allofgrace

That passage is talking about those that are after the flesh and living according to the flesh not being subject to the law of God and neither indeed can be as long as they are controlled by the fleshly nature. But just as Paul will say of the Jews in chapter 10 of Romans, the reason they were cut off and the Gentiles were grafted in is because the Jews tried to establish their own righteousness according to the law instead of by faith(Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.) And in the next chapter of Romans 11 Paul says that if they do not continue in unbelief that they will be grafted back in, Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. And the same will apply to these in chapter 8 if they will repent and respond to the Holy Spirit through the word of God by faith, they will no longer be living in the flesh but by faith in the Son of God. Again, that is the reason of the gospel, Jesus came into the world to save sinners, not saints in disguise which is never shown in scripture. Every person saved was before dead in trespass and sin and they become children of God by faith in Christ Jesus, John 1:12. That goes without saying. Who is the Holy Spirit convicting of sin, judgment and righteousness, except sinner. And as stated in John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. The scripture does not limit the whosoever thirst may come, only some Calvinist place that restriction in there. I don't see it written in my Bible, but I do see whosoever will come, take of the water of life freely. No where in scripture does it teach the sinner has life and a change of heart before believing, that is more reading between the lines instead of reading the print on the lines. But it is the Holy Spirit revealing the truth of the word to the sinner and guiding them in the truth, and they must receive it by faith and receive Jesus, John 1:12. Show what you said so that I can read it from scripture like you state it. Here is the scriptural way, Eph 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Yes I was chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world to be transformed into His image because the scriptures say that whosoever shall call on His name shall be saved(Rom 10:13). And Rom 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Therefore, seeing as how I received Him when the gospel revealed to me my sinfulness and my need to have my sins forgiven, they also told me that God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. I believed Him and received Him as my Savior therefore as the Romans 8 passage says, all things work together for good to those who God, to those who are the called according to His purpose and the next 2 verses being in context must be true also because they were inspired by the Holy Spirit of Truth. Therefore, being an heir with Christ I am sealed unto the day of redemption. But when the scripture says God commands all men to repent, I believe He commands all men to repent and that they are capable of obeying. When He says whosoever will may come, I believe He means whosoever will may come. That is the purpose of Christ coming into the world as I understand it, to seek and to save that which is lost. And like He said, He did not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. John 6:63 it is the Spirit that makes one alive, the flesh profits nothing the words that I speak to you, they are spirit and they are life. This is the reason that the dead in trespass and sin can hear the good news to come to repentance because the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes. I believe His word is true as it is written without explaining away the words that are used in scripture.

I noticed the one you was posting to is away for a few days and as you state in your first sentence, I have not kept up except with a hit and miss reading. But I did notice above that the other was made aware that one of his terms was not scriptural and I noticed these two words I highlighted are not in the scriptures either, regardless of which is preferred. And you mentioned His sheep hear His voice, but they are already saved if they are His sheep so that is not strange. And John 1:12 says one becomes a child of God by receiving Christ so they cannot be His sheep prior to receiving Him by faith. Calvinist do have a way with explaining their opinions which are contrary to scripture, like the elect are regeneration in order to believe, but they are not forced to believe but do so freely. But they do not believe that the gospel has the power of God in it with enough power to convict the sinner of their sins because they are dead in their trespass and sins. But they over look the fact that they too, are dead in trespass and sin before they are regeneration in order to believe freely. Seems like it works for one group but not for the other. I don't recall where that is found, could you point me to that passage(s). Not to mention that God calls all men to repent (Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,) Sure sounds like must include all men every where to repent. How can it be even the Calvinist special term, a general call if they can not hear the call? Until both sides can use the same words printed in the scriptures equally, there will be no resolutions or coming to terms as I see it. Just remarked because I saw the contradiction that one should use scriptural terms and wanted to see if that applied to both sides of the issue.

