Michae

Explain please. Apoligize for the last quibe answer. Seems most belivers today can not divide soul and spirit so when making statements about our completion in spirit or being completed is soul much confusion comes out of it. Its a real concern among bible teachers today. A bible student really needs to give some time to study and get the understanding of properly dividing soul and spirit. Quick case in point there is a thread we gave both been in here called osas, that thread would not exsist if the scriptures were divided into soul and spirit. Let me explain, dividing soul and spirit is not real big in religion if anything they would rather you not learn to handle the word like that, Hebrew 4:12. Ok lets look quickly at this, it does take some time and Spirit teaching to be able to divide. We are completed in spirit by Christ in us, "he thst is joined unto the Lord is one spirit". That is our completion and salvation in spirit, it is finished, done nothing more needs to be completed in spirit. Now when looking at expressing our new life in Christ that is soulish, the only way for a believer to live a christian life is through their soul-expresser or another wsy to say it is our creation, the way we are all unique in creation or expression. Paul is very clear in delivering the message that Christ is the only life a believer has, yet that life is the only life we have. Its not my life its the Christ-life that was birthed in me, the life of Christ, the seed of God which is Christ was placed in me as my only life the moment I believed. Ok soulishly and spontaneously it is lived out of me, its no longer my love but His, its no longer my faith but His and so on and so on. That simple undetstanding had divided all of christianity and we will not budge on out thinking, we had rather fight than get revelation on what a christian is. Not easy to understand because the natural man Paul said can not get the things of God they have to be revealed, that is soulish or mind renewal to the deep things of God which is Christ in you the hopw of glory.

Your confusion comes from not seperating soul and spirit, thanks.

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and be ready always to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear" (I Pet. 3:15, KJV and NKJ combined). As Christians we need to passionately love God and let His life in us flow out of us with His agape love toward others (I Pet. 3:8). We abide in Him and His agape love, for that is the mind of unity in the fellowship in the Spirit (I John 4:16; Phil. 2:1-2). The Christ-life is a love-life. Not only does living the Christ-life change you, it also helps change all those round about you in your sphere of influence. There are some, that may only see Jesus in and through you to them. You may be the only Jesus person that they truly know. This is why letting the Holy Spirit transform and renew the mind to the mind of Christ is so important for you and others (I Cor. 2:10-13,16). The mind of Christ in us is used to spiritually discern and spiritually judge all things in the Spirit (I Cor. 2:14-16). We are an expression of Christ, who operates in us with this transformed mind of Christ. The more the mind is transformed by the Holy Spirit, when and if we make the right choices, the more Christ can flow in and through us for others. The more the mind is transformed the more Christ will be able flow spontaneously in and through us, as we yield to Him and make the right choices. Spontaneous Christ-life living and expression through us is the pressing toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus (Phil. 3:14). Paul counted all things loss, for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord (Phil. 3:7). Spontaneous Christ-life living and expression through us is true evidence of His Lordship. Paul clearly affirmed that this is mature or clear mind thinking, and if we should think anything otherwise, God will eventually reveal it to us if we are open to truth (Phil. 3:15). Sooner, if not later, those in our sphere of influence that are observing the Christ-life in us will ask us certain questions about Christ and Christianity. The same mind of Christ that we spontaneously lived the Christ-life with, will also be used to spiritually discern and spiritually judge all things in the Spirit to answer these questions. As Paul told Timothy, "Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching" (II Tim. 4:2). As Peter states it, "be ready always to give an answer to everyone who asks" (I Pet. 3:15). That's not being ready some of the time, but always being ready. Notice, that Jesus did not have to stop and pray to get an answer. Jesus always was ready with the right answer, and Jesus chose to do everything as a man, even though He was all God. That means that if we are regularly in tune with the Father, and with the mind of Christ. Spontaneously living the Christ-life, we will be ready always to give an answer – His answer of truth to those that ask! V

