealt differently with His people at different times according to His plan. To somehow put Christ in a box and demand he continue to heal and feed the masses with loaves and fishes is to read ones own private interpretation into Hebrews 13:8. - Steve

St. John, This is very easy theology. Sin=death and disease. Sarx=flesh=part of this sinful broken diseased world under the curse of God. Ergo.....you stop sinning....you stop dying...you would have no sarx and would live forever as Adam and Eve in the garden. Did Christ bear our disease on the cross. Yes, he bore our sins...disease..death on the cross. But our redemption is not complete. Let me state that again, our redemption is not complete! Will will be redeemed from sin, death and disease. His body was the cost and the Holy Spirit is the guarantee. But it has not happended yet. This sarx is not the final summation of God's wonderful plan. It puzzles me why some would want so many treasures here on the Earth. End of soteriology 101. - Steve

Tiggr, I looked through the thread and couldn't find the name calling. Can you point it out? - Steve

Son, Exactly where are these original writings in English? - Steve

OneAccord, I am sorta ashamed to admit it but I got involved with a deliverance ministry when I was a bit younger and wanted to cast out demons just like Bob Larsen on the radio. I wanted to live fast and quick with demons and angels everywhere like a Frank Peretti novel. Well, I bought books, attended seminars, etc etc..but it really began to bother me. All the stuff that Mike Warnke and others were teaching about spiritual battle...was not in the Bible. Certainly it was based on things in the Bible but so much had just been filled in by the experiences of the demon chasers. We saw demons in everything. We did the "Jericho" on a Church once before a revival. We were routing demons and having visions and and and...well not. We had been deceived. We rode around clueless to the real battle much like Don Quiote chasing windmills. When you really reall really want to see the supernatural your brain will help out a lot. But its all the deception of prideful flesh. So I got out and found that servanthood is where the real power is at. Want Power? Grab a towel. - Steve PS Hmmm now lookign back can you believe how far Larsen and Warnke have fallen. I bet most don't even remember Mike Warnke...but his lies formed the foundation for what many still believe and teach today. Funny how many who believe they are actively fighting the deceiver....are themselves deceived. Hmmmm ponder that one a while.

Yes the cross redeems us from sin, death and disease. But we are still in flesh and we still sin. We still bear the consequences of being part of the broken dying world. Our redemption is past, present and future. I will pray that the Lord gives you clarity of thought and that he fills and empowers you with His Holy Spirit. I will seek the Lord's face that He would free you from this physical disease and that it would be a testimony bringing others into the Kingdom of Light! - Steve

Jake, Uuuhhh I wrote that the Greek word when translated would be immersion or identification. The word is used throughout Greek literature and is translated "identification." As you know Greek is a very vivid language. There is nothing more vivid than using a word that means to totally immerse yourself into another individual. Water immersion signified our total immersion into Christ...his death, burial and ressurection. Look at 1 Cor 10:2. The word should be"identified". Romans 6 and 1 Cor 12:13 should read "identification" and not baptism. The word "baptism" is not a translation. It is a transliteration creating a new word. SO if water immersion is so essential why didn't Paul baptize? - Steve

Tatie, Please do not take my posts as a post about death!! Its about LIFE!!! Its about healing from sin, death and disease!! I just think we need to understand the full message from the Word of God. Many want to control God. Make all kinds of demands and use Him like a rich daddy in the sky. With just the right words and acting like the perfect child maybe just maybe Daddy will do what we want. How different was the attitude of Christ. He taught us to pray focused on our servanthood to the Father and our brothers and sisters. Not on what I can get. I want I want I want. I want wealth. I want health. I want I want I want...OK now I demand I demand I demand. DO IT!!!! It just saddens the Master because none of these things bring fulfillment. Oh that the Church would stop all this foolishness and learn to store up treasures in heaven. We are all servants to the Master. We are tools. We must have the attitude that I want to be used by you Lord. If it must be in sickness then pour your Grace upon me and lets get to the business of the Kingdom. If its healing then pour out your Grace and lets get to the business of the Kindgom. Your will Father...not what I want but what you want. WOW!!! it seems revolutionary in todays ME ME ME Americanized Church. - Steve