I see these crowns in their fullness being fulfilled in the believers at the end of this age going into the eternal age. They are made possible by being placed in Christ, and they are fulfilled by His imputed righteousness in their fullness for this reason. Then we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1John5:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1. The Incorruptible Crown 1 Cor 9:25 the glorified body 2. The Crown of Rejoicing 1 Thess 2:19 being in the presence of the Lord with all the saints 3. The Crown of Life James 1:12 Eternal life with the Lord in glory 4. The Crown of Righteousness 2 Tim 4:7 Perfected in Righteousness, completely holy in our every action, no more sin ability 5. The Crown of Glory 1 Pet 5:4 Glorification, we shall be like Him and share in His glory John 17:24

If we look at 1 Chron 21:1 all can see that this is an incident like in Job 1 when God allowed Satan to tempt Job, but in this case He allowed Satan to tempt David even though David knew he should not number the people as Joab tried to warn him. 1 Chron 21:14a Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. 2 So David said to Joab and to the leaders of the people, “Go, number Israel from Beersheba to Dan, and bring the number of them to me that I may know it.” 3 And Joab answered, “May the Lord make His people a hundred times more than they are. But, my lord the king, are they not all my lord’s servants? Why then does my lord require this thing? Why should he be a cause of guilt in Israel?” 4 Nevertheless the king’s word prevailed against Joab.

I believe that Selene is right about God the Father and Jesus both being referred to as God our Savior as in 1 Tim 1:1-2 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope, 2 To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. Titus 2:4-7 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. It would be hard to say that both of these verses are not saying that both the Father and the Son are called Savior. The Titus passage is the strongest of the two in its wording but both seem to be pretty clear that both are referred to as Savior, at least to me. V4 says when the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior. Not to mention that the OT has several more that I believe would say the same.

Actually, the Bible does say that the Holy Spirit can speak through a man. Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. So, when the Apostles went around doing miracles and forgiving sins..... I believe it was actually the Holy Spirit in them doing it rather than them. Actually, if you read the verse you posted it says take no thought beforehand what you shall speak, neither do you premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in the hour, that speak you: for it is not you that speak, but the Holy Ghost. It is the Holy Spirit giving the words, but it is the person doing the speaking. This is what is meant by their being filled with the Spirit. Filled means full and He is leading and the person is following exactly as He leads. I mention this because many are confused when the scriptures say in several different places that the same Apostle or another was filled with the Holy Spirit, it simply means that at that precise moment they are expressing the exact message that He intends for them to say. The believer has all of the Holy Spirit they will ever receive but the more one learns the scripture and applies it the more the Holy Spirit has of them. They grow in their obedience by following His leadership and that mostly is by obeying the word of God and when our actions match the word of God then we are filled with the Holy Spirit and that is the reason we responded as we did, because without Him we can do nothing, all of our good thoughts and deed originate from Him as this verse show in Phil 2:13 for it is God working in you to will and to do of His good pleasure.

In my post I stated that if one believed what the gospel says then the person would be able to tell them theirs sin are forgiven. No where in scripture does it say if another person forgives you of something you did to them or someone else they loved and they ask you to forgive them that God goes along with the forgiveness. I made it clear, only God can forgive sin. Not saying you implied I said that, but just wanted to make what I said clear. Have a good day.

Good perspective. I think I agree. Perhaps if you would clarify though do you agree with Selene's statement that the Apostles forgave sin and today people can forgive sin as well? Curious. God bless, GE No, I do not agree with her statement at all about the Apostles being able to forgive sins. As I said in my post, I believe what Jesus was saying was that when they preached the gospel about Him being the Lamb of God that whosoever believed them would receive forgiveness of their sins from the Lord. Only God can forgive sins but whoever believes the gospel, any believer then can tell them that their sin debt is paid in full.

Mark 2:5-7 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.” 6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?” The scribes knew that scriptures stated that only God could forgive sins and that is why they were saying that Jesus was committing blasphemy. The passage in John 20:22-23 is teaching the same principle that is mentioned in Matt 18:18-20 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” The passage in John 20 is shortly after Jesus arose from the grave and appeared to these Apostles and He was telling them that when they proclaimed the gospel they had the authority to tell the people that whosoever believed on the Son of God could receive the forgiveness of their sins. The Holy Spirit gave them the power to perform miracles and wonders to be a witness that the Lord had authorized these men to preach the good news and that they could have forgive by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. This was the beginning of the church age and after the book of Acts and the there are no more mentioning of some types of the events as in Acts. The principle is the same in Matt 18:18-20 when the church comes together to deal with an erring brother or sister in a dispute that when two or three are together and make the decision according to the word of God that it is bound in heaven and He agrees with their actions, and what they loose on earth He is in agreement with their actions. This is all dependent on following the leadership of the Holy Spirit and the word of God being in agreement with their actions. Every believer has the same authority when they follow the word of God and they tell a sinner what Paul said in Romans 10:9-10 or even as he told the jailer when asked what must I do, Paul said believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved and that implies their sins are forgiven them.

