Anne

Tommy who is michael

I see what you are saying OC, and I know that you were talking to dood, but if I could ask you what in your opinion is the following in relation to Romans 8 verses 20, 24 1. What is Vanity and why were we subjected to it (or why was it enforced upon us)? 2. What is Hope and why were we subjected to it (or why was it enforced upon us)? Just to clarify OC, I do not necessarily disagree with what you have said, i'm just curious as to the above two points.

Okay, I get you. Hope can also be described as a 'longing' for something. (e.g. 'I hope to go to heaven'). How many times have you heard the unsaved say - 'I hope I go to heaven'. They hope to go to heaven, because they don't have true salvation and are unsure of their outcome after they die. From the start, anyone who believes in God and knows about the eternity of heaven and hell will probably hope to go heaven. And it's that very hope that drives many of us to get saved and make sure of our outcome. So, This is why Paul says "For we are saved by hope". Mmmm... the answer to this question is Yes AND No. I believe Paul is saying in this passage that if we have true salvation - we do not need to hope for it. For if we have true salvation - we are garaunteed a place in heaven and therefore we have no need to hope for it because we will surely see the glory of God. This is why Paul says in Romans 8:4 - "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?" Which is basically saying - 'We've been saved because we longed for an assurance heaven - And if you have something - you no longer need to hope for it!' However, in the case of those who have not yet recieved true salvation - they still hope to see the glory of God. Does this answer your question? Or have I missed the point? I would agree that hope is a desire to have something not yet attained and that vanity at its core is indeed sin......well sort of.... , there is a little more to it than that, so I'll just list them briefly here, but yeah, desire (yearning) and sin are kinda what they are. The only thing I will point out is that the scripture reference given in post #121 as Romans 8 v 4 is incorrect, and I'm quite sure Tribulation meant to write Romans 8 v 24, just in case you all are looking at your Bibles wondering where we got the word hope in Romans 8 v 4. What is vanity? (Romans 8 v 20) The vanity which we were made subject to is inutility, a transientness or more clearly a depravity (a taking away of something) my concordance goes on to translate it as being empty, a profitlessness and interestingly it is also connected with the word idol, to be honest i'm not sure why though. The word vanity in the context of this verse is also connected with the idea of tentative manipulation, or an unsuccessful search in connection with punishment, a folly, or something which serves no purpose. There's more, but I think this will suffice, to be honest folks i'm not seeing the word "sin" mentioned, certainly not the specific act of "sin" itself, but a picture is forming in my mind that the vanity which we were subjected to is the result of the act of "sin" committed. So let me look at that verse again dood, and see if I can get any understanding from it in view of the above, "For the creature (that's us and may even pertain to the world and nature in general) was made subject to vanity, (we became inheritors, of the consequence of the act of sin, .......bare with me here......that is to say that as a result of sin, our lives became profitless, without purpose, and unsuccessful), not willingly.......(now this does not mean that we were forced into sin, this is not what I am getting from these words anyhow, but more we committed the original sin willingly and were thus bannished from the garden, unwillingly ie i'm quite sure that Adam and Eve did not want to leave the Garden of Eden, as a result of which their lives and later their descendants lives became a fruitless and profitless search for fulfillment. But Paul then goes on to say this), but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope. Now hold on a second......if we read the word vanity as sin, is Paul here then saying that , God subjected us to sin unwillingly and then turned round and threw in a bit of hope against our wills also, which doesn't really make much sense to me............as spock would say, "it is not logical". No I think it better to view vanity as the result of sin and not sin itself. Does that make sense? Stay with me here.........We commited sin and thus were subjected to vanity (profitlessness, emptyness, etc,) unwillingly, but the same God who subjected us to that vanity (punishment of sin) subjected us to hope, do you get it??? But what is this hope that we have been subjected to? (Romans 8 v 24) Hope, in relation to this verse means to anticipate with pleasure and with confidence, anticipate with knowledge............are you all hearing this.........gonna say it again, TO ANTICIPATE WITH KNOWLEDGE , that means we are not hoping in blind faith, we are not hoping for something which we know nothing of, but we know in our minds because of the Bible and the facts which are revealed to us that what we wait for is real and true, it is not blind faith, Selah!!!!!!!! Lets bring this all together and take a second Look at those two verses only, Romans 8 v 20 and 24 For the creature was made subject to vanity (remember I think vanity is the result of sin), not willing (ie the life which we now live became the result from the sin committed in the garden and as a result we were punished made subject to vanity, death, suffering, etc was against our desire or will, not the sin itself nor the hope which was later given), but by reason of him (the same God who punished us is the same God who......) who hath subjected the same in hope (given us knowledge by various means so that we can anticipate His return, which we have not yet seen.) verse 24 For we are saved by hope (we are saved by the knowledge of salvation and receiving of such) ; but hope that is seen is not hope (our anticipitation of what we know is coming, whether it be when we pass on or in this lifetime, will henceforth cease to be hope and become a living reality) : for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for it? (what reason would there be to hope for embracement within the arms of Jesus Christ, if we were already in His arms. What you have received you have no need to want for anymore. To put it more plainly, when you get to Heaven you'll have no need to hope to go to Heaven any longer). Did I answer your question dood got a bit carried away there I think, let me just check........................okay nearly finished, I promise You asked the following:- My question would be what is the actual nature of this hope, that god felt the need to enforce (subject to) on humanity along with vanity? God felt the need to enforce the hope which He has, so that we would live in aniticipation with knowledge of going to be with Him or His eventual return someday, so that we would not become downtrodden and in despair within this life, in short God did us a great mercy here dood, He could have just kicked us out and left us to fend for ourselves! It was because of sin we were made subject to vanity, and because of vanity we were made subject to hope. I wait in hope for your reply (the aniticipation of the knowledge that you will have something to say about that ) God Bless you Anne

