TheCurseOfTheRodain

Here is the main issue Rodain. Material prosperity doesn't bring lasting satisfaction or joy. The things that last and are true wealth are Spiritual eg. love, fellowship, family etc. Have you noticed how many of the extremely wealthy live in abject sorrow and disillusion because their wealth cannot produce happiness ? True joy comes apart from material things and this is why Jesus said our treasures are in Heaven and not Earth. You are right about what brings lasting satisfaction; God Himself, your spouse, your child(ren), etc. BUT, I did not say wealth did that, I am defending the point of having the wealth. We are called to be Ambassadors of the Covenant, Ambassadors of The Anointed One; part of representing that Covenant is to walk in ALL the promises, one of which is wealth and riches. That's all I'm saying. Wealth and riches are not the point of the Covenant, they are an effect and privelege of the Covenant. Wealth is good when not worshipped, just as trees are good when not worshipped, and so are cats, and Christmas lights and hamburgers and computers. They're all things to make our lives better, anyTHING can be worshipped and take the place of God in our hearts, but that doesn't mean we swear off cars because they have the potential to be worshipped, or we bash on people who have cars, etc......I think you see my point.

Shiloh, I literally don't have the hours required to post a proper retort to the myriad things you have said on this thread, though I would certainly like to, I know others are benefitting from it; I stand by what I have already said in earlier posts on this particular topic. Though for the final time, the "prosperity Gospel" preachers you mentioned - I have never heard them say, come get rich! Forget that Jesus fool! Just follow your flesh! I really don't know what you are talking about with these guys. Properity is a good thing (there is a reason why every member of mankind appreciates it, because it is good - if it weren't good, God wouldn't provide it since Jesus said He only gives GOOD gifts), and God's Ambassadors should be living examples of the Scriptures (all the promises), and part of that IS physical wealth. If God didn't care about physical wealth for His people then Heaven would not have physical riches descriptions (crystal walls, gold streets, big homes, best of the best of everything etc), but even though it is a spiritual kingdom, it has physical things (we will have physical bodies and eat physical food (Jesus ate food in His resurrected body and we will be eating at the Wedding Supper of the Lamb)). And on top of this, if the stuff they preach about how to sow seed and reap physical harvests of prosperity, then how do so many Believers succeed at this? And the same for healing and so on? It's all there for the taking, just like a car willed to you, but unless you get in and start driving it, it will do you no good and you'll never enjoy it. Be blessed my brother, materially and spiritually.

Sinners want to be rich, too. They want the whole package where prosperity is concerned. They want better houses, better families, more money, a secure finanical future, happiness, fancy vacations, fancy clothes, etc. The message of prosperity doesn't offer anything that a sinner can't get on his own without God. That's what makes your theology a false gospel that all Christians should reject. The prosperity is for the BELIEVERS, not to attract the sinners (it is a SIGN to the Believers of what God can do if you believe His Word) - you are learning what to do once you have entered into the household of faith. You don't preach prosperity to get people saved, you preach prosperity so that Believers can have a better life. The Gospel doesn't work without entering the Kingdom of God and that only happens through receiving Jesus as your Lord and Savior (Romans 10:9-10)

The Bible agrees with Shiloh here, you cannot be a Christian and say God used or did evolution. The two are 100% incompatible, because God already said in Genesis 1 and 2 that He didn't use any evolution at all, but rather that everything was good (and death and sickness and disease are not good, and you need these 3 to have evolution before Adam).

GE, I don't know what you mean by Josiah suffering? You are saying that God caused his father to be an idol worshipper? Or didn't stop him from being one...? Not seeing the connections on this one.

GE, re Moses: Re: Moses The people of Israel were made slaves to the Egyptians as a new Pharaoh came into power who didn't know Joseph. Did God have a purpose for this? Yes. God's purpose was to show His glory to the nations, claim Israel as His own people, and plunder the Egyptians. Moses was a murderer (Exodus 2:11-15) who fled Egypt to escape Pharaoh's wrath. Moses was a man who didn't speak well. Moses spent his "youth" or first 40 years as a prince. Moses then spent the next 40 years as a herdsman in the wilderness. At the age of 80, God saw fit to bless Moses into starting his life's work and being an instrument in God's plan for taking Israel out of Egypt. Moses was tasked with going back to Egypt where he was known as murderer. Yet God protected Moses and God showed His power through the plagues on Egypt. Because of Moses's lack of faith (Numbers 20:2-13 and Deut. 32:51) in God Moses wasn't allowed to enter the promised land and died at the age of 120. Moses life wasn't easy. Moses actually broke one of the very commandments that God gave him later on to teach Israel (You shall not murder). Moses was estranged from his family for many years, criticized by the world's most prominent ruler (Pharaoh), criticized by his own people (Israel), and made to wonder the wilderness for 40 years after being used by God to basically bring Egypt to it's knees. Yet God was with Moses and accomplished His purpose. Now with respect to the slavery of Abraham's seed as spoken of in Genesis 15 when making the first everlasting Covenant: Notice that God did NOT say that GOD would cause them to become slaves, He ANNOUNCED to Abraham what would happen, but He didn't cause it. So God did not purpose this, but rather promised He would deliver Abraham's seed OUT of Egypt, and with great spoil to boot (the lost wages on 400 years worth of wages for those 2 million people). Moses could not enter into the Promised Land on account of unbelief; for God had said to SPEAK to the rock and Moses didn't believe God on that and instead chose (in frustration no doubt, for those people tried him sorely with their unbelief) to STRIKE the rock, and TWICE to boot, and so the people gave glory to Moses instead of God. And the root was unbelief that God could handle the situation (which is like 1 Peter 5:6-11 where care is shown to actually be a form of pride, saying God can't handle my situation, I'll have to take care of it, instead of casting that care over on Him). I don't know what else you wanted me to respond to on that one...?

