apologia828

Point For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Romans 1:16-18 By Point For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23 ____________ _________ ______ ___ What~! For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 2 Corinthians 11:4 You Think And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:15-17 It Is Just Brother Saul's Musings We Read? Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. Ephesians 5:1-7 ____________ _________ ______ ___ Believe For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 And Be Blessed Beloved For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:17-18 Love, Joe I'm really not sure what your point is because of strange way of writing. I find it to be more confusing than effective but maybe that's just me. Anyway, I wanted to actually respond to Chesterton once more. I just noticed that you referred to Romans 9:15,18 as saying that God can have mercy on who He will which is actually an alteration of the text.The text shows us that He mercies (a verb in the Greek) whom He will and hardens whom He will not just that He can. He actually does this. He chose to have mercy on Moses and not on Pharaoh. Or are you saying that those He hardened He also mercied? And please don't get me wrong. I don't believe God directly hardened Pharaoh's heart but since all he could do as a sinner was go against God all God had to do to "harden his heart" is withhold His mercy and grace and Pharaoh would on his own accord play the part God had raised him up for.

Sorry, I kinda messed up the last post. I don't know how to use the multi-quote.

1. I too believe that God is merciful and just. If you believe it to be unfair for God to sovereignly choose those who would be saved then here is what the apostle Paul has already stated in response to your objection: Romans 9:14-16 14 What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 15 For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. HCSB That's Paul not me. Therefore if God decides to save one and not another it's up to Him. Again you may not like it but it's what Scripture teaches. 2. This is not a biblical argument but I'll go along with it. It won't be good news for those who love sin. Remember, the darkness hated the light. They don't want to be with God and especially don't want to submit to Him nor can they (Romans 8:7-8). However, regardless of what sinners think it is good news. What is the good news? That Christ would die for His church paying the penalty for their sins and resurrect from the dead conquering death. Unfortunately, Paul clearly states: Rom 9:22 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: ASV Notice I am attempting to harmonize Scripture by placing them together to understand the full idea. For example: Jn 3:16 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. ASV And... Act 13:48 48 And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. ASV Who is the whosoever (actually "those believing" in the Greek) that believe? Those who had been ordained to eternal life. 3. I realize this is complex but I've already provided a number of examples from Scripture that are very clear. Here are two. Who killed Jesus? Isaiah 53:10 10 Yet the LORD was pleased to crush Him severely. When You make Him a restitution offering, He will see His seed, He will prolong His days, and by His hand, the Lord’s pleasure will be accomplished. HCSB Act 4:27-28 27 “For, in fact, in this city both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, assembled together against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place. HCSB God used Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel as secondary means to carry out His plan. They did evil but God did good. We also see something interesting in 1 Samuel 16:14-15 14 Now the Spirit of the Lord had left Saul, and an evil spirit sent from the Lord began to torment him, 15 so Saul’s servants said to him, “You see that an evil spirit from God is tormenting you. HCSB Who sent this evil Spirit that frustrated Saul so much that later on he attempts to kill David? The text clearly say it was sent from the Lord. As I've often told my students, satan is just a dog on a chain. This is what Scripture reveals to us regardless of whether we are comfortable with it or not. Paul tells us that God will have mercy on whom he will. What else does Paul tell us? Romans 11 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Rom. 5:18 Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. 1 Cor 15:21 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ. 1 Tim 2:3,4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. Ok, so are you saying that the Scriptures I quoted are contradicting the Scriptures you quoted? Please observe the big difference I have been trying to point out between our two responses. I put forth much effort in providing the context and exegesis for the Scriptures that I quoted and all I get in return is a string of verses that appear to contradict the verses I quoted. If you disagree with my interpretation of the passages cited then you need to demonstrate why that interpretation is invalid because I can demonstrate how those verses are in complete harmony with one another. Paul also tells us God will have mercy on all men? So all men will be saved? It doesn't sound that way in the rest of the passage. Look at verse 22. Rom 9:22 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: ASV The text clearly is speaking about mercy in regards to eternal salvation. To deny that is to take the entire chapter out of context.