Sorry folks, for taking so long to get back to this, but I have other studies which take up alot of my time, but I hadn't forgotten about this one. The next part that is pointed out is the Emotions of the Holy Spirit. EMOTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT Now lets look at the third fact, that the Spirit of God loves. We speak of love as being related to the heart. Both the Old and New Testaments have much to say about the "mother heart" of the Holy Spirit. In this connection James chapter 4 v 5 says: "Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? (Loveth us even to the point of jealousy)." A power cannot love us, nor can an influence be warm toward us. But a person can love us and a Divine Person can and will love us with an infinite love. We learn here that the Holy Spirit loves us to the point of jealously! He controls the master plan of God which embraces the globe. He accomplishes this work of reaching the world through His people; consequently, anything in our lives that goes contrary to that plan distresses Him greatly. It grieves Him according to what we read in Ephesians chapter 4 verse 30. Now, we cannot grieve a person unless that person loves us. We are admonished to "Grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." This brings home the truth to us that a Divine Person, the Holy Spirit, loves us as infinitely as the Father and just as personally as the Son. That love is a condescending love. It is matchless mercy. It is divine patience. At the moment of our conversion, the Holy Spirit came into our hearts bringing with Him the Lord Jesus Christ, and making our dead Spirits live. He witnessed to us, with conviction, in our hearts and in our minds that we are the children of God. Such a work as this is a gracious work; and He continues it day by day as He, through love, leads us into a warm, rich experience of Himself. An intellectual presentation only of truth can leave one's heart barren. Statements of truth may be wonderful, yet lack warmth or nourishment, having no inward moving of the Spirit on the deep vitals of the life. What is needed in much Christian work is that something called UNCTION- heaven's dew. Far better than beautiful auditoriums, well trained choirs, and intellectually challenging messages is to witness the workings of the Holy Spirit. Now don't get me wrong, these things are all good in themselves, but our greatest need is for a group of people with their mind (intellect) together with their heart (emotion) fixed on God, and on their knees before Him, and the Lord coming down upon them. When we be in the right position before Him, He can visit us in this way.

