Permie

I am not looking for anything more then to understand what you are saying. I agree. We should never go against His leading when dealing with another. Yet, I have to wonder why it was that He allowed me to notice a sin if it were not to speak the truth to them. It may not be right then and there. He may still have more to show me, or wisdom to bestow upon me, but He never reveals anything without a purpose. One need to seek and understand what the purpose is. It may very well be that He is leading another to speak to a person who sins, and is preparing me to be the second or third witness. Only He knows the correct way to deal with any situation, and if we are paying attention, He may reveal it to us. "Noticing a sin"... could that be roundabout way of saying that something in particular was "revealed"? Otherwise, I don't know how difficult it is to see sin. Yes, I used the word twice after, but forgot to rewrite the first incident. I agree. He moves and only reveals the secrets of another when He needs us to obey. I am sure there are other reasons why He would reveal the sin of someone, for the protection of another as one example. A person may be in charge of the church treasury and an accountant thief. That is why it is so relevant and important to listen, understand and obey. In such a situation of the example given, I would go immediately to whom would be the most hurt, which is often the same person whom gave such an individual their job.

Yes, there's that too. Seeing after the fact. I know that when I have been a bit undisciplined in watching my thoughts, and not engaging in prayer as much as possible... even to the extent of praying without ceasing... that I would indeed need to be very careful. I've come to recognize God, His power, His workings... I prefer to wait on the Lord and during that waiting, yes, He can still use and work through us, which can be seen after the fact.

I am not looking for anything more then to understand what you are saying. I agree. We should never go against His leading when dealing with another. Yet, I have to wonder why it was that He allowed me to notice a sin if it were not to speak the truth to them. It may not be right then and there. He may still have more to show me, or wisdom to bestow upon me, but He never reveals anything without a purpose. One need to seek and understand what the purpose is. It may very well be that He is leading another to speak to a person who sins, and is preparing me to be the second or third witness. Only He knows the correct way to deal with any situation, and if we are paying attention, He may reveal it to us. "Noticing a sin"... could that be roundabout way of saying that something in particular was "revealed"? Otherwise, I don't know how difficult it is to see sin. I too have had such revelations. If this is what you are talking about, I believe that this is done so that you are aware of what it is that is being dealt with. With this knowledge, future interactions can be geared towards that specifically while also staying within guidelines as provided by scripture, such as shown in post #128. As always, there are exceptions. There are individuals whom are sufficiently humble whom can be outright instructed: Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning. Proverbs 9:9 If you are unsure of how to proceed, I'd engage in more prayer. For myself, I can tell when God is moving me. And, perhaps this is what is to be waited on in your particular situation?

OneLight, What was inadequate in my original response, post #122, to your question? What more are you looking for? I obey what is instructed as a result of the prayer prayed. The result can be and most often is instantaneously life changing. Other times, however, the appropriate response does not yield such quick results, such as "being a living example" would take time. I do not wish to find out what not obeying what was instructed would yield. I can imagine though that for a person whom needs a living example to be instructed in the ways of the Lord, that if I decided I knew better than God and took a different tack and decided to speak to that person, I could totally cause that person to run. On the other hand, if I decided to not speak the words the Lord gave me to speak to someone, and thought it better to be a living example instead, what do you suppose the result of that would be? Besides, the obvious of God finding someone else whom is obedient to work through?

There's sin as we have discussed: intentional, then there's errors, and then there's ignorance. Generally, I would place error and ignorance in the same category. We cannot fault ignorance. We have all been ignorant at one point or another about something. So, yes, we would show them love. Telling people that they are wrong, in those words, I have found not to be helpful. Patience and love is the route to go. Plus, those other virtues I posted earlier about which against there is no law are required in our efforts. (That post would then stand in it's entirety.) That is what I said, in love, not thumping them with scripture. If you are talking about Galatians 5:22-23, then I agree, they are the fruit of the Spirit. If that is not what you are referring to, which post are you talking about? I am referring to Post #128, wherein the verses from Galatians were posted.