I thought a question mark came after a question, is that wrong? Even you admitted that the asking is not in the scripture and then say it places a lot on assumption. One does not confess assumption, they confess their sins is what I stated. To each their own.

When you admit you have sinned, does it make any difference if you don't ask for forgiveness? You say to God, I have lied. Is that good enough? If you say you are sorry, and mean it, you have an expectation to be forgiven; therefore, by default, you are asking for forgiveness. Yet, you are correct. The phrase "ask for forgiveness" is not in the bible, but the implication is. The difference to me is that by confessing the sin and thanking Him for His forgiveness is that it is by faith that you are claiming what has already been given and not asking Him to do something that He has already promised. When one is in Christ they have already been perfected in Christ forever in their position in Him and if all believers knew that then we would not be discussing this question whether all sins are forgiven or not. Like any other obedience, we do so by faith, the just live by faith. But I will agreed that the liberty I believe is there, each will have to do as their heart will allow.

I do not believe there is any sin that has not been atoned for that the Christian will ever commit. Jesus not only paid the sin debt for ones past sins, but for every sin they would ever commit. He is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). That is not a license to sin which in itself is contrary to being a Christian. One comes to Christ for forgiveness and the authority to live a spirit filled life. They are new creations in Christ Jesus. Except in the model prayer where it says we are to say forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us, I do not recall another that says the believer is to ask for forgiveness of a sin. There are many places where it says we are to confess our sins and Christ is faithful who will forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.(1 John 1:9). So I confess a sin and thank Him for His cleansing me from all sins. If one will examine even the OT the Lord told them to confess their sin and make the proper sacrifice for that sin. Look up the word confess and read all the places it is used and you will discover this truth. If one has to recall ever sin they ever commit and repent of that sin, what happens if they miss one? Or can you miss two, or even 3? Are dead works from sins of the flesh, suppose one doesn't think so and never confesses it as sin? We know there are works which are wood, hay and stubble that will burn, one loses rewards, but not their salvation. We should confess all our sins, but I believe they are all forgiven in the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified. Heb 10:14) He is our High Priest and like those in the OT who are types or pictures of Him we can see that in the sin offering they are to confess and bring the sacrifice and the High Priest administers that sacrifice for their sins for the year. The one perfect Lamb of God by His one time offering fulfilled it which took away their sins for they were just passed over, just as He by the one offering paid our sin debt for all our sins. This below passage is an example of what is taught about confessing sin and is the principle throughout scripture. Confess and claim the cleansing by faith in the one offering of the Lamb of God. Lev 16:20-34 “And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat. 21 Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. 22 The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness. 23 “Then Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of meeting, shall take off the linen garments which he put on when he went into the Holy Place, and shall leave them there. 24 And he shall wash his body with water in a holy place, put on his garments, come out and offer his burnt offering and the burnt offering of the people, and make atonement for himself and for the people. 25 The fat of the sin offering he shall burn on the altar. 26 And he who released the goat as the scapegoat shall wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward he may come into the camp. 27 The bull for the sin offering and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the Holy Place, shall be carried outside the camp. And they shall burn in the fire their skins, their flesh, and their offal. 28 Then he who burns them shall wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward he may come into the camp. 29 “This shall be a statute forever for you: In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether a native of your own country or a stranger who dwells among you. 30 For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the Lord. 31 It is a sabbath of solemn rest for you, and you shall afflict your souls. It is a statute forever. 32 And the priest, who is anointed and consecrated to minister as priest in his father’s place, shall make atonement, and put on the linen clothes, the holy garments; 33 then he shall make atonement for the Holy Sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tabernacle of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly. 34 This shall be an everlasting statute for you, to make atonement for the children of Israel, for all their sins, once a year.” And he did as the Lord commanded Moses.

To each their own but ones personal opinions do not overrule scripture for many believers. I agree with Paul in 1 Tim 1:12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day. Phil 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. I can read these verses as written and believe they are true without exception to those trusting in Christ, others cannot believe them as written because their assurance is not in trusting the word of God but their believing that those who fall away were ever saved in the first place. God forgives all sins of the believer and seals them with His Spirit unto the day of redemption, I believe as He says, He looks at the heart and knows the hearts of all men. We must agree to disagree.

