jerryR34

Are you saying faith requires evidence? ============================================================== Faith is the Substance. Yes, that's what I'm saying....it's not "Blind". If it were "Blind", then you could go believing in anything.....evolution, is a perfect example. Nice to know we can count on you for bright, large, bold, text and a way of working evolution into any conversation. It feels like debating with someone face to face who thinks they have a point because they talked louder and said more than you...

Understood.... You know, part of the problem is your status as an "unbeliever". Is that a self-assigned status? I began with that status and it threw off a lot of people (so they bumped me up to Seeker! I should've thrown a party at my church). I absolutely agree that we must continue to exploring the natural world. But Philosophically I cannot account for its or our origins and our experiences apart from a supernatural power that is self-existent (uncaused). Now if you agree with that, we are probably on the same page. clb I was assigned "Nonbeliever". I think we are close to being on the same page, except I don't think science and nature cares a fig about our philosophy. Nature goes on no matter how eloquent our philosophical spewings.

Are you saying faith requires evidence?

Baloney. The Bible always yields to science and chases after secular morality....the bible was written for men who did not understand the things we do today. It will always be playing catch-up...I think God planned it that way. the Bible did not play catch up in these verses Isaiah 40:22, "It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE OF THE EARTH." How did Isaiah know in 700 B.C. the earth is round? The scientists of Isaiah's day thought the earth was flat. They didn't discover the earth is round until the early 1500s when Magellan sailed around the world. How did Isaiah know something over 2000 years ahead of science? Job 26:7, ". . . and hangeth the earth upon NOTHING." During the time of Job, it was believed a god named Atlas held the earth on his shoulders! Nobody believed the earth "hangeth upon NOTHING!" Job is the oldest book in the Bible! Written over 3500 years ago! How did Job know something that was IMPOSSIBLE to know during his day? Genesis 2:7, "And the Lord God formed man of the DUST OF THE GROUND, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul." Surely, you don't take Genesis 2:7 seriously? Do you? November 1982, Reader's Digest had an article titled How Life on Earth Began. It stated that according to scientists at NASA's Ames Research Center the ingredients needed to form a human being can be found IN CLAY. The article said, "The Biblical scenario for the creation of life turns out to be NOT FAR OFF THE MARK."(Reader's Digest, November, 1982 p.116) No, it's "not far off the mark" - it's right on it! Scientists have laughed at the possibility of Genesis having any scientific credibility whatsoever - and yet, the more we learn, the more we find it to be SCIENTIFICALLY CORRECT! Psalm 8:8, ". . . whatsoever passeth through the PATHS OF THE SEAS." After reading Psalm 8:8, Matthew Maury, a U.S. Naval officer, set out to locate these curious "paths in the seas." He discovered the oceans have paths which flow through them. He became known as the "pathfinder of the seas". How did David (the writer of Psalms) know, over 2,000 years ago, there were "paths in the seas"? David probably never even saw an ocean! HOW DID HE KNOW? Ecclesiastes 1:7, "All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again." How did the writer of Ecclesiastes know the water cycle of condensation and evaporation? The sun evaporates water from the ocean, water vapor rises and becomes clouds. This water in the clouds falls back to the earth as rain, collects in rivers, and makes its way back to the ocean. This wasn't known until Galileo in 1630! How did the writer of Ecclesiastes know this in 1000 B.C.? 2500 YEARS AHEAD OF SCIENCE! Leviticus 15:13, "And when he that hath an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself seven days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in RUNNING WATER." God said to wash the infected flesh in RUNNING WATER. Science didn't discover that until two men named Pasteur and Koch in the late 1800s. Doctors were washing their hands in a bowl of water and spreading the germs like wild fire. It wasn't until the invention of the microscope and the science of bacteriology that doctors started washing under RUNNING WATER. Leviticus was written around 1490 B.C. SCIENCE WAS ABOUT 3000 YEARS BEHIND! Isn't it embarrassing how science always lags about 2000 years behind that Amazing Book! Job 38:19, "Where is THE WAY where light dwelleth?" How come Job didn't