1. I too believe that God is merciful and just. If you believe it to be unfair for God to sovereignly choose those who would be saved then here is what the apostle Paul has already stated in response to your objection: Romans 9:14-16 14 What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 15 For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. HCSB That's Paul not me. Therefore if God decides to save one and not another it's up to Him. Again you may not like it but it's what Scripture teaches. 2. This is not a biblical argument but I'll go along with it. It won't be good news for those who love sin. Remember, the darkness hated the light. They don't want to be with God and especially don't want to submit to Him nor can they (Romans 8:7-8). However, regardless of what sinners think it is good news. What is the good news? That Christ would die for His church paying the penalty for their sins and resurrect from the dead conquering death. Unfortunately, Paul clearly states: Rom 9:22 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: ASV Notice I am attempting to harmonize Scripture by placing them together to understand the full idea. For example: Jn 3:16 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. ASV And... Act 13:48 48 And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. ASV Who is the whosoever (actually "those believing" in the Greek) that believe? Those who had been ordained to eternal life. 3. I realize this is complex but I've already provided a number of examples from Scripture that are very clear. Here are two. Who killed Jesus? Isaiah 53:10 10 Yet the LORD was pleased to crush Him severely. When You make Him a restitution offering, He will see His seed, He will prolong His days, and by His hand, the Lord’s pleasure will be accomplished. HCSB Act 4:27-28 27 “For, in fact, in this city both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, assembled together against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place. HCSB God used Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel as secondary means to carry out His plan. They did evil but God did good. We also see something interesting in 1 Samuel 16:14-15 14 Now the Spirit of the Lord had left Saul, and an evil spirit sent from the Lord began to torment him, 15 so Saul’s servants said to him, “You see that an evil spirit from God is tormenting you. HCSB Who sent this evil Spirit that frustrated Saul so much that later on he attempts to kill David? The text clearly say it was sent from the Lord. As I've often told my students, satan is just a dog on a chain. This is what Scripture reveals to us regardless of whether we are comfortable with it or not. Paul tells us that God will have mercy on whom he will. What else does Paul tell us? Romans 11 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Rom. 5:18 Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. 1 Cor 15:21 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ. 1 Tim 2:3,4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. Ok, so are you saying that the Scriptures I quoted are contradicting the Scriptures you quoted? Please observe the big difference I have been trying to point out between our two responses. I put forth much effort in providing the context and exegesis for the Scriptures that I quoted and all I get in return is a string of verses that appear to contradict the verses I quoted. If you disagree with my interpretation of the passages cited then you need to demonstrate why that interpretation is invalid because I can demonstrate how those verses are in complete harmony with one another.

Dearest Faithful One from Lakeside ... This verse is recognized by almost everyone to be an addition by some over-zealous monk or scribe, so I wouldn't use it for any kind of proof of anything. So your saying that the word of God is Fallible. Because by saying that one scripture/verse is corrupted you are saying that all of the word of God could be corrupted. You should re-think your position on Christ because to say that God is not powerful enough to keep his word intact, with integrety shows your lack of the belief that God is all powerful. And for you to teach that any part of the word of God is corrupted is a sin. Because the word of God is perfect with no corrupted additions and it doesn't matter what is "recognized by almost everyone" to be corrupted because whom ever says that is wrong. So Faithfulone you got it right. There was nothing wrong with useing that verse at all. God is One with three entities or distinct personalities A true Christian who trully loves God would never teach that any verse is corrupted in any way shape or form. I do agree that in this day and time that there are some versions of the bible that are corrupted but to teach that any verse is corrupted with no corresponding verse to show the difference or proof of that corruption is to say that God allowed that verse to be corrupted from the gitgo and that my friends is corrupted teaching. That is apostacy at it's best. It is all or none. I'm not trying to be rude but have you studied textual criticism? If you have you would know that there are many variations within the multitude of English translations. The original Greek is perfect. In regards to the Comme Johanneum (1 John 5:7) Dr. James White writes the following: "The Comma Johanneum is extremely important. Here we have a phrase that everyone will admit is manifestly orthodox. What it says is obviously true. Yet, we are in no way dependent upon the phrase for our knowledge of the Trinity or the unity of the three Persons: Father, Son, and Spirit. The doctrine of the Trinity does not stand or fall upon the inclusion of the Comma. Beyond this, however, we have a phrase that is simply not a part of the ancient Greek manuscripts of John’s first epistle. The few manuscripts that contain the phrase are very recent, and half of these have the reading written in the margin. The phrase appears only in certain of the Latin versions." The King James Only Controversy, James White Basically, soGrateful was not saying it's corrupted. Just that it shouldn't actually be part of the text since it is not found in the oldest Greek manuscripts. I was always doubtful of the NIV but they were totally accurate in not including this in the text. We need to be honest with this text. Although it is totally true, the reality is it shouldn't be there. I hope this was helpful. God bless!

