rachel89

Hi, I

By the way, Nebula, the question you asked in the other thread where you are so angry with me over for not answering so quickly (sorry, I just had time to read it over now!)? Well, that's been answered in here already. Just check out the post I made right on the other page.

Nebual, If you are annoyed because I haven't replied yet to your post in the other thread, please be patient. I have chosen reply to this thread first because I thought it more important. Be patient. I will get to that one as soon as I can. As for your comments about proselytizing, I am simply presenting the truths of the Christ's Church these discussions.

OneLight, You have totally passed over all the points explaining why Peter is the rock. In all fairness, I ask you to disprove point by point the reasons given in my post above. At the very least, please explain your reasons (in light of what I posted) for denying those points. Nebula, I invite you to visit the web site and enrich your mind in the truths of Christ's teachings. You asked me where in Scripture. I gave you the passage.

In light of these facts, have you settled on the truth that Jesus made Peter the rock? Most Holy Family Monastery

First of all there are a lot of questions being asked here along with some serious issues being raised. I’m not ignoring yours if you don’t see an answer by me – I just think it would be fairer to settle the more important one first. Also, I would be happy to discuss these other issues separately in another thread or soap box, if you wish? I know you said you don’t have the time, Dave, but please consider making the time. Arthur, John chapter 21:15-17 provides more proof that Jesus entrusted all the members of His Church to Saint Peter. We see in John 21 that Jesus entrusts all of His sheep to Peter. The dogmatic First Vatican Council of the Catholic Church said that this moment in John 21, after the Resurrection of Jesus, was the moment that Jesus actually gave to Saint Peter the keys and the authority of His church which He had promised him in Matthew 16. It’s important to emphasize that this moment after the resurrection, in John 21, was the point at which Jesus made Peter the first pope. Arthur Durnan, this is significant when considering how you bring up Peter’s three-fold denial of Christ in John 18:25 and following. When Peter denied Christ it was before the Crucifixion and Resurrection. Jesus had not yet given Peter the authority as pope. The words in Matthew 16:18-20 promise the keys of the kingdom to St. Peter. They promise that Jesus would build His Church upon Him and make him the prime minister of His Church, but that office was not conferred upon Peter until after the Resurrection, by these words in John 21:15-17. Therefore, St. Peter’s denial of Christ poses no problem at all for Catholic teaching on the papacy. “And I say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church…” Arthur, The Greek word for “this” – as in this rock – is the demonstrative pronoun taute. It means “this very” rock or “this same” rock. Taute is used when “it is desired to call attention with special emphasis to a designated object, whether in the physical vicinity of the speaker or the literary context of the writer” (H.E. Dana and J.R. Mantey, A Manual Grammer of the Greek New Testament, 127). In the King James Version, taute is translated as “the same” in 1 Corinthians and “the same” in 2 Corinthians 9:4. Therefore Jesus’ statement to Peter has this meaning: thou art Peter and upon THIS VERY ROCK I will build my Church. From the context given, “this rock” naturally refers to Peter. It just so happens that Jesus also changes his name from Simon to a name which means rock. What about Petros Vs. Petra in the Greek? Protestants argue that Jesus couldn’t have been saying that Peter was the rock because of the differences in the Greek words. They point out that in the original Greek of Matthew 16:18 that, Peter’s name is petros which means “small stone”, while the word to denote rock is petra, which means “large rock”; but that slight distinction has already disappeared by the time Matthews Gospel was written in Greek. The minor distinction between petros and petra only exists in Attic Greek, not Koine Greek. The Gospel was written in Kione Greek, in which both petros and petra meant “rock.” Moreover, there was a word for stone which Jesus could have used. It is lithos. If Jesus wanted to call Peter a stone, but not the rock (petros), then He could have used lithos. But He did not. He used petros, which means rock. But if there is an equation between Peter and the rock, why, then, are two different Greek words used (petros and petra)? The answer is found in the very important fact that Jesus spoke in Aramaic, not in Greek. In Aramaic, Matthew 16:18 would say this: “You are Kepha and on this kepha I will build my Church.” Notice that in Aramaic the same word Kepha is used in both places. There is absolutely no difference between the two. Jesus was equating Simon and the rock upon which the Church would be built. The Protestant misunderstanding at this point comes in because when one translates the Aramaic which Jesus spoke into the Greek, the Aramaic word kepha becomes petra. Petra is the normal word for rock in Greek and it’s feminine. The fact that petra is feminine is no problem for the second part of the passage: upon this kepha (upon this rock): but petra obviously cannot be used for Peter’s new name because Peter is a man. Thus, in the Greek, Peter’s name is simply changed to Petros, a synonym for petra, but one which has a masculine ending. That’s the only reason there is any difference at all between the two words. There is no doubt that Jesus is declaring that Peter is the rock. In the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, a Protestant work edited by Protestants Gerhard Kittel and Gerhard Friedrich, there is an article by well-known Protestant Oscar Cullman which states: “But what does Jesus mean when He says: ‘On this rock I will build my Church’? The idea of the reformers that he is referring to the faith of Peter is quite inconceivable in view of the probably different setting of the story. For there is no reference here to the faith of Peter. Rather, the parallelism of “thou art Rock” and “on this Rock I will build” shows that the second rock is referring to the first. It is thus evident that Jesus is referring to Peter, to whom he is given the name Rock. He appoints Peter… to be the foundation of his Ecclesia. To this extent Roman Catholic exegesis and all attempts to evade this are to be rejected.” Most Holy Family Monastery

