archmichael

Bold' - Can't debate or discuss end time matters with a partial preterist / historist. We are too far apart on foundational ET doctrine. Thanks for "sparring" with me though....

Are you serious?! Hey, don't take my word for it. The Rev mentions white linens for the Elect many times. But also, Christ himself mentions in Rev 3:5 ( as one of many examples ) : "He that overcometh, the same shall BE CLOTHED IN WHITE RAIMENT;...". Make up your mind...am I merely "incorrect", or am I accursed? Oh, but I do believe Christ stands before God. That's my point! If Christ was God, why are both standing side x side in The Rev, or better yet, how can Christ sit at the right hand of God if they are but one entity? These images support my contention that there are 3 entities of the same mindset, and not one in 3. I'm not rejecting that John wrote The Rev. I'm seriously questioning if the John that wrote The Rev was John the Beloved. If he did write The Rev, why wasn't he questioned at length concerning the interpretation of the book he wrote? The early church fathers had ample time to question him when he supposively returned from Patmos, to Ephesus. And furthermore, one the 7 letters he supposively sent, was to that very same Ephesus church that he supposively returned to. Yet, none of those church members were even the slightest bit curious as to the meanings of what he wrote in the book he sent them. The church fathers were as clueless about the symbolism in the book as we are today. Even all the scholars, throughout history to this day, including the early church fathers, aren't really sure which "John" wrote the book of Rev. They're not even sure in agreement WHEN it was written. Some say it was written in the 60's AD, while others claim the 90's AD. Doesn't this all seem somewhat odd? It sure does to me. John the Beloved Apostle was considered the author of Rev because of one statement Christ made concerning him. Ad-libbing, Christ said, "If I were to have John tarry until I come, what is that to you?". So no one knows for sure who wrote the book, or when. John the Beloved was dogmatically assigned the author of the book from the earliest days. And that has been the dogma ever since. Frankly, a pre-millennial futurist trying to discuss future prophecies with a preterists / historist / post-millennialist, who interprets everything figuratively and / or metophorically ( which is a great way to interpret anything prophetic because you can assign almost any interpretation to scripture, in any way you see fit ), is like a Buddist discussing religion with a Jew....apples and oranges. Frankly, Preterism is a doctrine of the past that is widely considered in error and outdated, especially since the return of The Jews to Palestine in '48. But, I'm sure you know that....

Bold'...may I be so bold... Ah yes. You subscribe to the great "U-Turn" theory. Exactly when do the assembled saints have time to attend the wedding supper of The Lamb in Heaven if they are raptured ( sorry for the terminology, but most people know what I'm talking about who discuss these things ) on the last day? According to you, the Elect are gathered, rise in the air, change their bodies, change their clothes into white linens, mount horses, and turn and go back to earth....alll in the twinkling of an eye. Unfortunately it is not. Rev 14 clearly shows that The Harvest precedes the wrath of God. John also positioned the chapters of His wrath ( 15 & 16 ) immediately after chapter 14 - which discusses the GT followed by The Rapture, followed by His Wrath. And I could cite numerous other references of this same orientation, but won't. Incidentally, terms like "rapture"," The AC", etc., are not truely included in The Bible, I agree, and are merely short forms of longer scriptural references to make conversing or debating these issues easier to discuss. To make a federal case of their illegitimate use in any discussion of prophecy is picayune at best, and deflects from the central core issues being discussed. Everyone who studies prophecy knows what these terms mean. I agree with Peter's statement here, and always have. He is basically saying that any prophetic scripture, reserved for inclusion in the bible canon as written by any disciple of Christ, in the form it is presented to us, is not subject to question, and was not conceived by the authors. I agree with this. However, Peter is NOT REFERRING TO Christians trying to understand the symbolism of the written prophecy. If he were, then he would violate the reason for it's inclusion in the Bible in the first place. Of course we can study it, and try and surmise it's intent and definitions. To say we can't, is utterly absurd. To say we are condemned if we interpret it wrong, and through discussion, present our interpretive beliefs as to their meanings, is also absurd. Sorry about that. The early church fathers were wrong on other issues too, especially the interpretation of The Revelation. ....which seems odd to me considering they had access to John before his death in Ephesus. Hey, maybe John the Beloved didn't write The Rev?! Maybe it was a different John...that's what I think. Well then, you're espousing a Preterist's and/or Historist's POV. I may be a modalist, but you never addressed how Christ could stand before The Father in Rev 5:6 & 7, and literally take the scroll from his Father. Is God playing solitaire in this scene? Whoa! If you think Gog is Satan, and the man of sin is Gog, then you have a postulate here that I have never heard of before in my 35 years of studying end time prophecy....that's a new one on me. Not all Christian denominations - mainstream denominations that is - believe in the trinity doctrine. Sorry that I agree with them. I see the three as separate, but of one mind....set....otherwise Rev 5:6 & 7 should confuse us.....