1. I too believe that God is merciful and just. If you believe it to be unfair for God to sovereignly choose those who would be saved then here is what the apostle Paul has already stated in response to your objection: Romans 9:14-16 14 What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 15 For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. HCSB That's Paul not me. Therefore if God decides to save one and not another it's up to Him. Again you may not like it but it's what Scripture teaches. 2. This is not a biblical argument but I'll go along with it. It won't be good news for those who love sin. Remember, the darkness hated the light. They don't want to be with God and especially don't want to submit to Him nor can they (Romans 8:7-8). However, regardless of what sinners think it is good news. What is the good news? That Christ would die for His church paying the penalty for their sins and resurrect from the dead conquering death. Unfortunately, Paul clearly states: Rom 9:22 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: ASV Notice I am attempting to harmonize Scripture by placing them together to understand the full idea. For example: Jn 3:16 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. ASV And... Act 13:48 48 And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. ASV Who is the whosoever (actually "those believing" in the Greek) that believe? Those who had been ordained to eternal life. 3. I realize this is complex but I've already provided a number of examples from Scripture that are very clear. Here are two. Who killed Jesus? Isaiah 53:10 10 Yet the LORD was pleased to crush Him severely. When You make Him a restitution offering, He will see His seed, He will prolong His days, and by His hand, the Lord’s pleasure will be accomplished. HCSB Act 4:27-28 27 “For, in fact, in this city both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, assembled together against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place. HCSB God used Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel as secondary means to carry out His plan. They did evil but God did good. We also see something interesting in 1 Samuel 16:14-15 14 Now the Spirit of the Lord had left Saul, and an evil spirit sent from the Lord began to torment him, 15 so Saul’s servants said to him, “You see that an evil spirit from God is tormenting you. HCSB Who sent this evil Spirit that frustrated Saul so much that later on he attempts to kill David? The text clearly say it was sent from the Lord. As I've often told my students, satan is just a dog on a chain. This is what Scripture reveals to us regardless of whether we are comfortable with it or not.

The text states that everything is decided by God's will so your argument is invalid. You would need to prove how, in light of what it actually says, man has a free will separate from or not previously determined by the will of God. I'm looking at what the text plainly states. The question is not where does it say we don't have free will. Let me restate that we do have a will, just not an autonomous free will. Our will is in submission to God's sovereign will for as the text says, He works EVERYTHING according to HIS will. Why the Son was tempted is best explained in Hebrews. Christ humbled Himself and was tempted just like us as a high priest who can relate to our sufferings. However, this issue is actually not a mystery because of God's sovereign will but because of the divinity of Christ. We know from Scripture that He was tempted but being God incarnate are we to say that Jesus could have actually sinned? God forbid! God hates sin and would never fall into it no matter how strong the temptation therefore this point is also invalid. I'm not exactly sure what your second point is. It seems your asking what the point in this debate is in relation to being a good Christian. Well, I'll just say that as a believer in the doctrines of grace our as most often referred to, Calvinism, understanding these concepts have blown up my view of God in a good way. Beginning with the act of salvation God has created and ordained such an amazing and perfect plan that often times I just sit back in awe. This understanding allows glory to be given to God in all things (Soli Deo Gloria). It also gives the believer an incredible security and comfort knowing that no matter how bad things may seem our God is in complete control. However, the most important thing is as always love. To love God and our neighbors. When I look at the way God loved me it makes me want to follows and love Him more!

