fruitfull77

You must be resurrected, born of the spirit. Flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of God

 

Most of this discussion, to use the term loosely, is focused about Christmas, December 25th, being the time we should be celebrating the birth of Christ.

but looking into it further we can see that it was not even close.

Clement picked November 18.

If we use bible scripture instead of historians who seem to have no credibility, let's consider the following:

 

An analysis of scripture  shows that Dec 25 is the most unlikely date,

First we know shepherds were in the fields watching their flocks at the time of Jesus birth- Luke 2:7-8

Shepherds would not be in the fields during December.

December is usually cold and rainy (possible snow even)

It would be more likely shepherds would have shelters for their flocks at night. There are many sources for this view which makes more sense that the weather would not have  permitted shepherds watching over their flocks in the fields at night.

 

Next we could look at the fact that Jesus's parents came to Bethlehem to register in a Roman census- Luke 2:1-4.

It is highly unlikely that such a general census would be taken in the winter.when temperatures often dropped below freezing and roads would be in poor shape.

Taking a census under such conditions would have been self-defeating especially those with child and the elderly.

 

The Bible points to late September as the most likely time of Jesus' birth based on the conception and birth of John the Baptist.

Since Elizabeth -John's mother-was in her sixth month of pregnancy when Jesus was conceived -Luke 1:24-26 we can determine the approximate time of year Jesus was born.

It was learned that Elizabeth would have a child-John's conception would have been  near the end of June of that year-The companion Bible calculated the conception time from the Abijah service at the temple by Zacharias -Luke 1:5  after learning John's birth would be sometime in late  March of the following year.we add another six months after John's birth (the difference in ages between john and Jesus) brings us to the end of September as the likely time of Jesus' birth.

 

Aren't we lucky- we can now take Jesus out of the christmas December 25 scene. 

we can leave that date with pagans where it belongs.

 

what do you think about them apples?

 

The bible does not point to late September for Jesus birth. That is an error which has been propogated by certain teachers who apparently have a vested interest in a fall birth. Basing Jesus birth on the timing of the course of Abijah is a nice attempt, but the full understanding of these courses does not lead to that conclusion.

 

The Priests were divided into 24 groups, and each group served one week at a time. Abijah is the 8th group. Since there are 24 groups, obviously they must serve twice a year. Those who try to state with certainty ignore the twice a year service. Also the Hebrew calendar does not match the modern calendar. The Hebrew year starts on the first day of the month of Nissan. That is approximately March-April. Eight weeks later would be the end of the month of Iyyar which is approximately  April-May. Of course this fluctuates based on whether there is a leap month. (The calendar adjusts for drift, not with a leap day but with a leap month). Plus, for High Holidays, there is no separate course, but rather more priests are needed so some of all differing courses serve in the Temple. This March-April timing is what is set forth by those who wish Jesus was born in September, (and by now it should be understood that the fluctuations of the Hebrew calendar do not allow for anyone to claim September).

 

That second course in a year for Abiyah is in the fall in the month of Marheshvan which can be from  October to November. Ok, let's do this calculation. If Elizabeth became pregnant at the end of October, or beginning of November, that would put the birth of John sometime around June or July. Add 6 months to June, and you have around the December timeframe. Oh my!!!!! The reality is, we can not know the exact time of Jesus birth based on the courses of the priesthood, as there are too many variables, but one this is sure, the courses do not eliminate December. They do not confirm December, but for those trying to prove otherwise, they do not eliminate December.

 

I have written on the weather in the area of Bethlehem before. Many people assume for some reason that the sheep would not be out grazing in December, but they try to make an assumption which is not based on the actual weather in the Bethlehem area. Bethlehem is more of a mild meditaranean climate in temperature but is also in the desert. That means in December, the temperatures average around 50 or 60 degrees.

 

http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=12

 

Throughout the month of December daytime temperatures will generally reach highs of around 14°C that's about 58°F. At night the average minimum temperature drops down to around 7°C, that's 44°F.

In recent times the highest recorded temperature in December has been 29°C that's 83°F, with the lowest recorded temperature -1°C, about 30°F.

 

So, we can say that Bethlehem is not so cold that the shepherds would not be out grazing the sheep. The other factor is that the Bethlehem area is arrid, desert like. There is only grass on the hills after rainy seasons. The rest of the time, the plants would be brown and not growing. For sheep to be grazing, it must be right after the rainy season and not after an extended dry time.

 

From the previous site for December:

 

Precipitation

The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 71 mm, that's 3 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 11 days of the month, with snow falling on 1 days.

  

Now let's look at the rain around Bethlehem in September:

 

http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=9

 

Precipitation

The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 0 mm, that's 0 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 0 days of the month.

       

How about August:

 

http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=8

 

Precipitation

The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 0 mm, that's 0 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 0 days of the month.

 

One more month back to find rain to have grass to graze on in September so here is July in Bethlehem:

 

http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=7

 

Precipitation

The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 10 mm, that's 0 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 0 days of the month.

 

So, we can conclude that the shepherds would definitely NOT be out with the sheep in August, September or October, as there is nothing to graze on. The rainy season starts around November and ends around the April. In December, in the hills around Bethlehem, everything is in full bloom. From May - October, there is no rain, or only trace amounts (0 to less then an inch per month) so everything is dryed out and brown.

 

I like to get back to you on 2 issues, but you did not comment on the calling of the people by the Roman authorities to report to their cities for taxation from agricultural harvests and September with it's perfect weather conditions and fruitful bounty would be the ideal time for this undertaking and December would not because of the travel involved.

Most of this discussion, to use the term loosely, is focused about Christmas, December 25th, being the time we should be celebrating the birth of Christ.

but looking into it further we can see that it was not even close.

Clement picked November 18.

If we use bible scripture instead of historians who seem to have no credibility, let's consider the following:

An analysis of scripture  shows that Dec 25 is the most unlikely date,

First we know shepherds were in the fields watching their flocks at the time of Jesus birth- Luke 2:7-8

Shepherds would not be in the fields during December.

December is usually cold and rainy (possible snow even)

It would be more likely shepherds would have shelters for their flocks at night. There are many sources for this view which makes more sense that the weather would not have  permitted shepherds watching over their flocks in the fields at night.

Next we could look at the fact that Jesus's parents came to Bethlehem to register in a Roman census- Luke 2:1-4.

It is highly unlikely that such a general census would be taken in the winter.when temperatures often dropped below freezing and roads would be in poor shape.

Taking a census under such conditions would have been self-defeating especially those with child and the elderly.

