L.J.

Is anyone having problems with chat? The screen is different and responses do not make sense at all. I have no problems anywhere else on the net but here? At 9 Pm my virus program blocked a virus but chat was weird all night last night. Seems fine todaybut was only there for a short time. God blee you all.

Consider it a sign.

Mathijah, if Jesus of the bible is close to accurately described in the bible then I would say he was a good and brave men like Socrates.

Remember that Socrates died a same death due to refusing to accept the wrongful decission of the courts. When I say dame death I mean as an innocent person .Socrates maintained his morals and ethics all the way like Jesus did, no different.

You see I find it hard to believe everything in the bible. However a lots of stuff in the bible is I think spot on truth.

Thanks

Ervin,

You say that Socrates died the same death as Jesus because Socrates was an innocent man. Socrates was not an innocent man. He sinned like we all do. Jesus, on the other hand, did die an innocent man. He committed no sin. Plus Socrates did not die someone else's death. Jesus died a death that we all deserved.

If you believe some things in the bible, but not all of it, how do you distinguish between what is true and what is not true?

I can tell you what I look for in a congregation. I read my bible, I pray and I choose one that as close as possible matches what I see is portrayed in Scripture.

Be careful on jumping into a denomination without having a strong base in the word. One can easily be led astray.

First we have changed the meaning of Tithing.

Tithing literally means 10 percent.

So you can't "tithe" 5 percent. You can't tithe 20 percent. And tithing 10 percent is redundant.

Second, in the New Testament, Christians were from a mix culture. Many were not from the Jewish faith so tithing was foreign to them. What you see in the letters from Paul was to help out when help is needed.

Third, there is nothing wrong with tithing. There is nothing wrong with not tithing. Where the blessing comes is giving 100 percent of our hearts. That is what our Father wants.

While it's true it's not their official creed, you will never get a creed from them. To have a creed would solidify their beliefs and put them in a corner. They want us to believe that Christianity evolves. They want us to believe that they are "radical". Radical literally means root (going back to the basics). The emergent movement is anything but going back to the basics.

I personally think that the emergents will continue to grow. And IMHO one of the reasons for that growth is that we as brothers and sisters in Christ argue over doctrines and theologies and we ourselves won't go back to the root of our faith, which is Jesus Christ Himself and His teachings. And I have been as guilty as anyone else.

Yup, that about sums it up nicely from the studies I had been doing about the Emergent Church. It has not changed, just become more organized. They are trying to merge all the religions in the world into one. For years now, I had thought that this would be the religion that would threaten the Christin faith more then any other. In many ways, i still do. They will not become the militaristic religion, as in the radical Islamic religion, but more in an "all loving" way.

Yet the only mention of love in the above creed is in reference to a book.

Not really ... we read

"I believe that Love Wins and that the divine being will ultimately help us all embrace the divine spark (Imago dei) within all of us so that we can become one with the great mysterious majestic spirit and experience self-actualization, the next evolutionary leap and the life of the ages."

They have been on this site and many others and they approach people with "God is love and is in everyone, sinner or not". Notice the acceptance of everything that is sin, but tears apart all that goes against sin? They also don't like the "theo-capitalist suicide machine".

That's what I mean. Love Wins is a book by Rob Bell. Hence the capital letters. In their creed, that is the only reference to love. They love everybody and everything except people who take the Bible as the Word of God. While sometimes they do bring up some good points, it's usually by chance. About the same chance as a blind squirrel has to finding an acorn.

To be honest, at first I was fascinated by their teachings. But the more I dug into them the more I realized that their "new conversation" was nothing more of an attack on orthodoxy than trying to find the truth.

They practice the religion of Re-.

Re-imagining...

Re-inventing.....

Re-thinking....

Re-visiting.....

How about re-reading. Getting back to the Bible and practicing what it says. Not trying to evaluate it against what we experience in a fallen world.

Yup, that about sums it up nicely from the studies I had been doing about the Emergent Church. It has not changed, just become more organized. They are trying to merge all the religions in the world into one. For years now, I had thought that this would be the religion that would threaten the Christin faith more then any other. In many ways, i still do. They will not become the militaristic religion, as in the radical Islamic religion, but more in an "all loving" way.