Ha! Said I was tired! That's the verse you quoted earlier in the thread! (Was that before or after I went to bed?) Anyway you had asked: There's sin as we have discussed: intentional, then there's errors, and then there's ignorance. Generally, I would place error and ignorance in the same category. We cannot fault ignorance. We have all been ignorant at one point or another about something. So, yes, we would show them love. Telling people that they are wrong, in those words, I have found not to be helpful. Patience and love is the route to go. Plus, those other virtues I posted earlier about which against there is no law are required in our efforts. (That post would then stand in it's entirety.)

Oh, you're talking about bringing those who do not know Jesus to Him? Not necessarily bringing someone who has known Jesus, but has turned back; what is often called back-sliding? If you mean the unsaved, yes, I've spoken with a number of atheists who have come to believe. The lost too have been given the hope of Christ. Lives have been changed... wonderful to witness as well as to watch their growth in Christ. Praise God! I guess the common term of backsliding could be used, but it is not scriptural, just a label someone came up with. Scripture reads "if anyone among you wanders from the truth", which to me means that someone, another christian, has wondered from the truth, not fallen from grace. I just did a quick New Testament search using the words: wanders truth, and didn't find anything. Hmmm, let me check another version. Still nothing. What version do you use? I recall a verse that says: Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:20. Is that the one you are referring to?

Oh, you're talking about bringing those who do not know Jesus to Him? Not necessarily bringing someone who has known Jesus, but has turned back; what is often called back-sliding? If you mean the unsaved, yes, I've spoken with a number of atheists who have come to believe. The lost too have been given the hope of Christ. Lives have been changed... wonderful to witness as well as to watch their growth in Christ. Praise God!

Amen;; It's pretty hard to be around Him and listen to Him reprove you, no matter how gentle and not be aware that we are indeed a work in progress. That is should be a very good reason for us to forgive others. Amen and Amen! Yes, others too are a work in progress! If we are overly concerned with what another's sins might be we are failing to "work out our own salvation" and ignoring what our "own beam in our own eye is". (References to: Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Matthew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.) Yes, we are to constantly be in check, but what do you do if you see a brother or sister sin? Are we to ignore them because we are not perfect or are we to show them love and tell them that what they are doing is wrong? It depends. I always pray first. Different answers come for the appropriate response for that individual. Sometimes the answer is to be a living example. Yes, it is wise to seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but James tells us of the importance of turning someone back. James 5:19-20 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. It has been my experience that those who have corrected me personally, I have learned from, respected more and even became closer for they showed me enough love to become involved. They did not so this by bashing me with scripture, but in the love of Christ. They showed patience, gentleness, and empathy (to a point). I think that we are essentially saying the same thing. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23 That's not to say that there are times when a specific behavior must be shown to be known to exist, such as, but not limited to: manipulating, haughtiness, game playing, and lying that prevents a beneficial relationship. The key is to not return evil for evil... that which is known as resisting evil. (Matthew 5:38-39 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.)

Friends, I must take myself to bed. Another big day of activities is before me tomorrow and the day after that as well. Almost too tired to budge right now as it is, lol. Praise the Lord! I am grateful. Good night, and may you all rest well and be totally restored!

I think we try to help those, and especially brothers in the Lord right. In Matthew it has a kind of procedure. Talking to them, taking someone else along, then then bring it to the attention of the church. Paul even seem to turn them over to the devil so that they might come to a realization. And prayer does work doesn't it? Gotta be careful when turning someone over to Satan.