He paid for them all with His death and resurrection, but they are not applied to the sin until true repentance is sought and applied. Those who believe in Universalism believe that everyone will be forgiven despite what they seek or who they follow. This is false teaching and should be avoided at all cost. Actually, I know Christians who believe that once we become a believer, get baptized, and acknowledge what Christ did for us then unrepentant sin and repentant sin are irrelevant. It's covered... they don't believe everyone is saved just those who believe. I am in no position to say whether or not they are on their way to hell, but I do believe they have been deceived. Heb 10:14-18 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. 15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. All sins of the believer are forgiven in the one sacrifice of Christ and there is therefore now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. What He started He will finish and He is the author and finisher of our faith(Heb 12:2) He makes the sinner into a saints(one set apart and make holy in Himself) and puts into their hearts to do His will, Phil 2:13 it is God working in you to will and to do of His good pleasure. He has determined to transform all that receive Christ that He will make them like His dear Son and in His sight all saints are glorified in Christ before the foundation of the world(Rom 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Romans 8:1 puts it best. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. The key is "those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit". Those who walk according to their flesh do have condemnation and need to repent. Those who walk according to His Spirit would never want to sin. I would agree with that conclusion. God is not fooled by false professions and seals only those whose sins are forgiven in Christ and who will endure to the end. The OP is does He forgive all their sins. As you say those being led by the Spirit are sealed unto the day of redemption.

He paid for them all with His death and resurrection, but they are not applied to the sin until true repentance is sought and applied. Those who believe in Universalism believe that everyone will be forgiven despite what they seek or who they follow. This is false teaching and should be avoided at all cost. Actually, I know Christians who believe that once we become a believer, get baptized, and acknowledge what Christ did for us then unrepentant sin and repentant sin are irrelevant. It's covered... they don't believe everyone is saved just those who believe. I am in no position to say whether or not they are on their way to hell, but I do believe they have been deceived. Heb 10:14-18 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. 15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. All sins of the believer are forgiven in the one sacrifice of Christ and there is therefore now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. What He started He will finish and He is the author and finisher of our faith(Heb 12:2) He makes the sinner into a saints(one set apart and make holy in Himself) and puts into their hearts to do His will, Phil 2:13 it is God working in you to will and to do of His good pleasure. He has determined to transform all that receive Christ that He will make them like His dear Son and in His sight all saints are glorified in Christ before the foundation of the world(Rom 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Yeah this is what I don't want to get into... a battle of verses, as though the verse you post trump the ones I post. However, for the sake of making a point; Now I will address Hebrews 10:17... are you trying to tell me that this verse, which is really talking about having our sins wiped clean at the cross, is trumping the following verses? Heb 6:4-8 NASB For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, (5) and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, (6) and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (7) For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; (8) but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. (Heb 10:26 NASB) For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, (Heb 10:27 NASB) but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. (Heb 10:38 NASB) BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. Luk 12:47-48 NASB "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, (48) but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more. Gal 5:19-21 NASB Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, (20) idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, (21) envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 1Th 4:7-8 NASB For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. (8) So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you. 1Pe 1:14-15 NASB As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, (15) but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 2Pe 2:20-22 NASB For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. (21) For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. (22) It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire." On and on, I can find many verses that would appear to contradict the way you're interpreting the verse you posted... however, I think we both know that these verses don't contradict one another, but should compliment one another.. to get the whole meaning. Actually I only posted the passage from Heb 10 and I let it mean what it actually says. You are the one that says I twisted it. God had it written to mean what He means, everyone doesn't believe what He wrote. I will stick with His words.

He paid for them all with His death and resurrection, but they are not applied to the sin until true repentance is sought and applied. Those who believe in Universalism believe that everyone will be forgiven despite what they seek or who they follow. This is false teaching and should be avoided at all cost. Actually, I know Christians who believe that once we become a believer, get baptized, and acknowledge what Christ did for us then unrepentant sin and repentant sin are irrelevant. It's covered... they don't believe everyone is saved just those who believe. I am in no position to say whether or not they are on their way to hell, but I do believe they have been deceived. Heb 10:14-18 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. 15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. All sins of the believer are forgiven in the one sacrifice of Christ and there is therefore now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. What He started He will finish and He is the author and finisher of our faith(Heb 12:2) He makes the sinner into a saints(one set apart and make holy in Himself) and puts into their hearts to do His will, Phil 2:13 it is God working in you to will and to do of His good pleasure. He has determined to transform all that receive Christ that He will make them like His dear Son and in His sight all saints are glorified in Christ before the foundation of the world(Rom 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