Yet the only mention of love in the above creed is in reference to a book.

I agree Candice.

It seems in the effort to be "inclusive" they practice exclusiveness to the Truth.

Found this on another forum. Not sure it's true but does seem to be the case...

"Finally... The Emergent Church Creed (from LetterOfMarque.us):

I believe, but not with absolute certainty,

in a majestic mysterious divine being who cannot be comprehended,

the initiator of Darwinian Evolution.

And in Jesus, whom we agree to follow with a humble hermeneutic,

who was conceived by the Mother Spirit (aka Sarayu from The Shack)

born of Mary who probably wasn’t a virgin (it really wouldn't matter if she was or wasn’t)

who was crucified under Pontius Pilate

in order to expose the evils of the Roman Empire and motivate us to defect

from all Imperial framing stories.

On the third day He/She rose in the hearts of His/Her followers (getting hung up in Modernist arguments for or against Jesus' bodily resurrection entirely misses the point and the beauty of the resurrection narratives)

He/She ascended into heaven and

He/She is dreaming and hoping that we’ll follow His/Her examples

of feeding the poor, embracing the “other” and non-violent passive resistance

and thereby dismantle the theo-capitalist suicide machine and

create an economically sustainable and socially just Kingdom of God on Earth (aka Global Marxist Socialism)

so that He/She can return, glorify us and give us all a big group hug.

I believe the mysterious divine being embraces all of us in community

through questions and conversations. (Answers are not needed and only impede the journey.)

Homosexuality is a gift to be embraced instead of a sin to be repented of,

and that there are also followers of god in the way of Allah, Buddha, and Vishnu.

I believe that Love Wins and

that the divine being will ultimately help us all embrace the divine spark (Imago dei) within all of us so that we can become one with the great mysterious majestic spirit

and experience self-actualization, the next evolutionary leap and the life of the ages.

Peace out.

Namaste"

I want to throw this out there. I really don't know what to think on the subject and hoping someone might enlighten me.

In some places in scripture, repentance is required for salvation, yet others it seems like it isn't.

So the question is:

Does salvation require repentance or does repentance require salvation?

Repentance is returning to Him, returning to where we should have started. If one has confessed His name, which is required for salvation then we would start to walk in His ways, which is returning to Him. In the Hebraic thought repent is teshuvah, not making effort to turn from but to turn back to, turning our backs on our fleshly lives and thoughts and to allow the Spirit to return us to a place where we can hear His voice more clearly. Repentance is the condition of the heart, softening it so He can mold us into the person we are meant to be in Him. So if you have confessed His name, you are repenting, you are returning to Him. You cannot confess His name without confessing your sins, repenting them is part of it all.

shalom,

Mizz

That is beautiful!!

I want to throw this out there. I really don't know what to think on the subject and hoping someone might enlighten me.

In some places in scripture, repentance is required for salvation, yet others it seems like it isn't.

So the question is:

Does salvation require repentance or does repentance require salvation?

Hi everyone and great post btw.

First and foremost, the church as I understand it to be is not within walls, it is the body of Christ. A lot of people go to the house of God for various reasons, which is why a lot of the greater works that Jesus said that we would and should be doing( making disciples of all nations, etc) are not being done. Not everyone who goes to a place of worship in Christ's name is in fact a Christian.

Just like not evryone who doesn't go to "church" is not a Christian.

I also don't think that some beleivers know what there function is in the body of Christ because a lot of believers are ignorant of what the Bible teaches and instructs us to do. I hate to say it, but some Christians are lazy and stagnant in their growth in Christ.

Hosea 4:6 " my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" and thus a lot of believers are being destroyed in many areas of their lives.

Many Christians backslide because of poor teaching and/or leadership. Of course, we will be persecuted, but there is a fine line between being persecuted and destroyed. So I personally think that poor discipling begets poor discipling. IOW, if we as Christians aren't being taught the Word correctly, then it can make it very difficult to teach what we do not know to non-believers and help make them disciples of Christ.

