Widor1

From the article: 'These so-called Side B Christians identify as gay and believe it's not sinful to do so. But because they see acting on their orientation as ungodly, they commit to a life of celibacy.' '...and Side Bs, who accept their orientation but commit to celibacy in order to remain in line with anti-homosexuality tenets.' '"Every day, Allen wakes up and looks around, and he sees guys he wants to have sex with — and he doesn't have sex with them because he's following Jesus," the male administrator said. "And every day, I wake up, and I see girls I want to have sex with — and I don’t have sex with them because I’m following Jesus. So, we’re both not getting any because we’re following Jesus."' I'm not sure if calling yourself gay is a sin. On the one hand, God didn't create gay, and it is clear how He feels about that lifestyle. However, if we change the words in the article to say "sinner" instead of "Side B Christians" or "gay", I'm not sure this thread would have continued as long as it has. Whether you believe these men to be brothers, or non believers, how would you talk to them if they were in a room with you? If brothers, encouragement and discipleship; if non believers, evangelism; always with love and grace, showing the heart of Jesus. Whatever the opinion, it is clear to me that the Holy Spirit is convicting them; maybe He's not finished with them yet. 1Co 7:32 But I want you to be without care. He who is unmarried cares for the things of the Lord—how he may please the Lord. 1Co 7:33 But he who is married cares about the things of the world—how he may please his wife. Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. Rom 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

~ Amen~! You stole my quote! Double Amen

I really appreciate your words on this. I grew up celebrating Passover and all the other Jewish holidays, and since becoming a Christian I still struggle with how to celebrate these. I have been studying the Lord's Supper with regards to the frequency of it, and this scripture really speaks to me. "For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup..." I agree, I can't find anything that either limits or mandates such things as these. With Passover, and especially Yom Kippur, I did not feel that me abstaining from leavened or fasting were necessary anymore. Reading this entire thread has definitely given me a lot to chew over, and I look forward to studying it more in depth

So, did Jesus fulfill the Law and the Prophets Widor? If so then does verse 18 now apply? Matthew 5:18 New International Version 1984 (NIV1984) 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. The problem I see you having to explain is that if you say that Jesus has fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, then all is accomplished. If that is the case then the heaven and earth referred to will also have had to disappear. If you say that Jesus did not fulfill everything required of God as listed in the Law and the Prophets then we are still living under the Old Covenant, are we not? But Jesus repeatedly says that He came to make a new covenant in His blood, and from Hebrews alone I think an exceedingly good case can be made that this has been accomplished by His death alone. If it has been accomplished then what do you make of Hebrews 8:13 for starters? Can you answer any of these questions for me? That is why I asked GE if we were still under the Law of Moses and also went on to explain why I see this as very unlikely. Peter Jesus did not come to destroy the Law or Prophets, as it says in Matthew 5:17. He came to fulfill them. The law was not destroyed, and is still alive today. It is in our nature to follow the law, as an outflow via the Holy Spirit. The Prophets were not just people who gave prophesies involving the future; they were dispensing God's divine Word (like Moses, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), and aren't separate from the law. Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Matthew 5:18 points back to verse 17, reiterating that no meaning will be lost from the law because of Jesus. We are free from the law of sin and death because Jesus imputed His righteousness onto us. I would say verse 18 from Matthew 5 does apply now. The last time I checked, we are still on the same earth, and a new one (along with a new heaven) has not surfaced to my knowledge. Hebrews 8:13 is a summation of verses 8-12, taken straight from Jeremiah 31. Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Seems to me the writer of Hebrews suggests that the Old Covenant law, while it is becoming obsolete, and is growing old and ready to vanish away, hasn't yet. Jeremiah was written before Jesus, and Hebrews was written after. Why wouldn't the author just write that it IS obsolete and HAS vanished away? We are not still under the law of Moses, but the Old Covenant was not destroyed.