"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me" (Gal. 2:20). Have you ever seen yourself crucified on the cross in Christ when he was crucified? Perhaps, you never thought of it quite that way before. However, Paul declares that we were crucified with Christ. That means at the very same time. When Christ died -- we died. The most significant things in our Spiritual walk will be with our identification to and with Christ. Adam's old sin nature that he received from Satan was being put to death on that cross. Adam's original sin penalty being passed on to us was also being put to death on that cross. Everything that would ever cause a separation between me and my Heavenly Father was being put to death on that cross. Some Christians are still attempting to put to death things today. The real root of these things involve religious activity doing things today, that already were completed and done by Christ on the cross. We need a full Holy Spirit revelation renewing our mind, with our identification to the Christ that we were co-crucified with on the cross. Not only were we with Him in His crucifixion and death on the cross, but since our Spirit rebirthing, we are now alive together with Him in His resurrection life. We are now living a Spirit-shared life with Christ. For "he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (I Cor. 6:17). That is why Paul says, that you me actually being seeing me here in the flesh living. Paul clearly stated the truth, "it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me" (Gal. 2:20a). This is a difficult statement for the natural mind to accept. We will surely need the help of the Holy Spirit our teacher and helper. The natural man cannot see or hear this truth. The Spirit speaks, shows, and reveals this to those who truly love God (I Cor. 2:9,10). If you don't want to see this reality and truth of Christ, you will never see it or hear it. If you really love God and are seeking Him and not just things, you are available for the Holy Spirit's revelation of this eternal liberating secret. Paul goes even further and tells us that he lives no longer by his faith, but the faith of the Son of God. Paul lives by the faith or faithfulness of Christ in him as his life. The Holy Spirit is going to reveal Christ so that we can move from our faith to His faith (Rom. 1:17). Paul tells us that Christ gave Himself up for me. In the Greek text this clearly declares that this part is not past but ever present. Our blessed Lord Jesus Christ is now living in every member of the many-membered Body of Christ, and Christ is at intervals giving Himself up today to live and be expressed through you as you. What marvelous love! What marvelous grace, that Christ lives in me! V

"But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him" (I John 2:27). We have the Holy Spirit in us, sent by the Father to be our primary teacher. Jesus told His disciples, that it was necessary that He go away, so that the Helper or the Holy Spirit would come to teach us (John 16:7). Jesus stated that, "the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance that I said to you" (John 14:26). Jesus also said, "But when the Helper comes whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth whom proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me" (John 15:26). Again Jesus declares, "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine, Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you" (John 16:13-15). Jesus taught that the Holy Spirit was selfless. The Holy Spirit does not come to focus on Himself. The Holy Spirit does not come to teach of Himself. The Holy Spirit does not want any attention to be drawn to Himself. The Holy Spirit presents the things of Jesus and testifies of Jesus. The Holy Spirit transforms and renews the mind to the things of Christ in us. So who or what is the anointing in I John 2:27? The best interpretation is best seen when we stay in context with the chapter and often the whole Book. The theme of this Book is having a relationship and fellowship with the Father and the Son (I John 1:3), and fellowship is emphasized throughout the remainder of chapter 1. Then we move into abiding in Christ, abiding in love, and loving our brothers for chapters 2, and 4. Chapter 5 comes full circle and talks about our Spirit rebirthing relationship in the Lord Jesus Christ. John tells us that we "have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things" (I John 2:20). Peter in his second sermon discusses the crucifixion of the Holy One, and is surely referring to our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 3:14). We are told to abide in the Son and in the Father (I John 2:24). Jesus told his disciples to abide in Him (John 15:7). All of these focus us to the truth that we are abiding in Christ and the doctrine of Christ in us (II John 9). After Christ in us as taught by the Holy Spirit, and we abide in Christ, the Son will begin a higher teaching and revelation of the Father to us (Matt. 11:27). This anointing is from Christ's nature, character, and expression in us. The Holy Spirit reveals the truth to us from the Word of God. Then, true teaching of the Father and all things comes through the anointing from Christ that abides in you! V