GE, you posted a lot over TG, but I will reply here. So by this logic, that whatever you see that anyone has said in the Word that that means that that is the Truth and God Himself vouches for it? (this is what I infer from your question in the Joseph thread). If so, God has a lot to say about what Job's friends said, saying they were all wrong and that Job himself was wrong (though in being wrong he did not curse God, and therefore did not sin) and He would instruct them. There are many other places where someone says something that does not line up with what God actually has laid out/said/etc. Eve said that God said not to even TOUCH the fruit, but notice God did not correct her, so now do we say God lied or made a mistake because He didn't correct her self-deception? Surely God was with Eve and Adam (He was in the sinless Garden with them). Cain did the same thing, RIGHT TO GOD'S OWN FACE, and notice God leaves him in his own self-deception after he just made up a whole bunch of trash and lies about what God had said. So trying to say that because Joseph said what he said, that God destroyed his life to save some gentiles (those outside the Covenant) is a joke and goes against the Covenant itself and is insulting to God for what God had said He would do for the seed of Abraham. So to sum up, God did not bring upon Joseph what his brothers did. They acted out of hate and jealousy; Joseph was in the bloodline of Abraham and had the Blessing of Abraham, just as we do today; we aren't told what Joseph was saying during those times, but whatever he did say determined whether he lived or died (Proverbs 18:21) or had blessing or cursing (Deut 30:19 and Prov 18:21). The Blessing is sort of like having an iPhone. We could standard issue an iPhone to every Believer, but unless taught, very few will ever walk in all the features of the phone and all it can do. Even when taught, they could still make mistakes (operator errors). The iPhone can do 100s of things for you, but unless you know what to do, it just kind of sits in your pocket and is of little benefit to you on the Earth. We could say the same with all of God's promises (healing, victory, prosperity, etc). Any you can stumble onto some feature of the iPhone and get something good out of it occasionally, but just because you have it, doesn't mean you're using it, or using it to it's full potential.

Hi Rustyangel, Job is different, he wasn't in the Covenant we have and brought the stuff on himself through his fear. Now with Paul, notice that when he said he rejoiced in his sufferings he said that he was weak, BUT THEN HE WAS STRONG. In other words, his reliance on the anointing (the anointing that now abides in us, which is the anointing that came with The Anointed One, as referenced in 1 John) made him strong, and he OVERCAME the problems; he told Timothy later that all that tremendous junk he was delivered OUT of them ALL by God - through him standing on God's Word (just like Jesus). He KNEW Him in whom he had believed, he was trying to believe or convince himself, he KNEW Him and stood on what He had said. The reason why any Believer finds it difficult to rejoice in sufferings and weaknesses et caetera is because they are only taught that first part - no one teaches on how to use the anointing and stand on the Word like Paul is talking about to gain total victory in every circumstance/storm/situation. He rejoiced because he knew he was victorious - this thing could not overcome him! You don't have to tolerate pain and suffering, they aren't God's will for you. Don't take them, take the blessing instead, take healing, take provision, take victory and protection - it's all been laid up for you legally in the New Covenant. Take possession of it, just the way the Israelites were given legally the Promised Land, but they had to go in and TAKE POSSESSION of it. God is the same yesterday today and forever, so if that's how He does things, and you look at what He's released and given you by the cross (your inheritance (Jesus told Paul tell them about the forgiveness of sins AND their inheritance), then it's on you to take it and start walking in it by learning how to stand on what God has guaranteed in His Word. Be like Abraham, consider not your circumstance but the Word of God only. If it isn't instant it doesn't change the Truth; sometimes it's instant, other times it takes a while, but never put your faith into the future - take it TODAY with your faith and with your patience KEEP IT. Don't say anything crosswise of the Word. Say what He says, Jesus got good results like that.

