Shar

Oh, I see why. I was posting inside the quote of another, who had written their post in purple. It continued in that color, when I replied. I will look for that from now on and make sure it posts in black. Thanks for getting back!

Where is the "purple" typing. I have looked over my posts and only see black and I only type in black. Is it coming over as purple to you? Let me know so I can see what I may need to correct. I would not like purple typing too. Just curious.

Satan fell to the earth prior to the fall of man, which is all we can say with any degree of certainty. We do not know how much time transpired between the time Adam was created and when he fell in the Garden of Eden. Satan most likely fell during that parenthesis of time between Adam and Eve's creation and the moment they first encountered satan in the garden. There is NOTHING in the Bible that claims that Satan's fall had to have occurred on a previous, pre-adamite earth. The Gap theory isn't stating that there are gaps between the days of creation. It states that between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2 there is an alleged gap of millions of years and this has been fronted as a reconcilation between evolution and the Bible, as this is supposed to have been when the cave men and dinosaurs lived and when satan fell. The problem is that the Bible makes no room for this, but some people will cling to it anyway. You do not need to believe in evolution to believe there is a gap between verse 1 and 2. Also, it doesn't absolutely propose that it was when cave men and dinosaurs lived. The theory actually proposes there was some form of intelligent social system on earth before Adam and Eve. It could have been an intelligent, capable form of man, not created in G-d's image. It doesn't say it was "form and void." It says it was "formless and void." The word "was" is the correct translation. "Became" is an impoosible translation given the Hebrew grammatical construction, which is why no translation uses the word, "became." The NIV and other translations do translate it as "possibly became". Definitely room for argument.

He was on earth contemporaneosly with Adam. How else would he and Adam been in the Garden at the same time?? And why would I want to "get around" Satan's fall from heaven?? I don't even know what you are trying to accuse me of, there. But you are working from a prophecy and you are trying to fit that prophecy into an historical narrative, so the first mistake you are making is mixing genres. Furthermore, the prophetic word you are working from (Ez. 28:13 and ff) is referring to a man and is using some pretty colorful imagery that needs to be understood in light of that. A lot of people don't have hermeutics as their strong suit, and so I can see where you would make this kind of mistake. Spock is not wrong. This is common in prophecy. It is a near far prophecy. The verses 1-10 refer to a human king. Verses 11-19 refer to an anointed, perfect, guardian cherub in the Garden of Eden at his height of perfection, until he sinned. .I didn't say that. I said it happened in between Adam and Eve's creation and the fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden. Adam and Eve were created on the same day. Absolutely, no support for this conclusion. He could not have a widespread trade in a single day. I think you need to read my posts a little more carefully and not ask me to support claims I didn't make. And I have shown through the very way vv. 1 and 2 are constructed grammatically, that your version is impossible. The author didnt allow for this scenario to be possible and the Hebrew proves it. And so far you have been unable to produce ONE degreed Hebrew scholar or one mainstream translation that contradicts me. I have provided them to you their translations, the sages,etc. Still cannot get around the social system that had to exist for there to be a widespread trade that was the vehicle from which wickedness was found in him, violence and sin. So G-d drove him from the mount of G-d and expelled him.. This statement is wrong because it assumes that had there not been a rebellion, there would not have been a judgement that destroyed the entire pre-adamite earth and if so, there would not have been a need for a recreation and by extension, no need for us. Well, I have news for you. Does not make sense. Sin and rebellion requires G-d's judgment. Does not exclude the necessity to bring forth a man, made in G-d's image, to now take over the dominion of the earth. We were not created to replace satan. This earth is not, "Plan B." We were not created to rule the earth because satan is disqualifed. We were created special by God on purpose. Creation began from a desire of God to have companionship and all that is made is made for us. The entire universe was made for us and us alone. The earth was custom designed out of all of the planets in the universe to house us and to support life. We are not an after thought or a second attempt by God at creating something. Not really. G-d often makes changes when necessary to accomplish his purposes. The creation was never made for us. It was made to give glory to G-d and sing his praises. We are created of Him to give him glory and praise, and do that along with all of his creation. The earth was made for glory as just one of his marvelous works. The fact that God has not destroyed man off the earth and completely wiped the earth out beyond redemption because of sin is itself evidence that He would have never done that with any pre-adamite earth, either. God's nature is all about redemption. God redeems creation. He redeems what is elected to be redeemed. He destroyed all the animals in Noah's flood, but just saved eight people and destroyed the rest of humanity. He destroyed all but Lot in Sodom and Gomorrah. Angels have no redemptive plan. He is not obligated to redeemed, unless he wants to

