Ebwly

First of all, you need to understand that God sends noone to hell. The bible clearly states that 'God takes no delight in the death of the wicked.' In fact, when they built Rome, they didnt start off by building jails! no, they started off by building a city. Same with God. He started off building heaven and earth. Hell was not part of original creation. Also, God is a just God, and there is evidence in the bible that there will be different degrees of punishment in hell. Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." Also, as for the question of how a finite life on earth can warrant eternal punishment, you have to realize that the length of punishment is not meant to fit the length of time that a crime was committed. e.g. say I break into your house and steal all your furniture. Sure that might take me a whole day, but my jail term wouldn't be that long. However, if I murdered someone by shooting them, the actual deed is committed in less than a minute, but I will very likely get life in prision. therefore, the punishment fits the severity of the crime, not the length of time the deed was committed. And you may not realise it now, but the greatest sin a human being can commit against God his creator is to break the greatest law, and jesus said that the greatest law is 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart mind soul and strength.' therefor we are all sinners and guilty of Hell, because we have all committed the ultimate sin - rejecting our Maker, and attempting to be our own God. That is why Hell is a separation from God, and not only is it necessary, but eternity in hell is a proportionate length of time for a crime as severe as that. Unless of course, you have Jesus! =)

I know from person experience that you are mistaken. I think you take this view because you might not want to admit that the evidence for God's existence is as scarce as agnostics and atheists claim. You have personal experience? thats good. I have divine experience. I trust in GOD more than I trust in man. You trust yourself. Thats a very dangerous thing. Because you see, when you come before God in judgement, there is two people comming to your defence. Choice 1: Yourself. On that day you can say again and again God, you didn't show yourself to me, you didn't give me enough evidence to believe in you..etc.etc...but you will still be comdemned before a holy God because you are a sinner. You see, saying to yourself God doesn't exist doesn't make you righteous. You are still under the wrath of God. Choice 2: Jesus. I trust in my lord Jesus Christ. He will come to my defence. My sins are washed clean in his blood. I am righteous before God because I am trusting in the merit and virtue of his son, Jesus. See the difference? I don't put hope in myself, or man. I place my hope in God's Son. You place your hope in yourself. thats a very shaky rock to be standing on my friend. As for your second point, I have plenty of evdience for God. I speak with him every day thru prayer. i have seen miracles happen in my life. As I trust in him and read his word, I can see that he is guiding me in every step of the journey. I can see that I'm redeemed and I feel free, I feel no judgement, I am saved, and thats all thru Jesus Christ my Lord. I have had my prayers answered. I am a changed man. That is my eevidence, and thats all the evidence I need. If you allow God to come to your heart, and speak to you, you will feel the same way. But your rebellion is stopping you from doing that. Let go of the things which you are holding on to , whether it be lust, fame, greed, whatever. For it is written: He will find me he who seekth with all his heart. Friend, seek him, don't deny what is true. Don't rely on your own power, because let me tell you, nothing can save you apart from God's only son. Grace and Peace be with you!

