J-Andy

I hear what you're saying but what about the other tribes that are selaed in the Revelation? God collectiveky refers to all the Norhern tribes as "Ephraim" and what in its context is a prophecy about their restoration, Peter and Paul applied to the Gentile church. Unless Paul misapplied it, Ephraim (collectively the Northern tribes) is meant to include the 'many nations', making Abraham the father of 'many nations': I hear you, but in its context, the above prophecy was given by God to Hosea after God had told him to take a wife of adultery, and that wife represented not the non-Israelite nations (or 'non-Jews'), but the Northern Israelite tribes: (Hos 1:1) The Word of Jehovah that came to Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel. (Hos 1:2) The beginning of Jehovah speaking by Hosea. And Jehovah said to Hosea, Go, take to yourself a wife of adultery and children of adultery. For the land has utterly gone lusting away from Jehovah. (Hos 1:3) So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim, who conceived and bore him a son. (Hos 1:4) And Jehovah said to him, Call his name God Will Sow. For still in a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel on the house of Jehu, and will cause the kingdom of the house of Israel to cease. (Hos 1:5) And it shall be, at that day I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel. (Hos 1:6) And she conceived again and bore a daughter. And God said to him, Call her name No-mercy, for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel. But I will utterly take them away. (Hos 1:7) But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and will save them by Jehovah their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen. (Hos 1:8) And when she had weaned No-mercy she conceived and bore a son. (Hos 1:9) And He said, Call his name Not-my-people. For you are not My people, and I will not be for you. (Hos 1:10) Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God. (Hos 1:11) Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land. For great shall be the day of Jezreel. It is this prophecy which both Peter and Paul applied to Gentiles, and in its context it referred to Israel's Northern tribes. Also, Jospeh said of Ephraim: (Gen 48:17) And Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand on the head of Ephraim, and it was evil in his eyes. And he held up his father's hand to remove it from Ephraim's head to Manasseh's head. (Gen 48:18) And Joseph said to his father, Not so, my father. For this is the first-born. Put your right hand on his head. (Gen 48:19) And his father refused and said, I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great, but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he is, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations. That Hebrew word for "nations" is again "goy". It was Ephraim - specifically, in its context, referring to the 10 Northern ribes - upon whom God first had no mercy, and then promised He would again have mercy, and whom God called "not my people" and then promised He would call them "My people" and "the sons of the living God". In its context, the prophecy never referred to the many Gentile nations - and yet Paul and Peter apply it to the Gentile church.

Hello goldust59. I'm also sorry you feel that way about 'the manchild', as you call Jesus, which is the One the woman of Rev 12 brought forth. Your words that I highlighted are reminiscent of Peter in his zeal telling Jesus he would never deny Jesus, and cutting off the ear of the servant who came to arrest Jesus - not long before he denied Christ 3 times. There is way too much bigotry and pride which like yeast in bread has spread throughout Christianity, "A little leaven leavens the whole lump", and now it seems the time is coming when all but the remnant will have been leavened with this evil 'manchild' doctrine. It is blasphemous and diabolical and anti-Christ.