My emphasis in bold. First, Paul is referring to "The Gathering", or The Rapture, in 2 Thess 2:1-3. Secondly, he is saying that The Gathering of the Elect will not come until the AntiChrist is revealed as sitting on the throne of God. So, unless the AntiChrist FIRST sits on the throne of God, then The Rapture cannot take place. In other words, the AC first sits on the throne, AND THEN, AND NOT UNTIL AFTER THAT, will The Rapture take place. Obviously, as a pre-tribber, you believe that those people posing as Christians, and who are left behind, must somehow gain worthiness with God, through works, rather than through grace, to be counted worthy to enter the Kingdom? Just exactly when are these "second-chance" Christians going to be collected into the kingdom, if The Gathering has already taken place? I believe when Paul says the "Day of Christ", he is literally referring to Christ's Appearing and NOT the "Day of The Lord". The gathering, or synagoguing, together of the Believers is a last day event. Jesus says so. Also, you KEEP inserting antichrist into a passage where the word is not used. Don't you know there is a curse upon those who do that? You can't change the Scripture to suit your theology. Furthermore, the Day of the LORD and the Day of Christ ARE THE SAME. Jesus Christ IS Lord. There is no other Lord from which He must be distinguished. First of all, my "bent" is a post-trib, mid-week, pre-wrath rapturist POV. And I have every right to defend that POV, especially when I consider the pre-trib rapture / Doctrine of Imminency, as the greatest lie ever propagated by this end times church. And that interpretation suggests that the Rapture is indeed, NOT A LAST DAY EVENT.If you disagree with what I've interpreted, and stated, then by all means you can ignore it, deny it, or refute it. Secondly, if the "man of sin" who commits the Abomination of Desolation, as described by Paul, is not the AC, then who do you say he is? Prophetic scripture elsewhere clearly defines who the AC is, and what atrocities he commits. And there should be no confusion as to the who and what Paul is referring-to in 2 Thess 2, by anyone. BTW, I am cursed no more than anyone - including you - who attempts to distinguish The Truth from prophetic scripture. I do not hold to a trinity doctrine, as God being three entities. I believe that God, The Father, Christ, The Son, and the Holy Spirit are separate entities, with the same mindset. Otherwise, the Lamb couldn't stand simultaneously before The Father who is on the throne in The Rev. In my opinion, the day of the Lord, and the day of Christ are not the same thing. You have every right to disagree with my belief.....

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, -2 Thessalonians 2:3 Alley1979 wrote: My emphasis in bold. First, Paul is referring to "The Gathering", or The Rapture, in 2 Thess 2:1-3. Secondly, he is saying that The Gathering of the Elect will not come until the AntiChrist is revealed as sitting on the throne of God. So, unless the AntiChrist FIRST sits on the throne of God, then The Rapture cannot take place. In other words, the AC first sits on the throne, AND THEN, AND NOT UNTIL AFTER THAT, will The Rapture take place. Obviously, as a pe-tribber, you believe that those people posing as Christians, and who are left behind, must somehow gain worthiness with God, through works, rather than through grace, to be counted worthy to enter the Kingdom? Just exactly when are these "second-chance" Christians going to be collected into the kingdom, if The Gathering has already taken place? I believe when Paul says the "Day of Christ", he is literally referring to Christ's Appearing and NOT the "Day of The Lord".