The Bible points to late September as the most likely time of Jesus' birth based on the conception and birth of John the Baptist.

Since Elizabeth -John's mother-was in her sixth month of pregnancy when Jesus was conceived -Luke 1:24-26 we can determine the approximate time of year Jesus was born.

It was learned that Elizabeth would have a child-John's conception would have been  near the end of June of that year-The companion Bible calculated the conception time from the Abijah service at the temple by Zacharias -Luke 1:5  after learning John's birth would be sometime in late  March of the following year.we add another six months after John's birth (the difference in ages between john and Jesus) brings us to the end of September as the likely time of Jesus' birth.

Aren't we lucky- we can now take Jesus out of the christmas December 25 scene. 

we can leave that date with pagans where it belongs.

what do you think about them apples?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Would you say  Jeremiah 10: 1-4 is describing anything close to our christmas tree of today-this was written back in the late 500's BC

 

No.  It is describing the process of carving an Idol from wood, plating it in silver and/or gold and adorning it with jewelry and regal garments.  That is what pagans did with their idols. 

 

There are NO indications of Christmas trees in the middle east.   You need to learn about the pagan cultures and how they worshipped their gods.  You will find that all these claims about our Christmas traditions going back to the babylonians to be false.  People read something in someone's book and they just believe it.   Most of our Christmas traditions came out of Europe during the Reformation period.

 

Jer 10:1-4 -is a warning from God not to follow the practices of heathens.-the example referred to is in verse 3,4

a tree is cut here and decorated or deck and secured-no carving mentioned .

It doesn't have to. The word for "tree" and "wood" are the same word in Hebrew.  Idols were made from wood and carved into the shape of a given god.  Trees were not worshipped in the ancient near east.  You evidently don't understand the culture of idolatry of the ancient near east.  

 

It is not talking about the custom of decorating a tree.  You are violating historical propriety.  You are taking a modern custom and penciling it into the Bible.   Your history is slopply and incompetent.   No one who knows anything about history will teach that people in the ancient near east teaches that they worship trees in that part of the world.

The evergreen tree and boughs were the most common

In the OT they were tempted to follow that particular tradition but God forbids it.

 

Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about.  You are just parroting what you read in someone's book and you obviously didn't fact check what you read.  These false teachers bank on people like you who will believe them with checking to see if their claims are true.  You are so gullible and you are wrong.

 

 

Where do you think the people of Europe derived their traditions from regarding this subject matter? And would they not be man-made?

 

They didin't get it from the ancient near east because modern Christmas traditions didn't come from that part of the world.  

 

 

The OT and the NT condemns laying aside God's ways He wants to be worshiped in favor of keeping our own idea of how we want to honor Him.

 

God's festivals in the OT were for Israel, not for the world.  God's dietary commandments were for Israel, not the world. 

 

Why the warning from God then if this is not a pagan practice?

 

it doesn't say anything about the Christmas tree.  It is talking about people who cut down trees and make idols out of them.  They shape the idol into their god and then overlay it with gold and silver.  You are trying to read "Christmas tree" into that passage.   The pagans in that part of the world didn't worship trees.  They worshipped idols they carved from those trees.

 

The Hebrew word  ets  is used which means tree.

 

It is also the word for wood.

Dec 25th goes back to the days of Nimrod and Tammuz-Dec25 is associated with most sun gods.

Dec 25 was regarded as the birthday of the mystery God Mithra, the son of righteousness

 

According to a lot of junk historians and conspiracy theorists.   They also say that the death burial and resurrection of Jesus are just rehashing the stories of Mithra and Horus and other gods as well.  They are wrong about that, too.

 

 

The modern xmas tree originated in Germany but they got it from the Romans who got it from the Babylonians and Egypt-would that be close enough to the Near east, throw in India as well.

 

Baloney.  No basis in reality.

 

 

 

Babylonian and Egyptian tree worship is a pagan tradition.

 

More baseless garbage that as no root in real history or real mythology.   You'll just believe anything, won't you.  I've got some ocean property in Kansas I'll sell you dirt cheap.

 

 

I didn't see your answer where you think the modern xmas tree came from? could you supply that?

 

It came from post reformation Europe, many historians agree that it started in Europe. 

 

Encyclopedias -like Britannica and others use accredited historians and many contributors that are professors of modern and ancient history at renowned universities.

Your sarcasm seems to be the only defense you are left with. What documented historical sources are you relying on? Because there are a lot of resources that beg to differ

with your objections to the truth. If you don't believe antiquities at least believe God.

If you are a Christian and follow the One who said  " I am the light of the world " why would you believe the perpetuation of strange customs not from the Bible but from the dark, dim mists of mythology which is primarily driven by satan?

 

 

I don't agree with fruitful in the position he is taking in this discussion.  I don't believe that the scripture he is referencing is talking about a Christmas tree, and I don't believe Christians have to keep all the feast days.  That being said, Romans makes it clear that Fruitful or anyone else is accepted of God keeping those feast days and believing we must keep them.  Every time someone takes the position that they believe something is wrong, it seems that just believing that angers people that don't agree and they start the attacks based on law and grace.  If one believes that the church must keep certain festivals and observe certain days, they do so as unto the Lord.  If someone else believes this is not necessary, they don't observe them as unto the Lord.  Obviously, I am replying to His Disciple 3, not Shiloh357. 

 

I have seen that scripture brought up before concerning Christmas trees.  I can honestly see how someone can make the connection, but lets make one thing clear.  I have never personally met anyone that worshipped a Christmas tree.  They remind us of the season and are nice to look at, and that is it.  I don't believe a Christmas tree would be an idol for the vast majority of people.  The only reason I don't say everyone is there is always some nut that will worship anything.  There was a church where the people worshipped a dead rock and roll singer, so I am not going to rule out anything, but I don't know anyone personally that sees a Christmas tree as a deity deserving worship.  I also find it unlikely that the idol described in the OT was anything like a Christmas tree, even though it may sound like a Christmas tree when you just casually read the passage. 

I have a big plant and small tree in my living-there is nothing wrong with one. But when you bring an evergreen tree in and decorate it on Dec 25 or thereabouts you are following a pagan tradition, even tho there is no worshiping on your part.  that is the gist of it. you get to decide whether that applies to us today.

 

How about when I set up a plastic tree and decorate it in November? 