"For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men – as free, yet not using your liberty as a cloak for vice, but as servants of God. Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king" (I Pet. 2:15-17). Through the Spirit rebirthing, our Heavenly Father has basically prepared us for everything we will need in our walk in this temporal life. The most significant thing that our Father has done for us, besides His marvelous grace and redemption through Christ on the cross, was to place His only begotten Son in us at the Spirit rebirthing. His Son in us is to be our everything for this earthly walk. Christ is to be our wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption (I Cor. 1:30). Christ is to be our life and expression (I John 5:11-12; Gal. 2:20). This is why we are called the Body of Christ (I Cor. 12:27). We don't lack for grace and truth, for we have the Person of grace and truth – the Lord Jesus Christ, since the Spirit rebirthing living in us as us with His eternal life (John 1:17; Rom. 6:23). There should be no doubt that we are fully complete in the Spirit realm in Christ, who is the head of all principality and power (Col. 2:10). Anything that seems to lack in you comes from our mind not yet fully transformed to these truths by the Holy Spirit, or our lack of obedience in our walk to those revealed truths to us (Rom. 12:2; Gal. 3:1). Our Heavenly Father put Christ in us – the center and mystery of His will, for us to live a shared-life in Him – the Christ-life. The Christ-life message is the heart and soul of the apostle Paul. Christ specifically called Paul, revealed Christ in Him, and sent him to declare this to the church, as the Father's divine plan and correction needed to and for the church (Gal. 1:11-16; I Cor. 2:1-10). Most of the problems that the church faces today, is rooted to a lack of the teaching this liberating secret of the Christ-life. Religion does not teach it, for they must control the people through mixtures of law and grace. This message of 100% grace does not fit. Others do not teach it, because it has not been yet fully revealed to them, or they view it as only a peripheral message and not the Father's central focus message of truth. The church surely needs revival – that we will truly come back to the in Christ message of the apostle Paul of Christ living in you as you – hence, the Christ-life. Spontaneously and continuously living the Christ-life will genuinely produce His good and put to silence the ignorance of foolish men (I Pet. 2:15). Spontaneously living the Christ-life is our Father's freedom to us and liberty for us (Gal. 5:1). Our Father's divine purpose is to gather in one all things in Christ (Eph. 1:10). We are clay pots or vessels, to carry the treasure of Christ in us (II Cor. 4:7). Paul declares that the Christ-life should always be manifested in us and expressed through us (II Cor. 4:10). Christ is in us, and we are still in this earthly walk, in order that the Christ-life will be expressed through us with His Spirit of agape love-for-others (I John 4:16-17). As we spontaneously live the Christ-life, we will walk in the will of God to serve God and others in honor, agape love, in the fear of the Lord! V