say where is THE PLACE where light dwelleth? Because light is always moving. How did Job know something in 1500 B.C. that science didn't find out until Einstein? How can the men who wrote that Amazing Book, with their limited scientific knowledge - BE SO FAR AHEAD OF SCIENCE? Ecclesiastes 1:6, "The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again ACCORDING TO HIS CIRCUITS." How did the writer of Ecclesiastes know the wind traveled within circuits? How did he know something that the aerologists and meteorologists are just now discovering? THINK ABOUT IT! How can these men, with their limited knowledge thousands of years ago, be so far ahead of science? Proverbs 6:6-8, "Go to the ant. . . gathereth her food in the harvest." Life's Nature Library "The Insects" (p.163) commenting on Proverbs 6 reads, "One of the entomological puzzles of the last century concerned this observation by Solomon. There was no evidence that ants actually harvested grain. In 1871, however, a British naturalist showed that Solomon had been right after all. . ." How did Solomon know that in 1000 B.C.? How did Solomon CLEARLY, detail a scientific FACT, that was IMPOSSIBLE for him to know in 1000 B.C.? Proverbs 17:22, "A merry heart doeth good like a MEDICINE." An article in The Birmingham News, titled Laughter: Prescription for Health, said, the LATEST medical evidence reveals that, "At some point during laughter, your body issues A PRESCRIPTION from the pharmacy in your brain." How did the writer of Proverbs know that - 3000 YEARS AHEAD OF MEDICAL SCIENCE? Leviticus 17:11, "For the life of the flesh is in the blood." That's the most accurate, scientific statement ever written about the blood! It is the blood that carries on all the life processes of the body. It is the blood that causes growth, builds new cells, grows bone and flesh, stores fat, makes hair and nails. It is the blood that feeds and supports all the organs of the body. If the blood supply be cut off from an arm, that arm will immediately begin to die and rot. It is the blood that repairs the body. It is the blood that clots wounds, that grows new flesh, new skin and even new nerves. It is the blood that fights disease. When they give you a vaccine against a disease, they give you a shot into your blood stream. For thousands of years, doctors treated people by a practice called "bleeding." They thought illnesses could be cured by removing blood. In 1799, less than 200 years ago, George Washington was literally bled to death. They bled poor George four times, the last time they took over a quart of his blood! They didn't know, but they were literally draining away his life by removing his blood. It wasn't until the early 1900's that a man named Dr. Lister discovered that the blood provides the bodies immune system - THE LIFE OF THE FLESH IS IN THE BLOOD! The Birmingham Post Herald, February 26, 1988, told the story of Mike Thomas. Mike was working at a construction site when he fell 70 feet. As he was falling, a cable wrapped around his arm and severed his hand a few inches above the wrist. A fellow worker carried his severed hand to the hospital. Because of serious internal injuries, doctors couldn't at that time reattach Thomas's hand. Instead, they attached his hand to blood vessels on his abdomen wall to "keep it alive". Two months later, the doctors removed it from his abdomen and reattached it to his arm. According to the report, UAB was the first in the nation to perform such a task! Exactly what the Bible said in 1490 B.C.! Keep feeding that hand blood, and it'll stay alive - the LIFE of the FLESH is in the BLOOD! Don't you find that odd? What Moses wrote in 1490 B.C., the brightest minds man can produce, are just now discovering! How can that Amazing Book, written thousands of years ago, by men with such limited knowledge, be so far ahead the best mankind can produce in 6,000 years? ========================================================================= Very well documented coheir, got a couple more.... 1450 B.C. Circumcisions should be performed on the eighth day after birth. Genesis 17:12 Scientists "Discover" this in 1935 (Vitamin K Factor). 950 B.C. Air has weight. Job 28:25 Mathematician Evangelista Torricelli "Discovers" this in 1643. 68 A.D. All things are made up of sub-atomic particles that are invisible to the naked eye. Hebrews 11:3 First "Discovered" by Science in 1897. 950 B.C. Mountains and deep valleys exist on the ocean floor. Job 38:16 and Jonah 2:5-6 The Challenger Expedition "Discovered" this in the 1870's. (Job 38:16) Ocean has fresh water springs 1st witnessed in 1973. Ephesians 3:18 there are 4 Dimensions: Length, Width, Breadth, Height Physicists 20th Century 4 Dimensions: So, you are saying the Bible is a science book.