Ok, please read over my last couple of posts once more and Ephesians 1:11b since this was the primary text I used. My answer is there. Let me know if you still have trouble understanding. I'm not giving a yes or no answer because I think it's of the utmost importance here to understand this within the context of all of Scripture. In other words, you can't answer this simple question. Lol. Wow! I had attempted to give you a more in-depth answer than just a yes our no question but since you're just looking for the easy answer. No, God does not want anyone to sin against Him HOWEVER, the fall was predetermined by God according to His will of decree so that He could later demonstrate His love by sending His Son to die. For example, a parent (a loving parent) does not desire to see their child screaming in pain during a medical operation but they are able to see the beneficial outcome once it's all over. This is what I have been demonstrating through Scripture therefore it's up to you to decide whether you will believe in what the Scriptures say or your own personal philosophy. Eph 1:11 11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will, HCSB I will continue to quote this verse until someone demonstrates how events like the fall are not to be included in the word everything.

It Was Satan's Will That Adam Die Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44 And It Is God's Will The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all kI should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 That Whosoever Will, Will Believe For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 _____________ _________ ______ ___ Won't You Believe Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25-26 And Be Blessed Beloved Love, Joe Citing a collection of prooftexts doesn't actually prove your point. I've given extensive reasoning to demonstrate that God uses secondary means such as satan to accomplish His plans and purposes. I agree with every Scripture you quoted for I believe all Scripture to be God-breathed. Therefore, I think it's only fair that someone interacts with my comments and attempts to demonstrate why they believe I am wrongly interpreting these particular passages. If this is not able to be performed then my interpretation still remains accurate. Please brothers, think upon these issues and actually read the arguments presented.

Ok, please read over my last couple of posts once more and Ephesians 1:11b since this was the primary text I used. My answer is there. Let me know if you still have trouble understanding. I'm not giving a yes or no answer because I think it's of the utmost importance here to understand this within the context of all of Scripture.

Since you are basically presenting the same question here as you are in the Calvinism/Arminianism thread I'm going to answer the question here. The question you posed was, did God want Adam and Eve to sin? But before I even get into that I would like to point out again the complete lack of interaction with the multitude of texts plus interpretation that I have provided. It demonstrates the fact that one side is providing a biblical response and the other a philosophical one. None of my objections have actually been responded to, neither here or in the Calvinism thread. Although I believe Ephesians 1:11 answers this question in a general sense, it doesn't give us the full story. The big question is this, was the plan of God to redeem mankind put into action based upon whether Adam and Eve would fall or not? Therefore, had they not sinned God wouldn't have sent His Son to die on the cross as the greatest display of God's love and mercy towards mankind. Does God desire man to sin? No, but has He ordained it as part of His plan, yes. We can't deny this when looking at some of the Scriptures I've already cited such as the case with Joseph and his brothers, the case in which God orders an evil spirit to torment Saul, or in the case of the murder of His One and Only Son! As further evidence of this look at what Proverbs 16:4 says (shocked me quite a bit the first time I saw it). 4 The Lord has prepared everything for His purpose — even the wicked for the day of disaster. HCSB This verse couldn't be more to the point. What has the Lord prepared for His purpose? EVERYTHING. Even the wicked He had created with a specific intention. This passage fits perfectly with what Paul says many years later in Romans 9:21-22. 21 Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor? 22 And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction? HCSB If Adam and Eve did not fall we have a world free from contamination of sin and therefore no objects of wrath for God to demonstrate His wrath upon and make His power known. I realize these are not easy answers. How can we understand the responsibility of man in relation to the sovereignty of God? I can't really answer that, but do we see both in Scripture? Yes. I am commanded to be holy and although I am a sinner and cannot attain holiness without the grace of God and the work of the Holy Spirit, I will do everything I can to follow God's commands. Although God puts in me the will and the doing (all Him), I have to guard my salvation with fear and trembling. That's why I continue to say we serve an amazing and impressive God, a God who does all things according to His purpose!

