borntorebel

Horizoneast said, I agree with you, our choices are caused by both internal and external causes. I never said they weren't. First of all, I study the scriptures, not the Jewish interpretations of scripture. That is exactly what Jesus spoke against, man's logical ideas about the OT scriptures. I am not interested in a Jewish understanding of freewill. Why would I want to follow the beliefs of a religious belief system that Jesus spoke out against continually? Yes, I do believe we will give an account for what we have done on the Day of Judgement. Earlier in the post you gave your definition of freewill. That's nice, but I don't create my own definitions of words to support my beliefs. My beliefs are subject to God and His scriptures, not the other way around. Your definition of freewill ( as it used in our society today)is incorrect. Freewill (making choices without cause) isn't a biblical concept. This manmade idea denies the soveriegnty of God, which is most definitely a biblical concept. May God's power and peace be with you, Ron

Pastor Jeff said, The holy spirit is never referred to in scripture as a 'person'. This is a manmade idea based on man's fallen wisdom and logic. An interesting thing about the holy spirit being an equal part of the trinity, out of all the times God and Jesus are mentioned together in the NT, the majority of the time the holy spirit isn't mentioned with them. Also, when Christ talks about the relationship between him and his Father, the holy spirit is NEVER mentioned. Only in the verses which talk about baptism are all three included together. The holy spirit is the spirit of God, plain and simple. Pastor Jeff said, Here are the original words used for the words spirit and holy; NT - Spirit pneuma - Strongs #4151 - a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) ot breeze; by anal. or fig. a spirit, i.e. (human) rational soul, by impl. vital principle, mental disposition. phantasma - #5326 - a mere show (phantasm), i.e. spectre. OT - Spirit ruwach - #7307 - wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; fig. life, anger, unsubstantiality. neshamah - #5397 - a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. NT - Holy Hagios - #40 - sacred (phys. pure, morally blameless or religious), certainly consecrated. Well, using your process of study, not one mention in anyway whatsoever of any personhood for the holy spirit. Sorry, unless you create out of thin air the idea of personhood, it doesn't exist in the original language. Now let's look at see what scripture has to say about the holy spirit; "It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will NOT COME UNTO YOU; but if I depart, I will SEND HIM unto you." Jn. 16:7; "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me" John 14:6; "Now, whenever the consoler [comforter] which I shall be sending you from the Father, even the spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me." Jn. 15:26. "Yet whenever that may be coming--the spirit of truth [Jesus said that HE is the Truth]--it will be guiding you into all the truth, for it will NOT be speaking from itself [it is NOT A GOD], but whatsoever it should be hearing [from Whom sent it] will it be speaking, and of what is coming will it be informing you. That will be glorifying ME, seeing that of MINE will it be getting, and informing you. All, whatever the Father has, is MINE. THEREFORE I said to you that OF MINE IS IT GETTING, AND WILL BE INFORMING YOU." John 16:13-15; "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." Jn. 14:18 "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you...But the comforter, which is the holy spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your rememberance, whatsoever I have said unto you." Jn. 14:20 & 26. Now when scripture speaks here of a comforter, the Greek word used here is 'parakletos'. Comforter - parakletos Strongs #3875 - an intercessor, consoler. Among the pentecostal and charismatic circles, this Greek word is preached often in reference to the holy spirit. Let's see who else this word refers to; "And if any man sin, we have an ADVOCATE with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 Jn. 2:1. The Greek word 'parakletos' is also translated into the word used here, advocate. So we see that jesus Christ is also our parakletos. When looking at these scriptures, one can see that the holy spirit is nothing more than the spirit of God and Jesus sent to us as Jesus told us in John. The holy spirit can only teach us and tell us what God the Father and Jesus want it to. The holy spirit doesn't hold any offices. Nothing of the sort is ever mentioned in scripture. Once again, this is a manmade idea based on man's fallen wisdom and logic. May God's power and peace be with you, Ron