Amen;; It's pretty hard to be around Him and listen to Him reprove you, no matter how gentle and not be aware that we are indeed a work in progress. That is should be a very good reason for us to forgive others. Amen and Amen! Yes, others too are a work in progress! If we are overly concerned with what another's sins might be we are failing to "work out our own salvation" and ignoring what our "own beam in our own eye is". (References to: Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Matthew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.) Yes, we are to constantly be in check, but what do you do if you see a brother or sister sin? Are we to ignore them because we are not perfect or are we to show them love and tell them that what they are doing is wrong? It depends. I always pray first. Different answers come for the appropriate response for that individual. Sometimes the answer is to be a living example.

Yes, to whom is given much, much is required. Restraining our actions have merit, but if the thought persists, it can brew. It is, imo, best to train our mind to dismiss those temptations. Using the word as Jesus did while being tempted, and scripture tells us that He was tempted in ALL things*, is very effective. For us, I believe that if we continually train our mind with scripture that those thoughts that lead to error will flee and leave forever. (*Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.) Error flees from the Light that is contained in the Word. We are instructed to "put on the armour of God", it doesn't just jump on us by it's self. (Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.) Just as we are patient with others, we too should be patient and kind towards ourselves too and never forget that Jesus is our High Priest and makes intercessory prayer for us on our behalf*. Thank you, so much, Jesus. (*I can't find the scripture for that right off, but it's in there somewhere.)

Amen;; It's pretty hard to be around Him and listen to Him reprove you, no matter how gentle and not be aware that we are indeed a work in progress. That is should be a very good reason for us to forgive others. Amen and Amen! Yes, others too are a work in progress! If we are overly concerned with what another's sins might be we are failing to "work out our own salvation" and ignoring what our "own beam in our own eye is". (References to: Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Matthew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.)

Paul mentioned that he took all thoughts captive to Jesus Christ. This I find amazing. Not that I doubt that he did, but when trying this, I find it virtually impossible. It I am able to take all my thoughts to Jesus Christ for a 15 minute strecth, that is doing pretty good for me. Maybe I can go an hour here or there, but it always seem like I get distracted. So mostly what I try to do is to remember to keep turning back to Him through out the day. Maybe each hour I can get myself to turn back, talk to Him. Check on what thoughts are going through my head. Get a few answers on how I am doing, and if I'm going the right direction. Seriously, is anyone here getting that close to Paul as to taking every thought captive to Him. Just asking?? I have that particular verse written out and is on my refrigerator, along with: Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. I do monitor my thoughts. Aware of each one that comes. If they don't line up with the above, I change them usually through the use of praising God. But sometimes I can't yet get to praise first and have to think of what is true, and then the praise progresses from there. All thoughts can be taken captive. We just have to be aware. Actions follow thoughts don't they?

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28 If I do, and I am not suggesting that I don't, God will turn it to the good. As long as we are in these earthly tents we will be prone to error. We just don't have to be doing it willingly. Sins can be committed unintentionally. I just wanted to bring this question by LadyC and my response down here. Am I saying I am sinless? No. I am saying we can dwell in God, whom is love, and when we are called according to His purpose, then if a sin is done, that God will turn it to the good. This is why a sin cannot be committed... even though an error has been committed. I don't know about anyone but me, but if I sin, it grieves me... greatly. It's like a stabbing piercing pain. I do not sin intentionally, and with God's help, will not sin intentionally. We all must monitor our thoughts, motives and intentions. Continual diligence is required as well as a willingness to self-discipline. Obedience is better than sacrifice. Now, this I can agree with. Yet, I call sin sin and error error. Sin is intentional and an error is done by mistake. Praise the Lord! Are you saying, then, that if we do not sin intentionally that we are sinless? No, I don't think you are saying that because we are still prone to error. It is when we refuse to learn from mistakes and continue to do that which we know is wrong that we dwell outside of love and fear motivates us to continue to sin. It is in this process that our love is perfected. That fear is cast out for fear is of the devil and not of God. As we continue to turn away from intentional sin, our love is perfected from glory to glory and become conformed to His image. (2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.)