The only hole in this thinking is that from where God sits, time is not a restriction... Forgiveness happens in His dimension, where in time that blood was/is shed is irrelevant. From where God is, it all happens on one continuum... past, present and future are all but one to Him. Believing in Jesus, being baptized, and having faith in Him is not a one time affirmation... it is an ongoing affirmation that you profess daily from the time that you believed on... Now I am not saying that if one becomes weak, backslides, and doesn't die to self everyday that they will lose the promise... but what I am saying is that in time, with enough unrepentant rebellion and backsliding, one can fall out of the promise. That's what Hebrews is saying. So this is a very basic fundamental doctrine that cannot be denied. To deny it is to deny scripture and the Truth... to deny this is to set no boundaries for the manifestation of faith and belief... and the road is narrow and has boundaries. Jesus clearly explains this as the Lamb as well as later in scripture as the Lion... Again, I am not one who supports that one can never really be sure of their salvation because I believe those that are in Him and He in them, have eternal life and have that blessed assurance. I do support that one's faith and belief must be manifested in their walk for life. Obedience is a manifestation of faith... to love Yeshua is to obey Him. You can fall, stumble, and backslide temporarily and He will gladly accept us back when we repent of our lusts/sin and seek Him... but if you abuse the grace then you might be crossing the Galatians 6 boundary... Gal 6:7-8 The Scriptures 1998+ (7) Do not be led astray: Elohim is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he shall also reap. (8) Because he who sows to his own flesh shall reap corruption from the flesh, but he who sows to the Spirit shall reap everlasting life from the Spirit. Whose righteousness gets the saints to heaven, their own or the righteousness of Christ imputed to them? Will your car run on gasoline if there is no engine? Is it possible to claim to have Christ's righteousness and be a liar? How is His righteousness manifested? Are there conditions to get into heaven? Even after conversion? What does Rev 22:11-14 mean? ISR 1998 (11) “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy, let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart. (12) “And see, I am coming speedily, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work.1 (13) “I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. (14) “Blessed are those doing His commands, so that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of life, and to enter through the gates into the city. So to answer your question, His Righteousness is manifested in our believing. Our believing is manifested by our faith. Our faith is manifested in our love for Christ. Our love for Christ is manifested in our obedience in His commandments. His righteousness affords us the ability to either reject or accept His Truth. http://hissheep.org/...at_calvary.html So to question your answer, does the believer who does not walk in perfect obedience go to heaven on their righteousness or the righteousness of Christ? Or do they go to heaven? Okay, I'll try this again. By saying "believer", I will assume you mean a person who meets the prerequisites to be called a "believer"... the prerequisites being such things as being born again, walking the victory of the spirit, obeying His commandments, giving spirit, loving Christ, loving His church, and working out their salvation in faith. All these are manifestations of the faith of the believer. The fruits are evident. As far as walking in perfect obedience, I don't know exactly what you mean by that... You're either walking in obedience or you're not... if we stumble and sin while walking in obedience, then we have to confess it, repent of it and will remain in obedience. If you stumble and sin, don't confess it, and don't repent of it, then you aren't walking in obedience. If we're walking in disobedience, after coming to the knowledge of truth, that doesn't mean we automatically fall from grace but it does mean that we've started down that road to breaking the covenant. Sin can lead to more sin, which leads to other sin, and before you know it, you're outside of God's Will. From Experience, I know God will take us back once we repent in humility and cry out for His grace though. We need to have reverence for God that we don't die in disobedience...nothing is guaranteed at that point. It is the obedient that can claim God's righteousness through Christ. Because the lukewarm believer, walking in disobedience, will be spit out. And you've also made an assumption that we agree on what "imputed righteousness of Christ" is. You probably have this huge theology understanding of it, but my understanding of the righteousness, sanctification and redemption of Christ is what gives us the ability to have our previous sins forgiven... His Righteousness is from Him having no sin, and from dying, becoming the curse for man, and being resurrected .. and thus empowering us to walk in His Righteousness, having victory over sin. If we do sin after coming to the Knowledge, confess it, repent of it, then we are cleansed from that sin. It's not a free go to heaven ticket for anyone claiming to be a believer. If that was the case then Christ wouldn't have said "get away from me, I never knew you"... because those whom He rejects have and will have failed at meeting the basic prerequisites of a believer. There are many who call themselves a "believer" who aren't. So when a true believer goes to heaven, it will have been because of Christs wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption from God that it made it possible to believe, repent, and walk in the spirit. So it will always fall back to what He done on the cross, in that it was God's New Covenant established unto to man, to forgive man for his previously committed sins. Once you're under the new covenant, there is no excuse to walk in the flesh and sin but rather we are empowered to walk in the spirit without sin. That doesn't mean we don't fall into temptation and sin from time to time... but if we confess and repent of them then we have an advocate in Christ. You know thinking about all this, I realize that the same Spirit that is in Francis Chan, to challenge and reject it if necessary; man-made theology, traditions, and non-biblical practices, is the same Spirit that is in me. so after all that I take it is the not Christ's righteousness but the person's. Thanks, I will stick with believing it is the righteousness of Christ and being in Christ that makes the difference. But I do agree that the just will live by faith and be following the leadership of the Holy Spirit(Rom 8:14). But we add nothing to His righteousness and that is what paid our sin debt and gave us peace with God by grace through faith in His Son and having heard the gospel we believed and were sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption(Eph 1:13-14)