GE Philippians 2:7-8 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." What part of that doesn't say that Jesus came as a man? God has a reputation, He says He came as a man who had no reputation. He says was made in the LIKENESS of men (just like Adam and Eve were made in the likeness of the Father and were just like Him). He says He was found in FASHION (made) as a MAN. What part of that isn't saying Jesus came as a man? If He Jesus remained God, HOW DID HE DIE? (God cannot die) If Jesus remained God, HOW COULD HE BECOME SIN (as Jesus did) If Jesus remained God, why did He constantly identify Himself as the Son of Man (son of Adam)? Other translations say He EMPTIED Himself of His divine priveleges. The bottom line is, Jesus came as God in a man's body, because only in becoming a MAN could He die and therefore break the power of the one who held the power of death (the Devil). AND ONLY AS A MAN could Jesus make the statement that ANYONE who believes in Him would DO THE SAME WORKS HE HAS DONE and even GREATER. If He did everything He did as God NONE OF US could do anything He did and God would be a liar. He had to do it the same way we do - faith in God and His Word; no fear.

The fact is that God has not called anyone to be rich. God regulates the behavior of rich people, but there is no "call" anywhere in the Bible for someone to be rich. As for Galatians 3:29, you still have not caught on to the fact that the promise mentioned in that verse has NOTHING to do with prosperity. It is has to do with the promise made to Abraham that he would be the father of many nations. You simply and blindly parrot terminology and you are not paying attention to what the Bible actually says those words mean. There is blessing of prosperity anywhere in Galatians three. That doesn't even fit the context of the chapter or of the book itself. Paul is dealing with Judaizing heresy in that church. He is not addressing the issue of poverty. shiloh357 LASTLY: The call came in Genesis 1:28 and was given to all those who were formerly outside the bloodline of Abraham in Galatians 3:13-14 and 29. We are all called to be rich. What Prince is not rich like the King? What Ambassador does not drive/wear/eat the BEST? In the world, which is run by the Devil, the ambassadors all wear, eat and drive and live in the best, and now in the Kingdom of God's Dear Son that we have been translated into (Colossians), we are called Ambassadors of the KING OF KINGS, how could it possibly follow that we do not therefore (not as an end, but as a matter of rank and privelege conferred by unmerited favor) eat/drive/wear/live in the BEST? You had said before that Jesus was NOT like us, by the way, but in Philippians 2 it says "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man..." So Jesus own Word says HE was MADE in the likeness of men, in the same way that Adam and Eve were made in the likeness of God the Father. And Jesus was found in FASHION (again, made) as a MAN, not God... So Jesus has said He did everything He did as a MAN, as the Son of Man, not as God. After all, it was a MAN that lost everything for us to the Devil and it had to legally be a MAN that would get it back. Jesus was the only Man the same as Adam was at the beginning, being without the sin nature that entered the DNA of us all. Galatians 3:14 after Paul mentions the blessing of Abraham (which is THE blessing, and Proverbs 10:22 says "The Blessing of the Lord maketh RICH, and He addeth no sorrow (Hebrew for toil) with it"), he says the promise of the Spirit. You think that means being the father of many nations, you are wrong: it is in Romans 4:13 that says Abraham was heir of the whole world.

No, we are not talking about socialism. Socialism is government mandated redistribution of wealth. Moderation is self-imposed. It is not a case of setting a dollar amount as being "too much money." Rather it is a self-imposed limitation. Billy Graham's ministry brought in millions a year. But he had a board of directors that gave him a set salary. The rest of the money went to the ministry. His salary was modest and he has never had a million dollars in his life, but he had a modest home in the mountains of North Carolina. He didn't live with rags on his back, but he didn't live in the kind of opulance that Word of Faith peopple are conned into thinking is appropriate for preachers. He is a good example of Christian who lived his life in moderation. That you feel that it has to be either to one extreme or the other, feast or famine, extravagance or abject poverty shows just how much you have been improperly influenced by the Word of Faith movement. The fact is that God has not called anyone to be rich. God regulates the behavior of rich people, but there is no "call" anywhere in the Bible for someone to be rich. As for Galatians 3:29, you still have not caught on to the fact that the promise mentioned in that verse has NOTHING to do with prosperity. It is has to do with the promise made to Abraham that he would be the father of many nations. You simply and blindly parrot terminology and you are not paying attention to what the Bible actually says those words mean. There is blessing of prosperity anywhere in Galatians three. That doesn't even fit the context of the chapter or of the book itself. Paul is dealing with Judaizing heresy in that church. He is not addressing the issue of poverty. shiloh357 Socialism being run by a government is true, but the citizens have to go along with it; you are making standards that God never said, just like the Pharisees (the so-called godly men of their days) made a bunch of rules that may have seemed holy and good, but God never said and who would have ever thought that Jesus would criticize them for it, saying they made their disciples into twice the sons of hell that they were. These rules made them into sons of hell, meaning they followed the Devil's ideology. There is no place in the Bible that mandates a "financial cut-off" for Believers or Ministers or Apostles/Prophets/Teachers/Evangelists/Pastors. Anyone who follows one is living under a man-made mandate that God never imposed. You cannot have what you preach against, those who rail against prosperity and insist on a self-imposed financial success limit will get exactly what they say, just like God (Proverbs 18:21). If you don't want prosperity for yourself, you're selfish (I don't mean this inciendiarily or rudely, just stating a fact), but don't teach others a man-made doctrine of financial limits because you don't want them. Selfish because as I said above, you cannot do much for the Kingdom of God without money. How many anointed ministries called into ministry have failed because they couldn't get money? It takes money to purchase or build buildings, it takes money to eat, it takes money to drive/own cars, it takes money to transport goods, it takes money to own a home, EVERYTHING TAKES MONEY, we live in an economic world and this will shock some people, but study it out and see for yourself: Jesus spoke more on money than faith and prayer COMBINED. Why should the wicked get all the nice stuff while the Princes and Princesses of the KING get the hand-me-downs and beg for the world's leftovers? That doesn't even make a little bit of sense. So again, don't place a cap on your prosperity; God never did, you should be an imitator of God as dear children; placing a cap on your prosperity severely cripples your love walk.