The reference to Lucifer's glory and perfection is when he is in the Garden of Eden. He was perfect and anointed until, "wickedness was found in you. Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones". The wickedness was as a result of his dishonesty and violence through widespread trade. In order to have a trade, you must have a social system. This social system was comprised of angels, or a being not created in G-d's image, or both. The vehicle of his wickedness and violence was this widespread trade. G-d made Lucifer (meaning "Light-Bearer) perfect in beauty and full of wisdom. He adorned and anointed him like no other. G-d is actually taking up a lamentation ( a mourning, grief and cry ) over him. In Isaiah 14:12, G-d again mourns out "O, How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn. When G-d expelled him and cast him out, he promises that he will come to a terrible end. G-d says he will be a terror. He is a terror. He is now "Ha Satan" (the adversary). He did not take a glorious form in the Garden with Adam and Eve. He used the serpent. We have several references in scripture to the devil being likened as the serpent. Rev. 12:9 " the serpent, called the devil, or Satan..."

I think I will have to agree. It is amazing we discuss these topics on one thread, then turn around, create another thread, and discuss the same thing all over again. I have to echo Solomon in Ecclesiastes "Vanity, Vanity. All is Vanity.

No, it doesn't really strengthen faith at all. In fact, faith doesn't come from science or knowledge. The Bible says that faith comes from God himself through His Word (Rom.1:16, Rom.10:17, Eph. 2:8) My faith did not come by science, it came through G-d. However, my faith IS strengthened when I see the wonders of his creation and universe...and science has had a world of responsibility of bringing it to us to see and observe. There are no Bible verses that point to an old earth existing in the dateless past. There are verses that you have penciled that meaning into that have nothing to do with the age of the earth, but there is actually treatment of that issue in Scripture. We have already addressed this and verses to say differently on the OEC- New Earth thread. YEC cannot be a stumbling block to faith because it points people toward trusting the Word of God. No one loses faith on the grounds of trusting the very Word that God says produces faith in our hearts when we believe it. So this notion that YEC causes people to stumble is a load of hogwash. It is a desperate and irrational line of reasoning. Not really, just talk to and have real relationships with intelligent non-believers and understand why it could be so. It is hard for them to get around. That is why I try to concentrate on the person of Jesus in witnessing and stay away from theses types of debates with them. Plenty of believers love the L-rd, believe in his word, and believe in the possibility of an old earth. There are many Bible verses, along with logical, deductive reasoning, and science to support it. And by the way, the Old Earth view was ORIGINALLY proposed by nonbelievers. OEC isn't rooted in the Bible. The first old earthers in history were nonChristians who didn't beleive the Bible during the "Age of Reason." It was proposed over 200 years before modern science as we know it. For Christians to desperate try to support a view first championed by nonChristians is very disappointing. There you go again, believing that only Christians have knowledge or gifts of reasoning. Actually, there were Jewish sages, of long ago, that believed not only in an old earth, but in a social system on earth before Adam. See Lucifer, the anointed guardian cherub, in the Garden of Eden as a prince and ruler. Ezekiel 28: 12-19.

I have to agree with Spock. You can go to the "OEC New Heavens and New Earth" thread and see the many postings that have been made. Do not want to keep posting it and definitely not on different threads.

75% of churched youth leave the church altogether within two years of graduation from high school. Many of these Christian youth grew up in a social church bubble and their lazy youth leaders never taught them any critical thinking skills, never exposed them to the challeges they would face in college and how to respond to them. As a result many churched youth attend university science classes and their atheistic/agnostic professors convince them that the Bible is wrong, that God didn't create the earth in six days and that Genesis is a fairytale. They graduate from college with a shipwrecked faith and are unable to believe the Bible, not just about Genesis; they can believe any of it. None of it can be trusted. We have one member on this board who is a good example of what I am talking about. She is a young girl just out of university or just about to graduate and she was on fire for Jesus going into college and is a professed atheist now and she credits her atheism, in part to the science professors at her university. OEC puts science in the dirver's seat when it comes to the interpretation of Scripture. It means that the Bible must bow the knee to theories of fallible, little men. It means that science wields more authority than God does, since God's word can't be trusted as a true and accurate record of history. I didn't agree with nonessential. I said I didn't believe that a person had to be YEC in order to be saved. There is quite a bit of difference between saying it is a nonessential issue and saying it is nonessential for salvation. There are all kinds of essential teachings in the Bible that are nonessential for salvation. Do you honestly believe God needs all of us to believe exactly as you do in these nonessential matters in order for us to be effective Christians and ambassadors for Christ? Not at all. But God does expect us to honor and trust His word even when trust His word makes us look foolish in the eyes of the world. Trusting in God's word above everything else DOES make you a more effective Christian and Ambassador for Jesus. In fact, I have never seen an effective Christian who didn’t have that kind of trust. Do you see your light any brighter than theirs? Do you see their belief in these "false doctrines" (your words) in any way hurting their Christian witness? I don't. Do you? The potential is there. You have no idea who all is reading and those who diminish the authority of God’s words in deference to science may be planting seeds that eventually will bring a harvest they didn’t intend. It may not be something you are even aware on this side of eternity. How devestating to find out that someone read your words and agreed that the Bible’s account of creation can’t be trusted to be factual and that maybe one day, down the road, maybe years later that seed is watered by others who don’t think the Bible can be trusted and some day, it germinates and grows in to unbelief, and that person teaches their children the same thing. You never know what kind of harvest will come from seeds of compromise you sow today. I would not want their blood on my hands when I stand before the throne. Look at Abraham. He compromised on God’s word to him and we are still reaping the harvest of that error, 4000 years later. No that doesn’t occur to me because no one’s faith has ever been shipwrecked by those who teach us to trust God’s word. There is not one reported case of someone losing their faith solely based on what the Bible says. I can find scores of people whose faith was shipwrecked when they decided to abandon the biblical record. It didn’t happen overnight, but they end up walking away. OEC is one step down that slope for some people. If someone looks at the Bible and says, I can’t believe that, it is because there is a competing influence that tells them the Bible can’t be trusted to be true. Actually, OEC strengthens faith because there is more scientific evidence to support it and many Bible verses that allude to an old earth and the dateless past. It is more of a stretch to make YEC fit and as Spock said could be a stumbling block to those who are seeking, but cannot get past a mere 24 hour period being the initial creation of the earth. OEC explains it scientifically, with Bible references and does not compromise G-d as the great and wonderful creator; who has been creating from the very, very, very beginning. Before earth was formed.