Trinity said, Actually, satan was never an angel. Let's see what God says about satan; "He that committeth sin is of the devil (diabolos - a traducer{to speak maliciously and falsely of; slander, defame, malign}); for the devil sinneth from the beginning." 1 Jn. 3:8 So we see here that the devil sinned from the very beginning. If it says "from the very beginning", that's what it means. For another witness, let's see what Jesus has to say; "Ye are of your father the devil (same as previous verse), and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him." Jn. 8:44. Trinity said, Actually, these verses here aren't referring to satan at all. They're referring to the king of Babylon. In v. 15 it says "Yet thou shall be brought down to hell..." This means the person being referred to here is dead. The Hebrew word here is 'sheol', which correlates with the Greek word 'hades' which means unseen or imperceptible, the place of the dead. Satan was never an angel, he wasn't a musical cherub. These are manmade ideas, not scriptural facts. Satan (devil) is real. It isn't our flesh or a mythical being. God created satan to serve His purposes in the world. May God's power and peace be with you, Ron

Another Traveler, I agree with your statements about choice presented here 100%. Would you agree also that if it is part of God's plan that you or I or someone else do or not do something, do you think He can and will do that? May God's power and peace be with you, Ron

I'll say this one more time and then I'm done repeating myself. Freewill means that God doesn't intervene in the matters of the world (I'm keeping it as short as possible to fit into your understanding of things). It doesn't mean to choose. No choice any human has ever made or ever will make isn't without a cause. Freewill says we can choose without a cause, which goes against the proven law of the universe of "cause and effect". I don't believe in 'shortcuts' to explain God's word. That's one reason we have so many problems in the church today. You say it as a shortcut, then the next generation sees it as the true meaning instead of just a shortcut, and so on and so forth. I say what I mean and mean what I say. We aren't to be so loose with God's word as to preach with "shortcuts". Paul has several teachings on how to teach God's word. As far as the "trinity", you can view my discussion in the apologetics section of this MB. No DE, I don't wish to cause dissension, but if what I share from God's word causes dissension, so be it. Jesus and the early apostles didn't exactly preach ideas about God and His word that the religious leaders of their day liked either (not comparing you to the religious leaders of their day, that's just what we know about. no offense meant) Chixsngr, it is difficult to search through the teachings of man to discover God's truth. Ask God to guide you and teach you. That's what His holy spirit is for. One good thing to do is get a Strong's concordance so you can see the meaning of the Greek words that are translated into English. Also, if you hear a preacher saying something that doesn't line up with God's word, i.e. Falwell's statement that you quoted, don't listen to them. There are many men and women in the world today who aren't teaching all of God's truth or are adding their own manmade ideas to God's word. Although I am nothing more than a sinner saved by God's grace, I would be glad to offer any assistance I can to answer any questions you may have. May God's power and peace be with you, Ron

Chixngr, Very well spoken. Why do christians applaud the killing of thousands of people when Christ tells us we are to love our enemies, and to even be angry with your brother is a sin. As far as God blessing America, God determines what countries exist, and what kings are in power. I personally am disgusted when people say we need to get back to the great christian nation we were back in the 1600's and 1700's. Wow, let's go back to calling blacks 1/12th of a person, taking away the right of women to vote, sewing scarlet "A's" on a female adulterer's garment (doesn't adultery require a man to enter a woman? Guess those holy males were exempt from the disgrace), killing indians and calling it "God's Manifest Destiny" (which was preached almost all of the churches of that day. Yeah, that sounds like a godly nation to me. You'll find that many christians don't actually practice what God preaches. May God's power and peace be with you, Ron