shiloh357 Another way of expressing moderation is self-control. Being able to moderate how much you eat, how money much you spend, how much time you waste in front of the TV and so on. The minister of the Gospel needs to be conscious of how he appears in public particularly when he is living off of the financial donations of others who are not obligated to give to his ministry. It is one thing to have enough money to meet one's needs and provide for a reasonably comfortable life. It is another thing to live in opulance, to dine in five star restauraunts and spend thousands a week on lavish motel suites and feeling like you need private jets and need to drive a Bentley or a Porsche. A minsiter of the Gospel should live a modest and moderate life, particularly when his donors are often people living on fixed and low incomes and are giving sacrficially under the impression that their money is going for the gospel and not simply lining the pockets of a greedy hireling who is only in this for the money. NEXT, Show in the Scriptures where it is written "that a minister of the Gospel should live a modest and moderate life" - that's an opinion, not God's Word. Jesus wore SEAMLESS garments, do you know how EXPENSIVE that was in His day? That's a preacher wearing the best of the best, wasn't anything better. Jesus didn't correct that woman who poured out a bottle of nard on His feet that was worth TONS of money; when His disciples moaned about how that could have been sold and the money given to the poor, Jesus said she did a good thing by dumping it out on Him - if that had happened today, many would have criticized Jesus just like His disciples for the "misuse" of ministry resources (He could have stopped her after all). Jesus also paid the room and board for his 12, plus the 70 part timers and who knows how many others. He had plenty built up over just 3 years of sowing and reaping. Jesus was no bum. If God's perfect will was Adam and Eve to have no needs and rather have EVERY want met in the Garden of Eden (which means house of pleasures) then why would God later come and try to get everyone to downgrade and live way below their inheritance and potential? What parent says, boy, I sure hope my kids don't make a lot of money one day, I really hope they stick to a level of financial moderation, having only just enough, I wouldn't want them to be able pay off church buildings or buy ABC/NBC/CBS/CNN and turn those stations into godly networks producing only godly shows to influence our country, and I sure wouldn't want them being able to pay off other Believer's debts and buy them cars and pay for food to feed 10 million starving children! My God, if the Church had that kind of money, what would happen to people? Your love walk is totally hindered by not having an abundance of money/resources. Why did Paul write about offerings in 2 Cor 9:6-11 about ALWAYS having ALL sufficiency in ALL THINGS SO THAT YOU MAY ABOUND TO EVERY GOOD WORK. HOW SELFISH are they insist they shall only have just enough, while so many around them are suffering, when they COULD be believing God and taking Him at His Word for prosperity and even if they want to live in "moderation" be able to sow 10s of 1,000s of dollars into the lives of others and get the Church out of debt and give GOOD things to others. (when you get a gift, do you want a "moderate" gift, or would you appreciate a "best" gift? When you give to the poor, do you give them the worn out, busted junk or stuff that is no longer good enough for you, or do you want to bless them with NICE STUFF they can enjoy? The list goes on and on.)

