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I decided to put this in the OP...

Well, like every other faith group, the Amish are not perfect...but they are a very good model of how faith and works work together...how to keep from being prideful...and putting God first in thier everyday lives. They definitely stand apart...and follow the prodical example. You are always welcome back to the community even if you have lived a worldly life for a while...and are repentant. They dont believe that they wont go to heaven if they don't follow those rules...but they keep a firm set of rules to keep themselves from falling into grevious sin. That's as far as I understand it, anyway. No, the rules they follow (the Ordnung they have made up) they think are necessary to attain heaven... which sounds heretical to me.

I've noticed several people holding up the amish a some kind of model community lately, and I have to admit, I find this baffling. This is a group that shuns those who leave the community, that demand adherence to a strict set of complicated rules to be in good standing at the community and the thought that God will allow them into heaven based on how well they do at following these rules. There are rules about how men have to wear their beards, the allowed color of clothing, against belts. Their young people are poorly educated, so that if they do want to leave, they are at a huge disadvantage. Not to mention, they do not evangelize as we are commanded to. I also find it strange that these people are lauded as a model on an internet forum, which they are forbidden to use. It's not a matter of personal choice here, they are forbidden to by their community if they want to remain in the place they grew up, around their family, for the only life they were really prepared for at all. What is so fantastic about this? If you crave simplicity, why not just create that? If you feel that wearing simpler more covering clothes would be better, why not just do that? I don't think holding this group up though is a good idea. Check out this below: http://web.missouri....udduthfs00.html "Indeed, the Amish believe that the entire purpose of this life is to prepare for the life to come by overcoming their corrupt human nature. Not only does this process take most people an entire lifetime to complete, one's salvation must always be in question (Hartman). A person overcomes his or her sinfulness by yielding to the church authority structure, a concept known as Gelassenheit (Kraybill 102). If one obeys the church leaders, who are God's mouthpieces, or the rules those leaders establish under divine guidance, one is disobeying God Himself. To borrow a Buddhist term, the church is the Mahayana, or "great vehicle," used to bring people to salvation, and all those not on board have no hope of achieving eternal life. It is only available through the guidance and authority of the Amish faith." One obeys church leaders, if they don't, they are disobeying God Himself. This is disturbing.

This OP is pretty loaded. Who is going to think that they don't take reasonable correction? Everyone thinks that, and everyone thinks that everyone else is unreasonable. That is a foregone conclusion.

The Amish think that you have to follow their church's teachings, and if you fail, you go to hell. They certainly include works into their notion of salvation. I have no idea why anybody would hold them up as a model for Christians to follow.

I got you there and I agree. I've struggled with smoking for over a decade now and have a similar feeling about it. I haven't been convicted by it in terms of it being sinful for me (maybe I will?), but I know it's just generally a dumb thing to do. thanks. I gave up over a year ago, overnight, after one prayer. I am still amazed at the awesome God we serve. All i said was "Jesus I want to give up smoking and i can't do it by myself, I need you to to help me" and He did. I smoked for 40 years until that Saturday night, never touched one again from the Sunday morning. No craving. coughing, eating, nothing. Just clear lungs and no craving. I wish i could tell people about my struggle to give up, but there wasn't one. I can tell them about Jesus though! I never quit because I thought it was a sin. I did it because I was looking at stuff in my life that did not honor God, or for that matter my wife, who has never smoked. It was something , among others, I had to get out of the way. That's pretty cool fez and what a nice burden to be free of. I haven't smoked in a couple weeks now, but really for the past few years it has tended to go from not smoking for a few months and then in the face of stress to moderate to light smoking so I figure I will not advertise myself as 'done' until I manage to stick with it for at least over a year. Perhaps I will pray about sticking to it also. Keep at it! Will keep you in my prayers! thanks BFP

Nor do I. It's living under the law, and even worse in a lot of cases mans law. I already said in a previous thread that I think the Amish are too legalistic.Please see post #22.That has nothing to do with covering up their bodies. Right, you are still missing my point. I have tried to make it several times in this thread and in other threads, and it's clear I'm not saying it in a manner that is coming across to you. It's no big deal, but it does seem like we will likely just go around in the same circle.