Aaah.........now I understand you better, well this doesn't change what I thought you meant by your original post too much, should have an answer back to you in the wee small hours.............( I think my head hurts )

Okay let's try and answer this by rewording the question, if that's okay dood: what does Paul mean when he speaks of the following? Romans chapter 8 verses 20 - 24 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pan togther until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? The underlined scripture is what dood is querying, but I thought it probably best to include the wholes scripture part, as I disliked splitting or dividing I want to turn this around a bit dood and ask you to explain to me what you think/believe the following are with regards to this scripture:- 1. What do you believe the creature to be? 2. What is the vanity spoken of in relation to the creature? I don't want to really press any further until I understand how you view the creature and what the vanity was, sorry, I do have a point.

I need some coffee before I answer this..........

I won't say a word

Please help I think i'm gonna pass out..................what do you mean you have no comment!!!!!!

Trib that's an execellent post, And is a better way of explaining the continuation of mine from earlier. What I did was pick some peoples minds for scriptures which reveal to them why they believed they were created, and heres the short list of those: Isaiah chapter 43 verse 7 For I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him. Ephesians chapter 2 verse 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordaned that we should walk in them. Colossians chapter 1 verse 16 - 17 For by him were all things created that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. and he is before all things and by him all things consist. Revelation chapter 4 verse 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive honour, and power: for thou has created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Jeremiah chapter 29 verse 11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Ezekiel chapter 33 verse 11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live................. Why did God create man? God created man because God is worthy to receive honour, power and glory and it is for His pleasure we are and were created. We were created by God for Him, to glorify Him, and in doing so we might live in peace and do good works and walk in them. But again that still doesn't answer your question, i know , but i've been thinking, (a dangerous pass time, i know but somebody's got to do it) If God had not created man, He would have committed a great wrong Himself, and we know there is no wrong in God or what He does. For even with that foreknowledge of what Adam and Eve would do and we, their descendants would do, He would have been denying the righteous amongs us the right to life and the choice to love Him. Which when you think of it would have been a selfish act in itself. If God had of not created us then He would have been dictating that the righteous amongst us would have never had the chance to live and love and in turn be loved by God Almighty who created all things. And had He not have done this, well, then.........what would that have said about God?? So as we know God made the decision to go ahead, he knew yes that we would sin, but it wasn't a trap dood, because He had already foreplanned a route of escape for those among us who would choose to live in Him. God Bless you dood, I think that trib has put it in a better way, but I can only say it as I understand it.

Billie you are absolutely correct, the question which I think dood is now getting at, with God foreknowing what would happen, why would He choose to go ahead with creation?