In Matthew 24, when Christ sends the angels to gather His elect, where one man in the field is taken, and one woman working in the mill is taken, do you suppose these are wicked? If so, why is He warning that we must be ready? Christ sheds more light on this in the next parable. The five wise virgins that were ready are taken by the Bridegroom, do you also suppose that they are wicked as well? rT , I don't understand how you are getting that the ones taken are the elect. In Noah's day the wicked were taken & taken by surprise as seen in Matt 24:38,39.~For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating & drinking, marrying & giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Noah wasn't the one that "knew not" what was coming. The verse says that it will be the same at the end; so since the wicked were taken in Noah's day, the wicked will also be taken at the end. Noah was warned before the judgement & we have been too. Hi Deb, No doubt, this is a very complex mystery and Christ intended it to be that way on purpose. It's important to understand that right after He mentioned sending the angels to gather His elect, He gave a series of parables to serve as clues. These are not just cute little stories. Parables are not intended to be taken literally either, although some parts of them may happen literally. They were given to give us understanding of something He said previously, as they contain very important and well hidden clues. I'm not going to go too far into this here, but I believe you'll see what I mean when my book comes out, which is now in the final stages of production. More of the same here. I believe the gathering of the elect is so confusing and controversial because the parables that Christ used has caused a great stumbling block to scholars, yet they hold secrets about the kingdom of heaven that have been hidden since the foundation of the world. Have you ever noticed that when teachers teach about the rapture or second coming in Matthew 24, they all of a sudden get stopped dead in their tracks when they reach the parables, especially in chapter 25? Why is that? It seems funny that many scholars claim He was talking about the rapture, as many others say it is the second coming. Who is right and how do we reach the truth? They each give their own version of why they believe this or that, but none of them can prove their claims. Actually, Jesus mentioned both, the rapture and the second coming when He gave His answer, yet scholars are still arguing over this to this day. In Matthew 24:3, the disciples asked Him a question pertaining to, when will these things be, and what shall be the sign of your coming and the end of the world or age? Have you ever noticed that Christ began answering that question in verse (4), but He did not stop at the end of chapter 24, which is where all of our scholars stop. No, He continues His answer all the way through chapter 25, through all of the parables and He doesn't finish answering this question until verse (1) in chapter 26, which even states that He had, in fact, finished His answer. Anyone can interpret a parable, but not everyone interprets them correctly. But it gets even more difficult, because to understand the answer He gave, you have to interpret (all of them) correctly, and when you do this, all of these parables are compatable with each other and the flow like a river. On the other hand, if you get something wrong, the parables appear unrelated, and not only that, but they also won't match what you believe about the gathering of His elect. There's quite a bit to this, so I'm only going to go so far here. But I believe I will be the first to go all the way through these parables and have my interpretation agree with my beliefs about the gathering of His elect. He has given me the keys to unlock the hidden meanings in the parables. I know that may sound daring and even very bold, but I'm prepared to let my book prove this. I believe this is why the Lord told me I was going to write, in the summer of 1989. I also believe the message He has given me, is for the final generation that will witness His coming. But be patient, it still has a little ways to go yet. Cheers I believe Christ was talking only about His Appearing at the time of the gathering of the Elect, in his discourses. Christ may have reasoned that that should be enough, because what follows The Rapture on earth is rather inconsequential to Christians. Christians, after their gathering, will be readying themselves for the wedding supper in heaven. I believe Christ told us all we need to know in his discourses, relative to what shall transpire prior to His Appearing. And it is clear we shall suffer Great tribulation before we are raptured. Christ may have also reasoned that there would be no need to discuss what shall come after his appearing, in his discourses, because he had prior knowledge that The Revelation would be composed after his discourses. ....why repeat the wrath of God and his 2nd coming twice, especially if christians aren't going to be on earth during that time? Just my two cents....