Okay, I see what you mean and I agree. Note that so many atheists will rebel against God and deny Him while at the same time saying He doesn't exist. Logic tells us that those actions are in direct contradiction to each other. Agreed. Put it this way: A man rejects God neither because of intellectual demands nor because of the scarcity of evidence. A man rejects God because of a moral resistance that refuses to admit his need for God. Not agreed. An atheist will never say that he rebels against God. That is an absurdity. You cannot rebel against someone that you do not think He exists. And that would also be silly, considering that God will surely win at the end. In my case, loss of faith was caused by the fact that I could not accept the existence of a being Who allows all the suffering in the world. Sin and free will were not a sufficient explanation anymore. Now my main motivations are lack of evidence and the fact that there are too many different and contracting religions in the world. Each one states to be the true one. Since there is no real test that can be performed to check who is right, it is more sensible to conclude that everybody might be wrong and leave it at that. This also explain suffering as the consequence of natural processes which are basically indifferent of our suffering. I know it is not encouraging to believe this, but it satisfies me more, intellectually. I do not understand what you mean with moral resistance. My only moral resistance was against the acceptance of a benevolent father who does not prevent all this evil. First of all, it is possible that God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand. In this the Christian can have confidence in God knowing that His ways are above our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). As the Bible says, the just shall live by faith (Hab. 2:4). "How can a mere finite human be sure that infinite wisdom would not tolerate certain short-range evils in order for more long-range goods that we couldn't foresee?" it is quite possible that God uses the suffering to do good. In other words, He produces patience through tribulation (Rom. 5:3). Or He may desire to save someone through it. Take for example, the account of Joseph who was sold into slavery by His brothers. What they did was wrong and Joseph suffered greatly for it. But, later, God raised up Joseph in Egypt to make provisions for the people of that land during the coming drought of seven years. Not only was Egypt saved, but also his family and brothers who originally sold him into slavery. Joseph finally says to them, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:15-21). Analogy: Imagine a bear in a trap and a hunter who, out of sympathy, wants to liberate him. He tries to win the bear's confidence, but he can't do it, so he has to shoot the bear full of drugs. The bear, however, thinks this is an attack and that the hunter is trying to kill him. He doesn't realize that this is being done out of compassion. "Then, in order to get the bear out of the trap, the hunter has to push him further into the trap to release the tension on the spring. If the bear were semiconscious at that point, he would be even more convinced that the hunter was his enemy who was out to cause him suffering and pain. But the bear would be wrong. He reaches this incorrect conclusion because he's not a human being." how can anyone be certain that's not an analogy between us and God? I believe God does the same to us sometimes, and we can't comprehend why he does it any more than the bear can understand the motivations of the hunter. As the bear could have trusted the hunter, so we can trust God." The existence of evil in favour of the existence of God If there is no God, where did we get the standard of goodness by which we judge evil as evil? God gave Adam dominion over the world (Gen. 1:28). When he rebelled against God, he set in motion an entire series of events and changed the very nature of man and creation. Both were affected by sin. Creation was no longer a paradise, but bore thorns and thistles (Gen. 3:17-18; Rom. 8:22). People became sinful (Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:3), who were haters of God (Rom. 3:19-12), etc. The only conclusion to such a situation is death. Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect

Okay, I see what you mean and I agree. Note that so many atheists will rebel against God and deny Him while at the same time saying He doesn't exist. Logic tells us that those actions are in direct contradiction to each other. Agreed. Put it this way: A man rejects God neither because of intellectual demands nor because of the scarcity of evidence. A man rejects God because of a moral resistance that refuses to admit his need for God.

A man rejects God neither because of intellectual demands nor because of the scarcity of evidence. A man rejects God because of a moral resistance that refuses to admit his need for God.

Hey, I only joined a few days ago, but I believe that finding this site was part of God's will to help me deal with the issues that are in my life. I am Christian, and there is a specific area of my life which I am struggling with, and I need an accountability partner to help me with it. Please, this no females as accountability partners, as I am a male. Someone who can keep me accountable, who has msn so we can talk about it. If you agree, I will let you know what the sin is and we can go from there. I need someone who hopefully has been through this before, and defeated it. i live in Australia, so if you live near me, its better, as we will be in the same time zone. Thanks, let me know. God Bless all of you.