No I'm not the authority on the definition of words in the English language. I'll leave that to the publishers of the Websters dictionary. Christians say that we can choose God because we have a freewill. First of all, as I have shown, God tells us that no one can come to Jesus unless God gives him/her the opportunity to do so. Jesus even says "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you...". If by using the word 'freewill, you mean that we have a choice in what we do (except of course choosing to believe in God as a sinner) then let's just say we have a choice, because 'freewill' doesn't mean that. It means that God doesn't operate in this world, which goes against a multitude of scriptures. The word 'freewill' is a secular word that christians have adopted which doesn't appear in scripture (with the meaning I have just shown)just like they have the word 'trinity'. May God's power and peace be with you, Ron

Repent1, You are defining English words. I am going to the original Greek and finding the actual meaning of that word. There is no other definition for the Greek word 'helkuo' than to drag. There are other Greek words translated into draw which mean what you say, but those aren't the words used in this verse or the others I gave you. Did you look up those verses? It's not suitable or convenient for what? The manmade fable that we can make choices without cause? Do you believe scripture Repent1? "No man can come to me unless the Father which has sent me draw him...no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." Jn. 6:44, 65. Those are Jesus' words, not mine. By your logic, even without what I am saying, that statement in God's word is untrue because God showed partiality to the Israelites. God using the Greek word 'helkuo' in this verse just gives more proof that we don't CHOOSE God, He chooses us. Very good question Repent1. You should purchase a Strongs concordance or use one online, it would be a great asset to your study of God's word. Draw nigh - Strong's #1448 - eggizo - from #1451; to make near, i.e., (reflex.) appraoch. As you can see, this word is not the same word used in the verses I showed you. When I first saw the meaning of 'helkuo', it bothered me also. I had the same questions you have, and in some ways I still have them. In Jn. 6:65 Jesus says that no man can come unto Him unless it is given him of the Father. I believe God said the same thing with two different Greek words in the same chapter of the same book for a reason. It shows that we cannot choose God, but rather He chooses us. Now I know it says in many places we're to repent of our sins and confess Jesus as savior. Ok, that doesn't go against what I believe. When God gives us the opportunity, then we are to repent and confess Jesus as our savior. Sorry Repent, that's up to God. I'll let Him decide that, He's alot smarter than me. I never said we aren't responsible for our choices and I never said that God manipulates our every action. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth or insinuating I said something that I didn't say. If you think that's what I mean, please ask. God causes things to happen, just like He did with Pharaoh. "Shall the thing formed say to him who formed it, 'Why hast thou made me thus?'" Rom. 9:20 KJV. Sounds very similar to what you just said. In Rev. 20 it says we will give an account for our works. This isn't a contradiction. As God tells us in Jn. 6:44 & 65, no one can come to Jesus until God gives him the opportunity. Once we are children of God we still have the same ability as we did before God chose us, to do evil or good. If we didn't, then the majority of the epistles were written for nothing. After God has chosen us, we can resist sin. Before He chose us, we didn't. Please be sure to read what I write. I said we can't repent WITHOUT THE SPIRIT OF GOD WITHIN US, in other words after we are chosen as God's children. Actually, it's the holy spirit of God and Jesus that does all those things. Now I don't think you were referring to the quote you had from Romans, so I'll address this quote from Reve. Jesus is speaking to christians here, not sinners. Like I have said several times, once God has chosen us, we can choose to obey or disobey Him. You and others on here seem to be assuming or insinuating I think we are puppets and God controls us. I have never said that. The verses in Romans mean we should not let sin rule in our bodies, we shouldn't let sin control us since we have now been freed from the bondage of sin. The verses in John confirm what I said; "Now we know that God HEARETH NOT SINNERS..." Yes, we are to do God's will. Concerning the statement that God doesn't make us do His will; "It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" Phil. 2:13; "who (God) worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will" Eph. 1:11. Worketh - Strong's # 1754 - from #1756; to be active, efficient. This is the same Greek word translated 'effectual' in James 5:16 when it speaks about the prayers of a righteous man being effectual, or accomplishing something. Now, I wouldn't say that God makes us, but He does want us to choose to do His will, which will lead us into a deeper relationship with Him. Can we disobey? Sure we can. If this bothers you, I must refer you once again to Romans 9:19-20. Repent1, I never used the words manipulate, coerce, force or make. Those are your ideas of what I said. I never said those words or implied those words. We can disobey God as christians. May God's power and peace be with you, Ron

