Knowingtruth

Much of the Protestantism is Pauline christianity ignoring the importance of the Gospel! He offered many concessions to Gentiles in his zeal to convert. Those concessions are not valid now. He also comes up with too many self-claims. One example is as an apostle. He was a chosen vessel to the Gentiles. Twelve apostles have already been picked up. Normally no one, including people of other religions, attack Gospel and letters belonging to others. It is Paul and his letters that are questioned. I believe Paul's epistles should complement the Gospel. If found contradictory, no importance to be given to his writing on that particualar concept.

Please do not mix-up giftsl This is not the same as what was observed in Corinth. Jesus gives baptism by the Holy Spirit. Mortal men can only give water baptism. That is right. Without a quote from you, I've not got much to go on. You do refer to Corinthians and I'm guessing that you mean 1 Corinthians 14. If so, your interpretation is generally wrong. 1 Corinthians 14 is a long dissertation by St. Paul suggesting that the excitement the church is experiencing about tongues ought to be moderated. To this day, congregations where this happens sometimes tend to get carried away with the experience and forget the weightier matters of the faith. Be that as it may, scripture never implies or suggests that the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the world or that any of its' gifts will be taken out or that any of its gifts are to be interpreted as being wrong or in error. Scripture implies that all things should be done in order, that's all. I'm not mixing up gifts. All the gifts of the Holy Spirit in evidence during the first century are still being bestowed upon man today. God has not turned His back upon us. *** In another post you suggested that the gifts of the spirit were turned off and on again like water from a faucet. Specifically that the gifts were invented in the early twentieth century. Nothing could be further from the truth. In America, the revival scene was popular way before the Revolution. I used to live in Western New York State in Rochester. The area between Syracuse and Buffalo (please consult a map if it doesn't come to mind) was called the 'burned over district' because itinerant preachers traveled back and forth. The Holy Spirit bestowed its' blessings upon the people there over and over and over again. Further south in America, the general area called the Bible belt experienced similar heated waves of spiritual expression and experience. Space is not sufficient for me to list them all. Much further back, chronicles of the Crusades cite extreme examples of Holy Spirit visitations, experiences and tremendous miracles. People were even knocked to the ground due to the severity of their experience. Today its called 'slain in the spirit'. It never stopped happening. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit comes and goes like the wind. Nobody knows where it comes from and nobody knows where it goes. Wind. Not faucet water. History records that the gifts of the Holy Spirit did not abate. The testimony of Holy Fire goes down through the ages. The Holy Spirit has not gone slack, neither did it need to be reinvented as atheists claim it to be. Then again atheists deny anything that their small minds cannot grasp or invent which is probably why they have a problem with God. and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft... I am not saying all the spiritual gifts have ceased. I am only pointing out that the speaking in unknown tongue through person's spirit ceased in conformity with what Paul advised.

Yes, there are differences. A Christian may be a nominal one being born to Christian parents. A religious Christian. Believer is one who has accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior. Born again is one who gets the blessings from above and leads a transformed life cultivating the fruit of the Spirit. For your second question the answer is no! By the way, you not have asked who is a disciple of Christ? Who is he?

well, i don't know about your Bible, but all nine of mine say that it is the Spirit that is groaning, and the context is saying that there just aren't words to express it. If you've never had the spirit speak with/through your mouth/tongue you probably shouldn't discuss it in depth. Do you think the Holy Spirit will be short of words like a mortal man? I have never had my spirit motivating me to speak in an unknown tongue. I am only questioning the claim that the Holy Spirit speaks an unknown tongue which is not recorded by Paul. well I can personally testify that he does, and when he wakes you up in the middle of the night praying for someone in trouble it isn't always a pleasant experience. It can be very intense. It's also been my experience that sometimes what you pray for isn't always any of your business, but for some reason the prayer is necessary. I am not disputing this. But that doesn't answer the subject of my topic in the OP.