Sorry if it came across that way, and yes you are right, I am defensive. If you trawl back into past posts I have made about miracles I have seen and experienced with my own eyes in Mozambique and in my family you might see why. In one I was almost but not directly accused of defrauding a bank. The inference was there. The eventual result was that I could prove it was God at work, but still the skeptics. It is probably something I should work on. What is, is, and we should not be concerned about telling the world or believers about His awesome deeds. See I believe in signs and wonders, and don't believe they have ever stopped. There are those who would disagree. Anyone who truly has Faith, does not need to see these type things with their own eyes. By the same token, anyone who has Faith HAS seen miracles work in their own lives. Let that be sufficient, I say. Everyone is called to a different witness. In the meantime, consider what Christ said concerning who were not around to witness the miracles he performed. He said ( adlibbing here ) that is was much easier for those who witnessed his miracles, and heard him talking, to have Faith in Him, then it was for those who did not see him or hear him directly.

Yes, but by that same standard, Lazarus cannot die twice either. If I may add my two cents here.... Is it possible the OT saints rose with Christ on his death, whilest, The Rapture in our future is strictly for NT saints? Is there any scripture that could support this idea? Maybe that could justify why the "souls under the altar" in Rev 6:9, who btw, were "slain for the word of God" could be where they were. Christ's name never figures into that passage. Furthermore, wasn't Christ quoted as saying that the thief would be in paradise that day with Christ ( I know some disagree with this ) ? Personally, I believe anyone risen from the dead MUST have ascended to at least the 2nd heaven with their new bodies. This would be in keeping with Christ's example when he told Mary not to touch him because he hadn't ascended yet.

I believe the GWTJ is specifically for those who were not received in heaven as the pre-millennium saved. It is possible the pre-millennium dead - whose names are not in the Book of Life - will also be judged at this time as well. Isaiah sheds light on what it will be like on earth during the MK, and it's clear life will continue as always....with the HUGE exception that Christ and his ruling Saints will be in-charge of the nations and people of earth.With this in-mind, it is hard to believe there will be evil doers during the reign of Christ, with the exception of those who side with Satan when he's released to corrupt the nations near the end of the MK. Maybe we've been provided minimum info on this part of the completion of God's grand plan because maybe it doesn't concern us at this time, on this side of the millennium. Just my two cents....

There are many places in scripture that liken angels to saints, and vise versa. I personally think this is a clue, or hint dropped on us in The Revelation and elsewhere as to our true identities. Check out the following: Saints or Angels? Which is It? Psm 68:17 - The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place. Angels come with Christ at Armageddon. Mt 16:27 - For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Angels come with Christ at Armageddon. Mt 25:31 - When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Angels come with Christ at Armageddon. 2 Thess 1:7 - And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, Angels come with Christ at Armageddon. Jude 1:14 - And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, Saints come with Christ at Armageddon. Rev 19:14 - And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Saints come with Christ at Armageddon, in robes, clean and white. Zec 14:5 - and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Saints come with Christ at Armageddon. How Does Anyone Write Letters to Angels? Rev 2:1 - Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; 8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; 12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; 18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; 7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceansa write; Personally, I think our first domain were as angels in heaven, and we are now here temporarily as incarnate angels. I have more to show if you wish....

I could prove that only 1 in 100 professed christians in this generation will be found worthy of inclusion in the kingdom, based on currently and estimated world population figures, current and estimated christian population numbers, the 10,000 x 10,000 angels in heaven, and dates derived from interjection of godly numbers into the times quote ( times, times and 1/2 a time ) in Daniel & The Revelation. But, for the sake of the peace on this board by not bringing up controversial issues, I'll waive that proof. Suffice to say, I accept your opinion....you wouldn't believe me anyway....

I prefer to believe that God WITHHOLDS HIS PROTECTION from nations who have done evil, allowing nature to take it's course....be that nature man-initiated or environmentally-initiated. As to America repenting: Forget it! America must first recognize that they are committing evil against God before they are willing to repent. Seventy-five percent of Americans say they believe in God, yet 75% of that group will fail to witness for Christ come trib time. Bottom line: We are a nation living carelessly towards God ( see Ezk 39:6 )

Many of the early church fathers had no clue of end time matters, whether they used Enoch's prophecies or not. See Acts 1:6 & 7 Furthermore, if John of Patmos was indeed John the Beloved, why was he not questioned at length by the early Church fathers concerning his penning of The Revelation? Indeed, John the beloved continued his ministry in Asia Minor after his supposive stint on Patmos. My guess is the John who wrote The Revelation was not John the Beloved. Therefore, the early church fathers were as mystified about end time matters as anyone was....or is... Some ( not all, by no means ) of the early church fathers errantly set misleading end time doctrine that has contributed to confusion on end time prophecies to this day. Rather than passing on matters they did not truly understand, some of the early church fathers, like the "prophecy experts" of today, felt compelled to offer an interpretation on end time prophecy when they would have been better served to pass on any interpretation.