I use the word "parrot" to indicate that you are using the same verbiage that I heard when I lived in Tulsa. You are saying the same exact things I heard Rhema and ORU Students say when I worked around them. As for the Word of Faith movement... it is almost entirely fixated on material prosperity and justifying the lust for wealth. Kenneth Copeland in his book entitled, "Laws of Prosperity" claims that, "God will make you as rich as Solomon if you have the faith." I have seen them on TV, K. Copeland, K. Hagin Jr., Rod Parsley, TD Jakes, Fred Price, Creflo Dollar, Jesse Duplantis etc. They are almost always fixated on material prospertiy. That is their gospel and it is a false gospel. It's a false gospel because you don't have to be saved to want to be wealthy, have a bigger house, a better car, fine clothes, etc. None of the stuff that the prosperity gospel espouses is anything that the average sinner would not want. In fact, all of it is achievable without having to be a Christian. Starting here, I don't follow a "movement", I go by the Bible. The most Scripturally accurate church I have found is the Word of Faith church. I think you see them backwards. First of all, WHERE is it written that you SHALL NOT have prosperity? Scripturally, WHY do you insist you cannot have prosperity as a Believer? Based on what precisely? And, HOW does the attribute of prosperity make the Gospel false? The entire Old Covenant was about God blessing His people if they obeyed and loading them up with material prosperity, if the NEW Covenant is a better covenant based on better terms, then how could anyone say we suddenly LOSE prosperity and suffer poverty or "moderation" only for the duration of the New Covenant. If God took care of His people materially and prospered them greatly all over the Old Covenant, then by definition (according to Hebrews and other places) in the NEW Covenant WE HAVE TO PROSPER, even MORE than in the Old Covenant, both PHYSICALLY AND SPIRITUALLY. Secondly, I don't see what you mean by saying you can be a sinner and enjoy the same things that come with prosperity as a Believer can - what is the point of saying that? I don't see a point in there. Of course wealth is "achievable" by sinners - WHO said it's not? I didn't say that, I don't see where the Bible says that - I don't know who you're fighting against there...How many times did David want God to smite the wicked who prospered or point out that it was not good that they did prosper some of the time?

Butero I would add that God blessing them to replenish the Earth does not mean that it once WAS full and now is empty and needs to be made filled/complete again. It means to make more of whatever you use up (thereby making it complete once more). It is part of the Blessing we've been given as Believers, having that authority to do that.

Originally inspired as you write it? So, you're claiming, what, the weight of scripture here? Not a good idea, IMO. The main problem with the prosperity gospel is where it puts God. It makes God a servant of man when its the other way around. Man is to be a servant of God. Jesus said those who are His hear His voice; I can hear God's voice just as surely as anyone following Him can. I hear Him whenever I am listening. I didn't say my words carry the same weight as Scripture - YOU said that. When I said my words are inspired to me, I meant I am hearing what to write. I was even intending to reply to any of this thread but the Lord woke me up at night and put things in front of me and spoke to me about many things the last 3 days, so I am writing them. And if God is not our servant why did Jesus say He had NOT come to be served, but to serve (us)? He is God and He said He came to serve US. God says in the Scriptures, that concerning My sons and daughters, command ye Me. And then He expects us to serve others as we follow His example. God didn't serve us one time and then say, that's it, He does it everyday. Jesus and His Word is the very force holding everyTHING together, you don't think that's daily service, beyond everything He said He would do for us according to the Covenants of Promise? If a business says, here are all the things we'll do for you by entering into to covenant with you, and then you make a demand on some of those things, or ALL of them listed, don't you expect them to perform them as promised? Paul pointed out that even among MEN, covenants cannot be broken or refused, how MUCH MORE the Covenant of Blood Jesus made for us between Himself and the Father? God didn't make the Covenant for HIS benefit, it's for YOU. He doesn't have any needs, YOU do. The Covenant is for you, start calling it to come to pass and see for yourself what happens when you LIVE by faith (as the just are called to do). You'll be filled with joy

The whole point of this thread can be summed up in this: ALL OF GOD'S PROMISES ARE UP TO YOU. There is a difference between LEGAL inheritance and VITAL inheritance. If you legally inherit a car, you own that thing. It belongs to you. BUT, until you TAKE POSSESSION of it, it does nothing for you. Look over at Joshua 15-17 for a great picture of the Church today and throughout the ages. Only a small portion (Judah) takes their inheritance seriously and gets all of it and gets so much that they can bless others with some of it. 4 other tribes take their inheritance, they possess it, but 7, SEVEN OUT OF TWELVE of the tribes have to get a visit from Joshua where he says, how long will YOU (not God) be slack to possess your inheritance which God HAS GIVEN (past tense) you? Hebrews 4 also warns about not inheriting all that has been given to you already LEGALLY through Jesus' death and resurrection (healing, prosperity, the blessing, favor, gifts of the Spirit, tongues, fruits of the Spirit, etc), but rather is telling you to TAKE the promiseS through faith AND patience. This is the Church today. Satan has made up many wonderful lies (which are fences really) to keep Believers from knowing about/possessing what is theirs in their inheritance (as Jesus told Paul, tell My people about the forgiveness of sins AND their inheritance). So, to sum up, NONE of the promises are automatic, starting with salvation (you TOOK it with your faith - how else do you KNOW your name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life), not a one. YOU as the BELIEVER (we're called to believe what God says, whether it fits with a particular church's doctrine or not) must take it. The best illustration would be like I said, here, have a $100 bill, and I held out my hand to you with it in my hand. You say, okay. But it's still sitting in my hand until you TAKE it out of my hand. Then there's a waiting period where you have to get into position to use it....like ordering something online.... The real test of whether you believe it or not is the JOY you have over it. If you really believe it like a little child, there will be joy. And remember, it is JESUS' faith you have. For at the new birth EVERY man was dealt THE measure of faith (not A measure, THE), and then you have to let him finish it (which is a reference to wood-working, like making a piano from a giant log to where it is the finished product and makes music beautifully). Anyway, I know this is helping some people on here. God bless you all! Love you!