You are the one who needs to understand, rachel. The Catholic Church is not "THE" church. THE Church is made up of millions of people who have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. We can go to Him directly, we don't need a priest to grant us forgiveness. We don't worship idols, such as the Virgin Mary either. So lets not a discussion on the Catholic Church. They never go well and the threads always get closed. The Catholic Church is the true Church established by Jesus Christ. You must become part of His Church to be saved. It is Christ who instituted the priesthood. Confession to a priest is taught in the Bible. The Church does not worship idols. Holy Mary is not an idol, nor is she worshiped by the Church. Furthermore, the Bible proves these things. It's very sad to see such blunt ignorance of the Catholic Faith.The salvation of souls depends upon knowledge of the truth a taught by Jesus Christ through His Church. We should discuss this further, Parker1. First of all you need to understand what really happened to the Catholic Church after Vatican 2 and the Great Apostasy and the Counterfeit Church which was predicted in the Bible. To discuss this topic in here would take away from the original post. If you wish (and I would really like to) we can discuss this in another thread. As far as the Papacy, the Office of the Papacy is the office that Christ instituted in St. Peter (see Mt. 16:18-20; John 21:15-17). St. Peter was made the chief of the Apostles and visible head of the Church by Jesus Christ. The Office of St. Peter (the Papacy) is occupied by every true and lawful Bishop of Rome, who becomes a successor to St. Peter in the primacy over the universal (Catholic) Church of Jesus Christ. This means and guarantees that every time there is a true and valid occupant of the Office he is endowed by Christ with infallibility (in his authoritative and binding teaching capacity, not in everything he says or teaches); he is endowed with supreme jurisdiction over the universal Church; and he is the visible head of the Church. That remains true for every true and lawful occupant of the Papal Office. Those teachings proclaimed by the popes in history with their binding authority (such as the Council of Trent or the Council of Florence or a solemn Papal Bull on faith, etc.) constitute the deposit of faith – the unchangeable teachings to which Catholics must submit, and on which they base what they believe as the faithful transmission of the teaching of Scripture and Tradition. The Papacy doesn’t mean that the Church will have a true pope at all times, as Church history and more than 200 papal vacancies prove, nor does it mean that antipopes reigning from Rome are an impossibility (such as Antipope Anacletus II, who reigned in Rome from 1130-1138) – as is the case today. Most Holy Family Monastery

"through His Church?" Where is this in Scripture? Here it is in Scripture: Matthew 16:18-19:

Do you not clearly read that Paul says,

Dave, When you say,

What kind of faith would Paul talking about? He says

Revelation 2:23-26, "...I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give to every one of you according to your works." Revelation 20:12-13: "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which was the book of life:and the dead were judged according to those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

Jesus gives the Kingdom of Heaven to Peter, and declares that whatsoever he binds on earth shall be bound in Heaven. Even though all 12 disciples are gathered together for this meeting, Jesus says these things only to Peter. In the Old Testament, a change of name meant an appointment or special calling or a change in status. Genesis 17:5 ,“Neither shall thy name anymore be called abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations I have made thee.” In Genesis 32:28 God changes Jacob’s name to Israel in order to signify his special role. Therefore, in addition to some other things that Jesus says to Saint Peter in Matthew 16, the change of his name from Simon to Peter serves to confirm Peter’s special role. No other apostle is given the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. In Matthew 18:18 we read that all the apostles are given the power to bind and to loose; but Peter alone is given them. This shows us that the power which is given to all the apostles to bind and to loose in Matt. 18:18, must be exorcised under the keys which are given alone to Peter. Peter has a unique position of authority in the Church. In John 21:15-17, Jesus tells Peter to rule his sheep, “He saith unto him, Feed my lambs…he saith unto him, Tend my sheep…Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.” Jesus is clearly giving St. Peter authority over his flock, the members of His Church. Most Holy Family Monastery.

OneLight, Do you believe that if a person believes in Jesus then he is saved by that faith alone? 1 Corinthians 13:12 says that a person could have all the faith and it could profit him nothing: “Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith so that I could move mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. People are deceiving themselves when they believe that faith alone grants salvation e.g. one who has all faith will be saved. But the Bible teaches otherwise; one could have all faith and it could still profit him nothing! The Church is not God; however the dogmas and other doctrines of God’s Church are rooted in the teachings of Jesus Christ Himself. Does not the Bible say that Christ found one Church (Matt. 18:20), we must hear it to be saved (John 3:5), we need to be baptized (John 3:5) We must receive his body and blood in the Eucharist (John 6), confession (John 20:23)? These are just few of things that many people who say they are Christians deny and reject! But to deny these things are to deny our Lord who teaches us that we must not deny these things, but believe them and DO them in order to be saved. To answer your questions: yes, I believe in the Trinity because that is what is taught by Christ's Holy Catholic Church.