I have mediated in my heart over that also in the past, and haven't ditched the possibility, or the possibility that the 2 witnesses are 2 individuals: (Isa 43:10) Ye are My witnesses, saith the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me there was no God formed, neither shall any be after Me. (Isa 43:11) I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no saviour. (Isa 43:12) I have declared, and I have saved, and I have announced, and there was no strange god among you; therefore ye are My witnesses, saith the LORD, and I am God. Yes, there's Israel (Ephraim) and Judah. Ephraim was exiled to the nations, and has never returned, yet God promised Israel (Ephraim) that they would be returned to the land together with the house of Judah, and the two sticks would become one stick in the hand of Ephraim: (Eze 37:19) say into them: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his companions; and I will put them unto him together with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in My hand. The prophecies surrounding the restoration of Ephraim were quoted by Peter and Paul in reference to the Gentiles: (Rom 9:24) whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the nations? (Rom 9:25) As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved." (Rom 9:26) And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people; there they shall be called sons of the living God." That prophecy quoted by Paul in its O.T context referred to Ephraim - the Northern tribes. So I don't ditch what you are saying, nor do I ditch the fact that of all the Israelites in Ehypt, only 2 were given power over the waters, to turn them to blood, and they were also the 2 chosen to be God's witnesses to Pharaoh. When the two kingdoms were divided with two kings, the areas were often referred to by the two largest tribes; Ephraim and Judah. Ephraim had the bulk of 10 tribes (assuming Joseph's children, Manassah and Ephraim and split separately for 13 tribes), and that was only initially. So Ephraim was also called the Kingdom of Israel because it had more tribes living there. Judah had the tribe of Judah, Benjamin and most of Levi. As time went on, and due to the corruption of the Northern Kingdom, some of each of the 10 tribes moved south to Judea (the name of the southern Kingdom was Judea). When the Northern Kingdom was scattered thru multiple attacks by Assyria, some more of the 10 tribes escaped by running to Judea. When Babylon captured Judea, and carried off the inhabitants, they captured all 12 tribes living in Judea. Babylon called the captured people 'Jews' as they were from Judea. When the Jews were allowed to return to the land after 70 years, they were in touch with some of the scattered from Assyria, and some of all 12 tribes returned to the land of Israel to rebuild the Temple. They made a sacrifice for all 12 tribes, and for that sacrifice each tribe had to provide and animal for sacrifice for their own tribe. All 12 tribes are referred to as the children of Israel or the nation of Israel. In Hebrew, the word for nation is 'goy' and the word for nations is 'goyim' which of course is plural. So the nation of Israel would be the goy of Yisrael. In Hebrew, there is no word for gentile. Gentile means not-Jewish. To determine in scripture if the word goy(im) is referring to nation(s) which are not children of Israel/Jews, it must be done by context. So, when the scriptures refers to the nations, that is not referring to Ephraim. Ephraim is a tribe of israel. Israel is one nation, not nations. The term Jews includes Ephraim, so the nations refers to people who are not children of Israel in those statements. This is especially clear because it was prophesied that the non-Israel/Gentiles would be drawn to the Messiah. Gentiles, non-Jews, who have come to believe on Jesus are a fulfillment of prophesy from the OT. In the book of Acts, the Jewish apostles discussed what are the requirements for Gentiles who have received the Holy Spirit. They studied the OT and saw that Gentiles were to come to the Messiah. They knew that the children of Israel would be united in the land and the children of Israel were to believe on the Messiah, so if the Gentiles were actually Ephraim, there would have been no discussion. Today, the children of Israel are returning to the land of Israel. All 12 tribes. So the former Northern tribes and the former Southern tribes of the divided Kingdoms are all scattered and are today returning. Some of the groups returning know they were from the Northern tribes. They know their identity as it has been passed down thru the generations. Some are returning from India. Some from Africa. Some were in China. And some in the middle east. Deut 32:21 ‘They have made Me jealous with what is not God; They have provoked Me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation, Deut 32:21 talks about the time when the Gentiles would come to the Lord. Speaking to the children of Israel, God told them that He would form a people who are not a people. In scripture, a people refers to an ethnic group, a group from a common ancestor. Also usually called a nation, as a nation is a people group. So these people who are not a people refers to diverse people, from every tribe, tongue and nation. These people who are not single people group, is the church, made up of people from every tribe, tongue and nation, brought together to form a new nation/people group called the saints of God, or the Church. It is a foolish nation because it is not really a nation of people of a common ancestor but a diverse group no one would see as one, but God made this foolish nation. And this foolish nation is to make Israel jealous. (Hos 1:9) And He said, Call his name Not-my-people. For you are not My people, and I will not be for you. (Hos 1:10) Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God. (Hos 1:11) Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land. For great shall be the day of Jezreel. I hear you, but in its context, the above prophecy was given by God to Hosea after God had told him to take a wife of adultery, and that wife represented not the non-Israelite nations (or 'non-Jews'), but the Northern Israelite tribes: (Hos 1:1) The Word of Jehovah that came to Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel. (Hos 1:2) The beginning of Jehovah speaking by Hosea. And Jehovah said to Hosea, Go, take to yourself a wife of adultery and children of adultery. For the land has utterly gone lusting away from Jehovah. (Hos 1:3) So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim, who conceived and bore him a son. (Hos 1:4) And Jehovah said to him, Call his name God Will Sow. For still in a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel on the house of Jehu, and will cause the kingdom of the house of Israel to cease. (Hos 1:5) And it shall be, at that day I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel. (Hos 1:6) And she conceived again and bore a daughter. And God said to him, Call her name No-mercy, for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel. But I will utterly take them away. (Hos 1:7) But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and will save them by Jehovah their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen. (Hos 1:8) And when she had weaned No-mercy she conceived and bore a son. (Hos 1:9) And He said, Call his name Not-my-people. For you are not My people, and I will not be for you. (Hos 1:10) Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God. (Hos 1:11) Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land. For great shall be the day of Jezreel. It is this prophecy which both Peter and Paul applied to Gentiles, and in its context it referred to Israel's Northern tribes. Also, Jospeh said of Ephraim: (Gen 48:17) And Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand on the head of Ephraim, and it was evil in his eyes. And he held up his father's hand to remove it from Ephraim's head to Manasseh's head. (Gen 48:18) And Joseph said to his father, Not so, my father. For this is the first-born. Put your right hand on his head. (Gen 48:19) And his father refused and said, I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great, but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he is, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations. That Hebrew word for "nations" is again "goy". It was Ephraim - specifically, in its context, referring to the 10 Northern ribes - upon whom God first had no mercy, and then promised He would again have mercy, and whom God called "not my people" and then promised He would call them "My people" and "the sons of the living God". In its context, the prophecy never referred to the many Gentile nations - and yet Paul and Peter apply it to the Gentile church.