"But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you" (I Pet. 5:10). Our Heavenly Father is a father of all grace. Our Father is the one who spoke in existence the eternal plan for us to be in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4). Our Father wanted to have sons, with which to have a genuine love relationship and fellowship. His created angels could never fully have a Father/child relationship with him. They do what they do out of a Master/servant relationship. Two-thirds of the angelic host have remained faithful. One-third of the angelic host led by Lucifer, the Archangel covering the Lord Jesus rebelled and were cast out of heaven (Rev. 12:7-9). Our Father foreknew this would happen before He chose us to be in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4-5; Rom. 8:29-30). Our Father chose us to be in Christ and Christ to be in us as the current Body of Christ, so that He would never have to cast us out of heaven by any disobedience that we might do. The Father "qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light" (Col. 1:12). Through the Spirit rebirthing when we simply believed in Him and His Word, our Father "delivered us from the kingdom of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love" (Col. 1:13). Our Father of all grace has secured an eternal Father/child relationship with us, and called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus (Eph. 1:12-14; I Pet. 5:10). To fully learn the family Spirit in this temporal walk, we will go through some pain and suffering. Paul said, "For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us" (Rom. 8:18). The arena of suffering often can be the open door the Holy Spirit's greatest revelation in us. Why cannot the natural eye see, nor the natural eye hear, nor enter into the heart of man the things of God. Naturally, man looks at the good, the rich, the powerful and the mighty things for being God. However, God works His eternal plan differently. He uses opposites. Our Father brings His life out of our death, His joy out of our suffering, His peace out of our unrest, His strength out of our weakness. Paul said, "God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence" (I Cor. 1:27-29). Through humility we can be brought to Christ and see that Christ is our everything – wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption (I Cor. 1:30). Through suffering we learn the family Spirit. Through suffering we learn obedience to God and the things of God just as Jesus did (Hebr. 5:8). We can ask the question, "Father what do you want me to really know in the midst of this trial and suffering?" Paul knew there was an important fellowship with the Father and Christ in the midst of His sufferings in us (Phil. 3:10). Through sufferings a little while, our Heavenly Father will work it all together for good to those that love Him (Rom. 8:28). Through these all these things the Father will have the Holy Spirit transform the mind so that we will matured, established, strenghened, and settled, by His revelation of Christ in us as us! V

"If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever, Amen" (I Pet. 4:11). Our Heavenly Father chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4). The Father sent the Holy Spirit to reveal His Son to us, and then draw us to Christ for salvation (John 6:44). The Spirit birthing is an essential and important transaction. Without the Spirit birthing, we cannot be placed into the Body of Christ, and Christ cannot come into us to live His eternal life in us. Paul indeed proclaims that we are not saved by Jesus' death on the cross, for that is what reconciled us to the Father to make a relationship with Him possible (Rom. 5:10). We are actually saved by the eternal life of the resurrected Lord of life actually coming to live in us at the Spirit birthing (Rom. 5:10). When we were born again by the incorruptible Seed, through the Word of God, we received all of Christ and were completed in the Spirit (I Pet. 1:23; Col. 2:10). We received the omnipresent Person of Christ, that is why Paul says, "it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me" (Gal. 2:20). Paul isn't talking about the Holy Spirit here, or even the Spirit of Christ, but the omnipresent resurrected Lord of glory coming to live in me with a shared-life or the Christ-life. At the Spirit birthing, we also received the Spirit of Christ to be the essence of the expression of Christ in me and through me (Rom. 8:9). The Spirit of Christ is distinct, but in union with the Holy Spirit. When I received Christ at the Spirit birthing, I actually received the Holy Spirit and all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Col. 2:9). The Holy Spirit's primary function in me is to fill and renew the mind to the eternal truth of Christ and Him crucified. The Son's primary function in me is to be my eternal life and expression in this temporal walk (I John 5:11-12; Gal. 2:20). Religious teaching has commingled and confused the functions of the trinity, contrary to the distinct teaching of the Word of God. When God operates in flesh it is has been through His Son, the Word. His Son became flesh and was expressed as Jesus of Nazareth (John 1:14). His Son now functions and is expressed through every member of the many-membered Body of Christ (I Cor. 12:27). Christ now lives in us with the fullness of His Person, Spirit, life and nature. As the Holy Spirit renews and fills the mind with the truth of Jesus Christ and Him crucified, we will really know the true Christ who now lives the Christ-life in us. Just as the Father spoke and did His works in and through Jesus of Nazareth, so will Christ speak and minister in and through our flesh with all of His ability within us. The more we know and yield to Christ in us, the more Christ will minister through us with all His ability, and Christ in us will speak as the oracles of God through us! V

Ok fair enough, back to OP we are not going to get any where.

It appears when you have no rebuttal you imply things with an out burst that were not said, is that a defence for not knowing or just imaturity. I never said the covenants were over, where did u read that i did could u quote that and back up your slander.