 

Even tho it sounds like you are mocking God's warnings it would only  apply when you are doing the event surrounding the time frame around a recognized pagan holiday

I don't agree with fruitful in the position he is taking in this discussion.  I don't believe that the scripture he is referencing is talking about a Christmas tree, and I don't believe Christians have to keep all the feast days.  That being said, Romans makes it clear that Fruitful or anyone else is accepted of God keeping those feast days and believing we must keep them.  Every time someone takes the position that they believe something is wrong, it seems that just believing that angers people that don't agree and they start the attacks based on law and grace.  If one believes that the church must keep certain festivals and observe certain days, they do so as unto the Lord.  If someone else believes this is not necessary, they don't observe them as unto the Lord.  Obviously, I am replying to His Disciple 3, not Shiloh357. 

 

I have seen that scripture brought up before concerning Christmas trees.  I can honestly see how someone can make the connection, but lets make one thing clear.  I have never personally met anyone that worshipped a Christmas tree.  They remind us of the season and are nice to look at, and that is it.  I don't believe a Christmas tree would be an idol for the vast majority of people.  The only reason I don't say everyone is there is always some nut that will worship anything.  There was a church where the people worshipped a dead rock and roll singer, so I am not going to rule out anything, but I don't know anyone personally that sees a Christmas tree as a deity deserving worship.  I also find it unlikely that the idol described in the OT was anything like a Christmas tree, even though it may sound like a Christmas tree when you just casually read the passage. 

I have a big plant and small tree in my living-there is nothing wrong with one. But when you bring an evergreen tree in and decorate it on Dec 25 or thereabouts you are following a pagan tradition, even tho there is no worshiping on your part.  that is the gist of it. you get to decide whether that applies to us today.

 

 

 

 

Would you say  Jeremiah 10: 1-4 is describing anything close to our christmas tree of today-this was written back in the late 500's BC

 

No.  It is describing the process of carving an Idol from wood, plating it in silver and/or gold and adorning it with jewelry and regal garments.  That is what pagans did with their idols. 

 

There are NO indications of Christmas trees in the middle east.   You need to learn about the pagan cultures and how they worshipped their gods.  You will find that all these claims about our Christmas traditions going back to the babylonians to be false.  People read something in someone's book and they just believe it.   Most of our Christmas traditions came out of Europe during the Reformation period.

 

Jer 10:1-4 -is a warning from God not to follow the practices of heathens.-the example referred to is in verse 3,4

a tree is cut here and decorated or deck and secured-no carving mentioned .

It doesn't have to. The word for "tree" and "wood" are the same word in Hebrew.  Idols were made from wood and carved into the shape of a given god.  Trees were not worshipped in the ancient near east.  You evidently don't understand the culture of idolatry of the ancient near east.  

 

It is not talking about the custom of decorating a tree.  You are violating historical propriety.  You are taking a modern custom and penciling it into the Bible.   Your history is slopply and incompetent.   No one who knows anything about history will teach that people in the ancient near east teaches that they worship trees in that part of the world.

The evergreen tree and boughs were the most common

In the OT they were tempted to follow that particular tradition but God forbids it.

 

Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about.  You are just parroting what you read in someone's book and you obviously didn't fact check what you read.  These false teachers bank on people like you who will believe them with checking to see if their claims are true.  You are so gullible and you are wrong.

 

 

Where do you think the people of Europe derived their traditions from regarding this subject matter? And would they not be man-made?

 

They didin't get it from the ancient near east because modern Christmas traditions didn't come from that part of the world.  

 

 

The OT and the NT condemns laying aside God's ways He wants to be worshiped in favor of keeping our own idea of how we want to honor Him.

 

God's festivals in the OT were for Israel, not for the world.  God's dietary commandments were for Israel, not the world. 

 

Why the warning from God then if this is not a pagan practice?

The Hebrew word  ets  is used which means tree.

Dec 25th goes back to the days of Nimrod and Tammuz-Dec25 is associated with most sun gods.

Dec 25 was regarded as the birthday of the mystery God Mithra, the son of righteousness

The modern xmas tree originated in Germany but they got it from the Romans who got it from the Babylonians and Egypt-would that be close enough to the Near east, throw in India as well.

Babylonian and Egyptian tree worship is a pagan tradition.

I didn't see your answer where you think the modern xmas tree came from? could you supply that?

 

 

Would you say  Jeremiah 10: 1-4 is describing anything close to our christmas tree of today-this was written back in the late 500's BC

 

No.  It is describing the process of carving an Idol from wood, plating it in silver and/or gold and adorning it with jewelry and regal garments.  That is what pagans did with their idols. 

 

There are NO indications of Christmas trees in the middle east.   You need to learn about the pagan cultures and how they worshipped their gods.  You will find that all these claims about our Christmas traditions going back to the babylonians to be false.  People read something in someone's book and they just believe it.   Most of our Christmas traditions came out of Europe during the Reformation period.

 

Jer 10:1-4 -is a warning from God not to follow the practices of heathens.-the example referred to is in verse 3,4

a tree is cut here and decorated or deck and secured-no carving mentioned .

The evergreen tree and boughs were the most common

In the OT they were tempted to follow that particular tradition but God forbids it.

although they have good intentions as we do today to honor God it is the type of application of worship he denounces.

Where do you think the people of Europe derived their traditions from regarding this subject matter?

And would they not be man-made?

The OT and the NT condemns laying aside God's ways He wants to be worshiped in favor of keeping our own idea of how we want to honor Him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe in the eyes of God,there is only one church,that is church of Jesus Christ,i may be right or wrong,iam open to correction,A preacher said that because of church doctrine and tradition of men,many christian will go to hell fire,do you guys agree with him,some christian doesn't celebrate christmas,they said Jesus was not born on 25th, and beside it is not biblical,and Christ did not ask us to celebrate His birth,I want to ask is it a must that every christian must celebrate christmas,is celebrating christmas biblical or tradition of men.some church said that it is not good for a christian to drink alcohol,why some encourage it,because the first miracle Jesus perform on earth,was turning water to wine.what do you think.

Hi Jerry,

 

I don't celebrate Christmas because it's not a Christian holiday. The Church swallowed up the pagan holiday of the Saturnalia. There were pagan celebrations that centered around Dec. 25 and the winter solstice the shortest day of the year. They saw this as a renewing as the days began to get longer. As more and more pagans turned to Christianity the church incorporated their holiday. Also, Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25. I believe He was born on Sept 12 3BC. 

 

The reason I don't celebrate Christmas is twofold, one, it's not from Scripture, and two In Deuteronomy God specifically told the Jews that they were not to worship Him the way the pagans worshiped their gods.  If you look at Christmas and the celebrations they are they way the pagans worshiped their gods. The pagans used trees, wreaths, lights, etc and all of these are found in Christmas celebrations.