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28 If I do, and I am not suggesting that I don't, God will turn it to the good. As long as we are in these earthly tents we will be prone to error. We just don't have to be doing it willingly. Sins can be committed unintentionally. I just wanted to bring this question by LadyC and my response down here. Am I saying I am sinless? No. I am saying we can dwell in God, whom is love, and when we are called according to His purpose, then if a sin is done, that God will turn it to the good. This is why a sin cannot be committed... even though an error has been committed. I don't know about anyone but me, but if I sin, it grieves me... greatly. It's like a stabbing piercing pain. I do not sin intentionally, and with God's help, will not sin intentionally. We all must monitor our thoughts, motives and intentions. Continual diligence is required as well as a willingness to self-discipline. Obedience is better than sacrifice.

Thank you, OneLight, for showing that the fearful are Christians. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8 I still maintain that "perfected love" casts out all fear. 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. Even though what you have posted is scripture, we must also realize that nobody is in perfect love while being here in this life. We still battle with all that is against God, including our own nature. Scripture tells us that we know in part until that which is perfect comes. To me, that which is perfect is the finished work of Christ in us, and this work will not be finished until we are with Him. 1 Corinthians 13 The Greatest Gift Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing. Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. The Lord's word is true. Yet, there is so much that we as individuals must reconcile. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Hebrews 9:28 While you will probably look up the above verse in context, do also think of this verse while doing so: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Romans 6:3 Do read down to at least verse 7 of Romans, and recall also that the bible says that the soul that sins dies. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4 With the love of Christ, Permie Sorry for the small font. .... to be honest, I cannot follow your train of thought. How does this tie into what you quoted or listening to the Holy Spirit? Okay, we/I were/was talking about these scriptures in regards to how there is no fear in perfected love. 16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. Then you replied with scripture that you were using to support the idea that no one is perfected in love until we were again with Christ. So I then gave you the scripture from Paul that states that there are some whom are baptized into Christ's death. There's the baptism of the Holy Spirit and then there is the baptism of being crucified into Christ, which Paul spoke about many times having had experienced it himself. Jesus also referred to it: 22But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. 23And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. Matthew 20:22-23 What do you suppose being crucified into Christ aka, also known as, being baptized with His baptism means and causes? Could it have anything to do with what He prayed for in the garden? (That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. John 17:21) Is that not being with the Lord? As an interesting side note, the entire chapter of John 17 is Jesus' prayer, and the NASB version indicates that it is the High Priestly Prayer. You say that "we battle with our own nature". That nature that sins, that is done battle against, it dies. The bible says so in Ezekiel, scripture previously posted, and then we have Romans, Chapter 6: 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 7For he that is dead is freed from sin. As you said: "that which is perfect is the finished work of Christ in us, and this work will not be finished until we are with Him." Jesus said: Let the dead bury the dead. (Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.) A person can be dead and walking around, and a person can be one with Christ and be walking around too. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. John 17:21 Being one with Christ, would that enable perfected love, wherein there is no fear that both John and Paul preached? You did well putting this together, but this is not what I believe. The perfect love, which is God, can not be fully accessed until we are with Him. Perfect love does not sin, and while we are here in this world, we do sin. To many, this is their wishful thinking, but there are too many scriptures that tell us that in this natural man, even though we strive to be like Christ, we can not be sinless. There is only one who was sinless in this world and He is now sitting at the right hand of the Father. Being baptized unto His death means that we are no longer following the natural man, but have risen with Him into a new man. IT does nto mean that we are Him, sinless. If Christians had to be sinless to get to heaven, nobody would make it, nobody. I agree. That's why the Law was replaced by grace. With grace, we can dwell in love. If we do this, dwell in God whom is love, we have no reason to fear: no reason to lie, no reason to steal: no reason to envy, and etc... we will trust God and give thanks for all things. (Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Ephesians 5:20). We will learn to be content in all things. (Philippians 4:11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.) Did you happen to see my reply to LadyC right above your post?