The covenants are on hold until the millenium, Acts 28:28.

That is not entirely accurate. Jesus came as the Savior of Israel as well. In fact, Jesus did not come the first time to fulfill the office of Messiah. When He returns, He will fulfill that office. While I agree that Israel and the Church are two different entities, I am not sure it's for the same reasons. I draw a distinction between the insitutional church and the community of authentic NT believers. Jewish people can be saved just like a gentile can be saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. I was referring to Israel as a nation but as an individual a Jew can and are saved by the cross as we are

For every hungry believer there comes a time when they will need more than just fellowship with other believers. They will wait before the Lord for that longing in their heart to know Him and to be satisfied. The Holy Spirit gives the hunger to know our Father and only our Father Himself can fill it. No amount of service, study, church attendance or even obedience can fill the void of wanting to know your Father. Contrary to what others may say you need to do to fill your soul only your love for the Father and the indwelling Christ will ever complete a believer. You have said right, the church is a body of believers made up of bonified offspring of God which have been birthed by the Father, the birthing takes place the moment you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior, no other way to salvation. That simple act on the Part of the Father is what we will spend the rest of our lives trying to figure out. The church building is the place most are born again, they attend usally by an invitation from a friend or family member and they answer the call. The gathering together in a building has become the church to many, we referr to it as church and even feel guilty if we dont attend or miss a service but the church is really just another way the Father use's all things for His glory, its a womb for birthing His own children. Modern church building can not take a believer into the deep things of God, they have wonderful men and women who run them and love God but they can never take the place of your Father and they will in time have to give up their grip on you so you can move on in the Lord. Its a shame that most that follow on to know the Lord will do this on their own, they will though in time meet other like minded believers that our Father cross's our path with. Those that trust the Father in solitude in time can be trusted with a deeper understanding of the things of God. Gal 4:1-2, your Father is not going to open up your mind until you are ready and the governors and tudors (circumstances and situations) have done there work in your life.

What do you believe about our Father, does he trust us or Christ in us for our salvation, Gal 2:20.

So true Shiloh, I just wanted to add one other thing about seperating the scripture's, that is the understanding of the division between Israel and the church. Israel are an earthly people and the church is a heavenly people. Israel is chosen people and we are a birthed people. The two in terms of salvation have nothing to do with each other. We go to the Fathers house and Israel will inherit the earth. Jesus came as their earthly king over a kingdom, and Jesus is our savior. Lot of confusion for believers today comes from not being able to divide what is writen to and about Israel and what is writen directly to a birthed child of God.

Off topic for just a bit, as I roll around some thoughts on forum chat in general my mind keep coming to the same place. I believe there was a time when church and sunday school was enough for a believer to grow up into Christ and maturity. I dont believe that anymore, teachers used to teach how to study Gods word as well as their understanding of it. Today it seems like all we get from teachers is their understanding which is good if they know how to study. It does seem apparent the teachers of today in general have failed, granted the internet is a diff animal and doesnt always bring out the best in people but you still get to look into the hearts of those that have been taught. I get the thing where we have diff understandings but where I really see the difference is in the knowledge of study habits or knowing how to read and dig in with understanding, i.e; dividing the scriptures as well as dividing soul and spirit, that was taught as 101, not so much anymore it seems. What teachers used to do was teach you how to study and trust the Holy Spirit to lead you, God forbid that happen today, most teachers and even leaders will tell you if you dont adhear to our voice you will fall prey to the enemy or some cult, everything that doesnt line up with what we believe is labeled cult, that is heritical and contradicts the word of God that says "you have no need of any man to teach you", 1st John 2:27, can any give some understanding on that verse, pray the Lord opens our minds to the deep things of God only revealed by the Holy Spirit.