Actually Shiloh, I am not parroting anyone or anything. I am not writing off of a teleprompter here. Much of this is originally inspired as I write it. You also speak of "Word of Faith" like it's something people mindlessly follow hoping to get rich, that is a ridiculous assertion - the whole point of Word of Faith is to learn how to stand on the Word of God in the manner which Paul describes in Romans 10 and get the results God has promised, just like Jesus and the Apostles, etc. Where is your biblical authority for "moderation" is my point? There is nothing in the Bible that speaks of moderation with money. It is prosperity or poverty, blessing or curse. It's the choice of every Believer which direction he/she wishes to go forward in. But there is no middle ground. Just as with your body, it is either doing things that encourage the cells to live and prosper or degenerate and die. There is no staying the same, whether you can see it or not; the body goes up or down. Finances go up or down, relationships go up or down, businesses go up or down, etc. Everything goes toward life or toward death. The problem with stating a "moderate" approach on finances is this: HOW MUCH is moderate? According to whom? Who determines how much you can have, or when it's too much? When other people determine you have too much and we need to take what you have and give it to those who have less than you it's called SOCIALISM. Socialism does not, has not, will not, can not ever work, and anything other than pure prosperity according to the level you have let your faith be developed is not going to work. Again, God never calls you to "moderate" finances, He calls you to be rich. It's your choice if you want to answer that call, but it's on every Believer. I was once homeless, now I am blessed, prosperous - standing on the Word and receiving and learning how to use the Scriptures and get what God has promised me according to Galatians 3:29. His Word works, if you'll work it. I am living proof. What I have has come by God's hand, not by any man. Just like Abraham.

How can anyone even try to say that Isaiah 53 and Matthew 8 are not references to physical healing? That is atrocious. Matthew 8:16-17 says that after Jesus HEALED PHYSICALLY all the people that came/were brought to Him that THUS HE FULFILLED Isaiah 53:4-5, He bore away our diseases and carried our sicknesses? That is absolute rubbish to try to make that say it was only spiritual - those people were healed PHYSICALLY, and it says that BECAUSE THEY WERE HEALED PHYSICALLY it was the fulfillment of what God promised in Isaiah 53:4-5. You need a good theologian to help you misunderstand the Bible, because there is no way to misunderstand these 2 Scriptures. And you asked me to testify of healings I have performed through the laying on of hands as Jesus said ALL Believers would do in Mark 16:17-18 and Paul/Apollos/whomever backs up in Hebrews 6:1-2: I have laid hands on a man stricken with rampant colon cancer and commanded the cancer to go and healing to come in Jesus' name. He felt healing power go into his lower regions and said he knew he was healed on the spot. 3 weeks later, he had his appointment with the doctors - they couldn't find 1 trace of it anywhere! Hallelujah, and God was glorified in his healing! Another time I prayed for an opportunity to lay hands on the 17-year old son of one of my clients before he would have an operation to repair his torn ACL from football. As God would have it, I got that opportunity the night before. I laid hands on him and prayed and he said he felt heat and power enter his knee and leg and then he got up and started squatting, walking, running and then jumping! All of which are impossible for anyone with a torn ACL! Jesus healed him too! Glory to God! Another time I saw a man who was a friend of one of my clients, and I noticed he was not doing well. I found out he had severe Crohn's Disease and pooped into a bag attached to his stomach and could not stand up straight due to pain and his spine being stuck. I preached to him about God's will and he believed it, and I offered to pray and lay hands on him. He wanted that. When we were finished, tears streamed down his face as he stood up straight for the first time that he ever remembered in his life and that painful bloating sensation he'd always had was gone. I told him he was healed and he knew it and received it! I saw him many months later - the doctors could not understand how it was possible and did 4 biopsies, all of which came back negative. They gave him a clean bill of health and I saw him start working out and getting buff and enjoying life since then! Praise God! Another time, I laid hands on myself and prayed and was healed of conjunctivitis (this was at a time when I was poor and had no money for medicine and if you don't get healed, you go blind according to the eye doctor), praise God! I've laid hands on knees, wrists, spines; seen them all healed in Jesus' name. I laid hands on a nice old lady who had rheumatoid arthritis and could barely move, she was healed and got up out of her chair and said the pain was GONE! Hallelujah! I've laid hands on my cousin who fell off a 50-foot cliff on the highway and his head looked like a large balloon (his ears had disappeared) and the doctors who had said he had a 100% chance of death in a matter of minutes, suddenly came out after my wife and I laid hands on him (everyone else had given up hope and were preparing funeral plans) and said the bleeding had spontaneously stopped in his brain. Then they said even IF he survives, he'll always be about brain dead and totally retarded, never would walk, or speak again. The NEXT DAY, he was UP WALKING AROUND TALKING! He is alive and well today with no problems whatsoever, and that was about 4-5 years ago. Praise GOD! There are a lot more on this list, but I don't want to make an infinite post. I want people to read it and enjoy it! So I will cap it with this: if healing is spiritual as you contend, then HOW did all these people get healed BODIES? How does it happen with all these healing ministries? How did the disciples and apostles do it? Healing is REAL, and it is TODAY, and it is for YOU, for ALL BELIEVERS. Don't believe the lies, receive the TRUTH of God's Word! He wants His people whole and well and healed!