Sorry. Now I understand. I was going to ask you for that thread and that link but .. no point in reading something that I know will leave me with a heavy heart. I've heard too much false doctrine/s about dreams, visions etc and had enough. Yes. I think that is already happening. It's not, "they will not know'" it's already, "they don't know". And they don't care what you say. I know lots of 'prophets' and I've heard so many of their 'visions'. People I know well. Relatives. It's sickening. They don't care what you say, just as the Israelites preferred the words of their false prophets. It's a losing battle fighting them one on one, but it's good you post what you post here, so anyone who reads can see and hopefully have their eyes opened. It's hard. My heart goes out to you. I recognize a lover of Biblical truth when I see one (it's really refreshing). I will pray for you during the course of tomorrow and before I turn in tonight, for the comfort and upliftment of the Holy Spirit. You have a great weekend there in North America. Remember that Jesus came to give you a chance to live life abundantly too. Not just seriousness all the time, but fun and laughter, and a lot of it, because you need it in your world, no matter where you are. The time will come when the two witnesses will propesy "clothed in sackloth", and then no-one will be laughing, except those who have gone up and up and are watching tghe suffering of others with glee.

the only time I was ever pre-trib was when I was a kid in sunday school and believed whatever they told me... God did better...he delivered them IN the furnace and not even their clothes were touched...which, I believe was the entire point of God allowing them to be thrown in in the 1st place Very good observation, sevenseas. Never thought 'bout that. I think we kind of strayed far away from the OP though (largely my fault). I found myself agreeing with just about everything bornagain2011 said there. I don't know what stance bornagain2011 has on saints being able to prophesy etc, but at least most of what she said there made sense to me. I don't agree with this reply to bornagain2011's OP though: That whole "manchild" doctrine is full of decption, and it's being (and has been) popularized a lot. I can't even remember where it started or where I've seen it (years ago). But I remember it - it's awful stuff and basically asserts Christians are collectively Chrst (instead of Christ-like). It's dangerous and blasphemous, IMO.

Have fun, nice to make attempted comparisons but much you don't include, perhaps you just do not know. There is tribulation taking place right now all around , more and more as time goes by Christians are persecuted more severely with many being killed for their faith, as scripture says it clearly 'we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed , sleep in that context refers to death, not all will die , but all will be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye...believe whatever you choose , but have respect for those who you don't agree with Lol. I see the thought police are out tonight You stay on your roll, and I'll stay on mine, but what has been preordained by God will roll out all of its own accord. You and me, we are really not that clever. I'd say pre-tribulationists are all self-indoctrinated by their own weird and whacky interpretations of scripture, and I smile at how you try and force square pegs into round holes. But I'm not that clever. Maybe you're cleverer than me? (but actually you and me, we're not that clever, and no matter what roll we're on, what has been preordained by God will roll out all of its own accord). Greetings. Hope you enjoyed your Easter. I'd send you a hot cross bun if I could get it into my router.

