27 minutes ago, Josheb said:

You left out the Cals and Arms both trying to convince themselves of their own salvation and both being deceived.  

How about we take a look at diligence and examination? 

Peter wrote quite bit more on the matter than is contained in the single verse the op quotes. He starts out asserting we (already) have everything we need and can participate in the divine nature! That's an extraordinary claim, imo; one that begs what follows because it prompts us to ask ourselves (examination) "Do I believe what I just read?" and I think what he then writes is in anticipation of that very question. He then pins the entire experience on our sanctification and our propensity to forget the very core and profound reality. 

Whatdya think?

"You left out the Cals and Arms both trying to convince themselves of their own salvation and both being deceived. "

Brother, are  you actually serious? From my opening statement, you have somehow twisted it into this? I have no idea how to convince you otherwise. You have fixated on wanting to take offense and it is growing in size, and none of it is true.  Can you not just take my word for it that I meant no ill will? Please read my post I just made. I hope it will let you rest on the matter. 

blessings, Josh

Gids

11 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Wrong again. I found a factual error without taking any personal offense. I also found a gross internal contradiction within the op whereby a large portion of Christendom was treated derisively (whether intended or not) in a post about diligence, fruit-bearing, and life-examination. I did that without taking any personal offense, too. 

I understand these concepts may be new to you and some of the others but it is really quite possible to remain kind and patient and forbearing when pointing out errors in what we read. It really is possible to note a factual or rational error and not be personally offended. 

You should try it sometime. 

 

The op states the whole topic of Calvinism vs Arminianism is a smokescreen of the enemy and it implies those engaging in that topic do so to convince themselves of their salvation AND are deceived! 

That is what is stated. 

I have brought the matter to your attention just as Matthew 5 directs me to do. I provided evidence to prove the errors, both from the writings of Calvin and Arminius and from scripture. I have done so in a manner consistent with 1 Cor. 13:4-7. I have done so several times just as Titus 3 tells me to do. Having gotten nowhere I have moved on, just as Titus 3 tells me to do. I have practiced diligence, fruit-bearing, and examination, thereby demonstrating the very things the op is discussing. Several others here have noted the same problem. The matter has been established by two or more witnesses. 

It's not personal, Gideon, and I feel fairly confident everyone here who has agreed with me did so for your edification, in hopes and trusts of positive change, believing the best about you, and doing so such that all in observance might also benefit. You clearly will have nothing to do with any of it. I noted the misspelling was corrected so I know you have it within you to self-correct your own errors. 

 

 

Whether any offense was intended or not and whether any offense is taken or not that's a pretty crappy thing to say about those in the body of Christ. It is also unnecessary because the op could have been posted AND discussed without ever mentioning Calvinism or Arminianism. Furthermore, when it comes to diligence, fruit-bearing, and examination, three of the concerns stipulated in the op both Calvin AND Arminius and their respective soteriologies are in fairly uniform agreement, so the sentences aren't just mean and unnecessary; they are factually and rationally incorrect. 

And at this point you're not going to get any other response from me unless or until the errors is corrected. I recommend either deleting the two sentences in question or rewording them to better reflect the kindness you believe you possess, better reflect the agreement Calvinism and Arminianism have with the rest of the op, and simply to be more accurate factually. But you do what you want. You can continue to accuse me of wrong motives and intent but I will simply copy and paste these last two paragraphs until things change. 

Let me show you. 

 

Whether any offense was intended or not and whether any offense is taken or not that's a pretty crappy thing to say about those in the body of Christ. It is also unnecessary because the op could have been posted AND discussed without ever mentioning Calvinism or Arminianism. Furthermore, when it comes to diligence, fruit-bearing, and examination, three of the concerns stipulated in the op both Calvin AND Arminius and their respective soteriologies are in fairly uniform agreement, so the sentences aren't just mean and unnecessary; they are factually and rationally incorrect. 

 

 

And at this point you're not going to get any other response from me unless or until the errors is corrected. I recommend either deleting the two sentences in question or rewording them to better reflect the kindness you believe you possess, better reflect the agreement Calvinism and Arminianism have with the rest of the op, and simply to be more accurate factually. But you do what you want. You can continue to accuse me of wrong motives and intent but I will simply copy and paste these last two paragraphs until things change.

 

 

Whether any offense was intended or not and whether any offense is taken or not that's a pretty crappy thing to say about those in the body of Christ. It is also unnecessary because the op could have been posted AND discussed without ever mentioning Calvinism or Arminianism. Furthermore, when it comes to diligence, fruit-bearing, and examination, three of the concerns stipulated in the op both Calvin AND Arminius and their respective soteriologies are in fairly uniform agreement, so the sentences aren't just mean and unnecessary; they are factually and rationally incorrect. 

 

 

And at this point you're not going to get any other response from me unless or until the errors is corrected. I recommend either deleting the two sentences in question or rewording them to better reflect the kindness you believe you possess, better reflect the agreement Calvinism and Arminianism have with the rest of the op, and simply to be more accurate factually. But you do what you want. You can continue to accuse me of wrong motives and intent but I will simply copy and paste these last two paragraphs until things change.

 

 

Whether any offense was intended or not and whether any offense is taken or not that's a pretty crappy thing to say about those in the body of Christ. It is also unnecessary because the op could have been posted AND discussed without ever mentioning Calvinism or Arminianism. Furthermore, when it comes to diligence, fruit-bearing, and examination, three of the concerns stipulated in the op both Calvin AND Arminius and their respective soteriologies are in fairly uniform agreement, so the sentences aren't just mean and unnecessary; they are factually and rationally incorrect. 