Horizoneast said, Here's the problem I have. This isn't freewill. Freewill is by definition the ability to make choices without cause. That is impossible. We need to be sure that what we are saying is saying what we mean it to say. We can't just decide what a word means and then use it. Excellent job Horizoneast. You're the first person to ever show me that verse. However, the Hebrew word used here doesn't mean to make a choice without cause. Freewill - Strongs # 5069 - nedab - corresp. to 5068; be (or give liberally; #5068 - nadab - to impel; hence to volunteer (as a soldier), to present spontaneously: offer freely (as compared to being compelled against your will). This is similar to the word used in freewill offerings. It means it's a voluntary offering, doing something without being compelled or coerced. As I have said, I believe we have the ability to make choices. What I'm saying is that none of those choices are made without a cause. It is impossible to make a choice without a cause. Something causes every choice we make. Freewill says we can make choices without cause. That is a scientific, physiological and scriptural impossibility; "It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" Phil. 2:13; "who worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will" Eph. 1:11. Actually, Jesus tells us in the NT; "no man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (drag) him..." "...no man can come unto me , except it be given unto him of my Father." Jn. 6:44, 65 KJV. May God's power and peace be with you, Ron

DE said, Ok, I don't know why you said "free thinking", I never said anything of the sort. DE said (my responses will be in bold and italics), Have you given any thought to Judas? He was called, chosen and sent with the power of the Holy Ghost to heal the sick, raise the dead and cast out demons, yet he betrayed our Lord. FREE WILL. Judas CHOSE to betray the Lord Jesus because that was God's plan;"Jesus answered them, 'Have I not chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil(false accuser, slanderer)?'" The thief on the cross - he saw, he heard, he REPENTED and confessed the Name of Jesus AND was forgiven. FREE WILL. The thief repented after God had drawn him (Jn. 6:44), nothing free about that. Annanias and Sapphira - they gave but lied about how much they gave - a devilish heart. FREE WILL. They CHOSE to lie to Peter BECAUSE they were greedy (cause and effect). King David & Bathsheba. He saw how beautiful she was and determined to have her for himself, even at the cost of his head commander. FREE WILL. David saw how beautiful Bathsheba was, and was enticed into lusting after by her beauty, and then CHOSE to have sex with her and have her husband killed. Adam decided to listen to his wife, instead of God - FREE WILL. Adam CHOSE to listen to his wife and eat of the fruit. And on and on it goes. None of these were puppets, they had the ability to choose whom they would follow. Yes DE, they had the ability to choose, but it wasn't freewill because there was a cause. Freewill says that we make choices without any outside causes. Now you may not define that word this way, but that is what it means. I never said anyone is a puppet. May I ask why you keep presenting things as if I've said or inferred them when I haven't? May God's power and peace be with you, Ron

DE said, I guess you're referring to my staement "So, do you believe God's word, or man's traditions?" What I mean by that statement is that not all christian doctrines are of God, many are man's teachings, just like Jesus told the religious leaders of his day. Freewill, trinity and other doctrines are manmade creations based on the wisdom of men, which is foolishness to God. God's wisdom is far, far above our wisdom. Does that answer your question? May God's power and peace be with you, Ron

DE, One question. Is it a typo where you said "nothing is new under the SON."? Yes, my point is there is no freewill. You proved my point in your own statements. God is the only original thinker, to use your terminology. You're right, we do make choices. Until God calls us though, noone can choose to follow Him. Once God has called us, we have the ability to choose to follow God or disobey Him. It seems you agree with me, but I can't quite tell from your post. I'll ask you, what is your point? May God's power and peace be with you, Ron