I was trying to quote Shiloh but my quoter button not working. You really have some good thoughts on Heb 6, it like others places in Pauls epistles deals with a falling away. Gal, Paul deals with falling out of grace by going back into law. That was a real problem of the day because the law was so intrenched in their minds. On another note i dont believe Paul wrote Hebrews, most suppose he did but Hebrews is full of law as wrll as it doesnt start out like Pauls other epistles. If you follow Paul long enough you will see how he has a fear if ever mixing law and grace together. You will never find any law in the Pauline epistles. Even in Acts he is the first to say "believe" unto salvation, when others were saying repent and be baptised. Another point is for the posters in this thread is you have to divide soul and spirit when quoting the scriptures, there is numerous contradictions because a lack of dividing the scriptures.

If what he said is full of pride, I would argue that those who believe in OSAS are full of pride, because those who hold to that belief think you have a part in your salvation, in that you must accept Jesus as your Lord and savior, (a work), to be saved. That involves something you do. The only people who believe God is fully in control are those who believe in predestination and election. People in his camp just have a problem with all the people claiming to be saved that live worse than the heathen. By the way, no man can pluck you out of God's hand, but it doesn't say you can't choose to walk away willingly. I expected that! Which part of "no man" don't you understand. There is a big difference in someone plucking you out against your will, and walking away on your own. I can't pluck myself out of anything, but I can walk away. I have never understood how anyone can believe this scripture proves OSAS? All it proves is nobody can take my salvation from me against my will. A lot of words have been spoken and 15 pages have elapsed so let us see what our Saviour Christ JESUS has to say on the matter: "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent " (Rev2:5) If your first love was "being saved once for all" how can that be if our LORD said HE will remove thy candlestick out of his place ?. By the way, i am not getting into any major discussion, just a simple answer will suffice...... Simple answer is you have quoted scripture that is not writen to the born again. We are the church of the living God with the Son as its head. The seven churchs has long since come to pass, I have heard many preach on which church we are out of the seven and none have ever agreed, mainly because they mistake one of the seven churchs as the church which is not true. So the confusion continues as to what belongs to us in grace and what belongs to Israel under law. Look at Ananias and Sapphira in the 5th chapter of Acts, New Testiment but do you really think God was dealing with Israel under grace yet or the church. Just about every place Paul mentions falling away it has to do with falling away from grace back into law keeping, not back slidden or walking away from God, that is modern theology that teachs a form of loosing their salvation, I believe out of ignorance but none the less very clever way of keeping the gears of religion greased and in operation. Look at the debate in here, many are afraid if they dont make sunday service or pay their tithes or read their bibles they will some how fall out with God. Paul would say "you are being tossed to and fro" by the cleverness of men and their ideas of what they think God demands from a believer. Such philosophy and deceit is satan inspired and led. To commingle the scripture will lead to the confusion the body of Christ suffers today, the hope is still the same the message has not changed it is still Christ in you the hope of glory. Men lose hope because they dont see Christ as salvation though He is in the born again.

Your quote has a mixture of law and grace, I am curious if you have studied dividing the scriptures in your theology class. Im not trying to be smart just wondering if you have gotten into seperating what is to us and what is for us, such as many places in Romans and you quoted one where Paul is speaking directly to Israel as a nation, it has nothing to do with the born again church. Hope you take this in the spirit it is intended not trying to put you down. I would like to hear your understanding on dividing the word, thank you.

Salvation of the spirit comes down to one thing, Christ in you is salvation. "He that has the Son has life, he that has not the Son does not have life", 1st John 5:12