 

 

And at this point you're not going to get any other response from me unless or until the errors is corrected. I recommend either deleting the two sentences in question or rewording them to better reflect the kindness you believe you possess, better reflect the agreement Calvinism and Arminianism have with the rest of the op, and simply to be more accurate factually. But you do what you want. You can continue to accuse me of wrong motives and intent but I will simply copy and paste these last two paragraphs until things change.

That's all you'll get from me in this op until I read a change in the opening of the op because I have no reason to trust anything you say. Your personal views on Calvinism or Arminianism are inconsequential to me because a profound lack of knowledge bordering on sheer ignorance was demonstrated with the op's claims. And I doubt you want this op to turn into a moratorium on your views of Calvinism and Arminianism. Would that not be self-defeating? 

 

So I'm moving on now. 

When I have time I'll post other replies to the rest of the op because there's a lot of good content there and there's some stuff worth further clarifying and a few things needing some correction. 

Brother, I understand if you must move on. May God be with you. 

blessings, 

Gids

1 hour ago, David1701 said:

My summary of your post does not mean that I agree with all of it.  I disagree with point 1); I have not come across any situation in which point 3) is necessary; and I disagree with point 7), since believing in and on the Lord are synonymous.

1) The Calvinism vs Arminianism debate being a smokescreen from the devil

3) Bewaring of grabbing doctrines to assure us of our salvation

7) Making a distinction between believing on the Lord and believing in him

1) Do you think the devil loves to see Christians bicker about whether musical  instruments are allowed in church? Infant baptism? Following the sabbath? OSAS? How many change their minds? Christian doctrinecis profitable IF it leads to a deeper abiding. If it does not, what is its purpose? 

The smokescreen I refer to is satan's appeal to our intellect grabbing hold of doctrine..... any doctrine..... rather than our heart crying out for wisdom so thwt we can walk pleasing to God, growing up into Him in all things. 

3) Doctrines are not to give us assurance, but are to lead us to Christ who then assures us by indwelling  us, causing us to obey Him and to become fruitful. 

This leads directly to #7. Believing in Him can be done by demons. Believing ON Him requires us to stop believing ON us. It is very possible to believing in Him with our heads, yet our hearts may not even be in the equation. Faith is not an exercise in mental assent with our brains. Faith is a gift God gives to a yielded heart. 

blessings, 

Gids

1 hour ago, leah777 said:

Seeking clarity is not taking offense.

All of the true body of Christ are already overcomers. The Holy Spirit is there in each individual. Collectively they make up the body of Christ: the Church.

There appears to be a confusing of the difference between those claiming to be in the body of Christ, and those who are born again Christians.

Those who have not overcome are not Christians. They are not part of the Church.

May I ask you, Leah. Were the Laodecians overcomers? Were the Laodecians the true church? God counseled them and addressed them as His body and yet urged them as to their need to repent and to overcome. If this be the case, then what many are believing, that we are overcomers even if we are overcome by sin is a false  understanding of the truth. 

Was Paul walking in victory as an  overcomer in Romans 7? No. He was imprisoned by sin and self. He did not pat himself on the back, telling himself he was an overcomer, He cried out to God to deliver him from his body of death....his old nature. And God did! 

blessings to you, Leah,

Gideon

2 hours ago, David1701 said:

Walking as an overcomer means that your life is characterised by faith in the Lord that works by love; and your faith results in good works.

I would also appreciate it, if you would answer my other recent post to you.  Here it is again, in case you missed it.

I'd like to clear something up, Gideon.  Yes, or no answers will suffice, unless you feel the need to qualify the answer.

1) Do you believe that the Calvinism vs Arminianism debate is something intended to conceal, confuse or obscure?

2) Do you believe that such discussions are from the devil?

What you posted is worded so that the answers are "Yes." and "Yes."; but I'd like to know if that's really what you meant.

I would be glad to. 

1) Not at all. The discussion of who election works is a worthy discussion. However, with that said, I do feel like we can fall into a trap of majoring on the minors, and miss the more important task of examining ourselves whether we truly be in the faith, where Christ's character is  grown in us. 

The 'smokescreen' I referred to is not one created by those discussing and defending their point of view, but is subtly piped in by our enemy.

This then leads directly to your second question. 

2) Do I believe such discussion are from the devil? Absolutely not. As I just stated, discussions like this can be profitable, but can also lead us into a place where we are content simply knowing about God rather than knowing Him. Does that make sense?

 The devil loves to get us so involved with our theology and doctrines, and  he most likely enjoys seeing the endless debates that change no one. This can also be said about other often debated doctrines. 

Could I have substituted the battle over faith without works vs. faith shown by works? Absolutely. The truth is, when I made mu OP, I had just read a post on Calvinism and it was fresh in my mind. I hope this persuades those thinking I am anti-doctrine or anti-posters who discuss doctrine that this was not my intent at all. 

However, concerning our desire for others to see why our doctrine is THE doctrine, we seem to have arrived in our Christianity where good doctrine is the ultimate goal, rather than good doctrine being the stepping stone to leading us to a deeper place in God where we truly are walking in palpable victory.

Men get their doctrine down, drive an immovable stake, defend it at all costs, and very few, once they think they understand correct doctrine, seem to ever change directions or go on to walking as an overcomer, full of fruits that display Christ.  I have known a few, but they are rare. Unfortunately, for many, if not most, they never seem to get to the point they are abiding in the vine, where they do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. They think correct doctrine is the goal, so once they think they have "it", they stop seeking. 

That fact should give us great pause. The reality that such is not the case, and we are as a whole content right where we are should give us even more pause. If abiding in the vibe is possible, then victory over the influence of the world, our fleshly nature and the devil himself is as well. God did not give us this hope as a  carrot on a stick, providing us with a target to aim for but never hit. 