Trinitarianism isn't scriptural. Modalism isn't scriptural. These, along with the other ideas about God, Jesus and the holy spirit are man's arguments to explain something that they don't understand. Why did the early church fathers develop the idea of the trinity? Because the culture worshipped gods, and they had many gods. When they heard christians talking about Jesus being God and God being God, they started saying there was more than one God, just like their gods. Instead of relying on God's word and sticking to what it said, they bowed down to the pressure of their times and started creating hypothesis and theories about what God is. Let's see what one supporting reference source says about the trinity. Now this statement is from a reference book which supports the idea of the trinity. Sorry, but if something is "not demostrable by logic or scriptural proof" I don't believe it. Heres another statement by a suporter of the trinity doctrine. Once again, when someone tells me that in order to understand a supposed concept promoted by christian people, I must first "understand the theory (admittedly, by him, not presented in scripture) that is embodied in this terminology", I don't follow that error filled logic. Now, let's look at what God actually says about His deity, Jesus' deity and the holy spirit. "For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" I Cor. 8:5-6; "...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." John 16:27-28; "Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" Col. 14-17; "For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." I Tim. 2:5; "...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" John 14:28; "Now I want you to be aware that the Head of every man is Christ, yet the head of the woman is the man, yet the Head of Christ IS GOD" I Cor. 11:3; "...that the GOD OF OUR LORD Jesus Christ, the FATHER..." Eph. 1:17; "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ" Eph. 1:3; "We are thanking the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ" Col.1:3; I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ" 1 Ptr. 1:3 "...there is ONE God, the FATHER..." I Cor. 8:6; "There is ONE GOD, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL is..." I Cor. 8:6; "The ONE Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS will..." Eph. 1:11; "Out of Him and through Him and for Him is ALL: to HIM be the glory for the eons! Amen!" Rom. 11:36; "God IS SPIRIT" John 4:24; "...the INVISIBLE GOD" II Cor. 4:4; "Now it is eonian life that they may know Thee, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Him Whom Thou dost commission, Jesus Christ" John 17:3; Jesus called His Father "...the ONLY TRUE GOD" Jn. 17:3; "Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" Mat. 16:16; "Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" II Cor. 4:4; "The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" II Jn 3; "If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" John 8:42; "Nor Jesus said to him, ‘Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" Mark 10:18; "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" John 1:1; "Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking]: ‘Thy throne, O GOD, is for the eon of the eon..." Heb. 1:8; Who [Jesus], being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging [taking by force or plundering] to be EQUAL WITH GOD" Phil. 2:6; "Jesus, being aware that the Father has GIVEN ALL INTO HIS HANDS, and that He came out FROM God and is going away TO God" John 13:3; "Now the Father, remaining in Me, He IS DOING HIS WORKS" John 14:10; "And the word which you are hearing is NOT Mine, but the Father’s Who sends me" John 14:24; "I am going to the Father, for THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I" John 14:28; "Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, THE SON HIMSELF ALSO SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" I Cor. 15:28; So, what do we see in scripture about God and Jesus? There is only ONE God, the Father. There is only ONE Lord, Jesus Christ. God the Father is greater than Jesus, and Jesus will put all things, including himself, under God's rule at the end of this age. Jesus didn't consider it pillaging to be equal with God for God gave him the position he holds. God calls Jesus God in Heb. 1:8. Jesus is the mediator between God and mankind. God is greater than Jesus. God is the head of Christ, as Christ is the head of the body. God is spirit. God is invisible. Jesus is the image of the invisible God. Jesus is the Son of God the Father. Jesus came out of God. God the Father gave all things to Jesus. Jesus can do nothing unless the Father God tells him to. One interesting note here, the holy spirit isn't mentioned in these scriptures once. God and the holy spirit aren't persons. The holy spirit is the spirit of God and of Jesus. Who or what is the holy spirit? "It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will NOT COME UNTO YOU; but if I depart, I will SEND HIM unto you." Jn. 16:7; "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me" John 14:6; "Now, whenever the consoler [comforter] which I shall be sending you from the Father..." Jn. 15:26; "Yet whenever that may be coming--the spirit of truth [Jesus said that HE is the Truth]--it will be guiding you in to all the truth, for it will NOT be speaking from itself [it is NOT A GOD], but whatsoever it should be hearing [from Whom sent it] will it be speaking, and of what is coming will it be informing you. That will be glorifying ME, seeing that of MINE will it be getting, and informing you. All, whatever the Father has, is MINE. THEREFORE I said to you that OF MINE IS IT GETTING, AND WILL BE INFORMING YOU." John 16:13-15; "I will NOT leave you bereaved [comfortless], I am coming to you [in the form of the comforter and spirit of truth]." Jn 14:18; "IN THAT DAY [the day when the comforter comes] you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I IN YOU" (Jn 14:20)! "Now the consoler [comforter], THE HOLY SPIRIT, which the Father will be sending IN MY NAME, that will be teaching you all, and reminding you of all that I said to you" Jn 14:26; "I am going, and I AM COMING TO YOU" Jn. 14:27; "And if anyone should be sinning, we have an Entreater with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just." 1 Jn. 2:1; (Jesus Christ is the 'parakleetos' as is shown here); So we see that the holy spirit couldn't come until Jesus left. It speaks only what God or Jesus tells it to speak. It isn't independant of the Father or Jesus in anyway whatsoever. It is the holy spirit of God. May God's power and peace be with you, Ron