Good Afternoon!! My own opinion after counseling many couples regarding infidelity is that you must be very wise. Wisdom would dictate that your wife should be your best friend. Warning lights should flash if you say or do anything with a "friend" that you cannot go home and tell your wife/husband about. You must walk very carefully in your friendships with the opposite sex. Attraction happens slowly and then there is a little flirting and then a little touching and....well you end up in bad situation. It can happen to anyone who is not choosing to make wise decisions. The "urge to merge" is incredibly powerful and can wear down even the most solid of convictions over time. For specific wisdom I usually counsel using Proverbs chapter 5. Solomon was very specific regarding the fulfillment both emotionally and physically that was to come from your spouse. - Steve

godrulz, "In cultural context" is a meaningless statement. The context of the passage is clear. "I went forth at church in proxy" is not Biblical. Tatie, I am a physician. I hear and understand your fear. Having faced both disease and my wife needing emergency surgery its terrifying not having the answers. But I would not rely upon any magical formulas. God's grace is free. Grace is God's favor and He gives it liberally to all freely. God favors and loves you as much as His own Son. There is nothing you need do in an attempt to get His attention. You have His attention. In my practice I have walked to the end with some glorious warriors of the faith. God's grace was sufficient, no matter what His ultimate answer was to their prayers. I would strongly recommend that you get a good...and preferably Christian Family Physician or Internist that can pray and guide you through your next steps. I completely agree with the advice previously given regarding nutrition. Your physician can help guide you as you make these life changes. The Lord may use physicians and nurses to work with your body in healing. This too is a miracle that we should all consider precious. This world is a broken place where our weaknesses only grow stronger as our flesh begins to break down. The good news for us all is that these fleshly, earthly bodies are not our futures!!! We will be free from the stain of sin!! We will be free from death, decay and disease!!! We will walk in the freedom from sin, death and disease because the cross purchased that freedom for us!!! "Our earthly bodies, which die and decay, will be different when they are resurrected, for they will never die. Our bodies now disappoint us, but when they are raised, they will be full of glory. They are weak now, but when they are raised, they will be full of power. They are natural human bodies now, but when they are raised, they will be spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, so also there are spiritual bodies." 1 Corinthians 15:42-44. "Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will give us later. For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. Against its will, everything on earth was subjected to God's curse. All creation anticipates the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay. For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. And even we Christians, although we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, also groan to be released from pain and suffering. We, too, wait anxiously for that day when God will give us our full rights as his children, including the new bodies he has promised us. Now that we are saved, we eagerly look forward to this freedom. For if you already have something, you don't need to hope for it. But if we look forward to something we don't have yet, we must wait patiently and confidently." Romans 8:18-25 We will be free from sin, death, pain and disease!! Until our complete redemption we must stand on His promises and feel the power of His grace. The miracle is sometimes not a flashy external manifestation that we all so desperately seek. Sometimes its that silent whisper that "My grace is sufficient for you" as we take the Lord's hand and walk through those mundane details of daily life that ultimately give true meaning and happiness. Tatie, take a few moments to look at that website listed at the bottom of my post. - Steve

I think we may be victims of the KJV confusion regarding these words of Paul. Here is the same passage in the NLT. "For every time you eat this bread and drink this cup, you are announcing the Lord's death until he comes again. So if anyone eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord unworthily, that person is guilty of sinning against the body and the blood of the Lord. That is why you should examine yourself before eating the bread and drinking from the cup. For if you eat the bread or drink the cup unworthily, not honoring the body of Christ, you are eating and drinking God's judgment upon yourself. That is why many of you are weak and sick and some have even died. But if we examine ourselves, we will not be examined by God and judged in this way." The Eucharist had been turned into a party. Eating, drinking and debauchery. The Lord passed judgement on the Corinthian Church because they were playing marbles with diamonds. But this is not a mystic recipe for eternal life. - Steve