If Paul told us it is actually possible to bring every thought into obedience, then surely this includes our actions as well, amen?  We must ask ourselves "Is our human condition an excuse for not walking with sin under our feet or not?" If so, then the promises of God can truthfully be chucked out the window with yesterday's leftovers, for no matter how wonderful they are, our fallen nature will keep us resorting to using grace as an excuse for failure, rather than our reason for why we can actually overcome. Grace is far bigger than we have realized..... but we are about to discover how amazing and thorough God's salvation is. 

I hope this helps.

blessings to you, David.

Gids 

1 hour ago, Alive said:

Gideon--could you also clarify who the 'we' is when you write? This will also help much.

Let me see if I can help here. The "we" is the term I use for the entire body of Christ. when I male a statement as to the "we", it is not meant as an attack on every single saint. We are one body. As a whole, we are pretty much divided, and few are walking in the. glorious loverty of the children of God. 

Does my use of the word "we" then  apply to all? As individuals, no. Each one of us is walking at a certain level. Are the majority walking in victory? No. Are some? Thank God yes. However, generally, I have found that these are in no way offended by the use of the word "we", for they too see our lack as a whole, and long to see it changed? 

Which brings me to the next point. As a body, we are all in this together. If the body is weak, the one who is walking in victory is still weak, collectively. We are not lone rangers. We are ONE body 

If one reads the words of exhortation I offer, and reads the word "we" and their hearts do not see that it applies to them, then praise God. To these, I ask forbearance, that they do not take it as an insult, for it is never meant to be such. 

There is a verse in the old testament, saying to paraphrase that Gods blessibgs are withheld because every man looks after his own house and no own is looking after the house of the Lord. WE are the house of the Lord, and overall, we are sickly, divided, defeated and in shambles.  Are some better off than others? Absolutely. Hower, we must fear a mentality that says "I am ok, even if you are not, so it is no. big deal." No, it IS a big deal because it is a big deal to God.  

We must look at the overall health of the church and let the weight of the lack of overcoming in our body as a whole drive us to prayer, to cry out   "Let not the heathen rule over thy people to bring them to reproach."

We are in this together. If I am doing fine, am I still part of the "we" that needs revival? Oh, yes. Absolutely. I am most definitely in the "we" of which I speak. 

I pray this helps, dear brother. 

blessings to you, Alive

Gideon. 
 

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

The direct manner is the only way, friend. Inferences are subject to error, don't you agree?

If the supposed inference is explained by the poster as not meaning what the reader inferred that it meant, and the reader continues to infer the meaning as an insult, it is no longer a language issue but an issue of taking offense even when there was none. Can we not walk together in agreement on this matter?

Gideon

33 minutes ago, branchesofHim said:

Calvinism, Armenianism, Lutherism, Satanism, ..... whatever the ism may be is pointless and irrelevant to "canonized" scripture ....... Shalom.

The spell check police will get you. Arminianism. You are welcome. LOL. 

Gids

41 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Based on what the OP says, it is about:

1) The Calvinism vs Arminianism debate being a smokescreen from the devil

2) Being diligent to make our calling and election sure

3) Bewaring of grabbing doctrines to assure us of our salvation

4) Diligence being an important part of our assurance of salvation

5) Examining ourselves to see whether or not we are in the faith

6) Learning how to abide in Christ

7) Making a distinction between believing on the Lord and believing in him

8) What to do, if we don't see the mark of Jesus on our thoughts and deeds

I am searching for a clapping emoji. LOL. Here, this oughta do. ?

blessings to you, David

Gids

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

The evidence proves otherwise. 

There are several subsequent posts here that having nothing to do with the opening statement and none of them have been engaged. NONE of them.

I agree. They have not. You have taken offense when none was meant. I explained that. You still demand a retraction, as opposed to letting it go. I have shared again the gist  of my original post, and you have remained silent on that, ignoring it and instead still concentrating on perceiving an insult when none was meant. 

What do I believe about the Calvin vs the Arminian debate? I do believe that multitudes have debated back and forth on who is called, who is not, instead of seeking God for the assurance that comes from Him.

How is that assurance given? How do we KNOW we have passed from death to life? By the fruits that such abiding promises to bring forth. 

"And hereby we know that we know Him: if we keep His commandments. He that saith, “I know Him,” and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him.

1 John 2:3-4 

Now this immediately puts us on edge, feeling we are being pulled backwards into legalism. But that is not the  case at all. If God has promised that under His new covenant that He will cause us to walk in obedience, and He has (Ezekiel 36), then our obedience is not a result of our strenuous efforts to earn or keep our salvation, but simply God doing what He promised He would do in us amen? If a man or woman is walking with the Lord, obedience will follow. Fruits will follow. 

This brings me back to the gist of my OP. If we are finding this is not the case in our walk with the Lord,, if obedience lacking in our lives, if we have but few fruits to show after walking in the Lord for even many years, something is wrong. 

 We are forced to try to assure ourselves doctrinally that we are saved, even when our lives are not testifying to God dwelling in us. We can read that there is no condemnation, but how many saints battle feeling condemnation every single day. Our solution? Read the scripture again. There is a better way. 

There is an answer to all this, but how few want to seek it. Many would rather tussle over scriptures and have endless unprofitable arguments, rather than admit that God promises we will overcome darkness in our lives because we have been made light, and that if we are not overcoming darkness, a piece of our puzzle is missing. Thank God a change is coming. 

I understand that if whatI am sharing is the truth. it is not a pleasant place to find oneself. For some who have served the Lord for years, it is a hard thing to admit they are missing something, and the something is BIG. I get it.

But...... when a man or woman gets desperate to truly walk in holiness as an overcomer, victorious over the world, the flesh snd the devil, and realizes as well that they simply cannot do it in their current circumstances, they are finally ready to receive from God the power to walk as the new creatures they already are. 