Ro 5:15-17 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) NKJV Perhaps you struggle with the word free Paradigm is not salvation and works but the salvation and sanctifcation... You see if Jesus is within us, by the free gift of just asking Him to come into us, then His presence will be seen by that which we do! If we do not do the things He did then we may doubt, as others, the reality of the asking! Love, Steven The birthing unlocks the scriptures to see Christ as your only life. Predistination is being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, simply means those that believe will be placed in Christ. Freewill is never violated, who so ever believeth shall be saved. You are not alone in this search, many are searching for their salvation, they have the scriptures but cant put them together. No man can not with out the help of the Holy Spirit. Depending on back ground, culture and religious up bringing will determine how you view the bible. Some will see God one way and some will see Him another way just depending on how you were raised at home as well as in a church setting. The birthing is as simple as seeing Christ who is our life, that revelation will unlock to every believer the scriptures, not to prove a point but see Him in all the scriptures. Revelation is Spirit taught knowledge, it is the Holy Spirit teaching us Christ, the Christ that is in every believer being taught to you as your only life. You see we feel like we have a life of our own but the truth is Christ is the only life you have. Most will spend a life time trying to get that fixed in them which is good but with out a revelation of the indwelling Christ it is impossible to see Him as your only life. so you are saying once we receive the free gift that God doesn't expect anything of us? After we are saved we live how we want? There are two extremes: I have to work to keep it I don't have to do anything to keep it I am somewhere in the middle. I understand that I cannot earn it and "keeping it" is not by my works, yet I also understand that the commands of God are for me and therefore there are things that are expected of me. The Bible does not have any contradictions, but one can correctly state that it appears to. It does come down to rightly dividing the Word of truth. I have been seeking answers to this question of OSAS verses doctrines whereby one can lose their salvation for years, and have listened to both sides. The missing link, for no better way to describe it, is predestination and election, as is found in Romans. Most don't want to believe that if you are saved, it is because God chose you, and you didn't choose him, but that is exactly what scripture says. If you can accept that as true, the rest falls into place. Those that God enlightened will accept Jesus as their savior, and live for him. Those that God did not choose will either reject Christ entirely, have a superficial head knowledge without a relationship, or fall away when persecutions arise. It is all according to God's sovereign will. He is the potter, and we are but clay. It was only my intellect that caused me to take so long to accept the truth. I had done the same thing most others have, put God into a box or my own pre-conceived ideas. I thought to myself, God wouldn't be this way, or act in a certain manner, rather than just accept scritpure for what it teaches.

Both sides of the argument have the right scriptures for making their point but those scriptues haves to be properly divided. Soul and spirit must be divided to see when the scriotures is speaking in terms of soul or is it speaking in terms os spirit. We do have both and the honest student will have to see that the scriptures appear to contradict themselves but that is foolish the word of God has no contradictions. That is the reason for the unbelievers argument of saying the bible contradicts it self when we as believers know that it absolutly does not. Christians have to divide soul and spirit or you will sound just like a nonbeliever never coming to greater and present truth.

When iron sharpens iron, sparks will fly. Can you handle it or should you just write a book? My thought, is it pleasing to the Lord the way we handle each other in these forums, what I think or believe and what other believers think and believe doesnt really matter to the Lord, my opinion. The way we deal with each other and glorify Him in this world with the unregenerent has to be the greater issue

There is so little mention of soul in the NT because once Christ was joined to the believers spirit nothing more could be done to improve the condition of that spirit. In the OT salvation was something done soulishly and the spirit (Adams nature) was to be brought under subjection. That was tenuous work because even the greatest people in the OT had a difficult time bringing their spirit under subjection. When Paul recieved his revelation of the mystery he understood that God did something. Man had nothing to do with this revelation at all. In a way salvation salvation had reversed it self. Why dont some of you scholars in here start a thread of your own and lets take a look at your understanding, instead of you punching everyone around, use a little wisdom and be a little slower to speak and listen to the Spirit

To understand the birthing or what it means to be born again a little history might be helpful. In the OT salvation was of the soul. That sounds very simple because as we grew up in religion you have soul winning campaigns and everyone was encouraged to be a soul winner. The use of the word soul is really OT terminology. In the OT the saving of a soul was all there could be. There was no saving of the spirit by Christ coming into the believers spirit because Christ was not yet in that form. Christ had not yet died on the cross, and Paul had not had his revelation of the mystery.