jesusislord, I would strongly recommend that you read the book The Covering by Hank Hanegraaff. I always wonder why Ephesians 6:10-12 is so popular but almost no one talks about the rest of the verse. I guess its because the weapons the Apostle lists are not flashy like the "jericho" and exorcism. "Yet these false teachers, who claim authority from their dreams, live immoral lives, defy authority, and scoff at the power of the glorious ones. But even Michael, one of the mightiest of the angels, did not dare accuse Satan of blasphemy, but simply said, "The Lord rebuke you." (This took place when Michael was arguing with Satan about Moses' body.) But these people mock and curse the things they do not understand. "Jude 1:8 "But the angels, even though they are far greater in power and strength than these false teachers, never speak out disrespectfully against the glorious ones."2 Peter 2:11 There is a lot that we are no told in Scripture about the angels and demons. God chose to not reveal much. Many have simply filled in the gaps using anecdotal stories and Hollywood. The danger here is twofold. One is that we may be chasing the wind and fighting shadows. The other is that by blaspheming and railing against the demons we are involved in things that are not our business. There is error in both denying that the spiritual world exists and in finding a demon in every shadow and under every rock. - Steve

OneAccord, PBA is a brutal act of infanticide. It is now illegal. Where is the political issue here? Both pro life and pro abortion elected officials voted to make it against the law. Clinton vetoed the law. Bush signed it into law. Where is the bashing of the left? Its cut and dry. Where is the bashing of the left over gay rights? We have pastors in predominantly black churches calling Bush "Satan" and an "Abomination." These are the same Churches that welcome Clinton and those who would further the slaughter of the unborn. What is wrong with these Churches? WHere was the left in condemning Clinton's abuse of women? This is not politics it is evil. WHere was the left during the Clinton years? The Christian right bashes Bush. The left bashes Bush. The left were willing to support Clinton no matter how wicked things got in the White House. I don't expect Christians to do the same for Bush but our issues against him are really petty. "Globalization"? What exactly is evil about globalization? Talk about helping third world countries. Globalization pours money into underdeveloped nations. Only the wealthy countries have citizens that do not support a global economic community. OneAccord, where was Clinton on the epidemic of AIDS in Africa? Just ask Bono if you want to know where Bush stands. Here was Bono a darling of the liberal left. He spent hours alone with Bush discussing life, faith and world issues. He leaves the meeting floored by the depth of the man. I mean Bono has done nothing but tour the world praising Bush as a deep man of faith. He found Bush to be genuine and deeply dedicated to the poor and suffering of the US and the world. Bush has used the Presidency to focus both attention and money on one of the worst scourages of the 20th century. WHere is the left in support of the President. Nothing but criticism and wishful thinking that somehow he will fail. Amazing. Truly amazing. - Steve

Without rehashing the Clinton years you really think this is a fair comparison? Why is it that Christians would defend Clinton and bash Bush so harshly? Clinton had sex with a teenage intern in the oval office. He then treated her like trash to be discarded. This is the way Clinton saw people. To be objects that are manipulated and used to further His legacy. Bush has refused repeatidly to let the Presidency be used for his personal ego. He refuses to have the "legacy" picture taken of the President staring thoughtfully out of the oval office window. Have any of you read the articles about Bush in US News & World Report? Clinton ran Air Force One like it was his personal pleasure barge. Alcohol, dirty movies, drunkeness that characterized the Clinton years. Clinton assaulted an 18 year old Airman on Air Force One that later he apologized for. Please get the previous US News issue. Bush has no alcohol or tobacco on Air Force One. He runs and works out during flights. Its all about the office. Its bigger than any one man. - Steve

Endure, So you are a member of the Churches of Christ. One point for anyone studying baptism is to realize that the word "baptism" is not a translation. The word translated would mean "immersion" or "identification." The word "baptism" was created by the KJV translators because the Church of England uses sprinkling and not immersion. It was a matter of self preservation as King James would have had them put to death for a translation that contradicted Church doctrine. For those who believe that we must do something to be saved it follows that we could not do something and lose our salvation. Thus E4S screen name (we must endure to keep ourselves saved). The opposite view is that we were chosen for salvation and both faith and salvation are gifts of God. Thus, salvation is not a matter of any act of obedience including baptism or the Eucharist. - Steve

A child tells an adult that Jackson molested him. And Jackson is the victim? I think we need to grow up and get over hero worship. He is innocent until proven guilty. But to consider him a victim because the police are doing their jobs is a bit much. - Steve