The very fact that Paul discouraged that type of practice, and his subsequent letters indicated in the OP do not include them along with the entire Bible are very good proof that it was a local phenomenon observed in the notorious Corinth! He also hints at its ceasing--when, a matter of discerment. Can you supply the scripture you are referring to? Everything cannot be provided through Scripture that is limited.(John 21:25) Many were lost and destroyed before Canon was decided. For that main reason Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to discern the truth even though Scripture existed at that time. If you have not experiences someone speaking in tongues that were from God, then you have missed a real blessing. Who do you think give tongues if not the Holy Spirit? I will agree that I have heard false tongues. I have also have heard real tongues and was bless from this. I will also say that there are those who do not follow the leading of the Holy Spirit nor scripture, but that does not mean tongues are not real. I do not know which type of tongue you are referring to, unknown or known tongue? I believe the unknown tongue that was observed only in Corinth disappeared. As I said, "you believe", so you refuse to go any further. Scripture does not tell us tongues, known or unknown, have ceased. Matter regarding speaking in unknown tongue is a BIG ZERO in the rest of the entire Bible. Can we not see that plainly? Those who have picked up what was in Corinth now do admit that it had ceased for centuries before its revival about 100 years ago in USA.

well, i don't know about your Bible, but all nine of mine say that it is the Spirit that is groaning, and the context is saying that there just aren't words to express it. If you've never had the spirit speak with/through your mouth/tongue you probably shouldn't discuss it in depth. Do you think the Holy Spirit will be short of words like a mortal man? I have never had my spirit motivating me to speak in an unknown tongue. I am only questioning the claim that the Holy Spirit speaks an unknown tongue which is not recorded by Paul.

Why should I believe something that blasphemy the Holy Spirit? I would be very careful saying scripture itself is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. In fact, that is impossible. If you don't want to accept scripture, that is your choice, but making statements like that will do no less then grieve the Spirit. I am speaking of misleading interpretation on Scripture. Yes, one can grieve Him, not make Him groan! I am not disclaiming the speaking of known tongue moved by the Holy Spirit that does not require an interpreter. What was happening is Corinth was speaking of unknown tongue moved by person's spirit. Right. But the person is using that with the help of his spirit, not the Holy Spirit who has no part to play once the gift is given for common good.

Why should I believe something that blasphemy the Holy Spirit? KT No blasphemy. Rom 8:26 - In the same way the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, BUT the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. In Christ Montana Marv Please read reply no.5

Pray that the Holy Spirit to convince you!

Why should I believe something that blasphemy the Holy Spirit?

More and more churches are giving up this phenomena! Let the light shine on them! I think that is the issue for some! Their perspective may dictate so as to drag down the Holy Spirit to groan for them. God forbid!

Why not? I hear people make that claim, and I don't agree. I need but one verse to tell me something to believe it. No wonder thousands of denominations have sprung up at nooks and corners of the world! A kind of Babel condition imposed by God for the deviated! I could make the same claim concerning the way you come up with your doctrine. You don't like something, so you claim it means something other than what scripture actually says. If I did that throughout the Word of God, I certainly could come up with strange doctrines. Where it says that God so loved the World, I could simply say it really means he hated the world, or that world means the planet and not the human race. I have no reason to accept anything you have said, because in some cases it contradicts the plain meaning of the text, and in others, you simply can't prove your point. It is nothing but theories you have devised in your own mind, like the notion Paul was discouraging speaking in tongues, when he did no such thing. The answer is very simple. Paul desired greater gifts to be sought! (1 Corinthians 12:31) Question... KT you're saying we shouldn't base our theology on one verse of the Bible in red and here you're doing the same thing orange with 1 Cor. 12:31. How does this make sense? God bless, GE There is a lot of weight behind the one I have quoted. My OP is not based on one verse against another. In the course of discussion involving several verses, I have indicated one verse that may answer the particual question that was asked. There's a lot of weight behind all of Scripture. Taken one passage out of context, basing a whole doctrine on it, and saying "this is the answer" is probably not the best way to handle Scripture. It's called proof-texting I believe. Just saying... Am I doing that? Am I not telling that 1 Corinthians chapter 12 is not the complete Bible, and it cannot be a basis for a doctrine?