The only hole in this thinking is that from where God sits, time is not a restriction... Forgiveness happens in His dimension, where in time that blood was/is shed is irrelevant. From where God is, it all happens on one continuum... past, present and future are all but one to Him. Believing in Jesus, being baptized, and having faith in Him is not a one time affirmation... it is an ongoing affirmation that you profess daily from the time that you believed on... Now I am not saying that if one becomes weak, backslides, and doesn't die to self everyday that they will lose the promise... but what I am saying is that in time, with enough unrepentant rebellion and backsliding, one can fall out of the promise. That's what Hebrews is saying. So this is a very basic fundamental doctrine that cannot be denied. To deny it is to deny scripture and the Truth... to deny this is to set no boundaries for the manifestation of faith and belief... and the road is narrow and has boundaries. Jesus clearly explains this as the Lamb as well as later in scripture as the Lion... Again, I am not one who supports that one can never really be sure of their salvation because I believe those that are in Him and He in them, have eternal life and have that blessed assurance. I do support that one's faith and belief must be manifested in their walk for life. Obedience is a manifestation of faith... to love Yeshua is to obey Him. You can fall, stumble, and backslide temporarily and He will gladly accept us back when we repent of our lusts/sin and seek Him... but if you abuse the grace then you might be crossing the Galatians 6 boundary... Gal 6:7-8 The Scriptures 1998+ (7) Do not be led astray: Elohim is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he shall also reap. (8) Because he who sows to his own flesh shall reap corruption from the flesh, but he who sows to the Spirit shall reap everlasting life from the Spirit. Whose righteousness gets the saints to heaven, their own or the righteousness of Christ imputed to them? Will your car run on gasoline if there is no engine? Is it possible to claim to have Christ's righteousness and be a liar? How is His righteousness manifested? Are there conditions to get into heaven? Even after conversion? What does Rev 22:11-14 mean? ISR 1998 (11) “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy, let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart. (12) “And see, I am coming speedily, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work.1 (13) “I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. (14) “Blessed are those doing His commands, so that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of life, and to enter through the gates into the city. So to answer your question, His Righteousness is manifested in our believing. Our believing is manifested by our faith. Our faith is manifested in our love for Christ. Our love for Christ is manifested in our obedience in His commandments. His righteousness affords us the ability to either reject or accept His Truth. http://hissheep.org/...at_calvary.html So to question your answer, does the believer who does not walk in perfect obedience go to heaven on their righteousness or the righteousness of Christ? Or do they go to heaven?

The only hole in this thinking is that from where God sits, time is not a restriction... Forgiveness happens in His dimension, where in time that blood was/is shed is irrelevant. From where God is, it all happens on one continuum... past, present and future are all but one to Him. Believing in Jesus, being baptized, and having faith in Him is not a one time affirmation... it is an ongoing affirmation that you profess daily from the time that you believed on... Now I am not saying that if one becomes weak, backslides, and doesn't die to self everyday that they will lose the promise... but what I am saying is that in time, with enough unrepentant rebellion and backsliding, one can fall out of the promise. That's what Hebrews is saying. So this is a very basic fundamental doctrine that cannot be denied. To deny it is to deny scripture and the Truth... to deny this is to set no boundaries for the manifestation of faith and belief... and the road is narrow and has boundaries. Jesus clearly explains this as the Lamb as well as later in scripture as the Lion... Again, I am not one who supports that one can never really be sure of their salvation because I believe those that are in Him and He in them, have eternal life and have that blessed assurance. I do support that one's faith and belief must be manifested in their walk for life. Obedience is a manifestation of faith... to love Yeshua is to obey Him. You can fall, stumble, and backslide temporarily and He will gladly accept us back when we repent of our lusts/sin and seek Him... but if you abuse the grace then you might be crossing the Galatians 6 boundary... Gal 6:7-8 The Scriptures 1998+ (7) Do not be led astray: Elohim is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he shall also reap. (8) Because he who sows to his own flesh shall reap corruption from the flesh, but he who sows to the Spirit shall reap everlasting life from the Spirit. Whose righteousness gets the saints to heaven, their own or the righteousness of Christ imputed to them?