 

Actually there is no archeological evidence of ancients employing modern Christmas traditions.  A lot of that is made up history revisionism.   Most modern Christmas traditions sprung up after the Reformation in Europe, not in ancient times. 

 

It's really no different than those who claim that the story of Jesus' life is actually a retelling of the story of the birth, life and death/resurrection of Horus or some other pagan god.  I have found a lot of really revisionist history and outright lies in people's attempts to tag Christianity as a pagan religion.

 

Before xmas was the Roman saturnalia 200 AD circa and before that was something earlier and so on.

Most of our xmas customs evolved from ancient pagan practices.-

even the prophets warned the jews to avoid  the Babylonian practices where a lot of our current customs evolved. Jer; 3;13,  circa 500-600 BC

 

that is complete nonsense.   Most of Christmas tradition orginated in Christian Europe, not in Babylon.

 

You need to look a little deeper. santa clause/jolly old nick some of those things evolved during Christian Europe but the Dec 25 birthday is about as pagan as you can get.

There are multitudes of history books and encyclopedias that explore the ancient past of xmas customs.

Tree decorating, exchanging gifts, caroling, ornaments, virgin birth, nativity scene, etc.are pagan practices going back thousands of years back before Christ.

take a look at Hislops " The Two Babylons " or the encyclopedia of religion and ethics.There are too many resources to mention.

Christmas contradicts biblical facts.

Xmas is rooted in ancient customs and religious practices that has nothing to do with Christianity and the Bible.

 

Easter, which is approaching soon, is another example of traditions that are not of Christian origin

 

Rather than follow ancient or modern mythological practices God shows us a better way of life with His sacred Holy feast days.

 

The choices you make will affect your destiny.

 

the problem is that there is no real archeology or ancient historians who mention those things.  We don't have anyone like Pliny or Tacitus, or any of the early church fathers, or anyone living in ancient times that even attests to those things.

 

I have discovered that a person needs to actually study ancient mythology to get a handle on what their customs really are.  There were no "Christmas" trees in ancient times.   Hislop's book has been discredited multiple times.   I'm sorry, but your arguments are not historicaly accurate.

 

Would you say  Jeremiah 10: 1-4 is describing anything close to our christmas tree of today-this was written back in the late 500's BC

 

 

 

 

We are not worshipping holidays, so what you said Fruitful is not clear at all.  There is nothing in scripture that forbids us from celebrating birthdays, Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, Groundhog Day, or the other holidays that come up each year.  I got out my concordance, and looked up every scripture where the word tradition and traditions was used, and none of them have anything to do with celebrating Christmas.  It is possible for someone to celebrate all of the man-made holidays as well as God's holy days.  In addition to that, One Light is correctly applying that passage from Romans 14.  We are not required to keep the feast days. 

You have to go deeper than a concordance to find the origins of birthdays and easter, and the likes of christmas. You have to to look into ancient history, encyclopedias, bible hand books, and the Babylonian practices. we can easily lose sight  of the special meanings of God's holy days when we vary or alter  the dates and times God instituted for us to observe. these days were meant.to be kept forever and ever, they were not temporary or part of Moses law.

God said in Deut 12;32-do not add to what I command you to observe.

Your duty is to " prove all things "-the problem with many of those man made holidays is they correspond  with many pagan practices.

We are to follow God's examples.not our personal reasoning. 

Christmas and easter were not celebrated in the bible  although the OT refers to pagan customs that were adopted to those traditions we now keep with christ as the central figure.

Jesus, and the apostles kept God's feast day years after the birth of the NTChurch-it wasn;t until hundreds of years later false teaches started to amalgamate local customs with God's festivals until they were nothing like the original Holy days God ordained.

what do you have to lose when you celebrate God's Holydays? Other than eternal life.

why the adversity to it all?

 

One of the problems here is that I don't trust extra Biblical books about church history or pagan practices.  As Shiloh said, there has been a lot of revisionism.  You can find things that both agree with you and disagree with you.  I have no problem with anyone keeping all the feast days if they desire to.  I just have no problem with celebrating Christmas and Easter.  We don't worship idols because we reflect on the birth of Jesus and the resurrection of Jesus on a given day. 

 

Can you explain what you mean when you say: 

"what do you have to lose when you celebrate God's Holydays?  Other than eternal live."  Why would you lose eternal life if you celebrate God's holy days, and if you would lose eternal life, why would you celebrate them? 

 

That was phrased wrongly. I should have said " what do you have to lose when you fail to celebrate God's Holydays " -my mistake.

 

That makes a lot more sense.  So you believe that we must keep God's holydays or we risk losing our salvation?  Based on that, can you give me a list of the holydays you believe we must keep? 

 

Well based on the Bible, besides the weekly Sabbath, God gave us annual festivals- Lev 23

The Passover

Feast of Unleavened Bread

The Feast of Pentecost

The Feast of Trumpets

The Day of Atonement

The Feast of Tabernacles

The Last Great Day

These are the ones God commanded us to keep

These are the ones that I follow now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe in the eyes of God,there is only one church,that is church of Jesus Christ,i may be right or wrong,iam open to correction,A preacher said that because of church doctrine and tradition of men,many christian will go to hell fire,do you guys agree with him,some christian doesn't celebrate christmas,they said Jesus was not born on 25th, and beside it is not biblical,and Christ did not ask us to celebrate His birth,I want to ask is it a must that every christian must celebrate christmas,is celebrating christmas biblical or tradition of men.some church said that it is not good for a christian to drink alcohol,why some encourage it,because the first miracle Jesus perform on earth,was turning water to wine.what do you think.

Hi Jerry,

 

I don't celebrate Christmas because it's not a Christian holiday. The Church swallowed up the pagan holiday of the Saturnalia. There were pagan celebrations that centered around Dec. 25 and the winter solstice the shortest day of the year. They saw this as a renewing as the days began to get longer. As more and more pagans turned to Christianity the church incorporated their holiday. Also, Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25. I believe He was born on Sept 12 3BC. 

 

The reason I don't celebrate Christmas is twofold, one, it's not from Scripture, and two In Deuteronomy God specifically told the Jews that they were not to worship Him the way the pagans worshiped their gods.  If you look at Christmas and the celebrations they are they way the pagans worshiped their gods. The pagans used trees, wreaths, lights, etc and all of these are found in Christmas celebrations.