GE I don't know where you posted an answer to my question...? Shiloh, what I meant was that when people are saying that God is causing their suffering in some form, or allowing it, it is not true - it is the Devil (this is meant in relation to sickness and disease and related issues). As for good people making dumb decisions, yes absolutely, there is plenty of that. God cannot be blamed for drug use or sexual issues or getting into debt or things like that, because people choose them, but it would be hard to say there is not a spirit associated with those activities, planting suggestions, attempting to seduce, etc. I would disagree that they cannot in part be blamed on the Devil to some degree for whatever steals, kills or destroys Jesus said is the fingerprint of the Devil; so whether he (through his army of trillions of demons) directly leads people to it or indirectly, there is still blame. (Surely you will ask how I know there are trillions of demons split across principalities, power, authorities and thrones: in Revelation there is an image of how many angels surround God's throne, if you multiply it out you're looking into the trillions of angels, and this represents the 2/3 leftover from when Satan seduced 1/3 of all angels to follow him). Death and sin entered mankind through Adam, yes, but he is not credited with sickness and disease. And 1 John 3:8 doesn't say that Jesus came for what Adam did, but rather says His appearance was "to destroy the works of the Devil." Again, with respect to Deuteronomy 28:15-68, that IS the curse of the Law; God says if you (not a nation), does not obey ALL My commandments and statutes, these curses will come on you and overtake you. So what were all these commandments and statutes if you say they weren't the Law? Obviously they have to be the Law and Deut 28:15-68 IS a listing of how the INDIVIDUALS (not the nation) can expect things in their lives to be cursed. Going with this, if blessing were truly what you say (redemption from spiritual death and separation from God (or even as Kwik has posited, that it means "happiness"), then HOW can God BLESS fish and birds and animals as He did in Genesis? Fish, birds and animals CANNOT SIN and are neither spiritually alive nor dead, so HOW can God have blessed them with redemption from spiritual death and separation from God or give them happiness? (They also were blessed, like Adam and Eve, BEFORE sin ever existed). The answer is obvious: blessing means what it means in the Hebrew: empowered to prosper. (yes I am going to provide the references for you sometime this week). On top of this, God says in Hebrews 6 that through rain and the bearing of useful herbs the Earth itself is BLESSED - again, the Earth cannot sin, or be happy, so how can God say the Earth itself is blessed with your definition of blessing? It cannot fit; the only thing that fits with the usage of the word BLESSING is what you see in Genesis 1:28, and then you see how it affects you personally and touches and marks your life in Deuteronomy 28:1-14, and Jeremiah 17:7-8 and many other places in Psalms and Proverbs as well as throughout the NC. THIS must be answered. So God defines the Blessing as being fruitful (always producing), multiplying (always increasing), replenishing the Earth (making/procuring more of whatever you use up), subduing it (controlling your environment so it doesn't control you) and having dominion (over the wind, waves, weather, sun, animals, you name it, etc).

Again, for Christians, God said it was all good; cancer, not good, cancer in the fossil record, therefore, fossils occured after Adam. Right there in Genesis.

Ken Hamm makes some good points in his Answers in Genesis videos. Including the answer for the bacteria, I will paraphrase: the bacteria lose their ability to pass information through their cell walls, thus they do not pass the poison to the inside of themselves and do not die as a result; this further proves that all subsequent generations of anything only LOSE genetic information and not ever in any 1 instance has it ever been shown by any test that genetic material is ever gained.