Since you are basically presenting the same question here as you are in the Calvinism/Arminianism thread I'm going to answer the question here. The question you posed was, did God want Adam and Eve to sin? But before I even get into that I would like to point out again the complete lack of interaction with the multitude of texts plus interpretation that I have provided. It demonstrates the fact that one side is providing a biblical response and the other a philosophical one. None of my objections have actually been responded to, neither here or in the Calvinism thread. Although I believe Ephesians 1:11 answers this question in a general sense, it doesn't give us the full story. The big question is this, was the plan of God to redeem mankind put into action based upon whether Adam and Eve would fall or not? Therefore, had they not sinned God wouldn't have sent His Son to die on the cross as the greatest display of God's love and mercy towards mankind. Does God desire man to sin? No, but has He ordained it as part of His plan, yes. We can't deny this when looking at some of the Scriptures I've already cited such as the case with Joseph and his brothers, the case in which God orders an evil spirit to torment Saul, or in the case of the murder of His One and Only Son! As further evidence of this look at what Proverbs 16:4 says (shocked me quite a bit the first time I saw it). 4 The Lord has prepared everything for His purpose — even the wicked for the day of disaster. HCSB This verse couldn't be more to the point. What has the Lord prepared for His purpose? EVERYTHING. Even the wicked He had created with a specific intention. This passage fits perfectly with what Paul says many years later in Romans 9:21-22. 21 Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor? 22 And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction? HCSB If Adam and Eve did not fall we have a world free from contamination of sin and therefore no objects of wrath for God to demonstrate His wrath upon and make His power known. I realize these are not easy answers. How can we understand the responsibility of man in relation to the sovereignty of God? I can't really answer that, but do we see both in Scripture? Yes. I am commanded to be holy and although I am a sinner and cannot attain holiness without the grace of God and the work of the Holy Spirit, I will do everything I can to follow God's commands. Although God puts in me the will and the doing (all Him), I have to guard my salvation with fear and trembling. That's why I continue to say we serve an amazing and impressive God, a God who does all things according to His purpose!

I'm going to answer that last question on Adam and Eve in the Isaac (should be Jacob) vs. Esau thread since it is basically the same question. However, I'll repost it here anyways.

Guys, you are not reading the text. It had nothing to do with Esau or Jacob but was according to the election of God. There is no idea here of God looking down the corridor of time and seeing what they would do. That's an example of eisigesis not biblical exegesis. The text says God elects.Gods forms the vessel one to honor another to dishonor. Unless we accept this to be true we cannot say that God is 100% sovereign. So what's it gonna be? Is He a completely sovereign God our not? Do you believe God is too weak to give mankind free will? Wow! Is He too weak to give man free will? Is that really an argument? The Bible teaches that man has a will however that will is always subject to God's. The God of the Bible is an all powerful God who, as it says in Ephesians 1:11, "worketh all things after the counsel of his will". You'll notice however that nowhere in Scripture does it say that man has a free will which can override God's will. A God who is not able to save because the man says no. Besides, if you saw someone that was planning to jump off a bridge committing suicide would you just say "oh well, I'd love to save him but I can't override his free will to kill himself"?? I asked the question because you brought up God's sovereignty, as if creating mankind with free will would impact God's sovereignty in some way. So you do think a sovereign God could create mankind with free will. Good! I didn't say that at all. If God gives man a free will apart from His will then He is no longer sovereign, is He? He would then be only partially sovereign but not completely sovereign as the Bible teaches He is. Again, look at Ephesians 1:11. 11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will, HCSB So if God works out everything according to His will then what has man worked out according to his will? Paul says God has done everything. What He is explaining to us is that although we have physically, actually done things it was all prepared or predetermined by God's will.Or do you believe God is not free to exercise total sovereignty over man? Again, I believe man has a will just not one that is free. Remember, the Bible labels us as slaves to sin! We must be freed from our sins just as Israel was freed from captivity to Pharaoh.