This is a very good point brother. It may be worthwhile to consider Gospel of John 3:1-21 and especially John 4:21-24 before this deduction. Not sure what you mean KT. What are you wanting to consider with theis passage in John 3? Can we go back to OT rituals etc. since it is also word of God? Did not death Jesus of the cross made them in a way invalid? I'm not sure how this has to do with John 3 but I do agree that ceremonial laws are no longer necessary for the Christian. Jesus didn't make them invalid - they have not lost value. We can still learn from God's Word even regarding Israel and the ceremonial laws. With the new temple of God being the Believer indwelt by the Holy Spirit ceremonial laws are no longer necessary. In otherwords, I think, they became superfluous. But many Messianic Jews do not consider that way. There are Christians who want to support the building of a temple(anti-Christ activities) forgetting that they need to look forward to the spiritual temple in Jesus Christ! Therefore, the context is extremely important to apply the epistles in our lives. The truth should set us free indeed. Be blessed.

I think what was observed subsequently at Corinth after Paul left may be best explained by a joke and stories. Please bear with me. Joke: A dictator of a country decides to help the poor by issuing food grains. They were asked to approach the Food department. One poor guy approaches the officer in the dept. The officer looks for the poor guy's name in the official list. He finds his name under the list of the dead. Hence, refuses to issue the quota. Poor man pleads saying that he is very much alive and can bring witnesses. Annoyed by the pleading, the impatient officer pulls out a revolver from the drawer and shoots the guy declaring that the official records cannot go wrong! When this speaking of unknown tongue was dead as a dodo for centuries, a few people had a look at the canonised Bible about 100 years ago and said that this cannot go wrong. So revived it on their own! A story: A small church in a village was administered by a godly pastor along with innocent and semiliterate folks. His pet dog used to cause disturbance during worship service by jumping on them and howling during singing etc. The congregation decided to kill the dog. But the pastor forbid them to do so. He told them to tie up the dog outside before the service. So this chaining of the dog was done whenever they had service and meetings. The pastor dies after sometime. The remaining folk continued to tie up the dog as the services were led by a senior member with basic knowledge of the Scripture. The dog also dies. However, these innocent folks think that a dog is required as a part of their service, so they get one dog and start chaining that before their services. Here is another story of Leo Tolstoy that I have modified (without his permission--may his soul rest in peace): One evangelist lands in a remote island ship wrecked. As he waits for another ship to pick him up, he gets acquainted with local people who were less learned but with strong faith in Jesus. Noticing that they were not speaking in tongues, he teaches how to do that. After a couple of weeks, a small boat arrives to pick him up. He bids farewell to them and gets into the boat. As he leaves with the boat, within a few minutes a sees a small crowd shouting at him and coming to meet him for seeking clarification on techniques he had taught them. They were walking on the water and approaching the boat. The shocked evangelist goes down on his knees blurting out how can he possibly teach these people of great faith in Jesus Christ that may even cause envy(?) in the heart of Peter! I sincerely hope these will clarify your points. Be blessed.

Please do not mix-up giftsl This is not the same as what was observed in Corinth. Jesus gives baptism by the Holy Spirit. Mortal men can only give water baptism. That is right.

This is a very good point brother. It may be worthwhile to consider Gospel of John 3:1-21 and especially John 4:21-24 before this deduction. Not sure what you mean KT. What are you wanting to consider with theis passage in John 3? Can we go back to OT rituals etc. since it is also word of God? Did not death Jesus of the cross made them in a way invalid?

The very fact that Paul discouraged that type of practice, and his subsequent letters indicated in the OP do not include them along with the entire Bible are very good proof that it was a local phenomenon observed in the notorious Corinth! He also hints at its ceasing--when, a matter of discerment. Can you supply the scripture you are referring to? Everything cannot be provided through Scripture that is limited.(John 21:25) Many were lost and destroyed before Canon was decided. For that main reason Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to discern the truth even though Scripture existed at that time. If you have not experiences someone speaking in tongues that were from God, then you have missed a real blessing. Who do you think give tongues if not the Holy Spirit? I will agree that I have heard false tongues. I have also have heard real tongues and was bless from this. I will also say that there are those who do not follow the leading of the Holy Spirit nor scripture, but that does not mean tongues are not real. I do not know which type of tongue you are referring to, unknown or known tongue? I believe the unknown tongue that was observed only in Corinth disappeared.