Being right as to calvinism or arminianism does nothing to help one walk in victory.  God must live inside us as new creatures, causing us to obey, for us to see that accomplished.

We are told that for two to walk together they must be agreed. Is it not time we finally agreed with God that we ARE new creatures? And if that is true, satan has no more authority over us. He has no hook into us any longer. We are finally and forever hooked to God. And when we "make our tree good" by our declaration of faith that the old us truly did die, and that since we are no longer in the flesh, we owe it NOTHING, joy, peace and the full assurance of faith will flood our souls. 

blessings, dear brother

Gideon

4 hours ago, David1701 said:

Yes, of course I have.

Heb. 4:1-3 (KJV)

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

The preaching of the gospel does not benefit those who do not believe it.  They remain unsaved and under God's condemnation.

What relevance is this supposed to have, for those who are already saved?

Everyone who has been born of God is an overcomer (as I've already proved); therefore, everyone who does not overcome, has not been born of God and is still unsaved, no matter how religious he might be.

The epistles are one means (not the only one) that God uses, by the Holy Spirit, to produce that overcoming in our lives.

Everyone who has been born again, walks in the benefit of that truth (some more, some less; but all are characterised by being overcomers).

I urge you, Gideon, to recognise the difference between those who are born again, and those who are merely religious.  EVERYONE who has been born again is an overcomer and walks with God.  It is real for all of us.

Of course, there is always room for improvement (it's called sanctification and it takes a lifetime); but don't suggest that born again Christians are not overcomers, because that would be a lie.

The more intensely we seek God, to become like Jesus and to please him; the more we spend time in his presence and in reading the Bible, the more we are sanctified and the more fruit we bear.  I think most, or all, of us know this, Gideon.

This is an interesting post with lots to discuss. Would it first be possible for us to agree on what walking as an overcomer looks like? Can you define for me how you think it looks? Then, once we get on the same page wording-wise, we can dig into what you shared, and I see some opportunities for some great dialogue. Thanks David.

blessings,

Gideon 

7 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Great! If that is true then solution is simple and the matter easily resolved: just reword or remove the first and third statements in the op. Or better yet, say something nice and kind about "the whole of Calvinism vs Arminianism because as far as the subsequent content of the op goes they are in complete agreement. It's a real simple, easily accomplished real solution and you've refused it. I've even offered to remove my dissent when that happens and again I've been repeatedly met with refusal. 

So you can say "It was not to disparage...," but posting the belief the whole of Calvinism vs Arminianism is of the enemy is in fact disparaging. So is implying we're all deceived.

If that was unintended then fix it. 

You are determined to make this a fight, and I will say again, your taking offense is missing the point of this post. God loves all of His children, Calvinists, those who cling to Arminianism, and those who do not even know what these terms represent. He longs to bring every one of them into full liberty from the grip of sin and self ruling the roost. 

That is the purpose of my OP, not to disparage as you have stated many times, but to bless. If any are still walking in bondage to sin, and find satan never flees when they try to resist, then something is wrong, not with the truth of the gospel but with our understanding of it. 

When any of God's beloved children read these words, they can either get offended that my post somehow seems to insinuate that their understanding may be flawed, or, they may fall before God and cry out in prayer..

  "I am your child but I am still missing the HOW of walking in fruitfulness and holiness. I cannot walk in defeat any longer.  I want my life to bring honor to your name. Show me what I lack and set me free indeed as you defined it.... free from committing sin.  Please, dear Father,  do as you have promised and CAUSE ME to walk as your obedient, joy filled child. Amen"

God will resist the proud, but will hear the heart cry of any hungry child wanting bread. Of that we can be assured. 

blessings, dear brother

Gids

35 minutes ago, David1701 said:

I have a very simple message for you, Gideon, from the word of God: if you are born again, then you ARE an overcomer.

1 John 5:3,4 (ESV)

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world— our faith.

Have you ever read the scripture that tells us

".. but it did not profit them not being mixed with faith in them that heard it"?

The very answer is included in the scripture you offered... and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

Was the church of Laodecia walking as overcomers? A man walking as an overcomer, when he is tempted, resists satan steadfast in the faith. The result? He does not yield, his shield of faith quenches the arrow meant to cause him to fall, and satan flees from him. 

If we were automatically overcomers, why have the epistles at all? Why encourage us to holiness, to keep our bodies under. Positionally, we are all new creatures. Experientially, how few there are found walking in the benefit of that truth. 

I urge all who are reading this thread, to honestly examine your walk to see if, practically speaking, you are walking with your shield of faith actually protecting you, keeping you from falling, causing you to walk in victory over the world, the flesh and the devil. If not, God desires to make it real for you. 

It is when we tire of assuring ourselves of what God declares, and long for it to become our actual reality, that we shall escape the land of 'healed only slightly', and discover what it is to actually walk in the reality and fullness of 'the glorious liberty of the children of God'. 

blessings to you, David

Gideon
 

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

In all my many years arguing soteriology as both an Arm and a Cal I rarely have I ever heard or read one tell the other they were not saved. Worthy has a Soteriology board and I perused the posts. I will concede I did not read every post in every op but neither did I find posters telling each other they were not saved. So at best we've got another red herring. 

I've already posted several verses pertaining to what scripture says about doctrine. Our calling does entail getting our doctrine right. Paul wrote the Corinthians appealing to them not to disagree but be "united in mind and conviction," but he also wrote, "For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you." 

Perhaps, Gideon, you have an op planned on how to discern those approved by God apart from getting our doctrine right.

 

 

You seem determined to cherry-pick points from my OP to argue about, while seemingly strangely quiet about the main singular point of my post. 

Let me clarify for you. 

It was not to disparage either Calvinism or Aminianism.

It was not to disparage seeking to have correct doctrine. 

So what exactly was I trying to get across? 