Another Traveler, Not problem at all. Thank you very much for having the humility to admit your mistake, that's very refreshing to see. If you ever see something that I have misunderstood or misinterpreted from a post on here, feel free to let me know. May God's power and peace be with you, Ron

Evangelina, The Hebrew word used here for the English word 'circumcise' is as follows; circumcise - Strongs #4135 - plerophoreo - from #4134 & 5409; to carry out fully (in evidence), i.e. completely assure (or convince), entirely accomplish. Now, looking back at the verse in question; "And the Lord thy God will completely assure and entirely accomplish in thine heart , and the heart of thine seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live." In Gala. 3:29, we see that we are the seed; "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." So therefore, this verse is speaking to us, the seed of Abraham. It couldn't have been speaking to the Israelites because the old covenant had no power over the heart. It was a physical covenant, not a spiritual covenant like we have now. I would gladly answer the question you have on your MB. May God's power and peace be with you, Ron

My pleasure Evangelina. I will check out your posting board. May God's power and peace be with you, Ron

DE, My point is quite clearly stated, andyes I do know that Jesus Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world to be our savior. May God's power and peace be with you, Ron

Actually Repent1, we as humans aren't able to choose to repent without the spirit of God inside us. ""For the creature (that's us) was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY [not by our 'free will'], but by reason of HIM who hath subjected the same in hope" Rom. 8:20; ""The preparations of the heart in man and the answer of the tongue is FROM THE LORD" Pro. 16:1; ""The kings [Pharaoh, King Saul and King Ahab and our] heart is in the hand of the Lord ... He turneth it whithersoever He will" Pro. 21:1; ""Man's goings [ways] are of the Lord, how can a man then understand his own way?" Pro. 20:24; ""O Lord, I know that the way [goings] of man is not in himself: IT IS NOT IN MAN THAT WALKETH TO DIRECT HIS STEPS" Jer. 10:23; ""Not one is just-not even one." Rom. 3:10; "Not one is understanding." (Ver. 11); "Not one is seeking out God." (Ver. 11); "All avoid Him: at the same time they were useless." (Ver. 12); "Not one is doing kindness: there is not even one!" (Ver. 12); " ... For all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God." Rom. 3:23; "No one is good except One, God." Mk 10:19; "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:6; "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness [including our 'good' consciences] are as filthy rags ... " Isa. 64:6. We are evil through and through. We don't even have the desire to choose or follow God, at least that's what God tells us. If we could come to God and repent of our ways, there wouldn't have been a need for Jesus. Only if God decides to call us and choose us are we even able to follow Jesus. Actually Repent, the Greek word used in this verse is helkuo - Strong's #1670 - to drag. It doesn't in anyway whatsoever mean to attract, refer. Jn. 12:32, 21:6; James 2:6. Let's see what God says instead of deciding for ourselves. "And the Lord said unto Satan, 'Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?' Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, 'Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast thou not made an hedge (suwk - to entwine,, i.e. shut in {for formation, protection or restraint} about him...thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But put forth thine hand (this is satan telling God to do this) now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.' And the Lord said unto Satan, 'Behold, all that he hath is in thy power (God removed His protection and gave satan the right to try Job)." Wihtout God removing His protection from around Job, satan had no power to try him with his attacks. God allowed satan to try Job. Not only was God responsible for the evil that came upon Job, God