This is a clear proof that a tongue speaker is spirited (human) to speak in an unknown language. Many seem to claim that Holy Spirit gives utterance. If a person is given utterance by the Holy Spirit, no mortal man has authority to stop that. Besides, no interpreter is required. Anything that God gives will be in order. This disorderly conduct that was not there when Paul was at Corinth before; Paul condones the people for the already developed trait but advises them to desire superior gifts.

It is well established fact that tongues had ceased for thousands of years before the phenomenon was revived about 100 years ago in USA. The tongues that required no interpreter as indicated in the entire book of Acts may still exist even though I have not observed. This is not the part of the phenomenon of speaking in unknown tongue observed in Corinth only! Yes, He is our helper and comforter, certainly not a groaner!

Why not? I hear people make that claim, and I don't agree. I need but one verse to tell me something to believe it. No wonder thousands of denominations have sprung up at nooks and corners of the world! A kind of Babel condition imposed by God for the deviated! I could make the same claim concerning the way you come up with your doctrine. You don't like something, so you claim it means something other than what scripture actually says. If I did that throughout the Word of God, I certainly could come up with strange doctrines. Where it says that God so loved the World, I could simply say it really means he hated the world, or that world means the planet and not the human race. I have no reason to accept anything you have said, because in some cases it contradicts the plain meaning of the text, and in others, you simply can't prove your point. It is nothing but theories you have devised in your own mind, like the notion Paul was discouraging speaking in tongues, when he did no such thing. The answer is very simple. Paul desired greater gifts to be sought! (1 Corinthians 12:31) Question... KT you're saying we shouldn't base our theology on one verse of the Bible in red and here you're doing the same thing orange with 1 Cor. 12:31. How does this make sense? God bless, GE There is a lot of weight behind the one I have quoted. My OP is not based on one verse against another. In the course of discussion involving several verses, I have indicated one verse that may answer the particual question that was asked.

Your interpretation is wrong, as it is contrary to what the verse in Romans says. Lets examine it closely. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Romans 8:26,27 The passage itself tells us it is the Holy Spirit who is making intercession with groanings. To accept what you said, I have to reject what the scripture itself says. The understanding is the breakdown of human language to form proper request for the need-> apparent in the urgings of The Holy Spirit within us... because of this inability in us God councils within His Godhead the needs and arrangement of answers to the good of all yet that communication appears to us as groaning... Love, Steven Considering the preceedings verses wherein groanings are attributed to created beings like animals and people(vs. 22 & 23), our interpretation should be groanings of us that we cannot express in words. Do you think the Holy Spirit will be speechless like mortal men? That is a preposterous thinking, I suppose!

Sorry, you appear to ignore the role of the Holy Spirit and trying to understand the plain meaning of the text instead of its intrinsic spiritual value. When someone says greater there should be something lower than that. When Paul says greater, he is discouraging to go for lower-end things. That is obvious. Notice how Paul suddenly jumps from gift to the fruit of the Spirit. Here he advises the top best, that is, love! The last one listed in the fruit is self-control. This is a must compared to the end gifts mentioned, that is, speaking in tongue and interpretation.

This is a very good point brother. It may be worthwhile to consider Gospel of John 3:1-21 and especially John 4:21-24 before this deduction.

Good insight Paul! I am in agreement with you almost. Many are misguided in this aspect. For that reason I started another thread "" in the same division of the Forum. Would you like to take a look at that?

Epistles are to be applied to us considering the context. What is important he has repeated. What was not found he has not explicitly mentioned. Paul was at Corinth for one and half years and many were baptized during his presence. No speaking of unknown tongue was observed. There is one and only absolute truth. If you believe in different interpretations and accept them all, I think, you are going off track! Wow! How on earth did you get that out of what I said? I was speaking of the varying forms of praise and worship we see IN THE SCRIPTURES (not one mention of accepting multiple interpretations as equal or all true) Sorry Paul. I am yet to get familiar with posting in this Forum. Quoting was also causing problem. I think my replies are getting mixed up with other postings!