It was to point out that having Christ in us is supposed to bring forth Christ's character in us. This is how we KNOW we are in Him, because we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Instead, We bring forth spiritual fruits. 

In some, I suspect their immediate reaction to this is most likely outrage, thinking I am preaching legalism, and thus casting doubt upon whether or not we are saved.

Why do our minds go there? Simple. It is because we somehow think that not sinning and bringing forth fruits that reveal Christ's character in us are OUR responsibility. We think, erroneously, that we are to be our own potters. Boy, are we wrong. ?

Why do we continue to languish in sin? Why are there so few fruits in our lives identifying us as His children? Why does the world see us as a bunch of religious hypocrites? The Bible tells us. We are healed, but only slightly. 

Listen. God does nothing half way. He wants to save us to the uttermost. He not only has promised to forgive us, but also to change us, deliver us, free us, transform us, to sanctify us wholly, body, soul and spirit. . He wants to make us branches in Him full of Spiritual fruits. And here is the kicker. HE wants to do it, for He is the only one who can! 

Do I talk about the great lack in the church to disparage my brothers and sisters in the Lord? No! I do so for one reason.... to bless God's children in ways they cannot yet even imagine, but in order to do so,  they must finally be brought to see that something is lacking, something is blocking their transformation. 

Yes, we are new creatures. Yes, we have been delivered from the power of darkness. But if these truths are not actually being manifested in our lives, something is wrong. A roadblock is preventing God from making us overcomers, but until that bothers us,  and we search it out, identify it and remove it, we cannot proceed into the fullness of what God has for us. 

Look, His promises are meant to WORK! Until we believe that, we doom ourselves to lives lived without ever discovering the FREE INDEED Jesus has for each one of us. The fullness of grace's power is far more than we have understood. Yes, grace forgives. But grace also promises to  change us and make us actual overcomers. 

So why, if that is the case, isn't it working? Why are we not being changed and delivered from the power of the enemy?  One reason.

The promises work as we believe them.

Until we get sick and tired of living in defeat with closeness to Jesus only felt in rare instances, such as a great worship service, and our hearts  cry out for the faith that moves His promises  into action, we will remain healed only slightly. But God has assured us that He will respond when we cry out to Him with our whole hearts. You see, even this faith must come from Him. 

Some are ready even now to cry out to Him for such faith. Some will do so later. Some, as I said, will staunchly refuse to believe that God can and will deliver us from evil in this life, content with religious knowledge about God, rather than being possessed wholly by the Lord and seeing their lives changed in ways they simply thought impossible. 

I have no idea who is who. Each one of us must search our own hearts and respond accordingly. My prayer and hope is that all discover the rest that remains for the people of God. 

blessings, 

Gideon

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

I've already addressed the opening line. Here we find a curious statement implying "grabbing hold of a doctrine" isn't a good thing, or that doctrines are "used to convince us of our salvation." I'll bet everyone here is convinced of their salvation because they've come face-to-face with both God and their own sinfulness in one way or another and they did so before they knew much if any doctrine. 

So, once again, everybody gets thrown under the buss with an un-evidenced claim. 

So let's see what scripture says about "doctrine," okay?

Matthew 15:1-9 ESV
"Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,  “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.”  He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?  For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’  But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,”  he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God.  You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:  “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;  in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

So we see Jesus implying doctrines are good but men may teach their own commands as doctrines. I'm sure you've all read that passage abused by others to say "doctrines of men," and not commands of men taught as doctrine. 

Ephesians 4:11-16
"And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,  for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;  until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.  As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;  but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,  from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love."

So here, again, we find it isn't doctrine in an of itself that is bad, but the trickery of men. Does "beware grabbing hold of doctrine to convince ourselves of our salvation" sound like trickery? I'll leave that to the reader to decide. 

Paul wrote to Timothy late in Paul's ministry about those who strange or deceitful doctrines and he specified the kinds of doctrines of which he was referring. He concluded his comments with this: 

1 Timothy 4:6
"In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following." 

Titus 2:1-15
"But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.  Older men are to be temperate, dignified, sensible, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance.  Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good,  so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children,  to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.  Likewise urge the young men to be sensible;  in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified,  sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us.  Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,  not pilfering, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.  For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,  instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,  looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,  who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.  These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you."

And the simple fact of scripture is, as another poster well noted, there is only one body of many parts. Some here have an affinity for doctrine. Other's not so much. The ear cannot say of the foot "I have no need of you," and in the absence of any evidence to support the comment to say somegrab at doctrine to convince themselves of their salvation is another piece of evidence indicating it is the accuser's heart that needs examination, and not those who debate unresolved doctrine -especially when both sides of that debate completely agree on the need for diligence and examination!

 

 

.

Correct doctrine brings forth the promises of God revealed in our  lives. As I  have stated previously, if it is not, are we not to examine ourselves and our understanding of the truth to find out what is missing and causing us to live lives less than what Christ has promised us?

If in our resisting temptation, we never see satan fleeing, when God said he would, should that not give us pause? 

If we lack the fruits Christ promises to abundantly grow in our lives, and we are not new converts but  those who have followed the truth for years, do we just keep on as we have been, or is it time we  fall on our knees and seek the face of our Master as to why we are not being sanctified wholly, body, soul and spirit? 

To get upset when someone brings this to our attention is not solving anything, but is simply a distraction from the enemy as to what needs to happen. God promises to deliver us and to cause us to walk as overcomers, victorious over the world, the flesh and the devil. Do we want that, no matter the cost to us personally?  

I believe there is a small but growing group of believers tired of making excuses for their continued captivity to sin and self. They long to be holy, and are not satisfied with "positional holiness". They want the manifested character of the Son to be inprinted on their hearts, affecting how they interact with the world. I am simply one of those people. 