created evil (Isaiah 45:7). Ok, here's the definition of freewill; the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces. Websters Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language. Now, can any christian accept that definition? NO! It denies the ability of God to intervene in this world. Yes, we have the ability to make choices. However, as Einstein proved, the first rule of the universe is cause and effect. No human being has ever or ever will have the ability to make a voluntary choice that isn't caused by something. That is a physiological impossibility. Every choice we make is caused by something. As far as scripture is concerned, where does this fabled freewill fit into Romans 9? It can't, plain and simple. I'm not saying we're puppets. I'm not saying that our choices are predetermined. I'm not saying that we can't choose to do good or evil once the spirit of God is inside of us. I'm saying that these choices are caused.

Adstar wrote, Actually Adstar, Joshua was also speaking to all the people of Israel; "And Joshua said unto ALL the people..." Joshua 24:2 KJV. So you're saying that the disciples didn't have to believe in God? Sorry, but that's a false statement. Even Judas, who was CHOSEN by Jesus, believed in Jesus. This is proven by his grief and sorrow after the arrest and crucifixion of Jesus when he hanged himself. However, let's see if Jesus ever tells us anywhere else about only those who are chosen coming to him; ""For it is GOD which works IN YOU both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13). "And he (Jesus) said, 'Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." Jn. 6:65. So for us to will and to do of His good pleasure, God must produce that work in us. NO man can come unto Jesus unless God has first given him that ability. Yes, Paul was talking about how being a christian makes us new. What Paul says though is that ALL things are of God. That doesn't mean part, or only what he's discussing now, but ALL. In the other verse, it says that those who do not righteousness are not OF God. ALL is of God. Nothing that has ever existed came into being without God being involved. It has nothing to do with capitilization of words. Paul wasn't just talking about what he had previously mentioned, or he would have said "now all of THESE things are of God." referring to what he was saying. He was speaking of ALL things. There are actually 8 words from the Hebrew that are translated into the English word 'love', and 10 Greek words translated into the English word 'love'. In my post, I gave you the meaning of the word 'repent' used in that verse. It doesn't mean what you said it means. May God's power and peace be with you, Ron

"Him (Jesus), being delivered BY the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken and by wicked hands have crucified and slain." Acts 2:23 KJV. Now, Peter is speaking to the Jews after pentecost here. It seems pretty important to Peter that God's determinate counsel and foreknowledge of Jesus' life on earth be mentioned. Determinate - Strong's #3724 - horizo - from 3725; to mark out or bound (horizon), i.e. (fig.) to appoint, decree, specify. Counsel - Strong's 1012 - boule - volition, i.e. (obj.) advice, or (by impl.) purpose. Foreknowledge - Strong's #4268 -prognosis - from #4267 (to know beforehand); forethought. Jesus life and death was the appointed purpose of God. God knew beforehand what would happen. That doesn't mean he saw it all happen and then foreknew. If God already saw it all happen, then how can it be foreknowledge? "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou (God) hast anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together (why were they gathered together?), For to do whatsoever thy (God's) hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." Acts 427-28 KJV. This says plain as day that Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles and the people of Israel were gathered together against Christ in order to crucify him by God's hand and counsel. So, do you believe God's word, or man's traditions? May God's power and peace be with you, Ron