A bared food?No,we do not live in Iran.No one is insenuating here that everyone has to be wrapped in a bag.You are over reacting.Everyone knows what modest appropriate attire is.If you are dressed like a harlot then except the fact that you look like one.If it does not seem God honoring to you to dress in a manner that is pleasing to God maybe you had better check your heart. No, not everyone agrees! That's just the point. You seem to think it's obvious that women would be better off wearing large shapeless dresses with old-timey aprons. Others would think that those same women in the large shapeless dresses are dressing like harlots by showing their face, hands, and feet. I see absolutely no problem with shorts and t shirts. Women in other places in the world go topless, everyone thinks that is fine, but think that exposing any leg is dressing like a harlot. No, not "everyone knows what modest appropriate attire is". That has been shown to be factually mistaken in the highest degree. I do not see a problem with shorts and a t-shirt.But does the shorts show half of the buttocks?Does the t-shirt show half of the breasts?Dressing modest is common sense.If an adult who has not been brought up in the jungles of remote tribes does not know what appropriate apparel is then they might be deceiving themselves.Alot of people in this world want to make excuses to do what they want to do.To conform to this world.And that includes Christians unfortunately.Why have one foot in heaven and one foot on Earth? To be honest bopeep I do not think you are addressing the argument I am making.

Just so we keep in mind what are are actually talking about here in terms of adulating Amish dress as ideal. I got this from http://pittsburgh.about.com/cs/pennsylvania/a/amish_2.htm "The Amish dress in a very simple style, avoiding all but the most basic ornamentation. Clothing is made at home of plain fabrics and is primarily dark in color. Amish men in general wear straight-cut suits and coats without collars, lapels or pockets. Trousers never have creases or cuffs and are worn with suspenders. Belts are forbidden, as are sweaters, neckties and gloves. Men's shirts fasten with traditional buttons in most orders, while suit coats and vests fasten with hooks and eyes. Young men are clean shaven prior to marriage, while married men are required to let their beards grow. Mustaches are forbidden. Amish women typically wear solid-color dresses with long sleeves and a full skirt, covered with a cape and an apron. They never cut their hair, and wear it in a braid or bun on the back of the head concealed with a small white cap or black bonnet. Clothing is fastened with straight pins or snaps, stockings are black cotton and shoes are also black. Amish women are not permitted to wear patterned clothing or jewelry. The Ordnung of the specific Amish order may dictate matters of dress as explicit as the length of a skirt or the width of a seam." This is a dress code, a requirement for living in some of these communities. Are people really doing this out of their hearts to please God? To not wear patterned cloth, to avoid zippers or belts? Keep in mind also that the Amish associate obeying the rules of their churches with salvation. I do not think this is right.

I got you there and I agree. I've struggled with smoking for over a decade now and have a similar feeling about it. I haven't been convicted by it in terms of it being sinful for me (maybe I will?), but I know it's just generally a dumb thing to do. thanks. I gave up over a year ago, overnight, after one prayer. I am still amazed at the awesome God we serve. All i said was "Jesus I want to give up smoking and i can't do it by myself, I need you to to help me" and He did. I smoked for 40 years until that Saturday night, never touched one again from the Sunday morning. No craving. coughing, eating, nothing. Just clear lungs and no craving. I wish i could tell people about my struggle to give up, but there wasn't one. I can tell them about Jesus though! I never quit because I thought it was a sin. I did it because I was looking at stuff in my life that did not honor God, or for that matter my wife, who has never smoked. It was something , among others, I had to get out of the way. That's pretty cool fez and what a nice burden to be free of. I haven't smoked in a couple weeks now, but really for the past few years it has tended to go from not smoking for a few months and then in the face of stress to moderate to light smoking so I figure I will not advertise myself as 'done' until I manage to stick with it for at least over a year. Perhaps I will pray about sticking to it also.

I got you there and I agree. I've struggled with smoking for over a decade now and have a similar feeling about it. I haven't been convicted by it in terms of it being sinful for me (maybe I will?), but I know it's just generally a dumb thing to do. thanks.

A bared food?No,we do not live in Iran.No one is insenuating here that everyone has to be wrapped in a bag.You are over reacting.Everyone knows what modest appropriate attire is.If you are dressed like a harlot then except the fact that you look like one.If it does not seem God honoring to you to dress in a manner that is pleasing to God maybe you had better check your heart. No, not everyone agrees! That's just the point. You seem to think it's obvious that women would be better off wearing large shapeless dresses with old-timey aprons. Others would think that those same women in the large shapeless dresses are dressing like harlots by showing their face, hands, and feet. I see absolutely no problem with shorts and t shirts. Women in other places in the world go topless, everyone thinks that is fine, but think that exposing any leg is dressing like a harlot. No, not "everyone knows what modest appropriate attire is". That has been shown to be factually mistaken in the highest degree.