I have stated it before but it bares repeating. Some will soon awake to the how of holiness. Others will follow later. Some will never awaken to God's high  calling nor experience His hand working all those things in us as the master potter. 

I do not know who fits in each group. I accuse no one. Therefore, I will continue to simply share what God asked me to share and let the Spirit do what the Spirit does..... set men free who are willing to lose their lives to find His in them. 

be blessed dear brother, 

Gideon

18 hours ago, TheBlade said:

With out faith its impossible to please God. I have seen this kind of thing happen over and over for so many years now. Any time something bad is going on.. its either God is mad or judging or JESUS is coming any second! Or the Antichrist will pop up any moment. God always uses peace and He does not speak negative.

...... We were given His word. He will NEVER EVER go against that word. He spoke it and it has to return to him.. never void. Faith works both ways.. keep speaking negativity and adding GOD in some way to it.. you will receive what you have spoken for you believe it!  The word talks about things going on in the world and how it will never touch you. Satan comes to kill steal and destroy. God came to give life and give it more abundantly.

God puts someone in office that stand up for HIM! What did you expect the enemy to do? And this testing? What have you been doing all your life not living for Him? Don't you know Him? Does not He know you? What is it He has to test? These things come because some are not close to Him. So you don't WAIT till something bad happens.. you repent.. Father put me back on the right path.. thats IT!

Oh.. helping the poor.. praise GOD. We do know millions have been jobless longer then I have been alive. And some with no homes again longer then I have been alive. Shall we talk about other 3rd world nations? See the Gospel is being preached in the USA by 96% of believers. There are only 6% out there in the world. So to help the poor you don't hand them some money and .. see ya! No.. you keep helping them till they are back on their feet. Yeah.. most of US US US don't want to pay the price.

"Something bad is coming on the earth.. but before that something wonderful is about to happen. Watch and pray watch and pray watch and pray be ready". I don't share this much.. it was told to me in late 2008.. as I came back to Him. I KNOW what it MIGHT sound like.. but I don't THINK anything. I just share what He said.

Your Father is GOD.. He is IN YOU! There is nothing you can't do.. it maybe dark in the world.. and they are suffering.. but not you! They will come to YOU because what happened NEVER touched you! <---I've seen it. Go for it.. show GOD just how far your faith goes! And watch HIM move! For FAITH moves GOD! Pleases Him. Because.. HE gets ALL the glory..

 

Do you believe a faith-filled Christian can end up homeless with a hungry family to feed and nothing to feed them with? 

blessings, 

Gids

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Then correct the opening statement. 

And don't make the conversation about me. 
Or you.
Because when incorrect statements about Calvinism and Arminianism aren't unnecessarily made there's a lot of good content in the op to discuss.

Since there's no need to make the conversation about Calvinism or Arminianism (notice the spelling) the solution is simple: delete or reword the opening sentence so as to remove the problem. Consider going beyond mere deletion and try posting something nice, affirming, and or edifying Cals and Arms instead. You do that, Gideon, and I'll follow suit and "nt" all my posts critiquing the op. That seem fair to you? One sentence from you; two whole  posts from me.

Yes, and when you, Gideon, trash others you are not abiding in the vine! That kind of abiding is demonstrating by not avoiding the error and self-correcting, making a faithful and visible effort to amend the situation. As I noted to another poster this op instantly became an object lesson where you get to actually prove what you've posted. 

 

Since there's no need to make the conversation about Calvinism or Arminianism (notice the spelling) the solution is simple: delete or reword the opening sentence so as to remove the problem. Consider going beyond mere deletion and try posting something nice, affirming, and or edifying Cals and Arms instead.  You do that, Gideon, and I'll follow suit and "nt" all my posts critiquing the op. That seem fair to you? One sentence from you; two whole  posts from me.

Your vision is skewed, dear brother. You declare me to be trashing other brothers about not abiding in tbe vine. Is what I stated scriptural or not? Does God indeed promise that if we abide in the vine, we will not fulfill the lustsof the flesh? Yes or no?

If He does, then what have I to apologize for?  I want all of Christ's children to walk in the fullness of their salvation, but there are many who would rather take offense at the slightest hint of a part of God's truth not being walked in, and throw their entire attempts at discrediting me, rather than falling on their face before God, crying out as Paul did for our faithful  God to deliver them from themselves and their weakness and defeat. 

If your goal is simply to discredit me, Save yourself the trouble, lol. I am nothing... less than nothing without walking in the new nature He abundantly supplies. Why do you rail against what I share with such vehemence? Do you not want to see your brothers and sisters  walk in real victory? I do, and that is the sole purpose of my posts. 

The fly in the ointment for accepting what I share though, is that in order to cry out for victory, real overcoming of satan's many arrows, one must admit they need such a walk, that their current place may afford them salvation, but does not arm them enough to resist satan steadfast in the faith and send him running. Hunger for deliverance and for walking pleasing to God in true obedience is not optional. 

Real manifested overcoming, as well as true bearing of fruits pf the Spirit.... these are our birthrights, dear Josh, nothing less. May all who hunger and thirst for abiding in the vine where they do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh call out to Him, believing that holy walks are exactly what He longs to give us.if we will but ask.  

blessings to you,

Gids

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Then correct the opening statement. 

And don't make the conversation about me. 
Or you.
Because when incorrect statements about Calvinism and Arminianism aren't unnecessarily made there's a lot of good content in the op to discuss.

Since there's no need to make the conversation about Calvinism or Arminianism (notice the spelling) the solution is simple: delete or reword the opening sentence so as to remove the problem. Consider going beyond mere deletion and try posting something nice, affirming, and or edifying Cals and Arms instead. You do that, Gideon, and I'll follow suit and "nt" all my posts critiquing the op. That seem fair to you? One sentence from you; two whole  posts from me.