I have two different friends. Both of these women are separated from their husbands and on the way to divorce, if it hasn't happened already. Both are experiencing very tough times. Both are incredibly vulgar, full of maliciousness at times, and have shown disdain for the gospel. The only difference that I see in them is that one is a professed non Christian with a two year old child, and the other is childless and has said she was a Christian as long as I have known her. I have known them both for a very long time, even before I was a follower of Christ. I would not say that I am close with them (I began separating myself from people, places, and things that did not seem to include Jesus, and many of my friends fell into that category), although we do chat from time to time. I have spoken to both of them about their separations, trying to be a friend when they seemed to be very lost and down. I am the type of person that does not like conflict. Although I do speak to them about Jesus, the bible, filling the empty hole in our hearts, and having a relationship with God, I seem to be more concerned with pushing them away from Jesus when I give advice. I don't think I hold back my feelings; but maybe because I don't give them blunt advice about what they are doing wrong, and what they should do, I feel like I am missing something. My experiences growing up dealing with Christians included judgement, mocking, blame, and gossip. I never want to come off like that, and I'm very conscious of how I say things to people. I believe that Jesus is the only way. He is my best friend and love of my life, and I would truly have nothing without Him. I want my friends who are seeking to know this feeling, and I want to be able to express it to them; but if they are not seeking the truth, what is the best way to give advice during their trials? What are good ways to show that your heart is genuine and that you care, but also be firm and address the sin in a non-judging way? Thank you for taking the time to think about this!

Earlier in this thread Golden Eagle listed three of the main covenants in the Bible. One of the things God promises to Abraham is that “in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed” (Gen. 12:3). I believe this is a definite foreshadowing of Jesus, for all (Jew and Gentile), and proof that the covenant is still everlasting. Abraham was faithful to God, and obeyed Him; God rewarded him with a promise. The covenant was based on Abraham’s faith, something he already had. The Hebrews 8 verses 6-13 you mention refer to the Mosaic covenant, which was based on the “if, then” that Golden Eagle talks about. They broke it, not God. God did not say that it would be everlasting, and it was faultless because the people of Israel were faultless, not God. Jeremiah 31:31-34 “Behold, the days are coming, says theLord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the daythatI took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[a]says theLord.33 But thisisthe covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says theLord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know theLord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says theLord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” The need for a new covenant was there, since the Israelites had broken the first one. This is a promise of Jesus, for the Jews. God is still the God of the Jews, or else He would have not made this promise. Exodus 20:2-3 2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 “You shall have no other gods before Me. He is the God that they worship. Remember, Isaiah 6:9-10 is referring to the Jews. 9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ 10 “Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And return and be healed.” Some Jews do not recognize Christ. They have been made blind and deaf and cannot see the obvious. But that does not mean that God is not their God as well. As a Jew, I can assuredly tell you that the God of the Old Testament is the same God as the New Testament. At the right time, God will open their hearts to His new covenant, and to Christ. Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.”

I want a personal relationship with Christ. Have you accepted Him as your Savior? To be honest, no, I haven't. I really haven't, and I'm ashamed. I've let so many awful feelings and ideas cloud my thoughts, and I feel like I've become numb to the idea of letting him in. No matter how much I read the Bible, it all boils down to me retreating into myself when I can't handle things like my family, the pressure of finding a job or, someone who'd actually respond to me. The hardest part about having a relationship with God at first is complete surrender. There are things we are very willing to surrender to, and other things that we have to work months, and sometimes years, to finally get past. Mine was anger. I thought I was a follower of Christ, but I could not see past my anger to forgive those that hurt me. I prayed for months for God to give me the ability to forgive these people so I could move on, and it just never seemed to stick. I would see something to remind me, I would feel terrible bitterness in my heart, and I wanted to hurt them. Which in turn made me feel worse. The goal is Christ. When we take our eyes off the goal, everything falls apart. We cannot live at peace without Him, and if we ARE with out Him we will always feel like there is something missing. We will never be satisfied. In all my anger I went to church one day and heard a sermon on forgiveness. Really simple. Heard the verse from Mark 11:25. And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses. And it all clicked. How can I sit here and feel bad, feel mad, feel dissatisfied, when I myself have made people feel the same way? Brought a whole new meaning to the part of the Lord's prayer that says Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us (Matthew 6:12) Surrender is hard, and it is a constant battle. Whatever you are feeling dissatisfied about in your life, pray hard every single day until you get an answer. And trust me, you WILL get an answer, and it may not be one that you are expecting. But if you are truly seeking a relationship, God will listen, and you will be answered. For me, it started with surrender. Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. (Matthew 7:7-8) If we don't ever ask, why should we expect to get an answer? To the OP, thank you for asking these questions. I think a lot of people have thoughts like these, and they don't have the courage to seek answers. I believe because I sought very very hard for the truth, and when I thought I had found it, I kept searching until I did. Having a relationship with God is a constant lesson. If you have doubts, read the bible and write down questions about verses that you might not feel are true. Talk to lots of people about what they think of the verses, and do your own research. You will find the more you read the bible, if you read it with an open heart, the truth will clearly be presented to you. I used to have a lot of doubts, and I realized the more I fought it, the more strongly I could not deny that doubting would just be me lying to myself. Please seek the truth, if anything else, because you will not find anything if you do not try. God bless, and please keep asking questions!