I don't see this as being a valid point. Why does the fact that God chose Jacob and not Isaac according to His own election attribute randomness to God? I believe God does all things according to His will as clearly stated in Ephesians 1:11. From your standpoint you can't agree with Ephesians 1:11 because according to your viewpoint man has a "freewill" completely independent from the will of God. I'm not trying to criticize, brother. I'm simply calling for consistency. You brought up the example of Cain and Abel. Great example. Now, lets look at it through the lens of all the Scripture teaches us. Notice, I never said that man does not have a will. He does, but not a freewill. Cain due to the fall was a slave to sin and as it teaches us in Romans, sinners are incapable of pleasing God and must obey sin in it's lusts. Apart from the grace of God all Cain could do was sin. Look at what Roman 8:6-9 says about the sinner: Rom 8:6-9 6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace: 7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be: 8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. ASV Here we see the difference between the sinner and the child of God although we were all born as sinners and continue to be sinners there is still a major difference. The sinner is an enemy of God, is not subject to the law of God, and cannot please God. What's the difference with the believer? One thing. The Spirit of God dwells in them! Grace is the difference and grace my brothers and sisters is 100% undeserved. It has nothing to do with Jacob and Esau, Cain and Abel, or you and your unbelieving neighbor. The difference is the grace of God so that not one of us could boast. God did it all, therefore Gods gets all the glory and His Word calls us to give it to Him. None of us sought God, none of us was good but God who is good had mercy on us! What a God He is! I praise Him even more for His divine election knowing how wretched I am. Just because He has chosen us before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4) and we do not comprehend the reason for His choosing does not make God random. First of all, the original Greek does not say "whosoever" but "that those believing shall not perish". Check it out for yourself but regardless I completely agree with this Scripture. However, those that are the believing were elected to belief through the preaching of the Word. I'm sure you would agree that we should look at all Scriptures that discuss salvation to get a better understanding so let's look at John 3:16 along with two other passages. Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the message of the Lord, and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed. HCSB So yes, I completely agree, whoever believes will receive eternal life but that eternal life was appointed unto them before the foundation of the world. It's right there in the text. The Greek for appointed is τεταγμενοι which means to arrange in an orderly manner, assign, dispose. Another passage to analyze is John 10:25-28. Jn 10:25-28 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believe not: the works that I do in my Father's name, these bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. ASV Does Jesus say you aren't my sheep because you do not believe in me? No, that would be an incorrect reading of the text. He says you don't believe because you are not my sheep. You are not part of my flock! If he had chosen our appointed them then they would believe and would be part of His sheep. As it says in verse 28, "I give them eternal life". If we don't interpret these passages this way then the words elected, appointed, predestined, chosen, foreordained, predetermined mean absolutely nothing and should be removed. Ok, let me just say I am not a hyper-calvinist. I just want to make that clear. I believe God has created and planned all things with one perfect goal in mind. To bring glory to His name! Redemption was a perfect plan for God to demonstrate His awesome love. It is the means He has decided to use to bring His people. We pray in general because 1)it's a command, 2)it's a time of communion our fellowship with the Lord and 3) we pray for things like deliverance from evil because it's a part of God's mean to provide us with that. He will obviously only give us what is of His will but we are told to ask. Lastly, what is the purpose of judgement? I'm not saying that the evil committed by Pharaoh was not actually committed by Pharaoh. He still did it out of the evil desires of his heart and therefore still needs to be punished for that sin eventhough the Lord was in control of the entire event. We see this in other cases for example, when God moves the heart of the Assyrian king to attack Israel in order to punish them, even calling Assyria an axe or razor in the hand of the Lord (Isaiah 7:20). Or when God moved David to take a census, allowing satan to actually tempt David into doing so (2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1) God tempts none however He does uses secondary means to accomplish His will as can also be seen with Job. Had Job's situation happened to us we might have attributed the circumstances entirely to satan's doings however, Job declares God's total sovereignty saying "the Lord gives and the Lord takes away". He is an awesome and powerful God brothers and sisters, so let's give Him the glory and worship that He deserves!