That's the way I see it. I'm not saying it's "def. not" all the saints, but of all the Israelites in Egypt, only 2 were given the power of the waters, to turn them to blood - Moses and Aaron. They were also the only 2 chosen to be God's witnesses to Pharoah. Have you considered that Ephraim was a man who became a tribe whose name was ascribed to the whole Northern Kingdom and even beyond? Moses could very well represent the law while Aaron the prophets, as it is written, And Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. In the transfiguration Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus bearing him witness. The law and the prophets. Judah is my lawgiver says the Lord. Blessed are you when you are persecuted like the prophets who came before you says Jesus unto his disciples at the Mount. Why can it not be those who are of the law as one witness and those who prophesy by the spirit as the second witness? If we consider the singularity of the words used to be our problem then shouldn't we consider that bride is singular in number though we be many? I confess, I do not have this all figured out. I do not bring 'a word' from God. Only questions that cause me to pause and reflect. Peace in Christ. I have mediated in my heart over that also in the past, and haven't ditched the possibility, or the possibility that the 2 witnesses are 2 individuals: (Isa 43:10) Ye are My witnesses, saith the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me there was no God formed, neither shall any be after Me. (Isa 43:11) I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no saviour. (Isa 43:12) I have declared, and I have saved, and I have announced, and there was no strange god among you; therefore ye are My witnesses, saith the LORD, and I am God. Yes, there's Israel (Ephraim) and Judah. Ephraim was exiled to the nations, and has never returned, yet God promised Israel (Ephraim) that they would be returned to the land together with the house of Judah, and the two sticks would become one stick in the hand of Ephraim: (Eze 37:19) say into them: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his companions; and I will put them unto him together with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in My hand. The prophecies surrounding the restoration of Ephraim were quoted by Peter and Paul in reference to the Gentiles: (Rom 9:24) whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the nations? (Rom 9:25) As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved." (Rom 9:26) And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people; there they shall be called sons of the living God." That prophecy quoted by Paul in its O.T context referred to Ephraim - the Northern tribes. So I don't ditch what you are saying, nor do I ditch the fact that of all the Israelites in Ehypt, only 2 were given power over the waters, to turn them to blood, and they were also the 2 chosen to be God's witnesses to Pharaoh.

That's the way I see it. I'm not saying it's "def. not" all the saints, but of all the Israelites in Egypt, only 2 were given the power of the waters, to turn them to blood - Moses and Aaron. They were also the only 2 chosen to be God's witnesses to Pharoah. I don't think that's fair, sevenseas. Born again is a growing saint , and the OP has a lot of very valid points , in my opinion. No one can claim to understand Revelation completely, and a lot of what a lot of people interpret, is conjecture. I fully agree with that. The revelation ends with a warning about adding to John's prophecy. It completes all prophecy and revelation until the return of Christ. Tut tut, so harsh. Be gentler, kinder. You're an elder (smiling). I couldn't agree more. Good for you! You have my support 100%! Problem is I'm unlikely to stick around. I get totally discouraged and disheartened by any sort of Christian forums/discussions. Far too much nonsense going on in them. Very, very true. Not much Biblical truth being taught anywhere any more. Decption is indeed growing by the day in the church. We are the church of Thyatira, following Jezebels, and every other Revelation church, having become rich.. yet there are those who remain faithful among us, and who have not lost their first love, but those are the ones living in China and Islamic countries, mainly. Few are found outside those areas. The 7 churches culminate in the end of days church and the return of the Lord.