Quit assuming. I can read for myself and make my own observations. God must have had slavery as part of his plan, and if you think the slavery of the US is different than that of the Bible you are deluded.

Well, it took secular governments like England's and the US to abolish slavery. There was nothing in the bible to admonish us against slavery as practiced in the US (yes some slave holders were excessively cruel which the bible would admonish, but the institution was justified in the Book.)

Bottom line...if a person did not know of the bible, there is no proof in nature that could lead him to Jesus. I've been looking for that proof, but it's nowhere to be found.

Well, argument from incredulity is a subset of argument from ignorance. From reading your posts, Connor, I would never insinuate that you are ignorant, on the contrary you seem sharper than I. I only say ignorance in that we have not found the answers yet. I think that if we would have stopped at God-did-it, we would have missed a lot of wonder - think telescopes, Hubble, LHC etc...Science is the search for God. We will never find him by natural means, but we will only harm ourselves by stopping the search. There are still a lot of us who believe in the bible no matter what we think the evidence tells us. If Enoch can't grasp that well...that's an argument from ignorance. GB.

your point? Really? You actually have PHYSICAL proof, not theories that scientists have, actual, physical proof of humans and dinosaurs living together and you just shrug your shoulders and say 'modern science' as if it's superior. Modern science has no physical proof, just inaccurate tests based on wild assumptions. People crown modern science as if it's almighty and my point being that kids today are taught theories that have already changed and changed again. It's been ten years since I graduated high school and science has changed dramatically since then and continues to change. I see atheists mock the bible. "Oh, the bible says this tribe existed, but there's no proof" and then a few years later archeology finds the evidence. The more we uncover, the more I am certain that the God of the bible is real and the bible is historically accurate, including man living side-by-side with dinosaurs. If you have physical proof of something, why just deny it because it doesn't fit your theory? It actually means that theory is wrong and it's time to go back to the drawing board, not stick your fingers in your ears and scream "I'm not listening!" there is no physical proof of dinasaurs and humans living together. The physical evidence is dinosaurs went extinct 60+million years before man evolved.

your point? ============================================================================ Do you mean like the "corroborating evidence" found in every single Natural History Museum on the Planet that matches the same said Drawings/Sculptures/Architecture? Those ones???? . Nope, I mean physical evidence of Humans and dinosaurs together. Eye-witness accounts are notoriously erroneous. Like I said before, humans can and have imagined and drawn all kinds of fanciful things. Would you take them all to be evidence? Humans are also very susceptible to hallucination

Hello Jerry. I don't exactly adhere to all of Enoch's assumptions. Actually he and I disagree and a lot. But I am a Christian. I've always wondered about this: if the universe came from a point of singularity, and (philosophically speaking) there is a cause/effect relationship behind every event, when and why did the universe begin to expand? There is no creator to "start anything". What got point 0 to point 0.oooo1? It is already begging the question to say that a unit (however small) of matter just existed. But then to say that this "exploded" begs the question, "Why at that point in time?" Why not later? Why not before? For one like myself raised on philosophy the answer is "there is none". It all goes back to Aristotle's Prime Mover (although Christianized, and not as Aquinas supposed). clb The best read I've had on this so far is The Grand Design by Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow. I think the begging of your questions comes from an argument of incredulity. Since you can't imagine it (no offense intended here - I think there are very few who can, myself included) you jump to an imaginable conclusion.