To all who responded, Thank you for your many responses. Now that several have put in your ideas about freewill, I have more questions. What is the definition of freewill? Since there isn't ONE instance of the word 'freewill' in the bible, it cannot be defined from scripture, so there must be a definition in order to know what 'freewill' means. Also, concerning proof from scripture, I'm not asking where our ability to choose is in the bible, I'm asking where 'freewill' is in the bible. DE said; You're comparing apples and oranges in using Rom. 1. That passage doesn't correspond with Rom. 9. In ch. 1, God is telling us that because of the wrong choices made by mankind to indulge their sinful nature, He gave them over to a reprobate mind (actions determine consequences). In ch. 9, God tells us He has mercy on whom He has mercy and hardens whom He hardens. He clearly states this has nothing to do with what the individual does (their actions). What must be done here is to look at the two passages, which seem to contradict each other, and determine what is God's ultimate truth. Concerning the 'predestinated according to foreknowledge', you're getting it backward. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Rom. 8:29-30 KJV. God doesn't say here that because he foreknew he predestinated. He says that those whom he foreknew, he also did predestinate.

Evangelina, I can't exactly tell, but I assume you are talking about the beatitudes in Matthew where Jesus talks about the law and then adds to it. Let's look at it; "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" Mt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-44 KJV. Now, as Jesus says, under the OT law, you could lust after a woman in your heart and not sin. You could hate your enemies and not sin. You could just give your wife a bill of divorcement to divorce her and not sin. You could be angry with your brother and not sin. You could swear by heaven to show you were truthful and not sin. You could avenge evil with evil, i.e. eye for an eye, and not sin. Now in the NT, Jesus tells us that the new 'spiritual' covenant is even more strict. If you even look at a woman with any amount of lust in your heart, you've sinned. If you hate your enemies, you've sinned. If you are angry with your brother, you've sinned. If you get divorced for any other reason than fornication, you've sinned. The bottom line is, it's all about the heart now. Under the old 'physical' covenant, God couldn't deal with the heart, or spirit. He had to deal with the natural or physical. Now, under the new 'spiritual' covenant, we are held to an even higher standard. Along with that however comes the even greater power of being saved from the bondage of sin. That couldn't happen under the old covenant. If one doesn't lust after another woman/man, they won't commit adultery. If one doesn't hate their enemies, they won't avenge out of a carnal attitude. What we have now is a new thing, the fulfillment of what God prophesied in the OT. What happened in the OT is an ensample (example) for us (2 Ptr. 2:6; 1 Cor. 10:11). I hope this sheds light on your question. May God's power and peace be with you, Ron

John S. That is really kewl! I was just reading this scripture the other day and something jumped out at me. "He that commiteth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 Jn. 3:8-9 KJV. Now, relate this verse to 1 Jn. 5:18 and things look very familiar; Born of God sinneth not begotten (born) of God wicked one toucheth him not. Now, could this relate to Jesus? Jesus is the only person who didn't sin, no human ever has or ever will be able to not sin. In 1 Jn. 5:18, it uses the word 'begotten'. HHmmm, who's the only BEGOTTEN Son of God? Can satan touch us? Sure, jsut read Job. Can satan (the wicked one) touch Christ? NO!! This is just something I recently discovered. It sure does answer all those questions concerning whether or not we humans can stop sinning (which the rest of scripture clearly doesn't teach). Any thoughts? May God's power and peace be with you, Ron

Can anyone show me where 'freewill' is in the bible? May God's power and peace be with you, Ron