Yes, and when you, Gideon, trash others you are not abiding in the vine! That kind of abiding is demonstrating by not avoiding the error and self-correcting, making a faithful and visible effort to amend the situation. As I noted to another poster this op instantly became an object lesson where you get to actually prove what you've posted. 

 

Since there's no need to make the conversation about Calvinism or Arminianism (notice the spelling) the solution is simple: delete or reword the opening sentence so as to remove the problem. Consider going beyond mere deletion and try posting something nice, affirming, and or edifying Cals and Arms instead.  You do that, Gideon, and I'll follow suit and "nt" all my posts critiquing the op. That seem fair to you? One sentence from you; two whole  posts from me.

What correction is needed? There  you go again looking for an argument. I simply refuse to join your efforts to do so. There are bigger issues at atake. Correct me if  I am wrong, but love is not supposed to  be easily offended, is it? 

You have missed the entire point of the OP, blinded to things my post is actually about. Why not center on those things? As to abiding in the vine, the evidence is not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. I stand by my assertion. Few, very few are yetcwalking there, based upon what God says. 

blessings, 

Gids

21 hours ago, Josheb said:

The problem is both Calvin AND Arminius taught the need for diligence to make our calling and election sure.

From Calvin's "Institutes...." 

"For, first of all, the pious mind does not devise for itself any kind of God, but looks alone to the one true God; nor does it feign for him any character it pleases, but is contented to have him in the character in which he manifests himself always guarding, with the utmost diligences against transgressing his will, and wandering, with daring presumptions from the right path. He by whom God is thus known perceiving how he governs all things, confides in him as his guardian and protector, and casts himself entirely upon his faithfulness,--perceiving him to be the source of every blessing, if he is in any strait or feels any want, he instantly recurs to his protection and trusts to his aid,--persuaded that he is good and merciful, he reclines upon him with sure confidence, and doubts not that, in the divine clemency, a remedy will be provided for his every time of need,--acknowledging him as his Father and his Lords he considers himself bound to have respect to his authority in all things, to reverence his majesty aim at the advancement of his glory, and obey his commands,--regarding him as a just judge, armed with severity to punish crimes, he keeps the Judgment-seat always in his view. Standing in awe of it, he curbs himself, and fears to provoke his anger. Nevertheless, he is not so terrified by an apprehension of Judgment as to wish he could withdraw himself, even if the means of escape lay before him; nay, he embraces him not less as the avenger of wickedness than as the rewarder of the righteous; because he perceives that it equally appertains to his glory to store up punishment for the one, and eternal life for the other. Besides, it is not the mere fear of punishment that restrains him from sin. Loving and revering God as his father, honouring and obeying him as his master, although there were no hell, he would revolt at the very idea of offending him."

That's like five pages into the first volume. Big Fail. Seriously: Calvin wrote a commentary on 2 Peter! and it would have taken you all of seventeen seconds to track it down and find out what he wrote about 2 Peter 1:10!

And Arminius has an article (XXXV) in which the header reads, "The whole of that in which we appear before God, justifies us. But we appear before God, not only by Faith, but also by Works. Therefore, we are justified before God, not only by Faith, but likewise by Works."

So, once again, Big Fail. 

You did not get the first sentence correct. You threw Calvin and Arminius and every Christian subscribing to their views under the proverbial bus. Now I've just shown you the evidence; I've just provided the proof of error. Will you now, in just the same manner in which the error occurs (public), repent and correct this op? Or will you make known to everyone you make wanton derogatory claims about others' views without evidence (baselessly!) and have so little integrity with truth that you will not repent? 

Because, Gid, this op really smells. You screwed up bad and if I have to I'll go through it line by line, affirming that which bears consistency with scripture, inquiring of you that which is either unclear or not adequately understood, and refuting that which clearly does not bear consistency with the whole of God's word, beginning with the fact you could have asserted your view of salvation with scapegoating the vast numbers of fellow believes you just claimed were following a "smokescreen"!  Why start an op on the believers' need to work out our salvation with blatant error (straw man) and implicit accusation? The op could have been written without any mention of either man or their respective soteriologies.

Really bad form. 

So are you gonna acknowledge the errors or not? You gonna acknowledge the error of misrepresenting Calvin and Arminius, or not? You gonna acknowledge the error of implicitly indicting millions of believers for following a "smokescreen," or not? 

 

 

.

It amazes me that you would try to make this post into an attack  on those who believe one side of the debate or another. That was not the point of the post, and I can assure you that was no slight meant in my words, no matter how you seem to try to drum up getting  offended from both sides of the argument. 

My point was that if one is abiding in the vine, which is what our God has called us to, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. That is God's promise to us. So, if one finds themselves yielding to those lusts, something is being missed. 

The Word tells us that if we walk correctly in Him, He will cause fruits to grow in us.... love, joy, peace, patience, kindness... etc. If we have walked with God for years, somerimes even decades, and thesecare noticeably absent, something in amiss. 

The test of whether or not our salvation is genuine is if we have palpable, manifested love for one another, , and are found loving God with ALL of our hearts. If these things are not seen in our lives, something is wrong. 

Why? His promises work. God has told us that real grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts. For new converts, it is simply about forgiveness, but not so for those more seasoned saints who have walked in Him much longer. He promises to cause us.... do we read that? ...... CAUSE US.... to walk as obedient children. 

Obedience is demanded under the old covenant. It is promised in the new! Glory! 

So, dear brother, you can take offense feeling like I am somehow attacking you and all others here, trying it seems to whip up the masses, which I am not.  However, the  truth is, if most here are honest, these things listed above are not only uncommon in most Christians lives, they are actually  looked at as impossible. 