I personally have a lost for words when it comes to witnessing to others and I think a lot of Christians feel this way. I would be very thankful if anyone has any suggestions on how and when to witness to non-beleivers.

I have the same problem. What I have found is waiting on God to give the opportunity to speak to that person. They may ask a question that opens the door for dialogue. Also pray for God to give you the words to speak. What I have found is that beating someone over the head with a bible rarely works.

You cannot lump all churches into the same boat.

If you chose not to attend a church, fine, but perhaps you have not yet found the right one for you?

As for spreading the word. Our church works from Mongolia, to Madagascar, to Zimbabwe and in Mozambique. And recently the Bahama's and New Zeland.

We go to church to learn, then we go.......

Where are you spreading the word?

Not sure who you are addressing this to. I'm going to go ahead and take it's me (or maybe both).

"You cannot lump all churches into the same boat"

No you can't, but I am talking about my personal experience and there are alot of people that feel the same way. If not just go to www.simplechurch.org or any organic/simple church sites. Check out George Barna's research on the subject. BTW Barna is one of the leading christian statisticians out there and his research is used by just about every major christian news group out there. (p.s. he also co-wrote Pagan Christianity)

"If you chose not to attend a church, fine, but perhaps you have not yet found the right one for you?"

As far as attending a church, I'll explain more about that later. But I don't think I said anywhere (nor did the OP) about not attending a local assembly. And since when should we choose a body of believers like we are in a cafeteria picking food?

"As for spreading the word. Our church works from Mongolia, to Madagascar, to Zimbabwe and in Mozambique. And recently the Bahama's and New Zeland."

That is awesome!! I think we all should do more in supporting foreign missions, but that doesn't take place in personally spreading the word, and I think that is what the OP was getting at. Too many times we think writing a check is evangelism, and it's not.

"We go to church to learn, then we go......."

Ok, I'm lumping this with the whole attending church comment. Where in scripture do we "go to church"? There is nowhere in scripture that describes a church as a place. It's a people. We are the church! We assemble together as commanded in scripture. We assemble to corporately pray and worship together, to edify one another, to attend to each others needs, and to share a meal together. Atleast that is what the first century church did.

"Where are you spreading the word?"

Work mostly since that takes up the majority of my time. And watching someone who a year ago didn't know Jesus from Moses to now talking non-stop about what he read in the Bible last night and going to different congregations sharing his testimony is awesome!! Watching God work in this young man's life and seeing how it's effecting his wife and children is just amazing. To God all the glory!!

I don't think neither the OP or I have suggested anyone leave their congregation. But local assemblies are losing people in droves now. More and more people are without a church home. There has to be a reason and I don't think its all about them "not finding the right church for them".

I do think your on to something DLANE.

A good book to pick up or atleast check out their websites is

Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola

Alot of things done in today's "churches" are not biblical in the least.

L.J.

The problem is not who to vote for, or if we don't have enough Christians voting. Our problem is we don't have enough CHRISTIANS!! I'm not talking pew warmers but true hard core followers of Christ. When that becomes a majority, then you will see this country change. Then again, it could be God's plan that this country falls. He does establish the rulers.

I voted no.

Like Cobalt, I was married to a Mormon for 8 years. They are not Christian.

I decided long ago that I was a Christian who happens to be an American. If there is not a believer on the ticket, I just don't vote. Is it un-American not to vote? I don't think so. It's a right, not a demand. Before anyone starts waving a flag and saying I'm unpatriotic, I proudly served 10 years in the armed forces. I paid for my right for free speech and the right not to vote. I answer to God for my decisions. Nobody else!

Don't mean to sound so harsh. Just tired of some people defining what is duty. Don't remember seeing these people when I was pulling broken bodies off the bus during Desert Storm.

That is so neat!!! Our cat jumps in the tub with you. So much for stereotypes about cats not liking water.

While I agree with what the young man is saying, MAN has made religion what it is today. The bible does not shoot down religion, it shoots down man made religion.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Jesus never criticized what the religious ppl did of that day, he criticized that they had an unclean heart.

1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

We must be careful not to be "religious" about religion. There are 2 types of religion, pure/undefiled and the un-pure/defiled.