I agree. I have objections to Christians smacking the hands of other Christians simply because they feel uncomfortble with what others do. Traipsing through the threads, I have come to expect that what one person may consider a great effront, another will observe as culture. THAT, is why I think scritpure is our best guideline along with a conscience kept alive through a personal realtionship with God our Father and His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit. As Paul observed, the law serves to point out sin and where there is the law, is is more easily broken and the temptation to do so, actually increases. In fact, in Paul's own words, here is that observation: The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, Romans 5:20 Pointing out every sin in the world does nothing more than increase the temptation. Every day we sin...therefore, we realize the impossibility of pleasing God in our own flesh, that is, the observaton of the law and wearing it like a crown of thorns on our head. It simply does not work. There is freedom from the law only in Christ Jesus and while we are aware of our condition, we know that God's grace surpasses that condition and enables us to live in a fallen world...something that countless articles on how bad it all has gotten (and going to get worse folks) does not do. Yeah, I agree with you here.. and keeping in mind that what is okay for one person might not be for another, and vice versa. I have a real issue with the tendency to try to 'make law' stuff that isn't clearly delineated in the scripture. I don't think that gives enough credit to the wisdom of God or the guidance of the Spirit. I believe that if I am doing something that God does not want me doing, He will correct me. I am not against people giving me arguments for why they think an activity is wrong, but when they can't provide any solid scriptural reasons for it, why would I feel myself bound to their tastes or own personal convictions? Well here's some scripture Psalm 101:3 I will not set before my eyes anything that is worthless. I hate the work of those who fall away; it shall not cling to me. 1Chor 15:33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.” Matthew 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell Galations 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Romans 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. Matthew 6:22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, Romans 1:32 Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them Phillippians 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. And as far as being holier than thou...no I dont think anyone here who is against TV means it that way...they are sharing thier thoughts. Yes, that is definately Scripture, but in what way are you applying it? If you want to give a dress code, say like the Amish, do you know that is what pleases God? And what about women whose culture finds it perfectly acceptable to be naked from the waist up? If you try to say God turns those women away, I would state that you are unequivacably wrong. You see the problem actually arises when one person tries to tell everyone else what they personally find offensive and in so doing, appear to have the impression that the rest of Christianity should agree with that. Providing verses does absoultey nothing as it is actually the HEART that God is trying to reach. Anyone can make a set of rules as has been observed endlessly and tiresomely. I doubt that what I personally observe as just or honorable would necessairly be so for you or those who think that anyone who does not agree with the rather silly viewpoint that National Geo photogs are nasty (or whatever was said exactly) . I am firmly convinced that some people absolutely NEED to define a very narrow viewpoint in order to feel comfortable in their skin...that has nothing to do with the Word of God and everything to do with personal experience and a failure to accept freedom in Christ...not to sin, but to relax and understand that we cannot define salvation by rules or our own perception. None of this has anything to do with salvation. We are saved simply by believing, I think we all know that. It is about avoiding anything that may cause us to stumble, or which may get in the way of living as Holy a life as we possibly can on this earth. Not easy. I smoke...cannot seem to break the habit, and when I do get dragged back in because my husband is also a smoker. Something I am going to have to answer to God for. Something that is a stumbling block to my faith. If it were easy to quit, it would have been gone a long time ago Does it affect my salvation...NO...does it affect other parts of my spiritual life, it sure does! May I ask, do you thinking smoking is a sin? or is it something that you were personally convicted that you ought to stop? I have in mind something like the Spirit sanctifying us as individuals at different rates, with different individualistic focuses etc, depending upon our own weaknesses.

Yeah well according to some women shouldn't even be revealing their feet or hands or eyes. Hey, a bared food might cause a man to lust! According to those people all the women here are dressing like 'harlots' (which is also why I wish people would stop throwing around that term). Having some community have especially strict dress codes does not seem God honoring to me.

Ah.. that is a very interesting possibility! I hope you don't mind but I took the liberty of posting a couple verses deu 11:18,19 You shall therefore lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. You shall teach them to your children, talking of them when you are sitting in your house, and when you are walking by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. Sign on your hand, frontlets between your eyes... certainly strong resonances of that.

I think I am going to steal candice's answer to this, after I heard hers it struck me as most reasonable after some consideration. That is, I suspect something non physical is in mind with these passages. The reason I think that makes sense is because 'forehead' and 'hand' could be associated with something like thought and deed. And also, it just doesn't make that much sense to me that a physical mark on the flesh would have that much spiritual force. On the one hand, if you sincerely confess Jesus as Lord you are saved, but on the other during the events at the end of history if you get some kind of physical marking on your body you are out? It's hard to see that easily. The only way to make it work is to add in extra stuff like "only people who are definitely not going to be saved will take the mark", but at that point, the mark being physical seems kind of pointless.