 

Actually there is no archeological evidence of ancients employing modern Christmas traditions.  A lot of that is made up history revisionism.   Most modern Christmas traditions sprung up after the Reformation in Europe, not in ancient times. 

 

It's really no different than those who claim that the story of Jesus' life is actually a retelling of the story of the birth, life and death/resurrection of Horus or some other pagan god.  I have found a lot of really revisionist history and outright lies in people's attempts to tag Christianity as a pagan religion.

 

Before xmas was the Roman saturnalia 200 AD circa and before that was something earlier and so on.

Most of our xmas customs evolved from ancient pagan practices.-

even the prophets warned the jews to avoid  the Babylonian practices where a lot of our current customs evolved. Jer; 3;13,  circa 500-600 BC

 

that is complete nonsense.   Most of Christmas tradition orginated in Christian Europe, not in Babylon.

 

You need to look a little deeper. santa clause/jolly old nick some of those things evolved during Christian Europe but the Dec 25 birthday is about as pagan as you can get.

There are multitudes of history books and encyclopedias that explore the ancient past of xmas customs.

Tree decorating, exchanging gifts, caroling, ornaments, virgin birth, nativity scene, etc.are pagan practices going back thousands of years back before Christ.

take a look at Hislops " The Two Babylons " or the encyclopedia of religion and ethics.There are too many resources to mention.

Christmas contradicts biblical facts.

Xmas is rooted in ancient customs and religious practices that has nothing to do with Christianity and the Bible.

 

Easter, which is approaching soon, is another example of traditions that are not of Christian origin

 

Rather than follow ancient or modern mythological practices God shows us a better way of life with His sacred Holy feast days.

 

The choices you make will affect your destiny.

 

the problem is that there is no real archeology or ancient historians who mention those things.  We don't have anyone like Pliny or Tacitus, or any of the early church fathers, or anyone living in ancient times that even attests to those things.

 

I have discovered that a person needs to actually study ancient mythology to get a handle on what their customs really are.  There were no "Christmas" trees in ancient times.   Hislop's book has been discredited multiple times.   I'm sorry, but your arguments are not historicaly accurate.

 

We trust that encyclopedias like Britannica in their " Christianity " section are from professional historians and related documents.

There are numerous reference books that contain the same findings.

Research books from using history sources provide enough information to make you think about the veracity of a subject in the least.

There are so many hundreds of books on pagan origins in the libraries that confirm the xmas subject that it is simple enough to find the traditions that are associated with them.

do you think there is a conspiracy by authors to discredit or support xmas origins or are they just producing what they have discovered from their research?

We trust that the work done by authors is documented and backed up by historical references.

Some of these below I have extracted and posted relative to this matter:

William Walsh's -The story of Santa Klaus

William Samson, A Book of Christmas

The Christmas Almanac

Tom Flynn, The Trouble With Christmas

The Christian Calendar by L>W> Cowie

Micropaedia " Christmas"

The Early Church Fathers-Origen, Clement of Alexandria, Epiphanius

Robert Myers- Celebrations : The Complete Book of American Holidays

there is so much out there and that's not including the thousands of sources on the internet

somebody out there might just have something right.

what was discredited in Hislop's book? and by who?

 

 

We are not worshipping holidays, so what you said Fruitful is not clear at all.  There is nothing in scripture that forbids us from celebrating birthdays, Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, Groundhog Day, or the other holidays that come up each year.  I got out my concordance, and looked up every scripture where the word tradition and traditions was used, and none of them have anything to do with celebrating Christmas.  It is possible for someone to celebrate all of the man-made holidays as well as God's holy days.  In addition to that, One Light is correctly applying that passage from Romans 14.  We are not required to keep the feast days. 

You have to go deeper than a concordance to find the origins of birthdays and easter, and the likes of christmas. You have to to look into ancient history, encyclopedias, bible hand books, and the Babylonian practices. we can easily lose sight  of the special meanings of God's holy days when we vary or alter  the dates and times God instituted for us to observe. these days were meant.to be kept forever and ever, they were not temporary or part of Moses law.

God said in Deut 12;32-do not add to what I command you to observe.

Your duty is to " prove all things "-the problem with many of those man made holidays is they correspond  with many pagan practices.

We are to follow God's examples.not our personal reasoning. 

Christmas and easter were not celebrated in the bible  although the OT refers to pagan customs that were adopted to those traditions we now keep with christ as the central figure.

Jesus, and the apostles kept God's feast day years after the birth of the NTChurch-it wasn;t until hundreds of years later false teaches started to amalgamate local customs with God's festivals until they were nothing like the original Holy days God ordained.

what do you have to lose when you celebrate God's Holydays? Other than eternal life.

why the adversity to it all?

 

One of the problems here is that I don't trust extra Biblical books about church history or pagan practices.  As Shiloh said, there has been a lot of revisionism.  You can find things that both agree with you and disagree with you.  I have no problem with anyone keeping all the feast days if they desire to.  I just have no problem with celebrating Christmas and Easter.  We don't worship idols because we reflect on the birth of Jesus and the resurrection of Jesus on a given day. 

 

Can you explain what you mean when you say: 

"what do you have to lose when you celebrate God's Holydays?  Other than eternal live."  Why would you lose eternal life if you celebrate God's holy days, and if you would lose eternal life, why would you celebrate them? 

 

That was phrased wrongly. I should have said " what do you have to lose when you fail to celebrate God's Holydays " -my mistake.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe in the eyes of God,there is only one church,that is church of Jesus Christ,i may be right or wrong,iam open to correction,A preacher said that because of church doctrine and tradition of men,many christian will go to hell fire,do you guys agree with him,some christian doesn't celebrate christmas,they said Jesus was not born on 25th, and beside it is not biblical,and Christ did not ask us to celebrate His birth,I want to ask is it a must that every christian must celebrate christmas,is celebrating christmas biblical or tradition of men.some church said that it is not good for a christian to drink alcohol,why some encourage it,because the first miracle Jesus perform on earth,was turning water to wine.what do you think.

Hi Jerry,

 

I don't celebrate Christmas because it's not a Christian holiday. The Church swallowed up the pagan holiday of the Saturnalia. There were pagan celebrations that centered around Dec. 25 and the winter solstice the shortest day of the year. They saw this as a renewing as the days began to get longer. As more and more pagans turned to Christianity the church incorporated their holiday. Also, Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25. I believe He was born on Sept 12 3BC. 