I guess I'm kinda weird. I won't vote for an unbeliever at all. If there is no choice, I choose not to choose. I feel like I am accountable for my vote.

Everytime this comes up, this verse keeps coming to me "Render to Caesar what is Caesar's.

I would prefer to vote for a believer, but that's not always an option these days. God is sovereign and can use nonbelievers or believers to do what He wants done.

I'm afraid I have to point out that "choosing not to choose" is a choice in itself and a potentially hazardous one. Not voting in a election is actually voting for whoever wins, because they got the most votes. A few thousand people can change the outcome of a local election, and a few million a national one.

Choosing not to choose Christ for salvation is ultimately a choice for an eternity without Christ.

I used of the term "choosing not to choose" poorly. I would choose not to vote. Hows that. And as far as my not voting helps whoever wins? so be it. I have to stand in front of my God one day, not a politician.

Our focus on changing this country seems to be on our politicians. Our focus should be on the lost. We say this is a "Christian" country. Its not. The majority of this country is not followers of Christ. That is where our focus should be. Want to stop abortion? So called gay marriage? Start having prayer in school. Get the trash off our tv's and movie screens? Lets go after the voters to change their hearts and minds, not the politicians. America's problems are not the politicians that are in office, it's the people that put them there.

The Iowa caucus was decided by 8 votes. Eight.

I would rather see a person in office who conducts themselves properly (even if they are an unbeliever) than someone who is all 'RAH RAH Jesus" but compromises on the important issues at hand.

While I agree with you that many use the name of Jesus for personal gain, I can't think of any issue more important than being a true follower of Christ. A true follower will not compromise any issue.

Took time machine back. Happy New Year!!!!!!!!!

last.

I guess I'm kinda weird. I won't vote for an unbeliever at all. If there is no choice, I choose not to choose. I feel like I am accountable for my vote.

Everytime this comes up, this verse keeps coming to me "Render to Caesar what is Caesar's.

Can you break this down into bullets? I can see points, with sub-points in every sentence.

In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Strange as it may sound, this is how I study scripture when there is a lot of information packed into a chapter.

Love it. What a wonderful way of studying scripture.

I don't think Christianity is spiraling down. Maybe the unbelievers view of it will be. True followers of Christ knows the truth and can see through all this junk.

I'm with you about an unbeliever leading a bible study. It been better if she was just participating. Especially since she is Jewish, it been awesome to read all the Old Testament prophesies about Christ.

L.J.

Short answer, Yes.

To think God would want someone to stay in a marriage where the person is being physically abused just sounds out of character with the God in the Bible.

Atleast the One that I read about.

L.J.

This may seem like an odd question, however I have had doubts about my own salvation for years. When I do good, I feel like I am trying to earn salvation. When I do bad, I feel like I couldn't have done those things if I were saved. I have sincerely prayed for salvation literally hundreds of times, and still there is no change.

So my question is this

Is it possible to prove that you are saved, or is there something that a saved person does that a lost person woud never do? Please provide a scriptural answer.

Taylor,

It is a good question, one that I am sure we all have asked ourselves.

Don't confuse salvation with sanctification. I'm still learning the sanctification part. The difference is salvation means we are saved and sanctification means we are being set apart. The fact that you feel bad is the Holy Spirit working on you. Should you be worried about sins, YES. Does it mean your not saved? I can't answer that question, but if you repent (turn away) they are forgiven. Are you gonna stumble? Yes, we all do. Sanctification is a process. As far as it concerns me and my walk, a very gradual one. I'm trying to stay in the word and on my knees.

As far as you feeling your trying to earn your salvation, you won't. The fact that it's still hard to "do good" is your flesh. Just trying to "do good" on your own will never get easier.

Stay in the word, stay in prayer and stay in fellowship. Lately, I have even starting to cut away from those who are not believers, watching what kind of shows and what kind of music I listen to. It's not "to be saved" but its to not allow myself to be influenced by the world.

I know these days preachers seem to always preach on "how to be saved" and hardly anything on "what's next".

Just my 2 cents.

L.J.