Great post, and great questions. I particularly liked how you talked about letting the power of God work through you. If we are representing Christ in everything that we do, then our entire lives are worship, every day. Romans 12:1 says I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. This is one way that we are a light of the world. We should never stop representing Christ/worshiping because of the people we are around. As we give up our fleshly control and let the Spirit move in us, the fruits produced will naturally cause the light to shine, much brighter than if we try to shine it ourselves. Colossians 3:17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him. If we keep this in mind constantly, our light will not be contained.

D. We are experts at what we spend out time on. Our vocations and hobbies take up most of our day and people are comfortable doing what we know best. When we turn our minds to God, we tend to get confused. We have a hard time figuring out what God wants. We have a hard time listening to the Holy Spirit try to explain it to us. Even our bible study can be confusing. We read and find a piece of scripture that really burns in our heart and when we tell someone else about it, they might tell us about another verse the seems to contradict it. Two steps forward and one step back. E. Of course we do! Especially, the modern human who has been told from birth that we're all special and we live in a secular world where media tells that we can all be gods of our own little sphere of influence. Our fallen nature receives more confirmation of its own (secular) righteousness than any people have ever had before. F. If we are honest about all the above, then we aren't making as many excuses as many of the people who claim that these are all problems that other people have. Well said. This makes me think of Galations 5:16-18: 16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. If we can get through every day and ask ourselves that question of what God wants us to learn, and allow the Spirit to guide US, instead of US trying to guide the Spirit, we will be so much better off and more at peace. At least for me, I am at peace knowing I have a Heavenly Father in charge, even if I don't understand His will. Brother Mike, my best friend is a sister in Christ, and a couple of years ago her brother in law shot and killed her mother and sister at their home a few weeks after Christmas, then turned the gun on himself. She was very close to her family, and she was very heartbroken. Instead of blaming God losing her faith over this tragedy, she thanked Him for allowing her to speak to her mother on the phone extensively the night before she died, and praised His name at the funeral. I don't know why bad things happen, and I pray that if something like this happened to me, I would be able to see through my grief enough to know that God grieves with me, and something better is waiting for me than this life. Romans 8:18-27 explains that "the whole creation groans," and later says that even those of us who have the gift of the Spirit groan. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us[b] with groanings which cannot be uttered.27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Next verse: 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. God is righteous and holy, and I trust Him with my whole heart. If we can't trust God, there is nothing that matters.

Beautifully explained, whoever explained it! I believe that the "one baptism" discussed in Ephesians 4 is the one of the Holy Spirit, not the one of water. Just like in Mark 1:8, there is a distinction between Holy Spirit baptism and water baptism. So no, I don't believe that water baptism is essential to salvation, nor does a person get "saved" by a water baptism ; Jesus Christ is essential, and is the definition to, our salvation. Water baptism is an outflow of that salvation, an act of obedience. My understanding of this is based on the knowledge that Christ is my Messiah, and His sacrifice is what enables me to have a relationship with God. Talking of salvation through Christ, the bible references faith and confession of that faith (John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 10:9, etc), but it does not specifically say that water baptism is salvation. I believe as I do because not too long ago, I was a member of a Church of Christ, and was taught something far different. I was challenged by my future husband to study in depth why I believe this. After studying, I came to the conclusion that it is Jesus that saved me, not my act of being baptized by water. Thank you all for the great posts! I look forward to reading more