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28 If I do, and I am not suggesting that I don't, God will turn it to the good. As long as we are in these earthly tents we will be prone to error. We just don't have to be doing it willingly. Sins can be committed unintentionally.

I believe scripture. I believe Jesus. Jesus said: Go and sin no more. (John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.) The other scriptures that have been previously posted indicate the same thing. Those who lives in God does not sin: 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 1 John 3:8-10 And also: 16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 1 John 4:16-17 I believe scripture.

Please refer to my response to OneLight. oh, darn, i was hoping for a short answer so i wouldn't have an excuse for sitting here on the computer instead of cleaning the bedrooms Isn't it too late in the day to do that anyway? (Trying to help... )

Please refer to my response to OneLight.

Woohoo! I learn something new everyday! Thank you, Lady C! I can read the smaller fonts, it's just that my eyes get tired from the smaller font, which then becomes a strain and then the eyes get more and more tired.

Thank you, OneLight, for showing that the fearful are Christians. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8 I still maintain that "perfected love" casts out all fear. 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. Even though what you have posted is scripture, we must also realize that nobody is in perfect love while being here in this life. We still battle with all that is against God, including our own nature. Scripture tells us that we know in part until that which is perfect comes. To me, that which is perfect is the finished work of Christ in us, and this work will not be finished until we are with Him. 1 Corinthians 13 The Greatest Gift Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing. Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. The Lord's word is true. Yet, there is so much that we as individuals must reconcile. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Hebrews 9:28 While you will probably look up the above verse in context, do also think of this verse while doing so: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Romans 6:3 Do read down to at least verse 7 of Romans, and recall also that the bible says that the soul that sins dies. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4 With the love of Christ, Permie Sorry for the small font. .... to be honest, I cannot follow your train of thought. How does this tie into what you quoted or listening to the Holy Spirit? Okay, we/I were/was talking about these scriptures in regards to how there is no fear in perfected love. 16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. Then you replied with scripture that you were using to support the idea that no one is perfected in love until we were again with Christ. So I then gave you the scripture from Paul that states that there are some whom are baptized into Christ's death. There's the baptism of the Holy Spirit and then there is the baptism of being crucified into Christ, which Paul spoke about many times having had experienced it himself. Jesus also referred to it: 22But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. 23And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. Matthew 20:22-23 What do you suppose being crucified into Christ aka, also known as, being baptized with His baptism means and causes? Could it have anything to do with what He prayed for in the garden? (That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. John 17:21) Is that not being with the Lord? As an interesting side note, the entire chapter of John 17 is Jesus' prayer, and the NASB version indicates that it is the High Priestly Prayer. You say that "we battle with our own nature". That nature that sins, that is done battle against, it dies. The bible says so in Ezekiel, scripture previously posted, and then we have Romans, Chapter 6: 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 7For he that is dead is freed from sin. As you said: "that which is perfect is the finished work of Christ in us, and this work will not be finished until we are with Him." Jesus said: Let the dead bury the dead. (Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.) A person can be dead and walking around, and a person can be one with Christ and be walking around too. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. John 17:21 Being one with Christ, would that enable perfected love, wherein there is no fear that both John and Paul preached?

Thank you, OneLight, for showing that the fearful are Christians. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8 I still maintain that "perfected love" casts out all fear. 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. Even though what you have posted is scripture, we must also realize that nobody is in perfect love while being here in this life. We still battle with all that is against God, including our own nature. Scripture tells us that we know in part until that which is perfect comes. To me, that which is perfect is the finished work of Christ in us, and this work will not be finished until we are with Him. 1 Corinthians 13 The Greatest Gift Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing. Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. The Lord's word is true. Yet, there is so much that we as individuals must reconcile. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Hebrews 9:28 While you will probably look up the above verse in context, do also think of this verse while doing so: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Romans 6:3 Do read down to at least verse 7 of Romans, and recall also that the bible says that the soul that sins dies. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4 With the love of Christ, Permie Sorry for the small font.