ummmmm Okay, to the topic in hand, i'm just gonning to recap from all the threads in brief bullet points so that anyone who joins in can understand exactly what it is we are discussing:- 1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2. On the earth God made a land called Eden. 3. In Eden God placed a particularily beautiful garden. 4. In that garden God placed two trees. 5. The Tree of Life. 6. The Tree of Knowledge of good and evil. 7. In that garden God placed Adam and the first woman (Eve). 8. Whilst in that garden God commanded Adam and Eve not to touch the tree of Knowledge. 9. Whilst in that garden Eve ate from the tree and so did Adam 10. Resulting in their banishment from said garden. Now these points are generally not in dispute, apart from a small query within point 8. Which i'm going to get to shortly. The stage which we are at now is, given all the things we have discussed, and God knowing from before point 1 what would happen if He placed that tree in the garden, together with Adam and Eve, He knew that they would sin, so why do it? God knew that the serpent would tempt Eve and He knew that Eve would eat of the fruit and give to her husband Adam, so why, knowing all the pain that we would cause, why is now the question? We generally already know the who, the what, the when and the how. I'm going to leave answering the why until the last dood, as I have still got a few thoughts jiggling around in my head. I want to address that slight query you have with point 8. Get ready for a scripture throwing festival!! Let's look at that verse Genesis Chapter 2 v 16 -17 (KJV) And the Lord God commanded the man saying, "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:" .....(you would have probably thought yummy at this point, a feast right at your fingertips, no need for KFC or the macDonalds crew in those days, everything was additive free, there was no delivery fees, no restrictions, ...or was there?)........."but".........(aha you mean there's a catch, so you need to listen up cause this bit is very important)............."of the TREE of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil"...........(you mean that tree there, that lovely tree with that gorgeous fruit, that's the tree you're talking about?)................"thou shalt not eat".............(you mean we're not allowed even a nibble, well that's like leaving a kid alone in a sweetie shop! But you said i'm not allowed to eat it so I won't)..........FOR IN THE DAY THAT THOU EATEST THEREOF........(you mean there's gonna come a day when I will???? Not me, i'd never disobey you)................"thou shalt surely die!" (well that settles it think Adam, noway, nohow, am I touching that tree, and off he goes). Remember when you were a kid and your mom would say, "Don't eat all that chocolate at once, you'll be sick." But it tastes so good, doesn't seem like it could do any harm, but half an hour later, you're wrapped in a blanket on sofa, groaning and moaning. And your mom's saying "I told ya so, but ya wouldn't listen, now let that be a lesson to you.!" Okay, the bits in the brackets folks are my addition, it's not a new type of Bible, it's just a possible scenario! The words outside the brackets are the KJV words, just incase there's any confusion. 1. God commanded (charged to them that they were free to eat of every tree) however, 2. God forbade, "thou shalt not", (the eating from the tree of knowledge), 3. God Knew, that they would (and we know that they did). Are the above three points agreed between us dood? It is the absolute forbidding to eat from the tree of knowledge, and yes I agree that God knew that they would, but I don't want to go too much deeper into this at this stage because I want now to clarify some points you made to me. Now let me get this right dood, in your last post to me, you queried a possibility, or a thought of the following, i'm quoting from memory here:- 1. Adam and Eve encountered evil by default, ie they were not told or forewarned by God that the serpent had a screw loose (they had not be told he was evil). 2. Adam and Eve encountered evil by default, by the tree being put there in the first place. 3. God knew that Adam and Eve were going to eat of the tree, so why put it there in the first place, God knew that the serpent was evil, so why allowed the serpent in the garden in the second instance. So you thought all things now being considered was this a trap on God's behalf? dood I thought you said you weren't into conspiracy theories My gut instinct tells me no, but that same gut instinct is telling me you want scriptural knowledge and confirmation of this, an explanation as to why God continued with creation. So off I go on a scripture hunt, i'm quite sure i'll be sitting here till the wee small hours of the morning, you're not the easiest person to convince you know...............

It's okay dood, just read your last post I understand what you're asking now. You know no one has ever put that to me before, i'll get right on to it and back asap.

Agreed trib, I was just concerned that the person who posed the question had focused in on those few short words and felt the situation was hopless, thanks for all your replies guys.

Good news guys.

Bumping for Dave.

Why ya at me that makes me want to at you No offence taken regarding the Tree of Knowledge point, I'll scoot back over it and then see what was missed..........or you could make life easier and tell me what I missed Ah go on, you know you want to.

I have the impression you want me to answer #1 and #3? Feel free to ask anything. 1. So, you believe in God AND a 'higher power'? Short answer yes. Longer answer. Let me use a physical metaphor that somewhat lines up with the general understanding of scripture. You and your spouse care about each other. But you have a debate and got on each other nerves a little. You live in the same house but don't feel like talking to each other for a bit. The union is still there, but there are problems that need to be worked out. Once it is aventually worked out. Everything will be great again. I see the same thing with God and people. We all just turned our backs on each other I think. But you can only hold the cold shoulder for so long. I know of no one capable of a pernament grudge. Or sticking to a sin for eternity. 3. Are you here to further your understanding of God? No not really. I can see that as a secondairy thing as I do take interest in it. I think the primary reason I'm here is because I had some things I wish to understand better in regards to the bible. For arguements sake lets say all the different bibles are 98% the same it's the same teachings, same moses, same jesus, same apostilies the other differences are small. Now you take 10 people and ask them there beliefs which is suppose to be on a bible that is 98% the same. #1 says Once Saved always saved, #2 says you don't have to confess but live a good life through good works. #3 says hell is temporary. #4 says hell is forever. #5 blames satan for everything #6 blames people in general #7 believes demons are running around tempting people. #8 believes it is the human imagination that are the demons. #9 believes you can pray away serious medical illness's. #10 says there will be a rapture These are all major disagrements that for the most part should be answerable from the bible. I saw this and I also saw the source for this information hasn't changed. If the source hasn't changed, then who changed the end result and why? The people must of I figured. Meanwhile all the believers with these different views still maintain they are correct, because they believe in god and his guidance. I for the most part agree, but not completely. The source is solid and unchanged. You would think the views would be solid and simular. The views have a general likeness that comes through everyone's faith in god I think, but the end results in the views on many major/critical subjects jump to the extremes end of the spectrum from one and another. So I ask myself. How can this possibly be. I want to know. In doing so or finding out It seems like it would make my personal understanding of both human nature and god one step stronger. Sorry again dood, I just read back on some of the things you've been discussing with "Trib", and you have said something which is very striking and true that I just had to say amen! You said, "The source is solid and unchanged. You would think the views would be solid and similar. The views have a general likness............................." Earlier you said " If the source hasn't changed, then who changed the end result and why?" A very interesting thought to contemplate I think.