The Book of Enoch should not be used as scriptural proof for any POV or theory. Sorry, but the vast majority of Christians living in today's end time generation, were not raised on a book that was not included in most Bibles. Same with the Essenes, and the dead sea scrolls. God did not allow for one reference, period, from Christ or others, in The Bible concerning the Essenes. And The Essenes were absolutlely in existence at the time of Christ. Therefore, their books should not be used as proof of anything.

Prophecy states ( to me ) that America's days are numbered. I live in America, and you can bet, if my life and my family are threatened by illicit forces, and I can do something about it, I will not hesitate to act. However, it may be that America may succumb to The Mark of the AC. And if that's the case, I know what I'm going to do.

Oldzimm, your statement concerning America can be summed-up in the serenity prayer. Wisdom here may be to put your faith in Christ and forget about national alliances.

I agree. We all best agree to disagree until the time come when God sends his messenger to set us all straight.

Thanks Mizz for your input. It is implied By many statements in chapter 7 that these four kingdoms are in existence at the time of the end. And mystery Babylon cannot be America...unless America is symbolized by a Golden Chalice, which the whore holds. There's only one organization on earth at this time that is symbolized by a golden chalice. None the same, I accept your understanding on this issue, and will leave it at that.... Best in Christ, AM

Hi Annie- As the end time events approach, and as we are living in the season of Christ's appearing and return, it is time to switch our allegiences from nationalities to God. As Christ said, " Yield unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's". No one can have more love of country than I, but, the country I once knew is no more. You can hold out hope that it will magically return to it's former glory, or you can accept what you cannot change, or accept what has been prophesied, or live in denial. Truth is: even in her "hayday", America was still a nation that worshipped mammon until we had to refocus to attend to whatever urgency threatened us. References to America can be found in the pages of Daniel, specifically:the four beasts vision of Chapter 7, with America described symbolically in Dan 7:4 & 12. These four symbolic beasts are nations at the time of the end. There are more references, but I'll leave you with that. And no, America is not Babylon The Great.

Why does everyone continue to hope that America will return to her roots? Fact is: America is prophesied to be "diminished in power", and her citizens have brought this upon themselves. Fact is: the foundation of faith is the family. Currently, parents are not instilling in their children the fear of the Lord, or the knowledge of right and wrong; good and evil. It is said," teach them in the way they should go and they will never depart from it". Truth being, as parents, we Americans have grown spoiled in our freedoms, and listened to too many liberal intents, and have failed our parenting responsibility to instill in our children the knowledge of Jesus Christ and The Faith. We ONLY are to blame for what is happening in America. We are a nation of people who, jaded by our own good fortunes, have turned-away from the Lord and are constantly seeking pleasures, as a nation living in denial of God and / or carelessly towards God. As a result, God has lifted his protection from us. He is not bringing down judgment on us, because frankly, Satan is good at doing that. We need to stop living in denial that this country has lost it's way in the desert of the world. We exist in a new wilderness. Yet there is a multitude of Americans who have listened to Christ and are holding true to The Faith until the end. It is those true believers who will be protected by the Lord. DO NOT foolishly put your faith into America any longer. Rather, put your faith into the One who allowed her to rise to her greatness in years past, and who is also the same One who has lifted his protection from her for her carelessness towards him. America as we once knew it in her greatness, IS HISTORY. Redirect your hope! Join the worldly Brotherhood of Faith! Therein lies our real allegiance, from here on in, especially as we move forward towards the fulfillment of the end time events. For those that will be found worthy to come into the kingdom shall come from every people, tribe, kindred, tongue, ethnic group and nation on earth. Stand fast in your faith to the very end!