Where there is truth to the 'faith vs science' understanding is in the numbers though. The number of believers among scientists (say PhDs) who, say, believe in a literal resurrection of Jesus etc.,are very few as compared to the wider population. In fact, the difference is quite startling. Further there is something of an anti religious bias in the scientific community. Why hat is true though is another question. True enough. But I would point out that does substantially change the conversation in the area of discussion and debate. If were talking just about numbers then I could bring up logical fallacies like argumentum ad populum. Which some folks think only theists use.... And also as you alluded to their is the nature of universities themselves. On the issue of politics univesities have been far from neutral on politics (had a thread months ago on the following link). And I would naturally have to assume that sort of thing carries over to other areas since people usually are not compartmentalized in their behavior and personality. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/aug/1/liberal-majority-on-campus-yes-were-biased/ So anyway I'm not impressed by the demographics. When journalists, and academics take that side then many people will side with them simply because it looks like the reasonable side based on appearance. Argument ad populum how so? I am pointing out the fact that in practice there is some 'faith vs science' actually being practiced. It would only be an ad populum fallacy if I tried to appeal to the large majority of scientists not being believers as evidence that believing is wrong, or something along those lines. But it is entirely appropriate to bring it up if my point is to discuss how in practice there is a bias against religious belief in scientific circles (and potentially vice versa also, but obviously I would need to explore another statistic for that). I don't know what 'being impressed' or not by the demographics has to do with the point I made.

Where there is truth to the 'faith vs science' understanding is in the numbers though. The number of believers among scientists (say PhDs) who, say, believe in a literal resurrection of Jesus etc.,are very few as compared to the wider population. In fact, the difference is quite startling. Further there is something of an anti religious bias in the scientific community. Why hat is true though is another question.

I agree. I have objections to Christians smacking the hands of other Christians simply because they feel uncomfortble with what others do. Traipsing through the threads, I have come to expect that what one person may consider a great effront, another will observe as culture. THAT, is why I think scritpure is our best guideline along with a conscience kept alive through a personal realtionship with God our Father and His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit. As Paul observed, the law serves to point out sin and where there is the law, is is more easily broken and the temptation to do so, actually increases. In fact, in Paul's own words, here is that observation: The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, Romans 5:20 Pointing out every sin in the world does nothing more than increase the temptation. Every day we sin...therefore, we realize the impossibility of pleasing God in our own flesh, that is, the observaton of the law and wearing it like a crown of thorns on our head. It simply does not work. There is freedom from the law only in Christ Jesus and while we are aware of our condition, we know that God's grace surpasses that condition and enables us to live in a fallen world...something that countless articles on how bad it all has gotten (and going to get worse folks) does not do. Yeah, I agree with you here.. and keeping in mind that what is okay for one person might not be for another, and vice versa. I have a real issue with the tendency to try to 'make law' stuff that isn't clearly delineated in the scripture. I don't think that gives enough credit to the wisdom of God or the guidance of the Spirit. I believe that if I am doing something that God does not want me doing, He will correct me. I am not against people giving me arguments for why they think an activity is wrong, but when they can't provide any solid scriptural reasons for it, why would I feel myself bound to their tastes or own personal convictions? Well here's some scripture Psalm 101:3 I will not set before my eyes anything that is worthless. I hate the work of those who fall away; it shall not cling to me. 1Chor 15:33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.” Matthew 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell Galations 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Romans 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. Matthew 6:22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, Romans 1:32 Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them Phillippians 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. And as far as being holier than thou...no I dont think anyone here who is against TV means it that way...they are sharing thier thoughts. Alright. None of that speaks against what I do. None of that gives specific 1,2,3 guidelines.. these all have to be applied to specific situations with discernment.

I agree. I have objections to Christians smacking the hands of other Christians simply because they feel uncomfortble with what others do. Traipsing through the threads, I have come to expect that what one person may consider a great effront, another will observe as culture. THAT, is why I think scritpure is our best guideline along with a conscience kept alive through a personal realtionship with God our Father and His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit. As Paul observed, the law serves to point out sin and where there is the law, is is more easily broken and the temptation to do so, actually increases. In fact, in Paul's own words, here is that observation: The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, Romans 5:20 Pointing out every sin in the world does nothing more than increase the temptation. Every day we sin...therefore, we realize the impossibility of pleasing God in our own flesh, that is, the observaton of the law and wearing it like a crown of thorns on our head. It simply does not work. There is freedom from the law only in Christ Jesus and while we are aware of our condition, we know that God's grace surpasses that condition and enables us to live in a fallen world...something that countless articles on how bad it all has gotten (and going to get worse folks) does not do. Yeah, I agree with you here.. and keeping in mind that what is okay for one person might not be for another, and vice versa. I have a real issue with the tendency to try to 'make law' stuff that isn't clearly delineated in the scripture. I don't think that gives enough credit to the wisdom of God or the guidance of the Spirit. I believe that if I am doing something that God does not want me doing, He will correct me. I am not against people giving me arguments for why they think an activity is wrong, but when they can't provide any solid scriptural reasons for it, why would I feel myself bound to their tastes or own personal convictions?