Sorry for taking so long dood. Okay the first thing you question was: Can everyone agree that killing is bad and wrong, no good can come from killing? I bet some were comping at the bit to reply to that, you see not everyone would agree that killing persay is wrong. Let me try to explain what I mean, in defending your ones country or even your family or self against whatever type of attack or violence encountered it is unfortunate that people do get killed, but is killing in self defence wrong, no I don't think it is. I draw a distinct line between that which is killing and that which is murder, in my mind there is a difference! To deliberately and cruelly with no reason other than hatred or selfish reason to set out to cause someone harm and as such results in their untimely death, that to me is murder and is forbidden in the Bible, there are quite possibly others here who could explain the Biblical difference between killing and murder much better than I. I understand, quite possibly you will disagree, but that is my honest thought on the matter. Again dood, it is unfortunate that there are so many wars which result in so many deaths, believe me when I say, that this makes me very sad in my heart. But how can I turn towards God and say "God you know, all this,...........all this is your fault! See all this bloodshed, see all this pain, all these tears, this is your fault!" Because dood it's not God's fault, it is our very own faults, in each country, without exception you have people who are driven by the thirst for power and many will choose to achieve that by whatever means necessary including the mass slaughter of their own people, religion controls the people and false religion were made by man in order for that goal to be achieved. Corrupt leaders say, "Okay you don't agree with me! I guess you'll have to die!" and so ensues mass murder, all done in the name of religion. But these are deceptive men/women in high places in positions of power and they do not speak for God the Creator! And don't think for one second that they do! They use religion to control the people of any given country, because a huge majority of people want so much to believe in a higher power a god who cares, unfortunately they look in all the wrong places, in an effort to reach a self fulfilling religion. On the other side of the coin, you have countries which are under constant attack from terrorists who fight in the name of their god, and yeah I guess those terrorists believe that they are fighting for the real god, but remember the distinction I made between killing and murder? The countries which defend themselves, this may require going into the lions den to fight, so to speak, are killing in self defence dood and this is not murder. Now what an individual does or how an individual soldier behaves whilst in that war towards the innocent caught up in the situation, sometimes reflects badly on the country who set out to defend itself. But should the defence of a country be called into question and halted because of the blackness of one heart among the many. I think not! But I do agree with the main tenor of the whole point you made, we tack Gods' name to wars and killings and each country believes that it fights on a true gods side. I think that God must have shed so many tears over some of the things humanity has done in His name, but unless we learn to turn towards God who created all things and seek to find out what it is He needs from us, then it is a sad but necessary fact that this bloodshed will continue until God Himself steps in and says "ENOUGH, NO MORE!" You see again this is man looking for his own way and refusing to seek God's way and will, and unless we do this then we are in for a very sharp and sudden lesson. One of my greatest hearts' desires is for people to stop looking at the world and humanity and thinking this is all God's doing, my second is that Christians would humble themselves before God and ask for forgiveness for the ill imagine we present of Him. You want to know how to recognise a true Christian dood, a true follower of God the Creator, well in their hearts they only seek to further Gods will and not their own, and you will see it in their eyes and hear it in their words, sometimes their actions may not demonstrate so but they will always be quick to see their fault and make ammends. A true Christian has the love of God in their heart and when they look out to the world, they remember what God Created and see what it has become, and their heart breaks for God. A true Christian will look into the heart of a man and say "Won't you come home now?" Ya see , you have the knack of getting me to ramble on an on I'll leave you with that now, God Bless you dood, hope you find your way safely home.