You are welcome your post was very interesting and informative. I meant that the words the KJV translate as tempted and tempt in Luke 4 do not necessarily have the same meaning or application. The temptation satan applied to Jesus was to entice Him to sin and the temptation Jesus would not apply to God was not to entice God to sin. I agree the words tempt and test can be applied in the same manner. The question is if they should be applied in the same manner in Luke 4. There is a debate on the application of tempt in this chapter which can be seen in several reputable translations as you would know. Yes this is my position. We can see in the scriptures the "inner" torment Jesus endure like in Gesthamane bless our dear Lord for this terrible time of suffering. Mat 26:41-42 KJV Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. (42) He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. May i request that you cease to refer to your discussions with Mike when responding to me. I have not fully considered everything in your discussions and would like to concentrate on ours. I don't believe Jesus had sin "in him" in the same manner as the first Adam did not have sin "in him" until he succumbed. Do you believe the first Adam was born/created with sin "in him" ? I agree it is most important not to introduce our perceptions into bible teachings. I believe the bible is clear that Jesus came in the likeness of man yet was still God. I believe Jesus had no sin in Him in the same manner as the first Adam. Jesus also told us His Father was greater than He. This does not mean Jesus was any less God than God It does show that Jesus put aside His position to fulfill the propitiatory requirements, to satisfy justice, and to show God's love for man. Heb 2:17 KJV Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. Php 2:6-7 KJV Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Just to show this one passage which goes along with what you were saying at the end of your last post about Jesus and the Father, though here I would not use the word greater myself. In one sense like the husband and wife God has ordained the man head of the family but it does not meant that one is superior over the other. Just like the Father will exalt the Jesus and Jesus desires that the Father be glorified in all that He does and the Holy Spirit does not draw attention to Himself but to the Lord that the Father be glorified in the Son. And at the end of all this the Son will hand the kingdoms of the world over to the Father as this verse says and is a subject all to itself which few people take notice of, but pay special attention to Rev 11:15 in addition to this: 1 Cor 15:26-28 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Welcome 2404!!! Blessings. So your saying God is "Sovereign -Mans term, but used to make a point" Not because He just picks and chooses this or that at his whim, but He is Sovereign because He would never change for anyone what He said, as it's the right Choice for everyone, as he knows what that right choice would be? So, if he said, Thou shalt not steal, then Not stealing would be the best choice for everyone. Instead of him choosing certain people for it to be OK to steal because He's God and does what he wants. Also, coming in with just a theory is fine, but out of respect to other posters it might also be good to address their concerns and scriptures. Jesus Is Lord. Someone may be thinking who died and him chief?

ninhao You are right on that, all Jesus was telling the Devil was that His jumping off would be tempting God by doing something so foolish just to prove He was the Son of God. It's like those that say no weapon formed against me will prosper and someone is aiming a shotgun at them and says to them they will shoot them if they move and the person steps toward the person anyway, what will be the result and why, the person was putting God to the test by being foolish. The quote Jesus used is from Ps 91:11-12 and it says nothing about jumping off the top of a Temple. One said he would use this saying if confronted with a bomb and I thought, he might, but only once. One must be careful how they make a doctrine out of verse and then put God to the test. Ps 91:11-12 For He shall give His angels charge over you, To keep you in all your ways. 12 In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone. 1 Cor 10:9-11 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Ps 78: 17-22 But they sinned even more against Him By rebelling against the Most High in the wilderness. 18 And they tested God in their heart By asking for the food of their fancy 19 Yes, they spoke against God: They said, “Can God prepare a table in the wilderness? 20 Behold, He struck the rock, So that the waters gushed out, And the streams overflowed. Can He give bread also? Can He provide meat for His people?” 21 Therefore the Lord heard this and was furious; So a fire was kindled against Jacob, And anger also came up against Israel, 22 Because they did not believe in God, And did not trust in His salvation. Ex 17:1-7 Then all the congregation of the children of Israel set out on their journey from the Wilderness of Sin, according to the commandment of the Lord, and camped in Rephidim; but there was no water for the people to drink. 2 Therefore the people contended with Moses, and said, “Give us water, that we may drink.” So Moses said to them, “Why do you contend with me? Why do you tempt the Lord?” 3 And the people thirsted there for water, and the people complained against Moses, and said, “Why is it you have brought us up out of Egypt, to kill us and our children and our livestock with thirst?” 4 So Moses cried out to the Lord, saying, “What shall I do with this people? They are almost ready to stone me!” 5 And the Lord said to Moses, “Go on before the people, and take with you some of the elders of Israel. Also take in your hand your rod with which you struck the river, and go. 6 Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock in Horeb; and you shall strike the rock, and water will come out of it, that the people may drink.” And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel. 7 So he called the name of the place Massah and Meribah, because of the contention of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the Lord, saying, “Is the Lord among us or not?” Makes one think how terrible it is to doubt God's promises and word. It puts Him to the test by saying He want fulfill His word. But we also have to be careful not to test Him by trying to apply His word to our whims.