Baloney. The Bible always yields to science and chases after secular morality....the bible was written for men who did not understand the things we do today. It will always be playing catch-up...I think God planned it that way.

There is nothing to systmatically refute. You haven't proven anything. You listed two laws of thermodynamics then, using your "common sense" jumped to God. You can't even prove which god should be the supernatural agent much less if there is one. You are the one making "Baseless Unsupported Fallacious Assertion(s)". Again, Enoch, you need to come with something more than it making sense to you...You hold others to standards that you yourself fall well short of...

That is for God to say - do you have any relatives that have passed away that you expect will perish?

Jerry, Thank for the thought but how do you know how and what to pray for? How can you go wrong if you pray to God that His will will be done in their life?

===================================================================================== These aren't Assumptions sir: 1. The Universe has always existed (in Violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics); 2. The Universe created itself (in Violation of the First Law of Thermodynamics); or 3. The Universe was Created by GOD. The first 2 are Basic Physics using the "PILLARS OF SCIENCE" The 3rd is: The RECKONING Again, Enoch, you are creating false dichotomies - 3. is a non sequitur as it falls outside the physical laws/pillars you cite. You can't make up your own rules just because they make sense in your head - science does not work that way no matter how creative you get with your font.

As someone pointed out, the ancients drew pictures of many fanciful things just like we still do. Don't you think we should have some corroborating physical evidence, or do you put primitive art above modern science? your point?

Your contention is not with me but The Word of God! For the line of thought is thus: Because there 'IS' only One God, One Word, One doctrine it is left for the heart of man to abandon his old self, his old ways, his old thinking and turn to God the totality of need unto God to know His Truth Written down perfectly in His Word... we carry nothing of ourselves to this place and wait upon God to reveal to us The Teaching or Doctrine of His Word... God expects us to do so! However it can only be accomplished by yielding all of what we are to His Word and the faith that results in this obedience! Sure it is hard sure it is difficult The Lord Jesus said it would be Matt 7:13-15 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. KJV reliance becomes a full out dependence upon God after we have sought Him with Jer 29:11-13 11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. 12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. 13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. KJV As God promises His Love and desire of peace for you (as all peoples)it should not be difficult to relinquish your whole being to search for Him in expectation of only One Truth for He 'IS' only One God! There are not multiple pathways but only one Through The Lord Jesus! John 14:6 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. KJV Love, Steven Again, once you start defining belief for someone else it becomes religion not a relationship. I will pray for you.

You are trying to pound your square peg of belief into the round hole of reality...start from the evidence...

Steven - I believe you are a good person, but no matter what you believe, you can't define "proper belief in God". I'm sure you have railed against religions that have espoused this.

Wow, do you listen to yourself?

=========================================================================== What....They just guessed?? They've got thousands of these. Here's a Ton: http://www.genesispark.com/exhibits/evidence/historical/ancient/dinosaur/ I'm starting to worry about you Connor. hahaha, and you expect to be taken seriously when you comment on science?

No, you understand I don't believe the in God the way you do. Just because the is website put a label on me does not label me...

======================================================================== Too funny. Are you trying to irritate me? LOL Would you like me to define your claim? OK...... Jerry says the way we differentiate "Older" vs "Younger" fossils is that..... When we take the temperature (Mercury Thermometer) of each fossil's Left Corpuscular Lobe of the Thoracic Cavity, after eating 3 ounces of Fruity Pebbles, the Temp of the Younger Fossils is 84Kelvin or above. If its Less than 84K, then those Fossils are Older. If we don't have a Thermometer, but we have the Fruity Pebbles, we just guess; then play Lynyrd Skynyrd songs.....Pre-Crash Ones till it's time to go home. Good? So, you are unable to determine if one fossil is older than another? Can you answer without Flinstones references? How are they helpful to a meaningful discussion?

It is astonishing you think that. There are simple experiments... Sorry, but ice is not analagous to the conditions to create fossils.