 

The reason I don't celebrate Christmas is twofold, one, it's not from Scripture, and two In Deuteronomy God specifically told the Jews that they were not to worship Him the way the pagans worshiped their gods.  If you look at Christmas and the celebrations they are they way the pagans worshiped their gods. The pagans used trees, wreaths, lights, etc and all of these are found in Christmas celebrations.

 

Actually there is no archeological evidence of ancients employing modern Christmas traditions.  A lot of that is made up history revisionism.   Most modern Christmas traditions sprung up after the Reformation in Europe, not in ancient times. 

 

It's really no different than those who claim that the story of Jesus' life is actually a retelling of the story of the birth, life and death/resurrection of Horus or some other pagan god.  I have found a lot of really revisionist history and outright lies in people's attempts to tag Christianity as a pagan religion.

 

Before xmas was the Roman saturnalia 200 AD circa and before that was something earlier and so on.

Most of our xmas customs evolved from ancient pagan practices.-

even the prophets warned the jews to avoid  the Babylonian practices where a lot of our current customs evolved. Jer; 3;13,  circa 500-600 BC

 

that is complete nonsense.   Most of Christmas tradition orginated in Christian Europe, not in Babylon.

 

You need to look a little deeper. santa clause/jolly old nick some of those things evolved during Christian Europe but the Dec 25 birthday is about as pagan as you can get.

There are multitudes of history books and encyclopedias that explore the ancient past of xmas customs.

Tree decorating, exchanging gifts, caroling, ornaments, virgin birth, nativity scene, etc.are pagan practices going back thousands of years back before Christ.

take a look at Hislops " The Two Babylons " or the encyclopedia of religion and ethics.There are too many resources to mention.

Christmas contradicts biblical facts.

Xmas is rooted in ancient customs and religious practices that has nothing to do with Christianity and the Bible.

 

Easter, which is approaching soon, is another example of traditions that are not of Christian origin

 

Rather than follow ancient or modern mythological practices God shows us a better way of life with His sacred Holy feast days.

 

The choices you make will affect your destiny.

 

 

Are you really making the celebration of Christmas and Easter a salvation issue? Do you really believe those who celebrate Dec. 25th as Jesus birthday are risking their salvation?

 

Christmas is on Dec 25th. Saturnalia began on Dec. 17th. The winter solstice is on Dec. 21st. None of these dates match.  

A pagan practice involves the worship of pagan gods. Jesus is not a pagan god.

 

As far as the OT Holy days, those were given to the children of Israel as a sign between them and God. Not Gentiles. And not the Church. Neither Christmas nor Easter are pagan. And we are under the New Covenant, not the Mosaic covenant.

 

You read too much really bad information which is usually written with an agenda to justify bad theology. I would suggest reading some genuine Messianic Judaism sites to get the real information.  The UMJC has many papers written on these topics.    

 

So much to say and so little time.

i;m not trying to make an issue here-that's your department.

If we have prolific proof available as we do with the origins of christmas including even the catholic encyclopedias that xmas is ripe in pagan philosophy and we ignore it

so as not to upset our comfortable way of celebrating than we could be at risk of sinning willfully.

Christ was not born in the winter on or near December 25-there's Biblical proof.

When it comes to the children of Israel we find that they were made up of 12 tribes-the tribe of Judah (Jews) being only one of them.

The Israelites consisted of gentiles as well during the exodus.

When God made His covenant with the children of Israel and their descendants it included all 12 tribes.

Is it possible that some of us are part of the latter day Israelites?

Paul brought the church and its teachings and observances of God's feast days to the gentiles.

There is no mention of christmas celebrations in the New Testament.

You won't even find a religious service or feast day held to commerorate Jesus birth in the NT.

December 25th has a very dark and checkered past.

Saturnalia began on the 17th but ran for 7 days to the 24 - our christmas eve,

Dec 25 was the original celebrated winter solstice. It was changed later in history to the 21st.

businesses were closed, parties were held, gifts exchanged-sound familiar?

It is a fact that Dec 25 was the birthday for many ancient sun gods part of the winter solstice celebrations.

During the time of the Apostles and the NT church Romans celebrated the feast of the saturnalia  while the church kept the " feasts of the Lord "

The Christian history books over the centuries showed an animosity to xmas because of their relationship to sun worshiping.

Xmas was banned at one time in England and in New England.

But another popular religious holiday, Easter has an even more deceptive past.

Check out its origins. We all have the tools in our world of technology.

 

 

 

 

I believe in the eyes of God,there is only one church,that is church of Jesus Christ,i may be right or wrong,iam open to correction,A preacher said that because of church doctrine and tradition of men,many christian will go to hell fire,do you guys agree with him,some christian doesn't celebrate christmas,they said Jesus was not born on 25th, and beside it is not biblical,and Christ did not ask us to celebrate His birth,I want to ask is it a must that every christian must celebrate christmas,is celebrating christmas biblical or tradition of men.some church said that it is not good for a christian to drink alcohol,why some encourage it,because the first miracle Jesus perform on earth,was turning water to wine.what do you think.

Hi Jerry,

 

I don't celebrate Christmas because it's not a Christian holiday. The Church swallowed up the pagan holiday of the Saturnalia. There were pagan celebrations that centered around Dec. 25 and the winter solstice the shortest day of the year. They saw this as a renewing as the days began to get longer. As more and more pagans turned to Christianity the church incorporated their holiday. Also, Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25. I believe He was born on Sept 12 3BC. 

 

The reason I don't celebrate Christmas is twofold, one, it's not from Scripture, and two In Deuteronomy God specifically told the Jews that they were not to worship Him the way the pagans worshiped their gods.  If you look at Christmas and the celebrations they are they way the pagans worshiped their gods. The pagans used trees, wreaths, lights, etc and all of these are found in Christmas celebrations.

 

Actually there is no archeological evidence of ancients employing modern Christmas traditions.  A lot of that is made up history revisionism.   Most modern Christmas traditions sprung up after the Reformation in Europe, not in ancient times. 

 

It's really no different than those who claim that the story of Jesus' life is actually a retelling of the story of the birth, life and death/resurrection of Horus or some other pagan god.  I have found a lot of really revisionist history and outright lies in people's attempts to tag Christianity as a pagan religion.

 

Before xmas was the Roman saturnalia 200 AD circa and before that was something earlier and so on.

Most of our xmas customs evolved from ancient pagan practices.-

even the prophets warned the jews to avoid  the Babylonian practices where a lot of our current customs evolved. Jer; 3;13,  circa 500-600 BC

 

that is complete nonsense.   Most of Christmas tradition orginated in Christian Europe, not in Babylon.