I have had temptations similar to this. The only problem is that temptation means to entice. Jesus was tempted at all points. As much as we don't want to say the Lord was moved at all, to do that we would have to change the Word the Holy Spirit used to something else. I don't believe his walk down here as a man was just a cakewalk. I actually believe he had to fight his flesh, and overcome. He had to use the Word against Satan. There is no defense if you don't feel tempted or threatened. I have a hard time diminishing what he had to endure and go through. Not saying anyone here is, but He was not operating as God, He was operating as man with the Holy Spirit. The same way we have to operate. Being the Son of God, did not mean he had access to all his Glory and power. I fully believe he had to do this as a man, under the Law for it to be valid. I don't believe it was that easy on him. Jesus Is Lord. But you are forgetting He did not come with a sinful nature as everyone has that is born of Adam. He came as the 2nd Adam and never consented to sinful desires, He resisted them. You are entitled to your opinion and the only reason I even respond on it is because you make it seem like your view is scriptural without a doubt and it is surely not the accepted view which has been taught for hundreds of years. How many others writers of NT commentaries share your point of view? The majority is not always right, but it says something when ones views are not shared by many over the years.

He took on sin when he went to the cross BTW.................. Gary, it's not a temptation if it does not entice you. Not enticement, no temptation. If I say, Gary, lets go rob us a bank. We need the money. You drive, I'll go in and get the cash. You look at me as if I stepped off a space ship saying. No way. you crazy? Now get out of here Mike and don't come back unless you get some sense about you. That is not a temptation to rob a bank. You did not give robbing a bank even a second thought. You don't have to have sin in you to be tempted, you have to have a flesh body, and you have to have your own desire. Just as God told Satan. You keep trying to entice me to put my hand on Job without cause. There is no reason to hurt Job. God was not moved a bit by Satan and his nonsense. Satan lies through his teeth, why listen to him anyway? Now a man at the store accidentally drops 20.00 on the ground and walks away. I spot it, look around, and pick it up. I really could use that 20.00 I think. No, it's not right, I better chase the man down and give it back. I run the man down and hand him his 20.00 he dropped. I was tempted. I don't have theft in me, because I don't steal, yet at that moment the idea came to keep that money. I still did not sin though, I made the right choice and gave the money back. Jesus was tempted at all points. He had to make the right choice, though there was some pull on him to do different. There is a difference in the desire of the flesh and strong spirit. Which one wins? Jesus had to deal with being a man, and showed us how that is done, because he went through the same things. Jesus Is Lord. Your understanding of temptation is different than what I believe the scriptures teach. When one is tempted to sin and does as you suggest concerning the suggestion of robbing a bank, when the person said no, I resist that temptation and will have no part of it, that is not sin but it is the way saints are to respond every time when tempted to sin, neither give place to the Devil. And you said yourself one has to have their own desire to sin, and Jesus did not have the desire to sin and your reasoning does not equal scripture as proof that He did just because He walked in the flesh. Your illustration about the $20 is the difference in your thinking and the difference in what Jesus would have thought in the first place. And neither of us know His exact thoughts but He is the spotless Lamb of God and when one grows in their sanctification when they see the person drop the $20 dollar bill they will automatically say to him, you dropped your money. One does not have to think, I will keep it.