I disagree strongly with your remarks above, Ebwly. It's important to give atheists and agnostics opportunities to read the opinions of Christians, to be exposed to Scripture, and to express their feelings. Some of them are searching, some are confused and then, of course, some have hearts so hardened they are unreachable. But we can't pretend they don't exist. This paragraph... For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools...2 Romans 1. ...is all about what God will do; not us. We are not the judges of unbelievers. Oh, welcome to Worthy! u're both right. don't fight:emot-highfive: No fighting going on, Josephine; just animated discussion. When a person tells you they are an atheist, or an agnostic, you have to do one thing believe, them, or believe in the world of God. Scripture says that there are no atheists or agnostics. I believe in scripture as the infallible word of God. Human opinion will always come second. Although I agree with you that we should treat unbelievers with love and compassion just as our Lord Jesus commanded us to do, and we should guide them from their ignorance. Peace and Grace be with you! Can you post the passage that says there are no atheists or agnostics? I can't find it.... I do not thing that such a passage exists. What exists is that atheists are fools, which is different than saying that they do not exists. I prefer to be a fool than not existing... Basically there are 4 types of non-theistic beliefs: 1) Deists, pantheists, etc. -> They are clearly religious or spiritual somehow 2) Agnostics -> they leave the question open. I do not understand how, though, one can be so busy as to leave that open. This will automatically mean that one is agnostic on Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Zeus, Aliens, etc.etc. That is a bit too easy and just a way to dodge important existential question. 3) New atheists. They are usually pretty shrill and confrontational. But do not make the mistake to dismiss them too early. Contrarily to agnostics, they take your beliefs very seriously (otherwise they will not be so happy to debate). They usually leave in societies where religion has a too strong effect on civil life. The main reason of their renewed existence is the growing influence of Islam (at least here in Europe) which tries to influence our culture too much. Christianity here is too soft and "tolerant" against primitive customs and ideas (e.g. Sharia laws and burkas). 4) Post-atheists. These ones are the fastest growing kind of atheism, mainly in central and North Europe. They usually leave in societies where religious ethics does not influence the legal and social system. For them, belief in a deity is completely irrelevant. They will never debate or talk about that: for them is as irrelevant as debating about alien abductions. I belong to 3) but I am not so shrill nor confrontational... I hope. Its here: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools...2 Romans 1. Bolded Parts especially So when I mean that they don't exist, I mean that they do know God, they just don't seek him and they rebel against him. I know an atheist exists, I'm just saying, according to the bible, people who are atheists do believe in God, they just refuse to acknowledgment God.

First of all, you need to understand that God sends noone to hell. The bible clearly states that 'God takes no delight in the death of the wicked.' In fact, when they built Rome, they didnt start off by building jails! no, they started off by building a city. Same with God. He started off building heaven and earth. Hell was not part of original creation. Also, God is a just God, and there is evidence in the bible that there will be different degrees of punishment in hell. Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." Also, as for the question of how a finite life on earth can warrant eternal punishment, you have to realize that the length of punishment is not meant to fit the length of time that a crime was committed. e.g. say I break into your house and steal all your furniture. Sure that might take me a whole day, but my jail term wouldn't be that long. However, if I murdered someone by shooting them, the actual deed is committed in less than a minute, but I will very likely get life in prision. therefore, the punishment fits the severity of the crime, not the length of time the deed was committed. And you may not realise it now, but the greatest sin a human being can commit against God his creator is to break the greatest law, and jesus said that the greatest law is 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart mind soul and strength.' therefor we are all sinners and guilty of Hell, because we have all committed the ultimate sin - rejecting our Maker, and attempting to be our own God. That is why Hell is a separation from God, and not only is it necessary, but eternity in hell is a proportionate length of time for a crime as severe as that. Unless of course, you have Jesus! =)

I disagree strongly with your remarks above, Ebwly. It's important to give atheists and agnostics opportunities to read the opinions of Christians, to be exposed to Scripture, and to express their feelings. Some of them are searching, some are confused and then, of course, some have hearts so hardened they are unreachable. But we can't pretend they don't exist. This paragraph... For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools...2 Romans 1. ...is all about what God will do; not us. We are not the judges of unbelievers. Oh, welcome to Worthy! u're both right. don't fight:emot-highfive: No fighting going on, Josephine; just animated discussion. When a person tells you they are an atheist, or an agnostic, you have to do one thing believe, them, or believe in the world of God. Scripture says that there are no atheists or agnostics. I believe in scripture as the infallible word of God. Human opinion will always come second. Although I agree with you that we should treat unbelievers with love and compassion just as our Lord Jesus commanded us to do, and we should guide them from their ignorance. Peace and Grace be with you!

Why are we even debating this topic? Atheists don't even exist. The bible does not acknowledge atheism nor agnosticism, this is what the scripture says: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools...2 Romans 1. So brothers and sisters, lets not debate on this. Men won't come to God because you give them a good logical argument or you try to prove to them God exists. men only get saved once they understand that they are under the wrath of God, and the gravity of their sin against a holy god leads them to true, genuine repentance and they fall upon the cross of Jesus Christ. Peace and Grace be with you!