Continuation of a message given by Mr Neville Horn in 1961 concerning the workings of the Holy Spirit THE WILL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT We have seen a small portion of what the Scripture says concerning the mind of the Holy Spirit. Now let's see what the Bible has to say about the will of the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12 is where we learn that the Spirit of God gives gifts to every Christian. Some may receive one gift and others more; but all such gifts are to be exercised under the direction of the Holy Spirit of God who is Sovereign in the masterplan of God for reaching a lost world. Of this we read in verse 11:- "But all these (gifts) worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will." For the Church, that masterplan that girdles the globe began at Pentecost and shall be completed at the coming of our Lord Jesus. The Holy Spirit knows what point He has reached in carrying out that program. He, of course, is at the very heart of the will of God, the Father, and will draw us up to that plane as we yield to Him. He knows where to fit us into that masterplan so that He may do a maximum work through us. Our responsibility is to be sensitive to His leading and control.

Thanks tah, so I guess it's the repentance that the sinner has in their heart, the true desire to be right with God. *psst tah," Easy on the Old Testament buff label, i've spent two years here trying to appear studpid, and it's working, you go saying words like "buff" they'll think i'm smart or summit I think in a nutshell this is the best and simplelist way to view it, thanks Lady G. Hope you're reading Dave and that we've helped. God Bless

I am a macstoogie Rhonda, but *looks around for mods* we have to be careful cause we shouldn't fool around in the main forum, if we do the moderators give us a slap on the hand!! Anyways, join us in the fellowship forum, that's towards the bottom on the main forum, and you'll be sure of a giggle or two, we'd love to see you there! Keep you're eyes on Jesus Sis, He'll carry you through.

Still thinking how best to reply here dood.

So does God hear/answer the prayers of sinners? That was the question that was put to me in the chatroom. I apologise to that person for taking this length of time to post the thread as requested. I thought about it, and my natural instinct was to say yes, of course He must do, because it is as a sinner that we come to Him to seek forgiveness in Jesus name. So based on that thinking alone, I said yes. Then the following verse was pointed out to me: "Now we know that God heareth not sinners." The full verse reads: "Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth His will, him He heareth." The first thing i'd like to point out Dave, is that to get a better understanding of what any particular scripture passage is meaning it is advantageous to read it in its entirety, possibly the entire chapter, or said Book. It can be a misleading thing to focus in on a few short words, thus it may lead to misinterpretation. Now I'm an Old Testament student, so when it comes to the new testament I generally have to advance my brain about 4,000 years, to catch up with everyone else!. So what I did Dave, was get out a book entitled "Exposition of the Gospel of John" by Arthur W Pink, and heres what he had to say about that verse. "This verse like many another, MUST NOT be divorced from its setting. Taken absolutely, the words "God heareth not sinners," are not true. God "heard" the cry of Ishmael (Genesis 21 v 17); He "heard" the groanings of the children of Israel in Egypt, long before He redeemed them (Exodus 2 v 24); He "heard" and answered the prayer of the wicked Manasseh (II Chron 33 v 10-13). But reading this verse in the light of its context its meaning is quite apparent. The Pharisees had said of Christ, "We know that this man is a sinner" (v24). Now says the beggar, "We know that God heareth not sinners," which was one of their pet doctrines. Thus, once more, did the one on trial turn the word of his judges against themselves. If Christ were an impostor as the avowed, then how came it that God has assisted Him to work this miracle? In short Dave, it is not God who said He did not hear the prayer of sinners, this was man twisting God's Word, in an apparent attempt to make it seem to mean something else. We can see by God's example throughout the Bible that He does hear the prayers of sinners. For if God does not hear the prayers of a sinner, then He wouldn't hear anyone! Do you get what I mean? Help me out here folks, I've got three different studies running round in this wee head of mine, and it's starting to turn to mush