Mr Hinn could easily travel less flamboyantly and use the money to help the poor citizens in the countries he profits from. Can you show me in any of Jesus ministry where He, or any disciple, became wealthy because of the Gospel and lived in opulence ?. Actually I think we will find profiting from the Gospel is considered wrong. Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give. 1Co 9:17-18 If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. (18) What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher of the gospel. Paul was careful to not use money given to the Church for his own use unless absolutely necessary and he certainly never exhibited an opulent lifestyle . 2Co 2:17 Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, as those sent from God. By your logic, since YOU preach the Gospel on here, you should give up everything you have and live in a cardboard box down on the corner, living off the trash that people in the can nearby. Give all your money to the poor, refuse to accept any money from anyone (because then you, by what you have said, would be making a "profit" from preaching the Gospel) and live out your days in misery and squalor. (Of course that is ridiculous, but if you logically followthrough on what you're saying, then that's where you have to go, because you would be practicing what you're preaching - there's always someone who has less than you and getting down to that bottom level is tough). But I don't think you really believe that. Neither did Paul; since you like quoting from Corinthians, how about we look at 2 Cor 8:9 where it is written that at the cross Jesus took the curse of poverty so that you could become rich (money is the only thing that fits there, nothing else fits (money (riches) is the only thing He gave up to come here and that He would get back and also give to us). What about 2 Cor 9:6-12? Paul sure is talking a whole lot about the laws of sowing and reaping with respect to money as your seed. About how to reap the 30, 60 and 100 fold harvests that Jesus spoke of in Mark 4, Luke 8 and Matthew 12. That's all about becoming richer (not to worship money, but so that you can be blessed and be a blessing - your seed is protected because you tithe (Mal 3:10-12)). In Acts when the governor kept calling him in hoping for a bribe; you don't call someone in to get a bribe if they don't have money. This is a governor, he's after serious bucks, and he always hoped Paul would employ some of his serious bucks for a bribe; poor guys don't get called in for bribes. In Timothy, notice that Paul told him to kick out all the rich people if they wouldn't give up their money to the poor! NO, he didn't say that - what he said was tell them to be ready and willing to communicate with their wealth to lay up in store a good foundation for the times to come (you reap what you sow; sow money, reap money, Gal 6:7). He did not mention to get rid of the riches, but rather learn how to get more and be an even bigger blessing. Do you realize that if the church gave up all it's money that the Devil would be calling ALL the shots? Who talked the Church out of getting into to TV, movies, music? The Devil - now look at who owns all the media companies and calls all the shots and influences the youth.....give me a break - NOW God is bringing revival and waking the Church up and making them realize they've been asleep this whole time. Jesus never told anyone not to be rich. The ONE guy Jesus said to SELL what he had and give the MONEY to the poor, He said that so the guy could get MORE money and become richer by learning how to walk in the Kingdom of GOD. THERE IS A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN AND THE KINGDOM OF GOD. There are 2 different words used. KOH is a place, a physical location where God lives. The KOG is a METHOD (God's ways to have, get, do, say, etc) and THAT is why Jesus tells His disciples that is harder for a rich man to enter into the KINGDOM OF GOD (not Heaven) than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle (which is that pointy window in the walls of many cities back then - because the camel would have to walk in on its knees). It's because the man would not believe God (notice Jesus was telling him to FOLLOW him; His disciples were all willing to walk in HIS ways and believe what HE said, this guy showed by his action that he was not willing and thus would not make a good disciple). On the contrary, EVERY other rich person Jesus encountered He told them to KEEP their riches. Joseph of Arimathea was a DISCIPLE of Jesus and he kept all his money and Jesus never "corrected" him (after all, Hebrews 13:8 Jesus' message to everyone is the same, and would be consistent with His message on money (did you know that He spoke on MONEY more than faith and prayer combined?)). Zaccheus on a move of the Holy Spirit, a rich man, gave up half his wealth, but Jesus did not "correct" him and say, "no, give it all, it's evil to be rich. How selfish of you to keep half." There were tons of wealthy rich people who gave to Jesus' ministry throughout the Gospels and He never told them to give their money to the poor; they all stayed rich. The list goes on and on. Remember that in the OC, God said the rich did not pay more tax and the poor did not pay less tax and He is the same yesterday today and forever.

How do you explain people who hang their hat upon the power to heal being fully according to their faith being ill or disabled ? I am not trying to defend those people; I am not their defender and I do not know of whom you speak. It is always according to the faith of the person, except the children (parents) or as it is said in the last part of James (James 5:14) for the elders' faith (yet the person is still coming to be healed). Someone would be a fool to proclaim that THEY have the power to heal apart from the person receiving it with their faith (just like how He said even if He did a sign in the sky they wouldn't believe Him (it would not profit them). Not even Jesus made that claim, but rather He worked according to the system of faith and grace (favor) that God has set up (so that it may be sure to all the seed).

This is absolute nonsense. The scripture the prosperity teachers use to promote the idea that every believer will have their own mansion in Heaven is simply stating that every believer has a place in heaven. (KJV) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. Most modern translations use "rooms" or "dwelling places" instead of "mansions" because the opulence of the believers abode in Heaven isn't the subject. If it's nonsense, they why did Jesus choose to use the word "mansion"? The Holy Spirit is in charge of choosing which words are in there, and the original text says "mansions". You can't look at modern translations to use in place of the original text. That would be called unbelief. Hebrews 4 has some choice words to say about not believing what God has said belongs to you.

Here you go GE for #2: Isaiah 53:4-5, 1 Peter 2:24, Matthew 8:16-17 for starters. I'll be back.