In Daniel 3 the King of Babylon erected an image to himself ('the image of the beast') and commanded all nations, tribes and tongues to worship it. Shadrach, Meshach and Abenego ('the faithful remnant') refused and were cast into the burning, fiery furnace (the great tribulation). We can stand on our heads and whistle pre-tribulation through our noses if we like, but God did not deliver Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego from the burning fiery furance (the great tribulation) before they were even cast into it. The king of Babylon was so enraged with them that he increased the heat of the burning, firey furnace 7-fold (7 = completion - their tribulation was at its worst, it could not be intensified any more than what it had been). (Mat 24:21) for then shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be. (Mat 24:22) And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened. Then the king called them, telling them to come out, seeing that they had not been destroyed (the '2 witnesses' are told to "come up here" in Rev 11 after the beast and his armies has killed them). Of all the Israelites in Egypt, only 2 were given power over the waters, to turn them to blood - Moses and Aaron. They were the only 2 of all the Israelites chosen to be God's witnesses to Pharaoh. And all the while, Pharaoh was increasing the tribulation of the saints in Egypt. We can stand on our heads and whistle pre-tribulation through our noses if we like, but although God kept His people from being harmed by the plagues, He did not deliver them from their tribulation before Pharaoh had brought it upon them. And we can stand on our heads and whistle pre-tribulation through our noses if we like, but it was Jesus Himself who used the words "great tribulation" when He said that this gospel of the kingdom shall first be preached as a witness in all the world, and (Mat 24:9) "Then they will deliver you up to be afflicted and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake" (then He warns of false prophets coming around that time etc) and then He says, (Mat 24:15) Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand). (He tells those in Judea to flee because) (Mat 24:21) for then shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be. (Mat 24:22) And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened. And we can stand on our heads and whistle pre-tribulation through our noses as much as we like, but Jesus Himself said that the sun would be darkened etc imediately after that period of great tribulation. And of all the N.T references to tribulation, distress etc, only 2 verses are not in the context of the tribulation of the saints of the hand of the world, once in Romans where Paul says, (Rom 2:9) tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man who has worked out evil; of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. and once where Paul says, (2Th 1:6) since it is a righteous thing with God to repay tribulation to those who trouble you, (2Th 1:7) and to give rest with us to you who are troubled, at the revealing of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with the angels of His power, All the other references in the N.T to tribulation, distress, affliction etc are references to the trib of saints. And we can stand on oour heads and whistle pre-tribulation through our noses if we like, but the Olivet discourse is the first of only three references to 'great tribulation'. The second is also by Jesus in Rev 2, where He warns the Thyatira church about following the false doctrines of false prophets (He had warned about false prophets in the Olivet Discourse also), and there Jesus states clearly that He Himself will cast the church into great tribulation if they do not heed His warnings. And we can stand on oour heads and whistle pre-tribulation through our noses if we like, but the third and last reference to great tribulation in the N.T is where John speaks about the multitude of saints in heaven who had come out from the great tribulation. We can stand on our heads and whistle pre-tribulation through our noses if we like, but neither the N.T nor the Old ever calls God's wrath/judgement of the world 'the great tribulation'. It is only pre-tribulationists who do that. We can stand on our heads and whistle pre-tribulation through our noses if we like, but God is not going to deliver His faithful remnant from the burning, fiery furnace (the great tribulation) before we have even been cast into it. Unfortunately. How nice it would be if it were different. But there is a cost to following Jesus, and just as the cost of following YHWH was great to the Israelites (and became the greatest just before their redemption and the judgment of their persecutors), so the cost to us is going to be increased 7-fold, becoming greater and greater, and be at it's greatest immediately before the resurrection/rapture of the saints.

(Exo 7:19) And Jehovah spoke to Moses, Say to Aaron, Take your rod, and stretch out your hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their canals, and upon their pools, and upon every reservoir of their waters, that they may become blood. And blood shall be throughout all the land of Egypt, both in wooden and in stone vessels. Moses the prophet and law-giver, and Aaron the high priest. The saints were brought into tribulation by Pharaoh and the deliverance of the redeemed was also the judgement of the beast (Pharaoh) and his armies. I agree with you about the 7th trumpet, 7th seal, etc, because the 7th trumpet and 7th plague/bowl of wrath and 7th seal = 777, which always signifies God's judgement of the world, just as Noah's father, Lamech, was 777 years old when he died, and 7 priests led the Israelite army around Jericho blowing 7 trumpets for seven days, and the walls of Jericho fell on 7th day, the 7th time the priests led the Israelite army around the walls, at the blowing of the 7th trumpet. The 6th seal and 6th trumpet and 6th bowl of wrath = 666 and has to do with the war of the beast from the bottomless pit against the the Lamb and His 2 witnesses, from what I can see. Yes, Pharaoh and his armies brought the saints into great tribulation, and yes, God's witnesses were given power to bring plagues upon Egypt; and yes, God's judgement came upon Pharaoh and his armies, and the deliverance of the redeemed became the judgement of Pharaoh and his armies, and vice versa. If you take the Biblical precedent, the 'two witnesses' do indeed bring the plagues upon the world, and the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl of wrath (777) = the judgement of the beast and his armies and the deliverance of the redeemed. The saints in Egypt got away without being harmed by the plagues brought upon Egypt, but they did not get away without being harmed by the great tribulation Pharaoh and his armies had inflicted upon them. Neither the New Testament nor the Old has ever called God's judgement of the beast and his armies 'the great tribulation'. It is only pre-tribulationists who do so.