I think it's just human nature to fight your point of view tooth and nail. You could go to any discussion board and find examples of similar conduct somewhere. And for some odd reason, the two subjects that get people on edge the most are politics and religion. The only way, really, to deal with this problem on message boards is for the moderators to hold a heavy stick with them and keep people in line. But what we as Christians need is both instruction in debate (how to debate effectively, efficiently, properly, etc) and also more teacing on appropriate speech and behavior (not just the "You should do's" but also the "how to do's"). We don't have enough "How to do's" sermons and teachings, I don't think. And it is amazing just how few people there are (Christian and non-Christian) who know how to properly debate an issue. Nebula, You are exactly right!! So many have thin skin and very poor debating skills. I suggest the University of Texas Debate Forum for those who want to see what true debate and intolerance is about. You quickly develop thicker skin and a faster wit. You also learn that the spirit of the age is not Benny, once saved always saved or KJV-onlyism...the battle lines are drawn over the issue of Truth. Does Truth exist? If you have never thought through your presuppositions then you are a sitting duck. I have seen brothers and sisters reduced to sobbing tears so bad that had to be carried away. Finally I think many take this Board too seriously. This is not Church. My relationships on the internet are with a keyboard and a glowing monitor. Not a personal give and take with another human being that examines my life daily to see if I am genuine. Basically, we really know nothing about our fellow Board members. We should take the threads and posts with a sense of humor and irony. Like Steve Taylor sings, "Since I Gave Up Hope I Feel Much Better." Drop the notions that the internet and chat Boards are God's mission to you for soul conversion. Get out there are start living in the real world. - Steve

Well whomever we choose we must love them both. Remember, to be nice today and not be angry or judgmental no matter what you see or hear. If you should by accident watch Benny Hinn be sure to not judge. If he speaks a word of heresy remember you have faults too. :il: :il: :il: :il: :il: - :il: Loving "Veteran Member" Steve

WOoooooaaahh, I just realized I passed 500 posts!!! Now I am a veteran member. I guess I will have to settle down a bit and start posting niceties. I'll go get a book on Saying Nice Things or Nothing at All at Books-a-Million today so I can start living up to my new veteran responsibilities. Funny thing is that I have been on this board almost a year. I think VOG made veteran in like 4 days. Looks like St. John is trying to break his record. - Steve

Well I would really think through the issues before I pull that lever. Vote your conscience...but know that voting your conscience may place you in the even worse position of griping about that godless President Dean. It seems that a lot of the religious right quite readily check their brains at the voting booth door. Unable to understand the intricacies of politics we expect our leaders to walk a path no viable politician could ever take. Thus, we get godless Presidents like Clinton and the future Dean. Do you think Dean would have signed a bill banning partial birth abortion? Do you really think Dean would do a better job in defending this nation against terror? Because we can't have it all we will take nothing. Just like the spoiled brat on the playground who takes his toys and goes home. America is not a theocracy yet we expect President Bush to act like it is. - Steve P.S. Hmmmmm being a Nascarat. I like the sound of that. The Nascar vote has replaced the mindless soccer mom vote. I for one thought the change was long overdue.

Look we should all be praying for our leaders. Let me fill you in on a little secret. President Bush is not sitting at the White House right now fretting over his position on homosexuality. The President has hundreds of briefings a day. Calls hundreds of US/world leaders. Signs hundreds of letters/Bills/executive orders. His day is worked out down to the minute. The Presidency is so large that mosts issues George Bush will never be briefed on them. The position is more than any one man can shoulder. I would suggest all the "arm chair" presidents out there to go and run for public office. Run for city government. Even a job like small town mayor is filled with thousands of small details that easily turn into big time public relations issues. - Steve PS I am not a republican. And certainly I am not a democrat.

The sad thing is the anger this man gets from both the far right and the far left. Both hate him and see him as tryng to destroy the world. Bush has the support of the red part of the country a.k.a. Nascar voters who don't care about this kind of garbage. At least Clinton had the undying devotion of the far left. - Steve

Its great that the Lord shares with the Church prophets today what even Jesus said the Father would not reveal to Him!! Such sand I don't know where to stand. (Hmmm maybe I should send that line to Steve Camp..sounds like a great chorus for a song). - Steve