I know this is off-topic, but I am curious. What is it that does not appeal to you - the music styles, the lyrics, or the quality of the music? Or something else? I missed this until man quoted you. Sorry! Yeah I just don't enjoy it. In my opinion I do not find the quality high. It's as if they are relying on trying to evoke cheap emotionality to sell... but this is just how it is for me when I have tried to listen to it. There's just something about the genre that doesn't work for me. That being said, there are some gorgeous classical Christian themed music from a variety of eras that I enjoy a lot, and did even as a nonbeliever.

That's pretty interesting lol.. honestly the things I have been convicted about media wise have been for reasons that seem similar to what you're describing.. hard to explain, but I can think of one thing in particular which I have to imagine for most people is not a problem but for me I had a reaction to which was problematic.

The problem I have with "what would Jesus do" type questions is that typically people just project their own biases onto what Jesus would hate so it doesn't do much for me. "Well Jesus wouldn't like that song so you shouldn't listen to it" type of thing. Unless it's obviously blasphemous or something it's not a very helpful consideration. I suppose what it comes down to for me is, a lot of people seem to conflate being a Christian with having certain popular culture tastes, and I just don't go that way. If it's a matter in which it is clearly sinful, someone should be able to show me that from scripture. Short of it being universally sinful such that it can be shown scripturally, perhaps God will convict me of certain things I enjoy. I can certainly see that happening.Otherwise, a lot of this sounds like a lot of 'holier than thou' type of language based in personal tastes and biases.

I was thinking the same thing Q. Modesty will vary from culture to culture. You bring up a good point about 1 Timm 2... Braided hair and shaved heads... How would you answer this question in red? Curious. If you see those with no clothes on in National Geographic it is because they live in the Jungle.That is the only why they know how to present themselves.No one sees them except creepy National Geographic photographers who want to capture the naked person living in the jungle. Creepy? Really? Every N Geo photographer who happens to catch a person in the jungle sans clothes is creepy? FYI, they are usually only naked from the waist up So does that also mean that ALL artists, photographers and sculpters are also all creepy should they in some way render the human form as God intended? After all, it was only AFTER the sin of disobedience that the occupants of the garden required clothes. I think an awful lot of people might object to your rendition of creepy and that includes Christians who acknowledge and live by the admonition to dressing appropriately as a believer I have seen many totally naked people of the jungle photographed in National Geographic.What is the point?That is like going to a naked beach fully clothed to gawk and take pictures of the naked.I do know people do this.I think that nudity in art should be avoided.Many of this world would not agree with me. When I was in college, by my senior year, some of the remaining courses I needed were pretty generic. I decided to take a class on drawing. I have never taken an art class before, even in high school. (FYI - I discovered I am definitely not a gifted artist). I also tend to be shy, and much to my absolute shock, they did use live models. Both men and women, naked. What's worse, one male was a student trying to make some spending money, and I knew him. The other students in the class were mainly art majors. They knew the models, and would carry on everyday conversations with them while they stood there in the buff. Well, after my face returned to a more normal color, and I actually started to draw, I became so involved in drawing to represent the human body on a 2 dimensional paper, that I stopped really seeing people, and started seeing them as subjects to draw, not actual living breathing naked people. There was nothing sensual about drawing the subject matter. To be a truly serious artist, the ability to understand how to draw a human body is a necessity. But I have seen a Michelangelo sculpture. David is the most famous, and it is a true work of art. When dealing with art, a person who sees a masterpiece and sees pornography vs a person who sees the masterpiece and sees a masterpiece of astounding work, is truthfully, a reflection of the state of the persons mind. And/or culture. This is an interesting point-- makes a lot of sense to me. One concern I have is a lot of overemphasis on 'covering up' for the sake of covering up might lead to a state of mind that interprets any nakedness, even if it is in a masterpiece, as pornographic, and that strikes me as sad.

I don't think the way the amish dress is anymore intrinsically, or less intrinsically 'pleasing to God' than the way any other young woman dresses per se... the issue is always of cultural norms and intentions. The amish girls dress that way because that's the norm in their community. To some they are revealing all too much. I don't think they are anymore intrinsically modest though than the young topless women fez described in their own communities.