 

You need to look a little deeper. santa clause/jolly old nick some of those things evolved during Christian Europe but the Dec 25 birthday is about as pagan as you can get.

There are multitudes of history books and encyclopedias that explore the ancient past of xmas customs.

Tree decorating, exchanging gifts, caroling, ornaments, virgin birth, nativity scene, etc.are pagan practices going back thousands of years back before Christ.

take a look at Hislops " The Two Babylons " or the encyclopedia of religion and ethics.There are too many resources to mention.

Christmas contradicts biblical facts.

Xmas is rooted in ancient customs and religious practices that has nothing to do with Christianity and the Bible.

Easter, which is approaching soon, is another example of traditions that are not of Christian origin

Rather than follow ancient or modern mythological practices God shows us a better way of life with His sacred Holy feast days.

The choices you make will affect your destiny.

 

 

I believe in the eyes of God,there is only one church,that is church of Jesus Christ,i may be right or wrong,iam open to correction,A preacher said that because of church doctrine and tradition of men,many christian will go to hell fire,do you guys agree with him,some christian doesn't celebrate christmas,they said Jesus was not born on 25th, and beside it is not biblical,and Christ did not ask us to celebrate His birth,I want to ask is it a must that every christian must celebrate christmas,is celebrating christmas biblical or tradition of men.some church said that it is not good for a christian to drink alcohol,why some encourage it,because the first miracle Jesus perform on earth,was turning water to wine.what do you think.

Hi Jerry,

 

I don't celebrate Christmas because it's not a Christian holiday. The Church swallowed up the pagan holiday of the Saturnalia. There were pagan celebrations that centered around Dec. 25 and the winter solstice the shortest day of the year. They saw this as a renewing as the days began to get longer. As more and more pagans turned to Christianity the church incorporated their holiday. Also, Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25. I believe He was born on Sept 12 3BC. 

 

The reason I don't celebrate Christmas is twofold, one, it's not from Scripture, and two In Deuteronomy God specifically told the Jews that they were not to worship Him the way the pagans worshiped their gods.  If you look at Christmas and the celebrations they are they way the pagans worshiped their gods. The pagans used trees, wreaths, lights, etc and all of these are found in Christmas celebrations.

 

Actually there is no archeological evidence of ancients employing modern Christmas traditions.  A lot of that is made up history revisionism.   Most modern Christmas traditions sprung up after the Reformation in Europe, not in ancient times. 

 

It's really no different than those who claim that the story of Jesus' life is actually a retelling of the story of the birth, life and death/resurrection of Horus or some other pagan god.  I have found a lot of really revisionist history and outright lies in people's attempts to tag Christianity as a pagan religion.

 

Before xmas was the Roman saturnalia 200 AD circa and before that was something earlier and so on.

Most of our xmas customs evolved from ancient pagan practices.-

even the prophets warned the jews to avoid  the Babylonian practices where a lot of our current customs evolved. Jer; 3;13,  circa 500-600 BC

What I find interesting is God created angels, spiritual beings, to be His special agents so to speak. 

And it seems He gave them free choice as well. You would think that they would be beyond the temptation realm programmed to serve and protect existing within God's spiritual kingdom.

Yet about a third of them  rebelled and made a bad choice following Lucifer and banished from God's Holy place.

Wouldn't God have control over His angels? And why would they choose to disobey since they already had the greatest existence you could imagine?

Were angels predestined?

In Matt 12:36 Jesus tells us we will have to answer for our actions.

God does not know what choices we will make. He gives us free choice yes, but then what would the purpose of Judgment day be if our outcome has already been predetermined?

why does He say choose life over death if He already knows what we will do/

I'm sure He has a fair idea because of our carnal mind and the temptations we face what we might choose-but I don't think the ending has already been decided.

We are not worshipping holidays, so what you said Fruitful is not clear at all.  There is nothing in scripture that forbids us from celebrating birthdays, Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, Groundhog Day, or the other holidays that come up each year.  I got out my concordance, and looked up every scripture where the word tradition and traditions was used, and none of them have anything to do with celebrating Christmas.  It is possible for someone to celebrate all of the man-made holidays as well as God's holy days.  In addition to that, One Light is correctly applying that passage from Romans 14.  We are not required to keep the feast days. 

You have to go deeper than a concordance to find the origins of birthdays and easter, and the likes of christmas. You have to to look into ancient history, encyclopedias, bible hand books, and the Babylonian practices. we can easily lose sight  of the special meanings of God's holy days when we vary or alter  the dates and times God instituted for us to observe. these days were meant.to be kept forever and ever, they were not temporary or part of Moses law.

God said in Deut 12;32-do not add to what I command you to observe.

Your duty is to " prove all things "-the problem with many of those man made holidays is they correspond  with many pagan practices.

We are to follow God's examples.not our personal reasoning. 

Christmas and easter were not celebrated in the bible  although the OT refers to pagan customs that were adopted to those traditions we now keep with christ as the central figure.

Jesus, and the apostles kept God's feast day years after the birth of the NTChurch-it wasn;t until hundreds of years later false teaches started to amalgamate local customs with God's festivals until they were nothing like the original Holy days God ordained.

what do you have to lose when you celebrate God's Holydays? Other than eternal life.

why the adversity to it all?

 

People that think they can follow any traditions whenever they want are in for a big surprise.

Following God's appointed Holydays versus man's concocted days of worship is not works-it's obedience to His commandments for a special purpose.

there is enough in the Bible to show us that it does matter to God that He expects us to follow and worship Him in spirit and truth-not in corrupted, vile practices rooted in worship of other gods.

Taking unauthorized liberty to do things such as altering God's instructions for worship and honor is sinful.

How many warnings in the Bible do we need?

We live in an age with our technology and research capable of dissecting every idol based tradition known today, so we have no excuse to fabricate theories why and when we can keep them.

We cannot serve two masters.

We cannot embrace two competing systems of worship.

By what authority did we change the days we observe when only God has the divine privilege to sanctify something.

Don't let false teachers twist scripture to suit their agenda and make changes according to their view.

However some people reason or rationalize the observances and celebrations we blindly follow, God makes it clear we must follow His directions and commandments about His days and forms of worship.

We can choose the feast days instituted by God or the holidays substituted by men.

It's your choice.

The problem with what you are saying is that God never forbids us to observe days he didn't institute as holidays.  There is nothing in scripture that says I cannot celebrate someone's birthday.  There is nothing that says I cannot celebrate the 4th of July in remembrance of the beginning of this great nation.  There is likewise nothing in scripture that says I cannot celebrate the day Jesus was born or the day he rose from the dead.  The fact some heathens celebrate idols on a particular day doesn't defile the day.  This is the day that the Lord has made, I will rejoice and be glad in it.  That can be said every single day, including December 25. 