Do we think a man can walk in holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our lives? Do we think it  our reasonable service to walk our our time here on earth as living sacrifices?  We are instructed to bring every thought into subjection to the obedience of Christ. Do we agree with Him here? 

You see, these promises are not  in most Christian's  discussions as to even being possible, let alone being assured. Yet God has indeed promised to be the potter, to cause us to will (want to) and to do (actually obey) of His good pleasure. Why will we not cry our for the faith to believe Him? 

What these promises assure us, dear brother, is real Christianity in its full glory. We know the God of forgiveness, but how few there are..... yet.... who know Him as the God who cleanses us of all unrighteousness? It has left us healed, but only slightly, and God's will is that He liberates us completely from the old us and the weakness and sin that comes with it. 

You want to engage me in a head knowledge battle. I choose not to. I am rather aiming for the hearts of readers, yours included, many of whom  are tired of felling condemned even though there is no more condemnation.

God tells us that we are no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit, and owe the flesh NOTHING. That is the truth of the full extent of our salvation, but unbelief has blinded our eyes, and has done so pretty much ever since the grievous wolves entered the flock after the death of Paul. Praise God, that time is coming to a close and in a hurry.

Here is what He is even now opening our eyes to. 

He tells us if we resist the enemy with our shield of faith held high, satan WILL flee from us. 

He promises never to allow us to be tempted above our  ability to resist it, 

He tells us we have not only been forgiven, but delivered from the very power of darkness. 

This is a time when our hearts must outshout our heads. Do we want to truly walk in the glorious liberty of the children of God, or are we content to to walk in the status quo we have all grown up in? Will  we remain content with simply being forgiven, or do we long for a walk where we truly please Him with our obedience.... obedience He promises to bring about in our lives? 

Darkness is coming. Head knowledge will wilt in the heat of this coming battle. The power to overcome what satan will throw at us must emanate from Christ abiding in our hearts, hearts that are found crying out to God to do what He promises clearly to do for us.... set us free indeed. 

I am sorry if you feel like I am dodging your many challenges to debate. The truth however, is that it is you who are dodging the real point of my posts. I pray you see that.

blessings, 

Gideon

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

You do realize the vast majority of those scriptures you've quoted and referenced are words written by the regenerate believer to regenerate believers about regenerate believers and NOT to or about unregenerate non-believers, yes? You realize all the many mentions of "you," "we," and "us" throughout the entire epistolary is people who are already converted from death to life? You do also understand those verses have completely different meaning and relevance to the unregenerate non-believer? 

 

This is real simple, Gideon: Can you show me an example of a believing non-believer in the Bible? 

Can you show me a scriptural precedent wherein the Bible describes someone coming from nonbelief unregeneracy to regenerate belief in his/her own might apart from God being already at work in his/her life for the purpose of salvation? 

 

Are you prepared to discuss this op knowing the analytical abilities I bring to bear upon it? And I ask that as encouragement, not admonition. One way or another the content of this op is built upon the answers to these fundamentally foundational questions I've just asked. Can you have that conversation with me?

I do not understand your issue. Of course they are written to believers. Before we go wandering off on a tangent of your particualr choosing, can you tell me if you agree or disagree as to the premise of my OP? That is what I would like to discuss. 

blessings, 

Gids

22 minutes ago, Episcopius said:

It's ok, Gideon.

 

Thanks for your graciousness. Many get caught up in the free will vs. predestination debate. My personal feeling is if we put all that effort into seeking how to walk holy before the Lord instead, the argument would not seem so critically important to us, and our peace far greater.  

Many more are drawn to the Lord by our abiding in the vine, bearing fruits that He brings forth, than by our explaining to them doctrines that may tantalize our minds but do nothing for our hearts. 

blessings to you, Episcopus

Gids

1 hour ago, Episcopius said:

Armenian is a nationality - Arminian is a theological position.

 

I would love to say my darned spell check failed me, but the truth is I just learned something. Thank you. ?

blessings, 

Gids

41 minutes ago, ChickenCoop said:

My concern is the effects of being vaccinated every year after year after year after year after year after year etc for flu. I mean what would happen if someone had the chicken pox vaccination every year from the time it went on the market until forever. 

The reason flu virus keeps mutating is because of all the vaccinations people get.

 

That last statement is, as far as I am aware, not true. They mutate constantly, naturally. They do not do so in response to our getting vaccinated. They do not think. 

blessings, 

Gids

Scientists: 'Exactly zero' evidence COVID-19 came from a lab

Filed Under: 

COVID-19

Mary Van Beusekom | News Writer | CIDRAP News

  | 

May 12, 2020

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NIAID

Since the COVID-19 pandemic began, the Internet has been teeming with provocative conspiracy theories that the novel coronavirus was (1) created in a Wuhan, China, lab and deployed as a bioweapon or (2) derived from bats, grown on tissue culture, intentionally or accidentally transmitted to a researcher, and released into the community.

Politicians have touted these theories in an attempt to blame China for the pandemic, and a discredited US scientist recently released a book and now-banned video claiming that wealthy people deliberately spread COVID-19 to boost vaccination rates. And late last week, an unsubstantiated NBC News report on cell phone location data suggested that the Wuhan lab temporarily shut down after a "hazardous event" in October.

Even Kristian Andersen, PhD, a professor in the Department of Immunology and Microbiology at Scripps Research Institute in La Jolla, California, and lead author of a research letter published Mar 17 in Nature Medicine on the origins of the virus, first thought that COVID-19 was just as likely to have been accidentally released from a lab as it was to have come from nature.

But that was before he learned more about COVID-19 and related coronaviruses, which have features already seen in nature. "There are lots of data and lots of evidence, as well as previous examples of this coming from nature," he said. "We have exactly zero evidence or data of this having any connection to a lab."

He says the new coronavirus clearly originated in nature, "no question about it by now."