 

God makes it clear we are worshiping in vain traditions of men. THAT IS AS FORBIDDING AS IT GETS.

There is a difference between Holy day and holiday=one is a religious observance and the other is a day for personal pleasure.

birthdays are rooted deeply in pagan traditions. Research their origins and a little astrology 

the Bible doesn't give us the specific date of Jesus birth but the time frame is nowhere near Dec 25-that date belongs to a pagan tradition.

God gives us the specific days and instructions for worshiping Him. When we decide to use pagan customs to honor God we are sinning.

You can't have it both ways.

almost everyday in todays world we have a special observance attached to them like earth day or father's day, etc. but those traditions are not corrupting God's instructions. if they do, then we need to avoid them.

I thought it might be obvious since God did not institute or command idol worshiping pagan holidays.

But up first for this time of year-Passover and the Feast of Unleavened bread.

Why?- to honor God in the way He wants to be worshiped-" in spirit and truth " not in vain.

Also to follow the example of Jesus Christ and the apostles of the early church.

by following them we get a better understanding of God's ultimate plan for humanity.

God's sacred holy days have far much more significance than any man made customs. 

What reasons can you give for not keeping God ordained festivals?

People that think they can follow any traditions whenever they want are in for a big surprise.

Following God's appointed Holydays versus man's concocted days of worship is not works-it's obedience to His commandments for a special purpose.

there is enough in the Bible to show us that it does matter to God that He expects us to follow and worship Him in spirit and truth-not in corrupted, vile practices rooted in worship of other gods.

Taking unauthorized liberty to do things such as altering God's instructions for worship and honor is sinful.

How many warnings in the Bible do we need?

We live in an age with our technology and research capable of dissecting every idol based tradition known today, so we have no excuse to fabricate theories why and when we can keep them.

We cannot serve two masters.

We cannot embrace two competing systems of worship.

By what authority did we change the days we observe when only God has the divine privilege to sanctify something.

Don't let false teachers twist scripture to suit their agenda and make changes according to their view.

However some people reason or rationalize the observances and celebrations we blindly follow, God makes it clear we must follow His directions and commandments about His days and forms of worship.

We can choose the feast days instituted by God or the holidays substituted by men.

It's your choice.

 

Doesn't Rev 20:4-6 show that the faithful followers in Christ are the ones in the first resurrection who lived in and reigned with Christ.a thousand years. They have already been judged to rule with Him. They are the first fruits.

The  rest of the dead -unbelievers, people who know nothing of Christ are not resurrected until after the thousand years

Hi fruitfull77, I didn't want to leave you hanging as you have a valid question. But I don't want to hijack the thread either with prophecy which entails alot of teaching. Here is the scripture text you are asking about....

 

Revelation 20:1-6 - AND I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.  And he laid hold on the dragon that old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years.  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled and after that he must be loosed a little season.   And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them; and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image , neither had recieved his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.  But the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years were finished.  This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:  on such the second death hath no power,  but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reighn with him a thousand years.

 

First of all,  all of the believing saints will be a part of the first resurrection.  It is being called the first resurrection because these saints spoken of in the scriptural text who survived the tribulation period who had not worshipped the beast or taken the mark of the beast.  These saints who had remained faithful and steadfast to God will at the end of the tribulation period and at the beginning of the 1000 year millinenial reign of Christ on earth.  Will join those in the first resurrection and will rule and reign with Christ as these triumphant tribulation saints too will have part with those in the first resurrection.  Also the 144,000 Jews in Revelation 7:1-8  that were sealed during the tribulation will join and have a part in the first resurrection ruling and reigning with Christ in the 1000 year millenial reign of Christ.  These Jews who will be sealed during the tribulation period will be encouraged in Revelation 6:10-11 that they should rest a little season, until their brethren, that should be killed as they were should be fulfilled (speaking of the saints who didn't worship the beast nor took his mark).  hope this helped some. blessings

 

 

Yes-concur that all the saints in Christ including the 144,000 and the great multitude of verse 9 in Rev 7 and also the saints from the beginning of time like Abraham and David, the apostles, etc take part in the first resurrection. those that are alive will be changed into spirit and along with  those from the graves will rise into immortality to join Christ in the air and then reign with Him for the 1000 year period.

then after the 1,000 year mill the rest of the dead (not yet in Christ) rise in the second resurrection-Rev20:5 

 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.:"

later the Great White Throne judgment happens.

Are we still on the right track?

God can be everywhere at once because He sends His Spirit everywhere., and that is just as effective as if God were standing right next us.

You err ... not knowing the Scriptures.

 

God told them to "remember" a great many things, and they did not.

 

God was also sick of their Sabbaths - said so Himself.

 

It is an INSERTION to suggest that the 4th command was not mentioned because they kept the Sabbath.  Again, a result of not knowing the Scriptures.

 

 

The Hebrew Scriptures even show how the Jews murmured when entering such observances, saying that they couldn't wait for it to be over to get back to life as normal.

 

 

And even when the JUDAIZERS tried to tell the early Christians to do what the Jews did, including observing the Sabbath, the Church made it clear that "WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMAND"

 

... going as far as listing things that they were to observe, and even though it would have been a perfect opportunity to list the Sabbath ... they did not.

 

 

"Sabbath is made for MEN, not man for the Sabbath" - Jesus

 

 

"I fear for you because you observe days, months, years ..." - Paul

 

 

The Church BEGAN on a Sunday

 

The Church continued to gather on the eight day/first day, which is a Sunday

 

They Church gave tithes and offers on those days, which is part of worship.

 

In four different places of Early Church writings (before the Vatican existed), we see that they gathered on Sunday, calling it also the "Lords Day" - which is the day of His resurrection.  So, we not only see this in Scripture, we see it in history as well.

 

However, if someone wants to worship on Saturday, that is perfectly fine.  Scriptures make both sides of the coin perfectly fine.

In what scripture did Jesus say He was sick of their Sabbaths? He may be referring to the way they kept it.

Doesn't Rev 20:4-6 show that the faithful followers in Christ are the ones in the first resurrection who lived in and reigned with Christ.a thousand years. They have already been judged to rule with Him. They are the first fruits.

The  rest of the dead -unbelievers, people who know nothing of Christ are not resurrected until after the thousand years