75% of churched youth leave the church altogether within two years of graduation from high school. Many of these Christian youth grew up in a social church bubble and their lazy youth leaders never taught them any critical thinking skills, never exposed them to the challeges they would face in college and how to respond to them. As a result many churched youth attend university science classes and their atheistic/agnostic professors convince them that the Bible is wrong, that God didn't create the earth in six days and that Genesis is a fairytale. They graduate from college with a shipwrecked faith and are unable to believe the Bible, not just about Genesis; they can believe any of it. None of it can be trusted. We have one member on this board who is a good example of what I am talking about. She is a young girl just out of university or just about to graduate and she was on fire for Jesus going into college and is a professed atheist now and she credits her atheism, in part to the science professors at her university. OEC puts science in the dirver's seat when it comes to the interpretation of Scripture. It means that the Bible must bow the knee to theories of fallible, little men. It means that science wields more authority than God does, since God's word can't be trusted as a true and accurate record of history. I didn't agree with nonessential. I said I didn't believe that a person had to be YEC in order to be saved. There is quite a bit of difference between saying it is a nonessential issue and saying it is nonessential for salvation. There are all kinds of essential teachings in the Bible that are nonessential for salvation. Do you honestly believe God needs all of us to believe exactly as you do in these nonessential matters in order for us to be effective Christians and ambassadors for Christ? Not at all. But God does expect us to honor and trust His word even when trust His word makes us look foolish in the eyes of the world. Trusting in God's word above everything else DOES make you a more effective Christian and Ambassador for Jesus. In fact, I have never seen an effective Christian who didn’t have that kind of trust. Do you see your light any brighter than theirs? Do you see their belief in these "false doctrines" (your words) in any way hurting their Christian witness? I don't. Do you? The potential is there. You have no idea who all is reading and those who diminish the authority of God’s words in deference to science may be planting seeds that eventually will bring a harvest they didn’t intend. It may not be something you are even aware on this side of eternity. How devestating to find out that someone read your words and agreed that the Bible’s account of creation can’t be trusted to be factual and that maybe one day, down the road, maybe years later that seed is watered by others who don’t think the Bible can be trusted and some day, it germinates and grows in to unbelief, and that person teaches their children the same thing. You never know what kind of harvest will come from seeds of compromise you sow today. I would not want their blood on my hands when I stand before the throne. Look at Abraham. He compromised on God’s word to him and we are still reaping the harvest of that error, 4000 years later. No that doesn’t occur to me because no one’s faith has ever been shipwrecked by those who teach us to trust God’s word. There is not one reported case of someone losing their faith solely based on what the Bible says. I can find scores of people whose faith was shipwrecked when they decided to abandon the biblical record. It didn’t happen overnight, but they end up walking away. OEC is one step down that slope for some people. If someone looks at the Bible and says, I can’t believe that, it is because there is a competing influence that tells them the Bible can’t be trusted to be true. The reason youth are leaving the church and not seeking to go there can be for what they perceive as a lack of love, judgmental attitudes and critical spirits. I hear Christians on the radio and TV talk disparagingly of others and especially if they do not agree with them politically or religiously . They point out the sins of the world, but do little to really show the love of Christ to others. They are not warm, welcoming, understanding, seeking the good of their neighbor, being there for those in need, inviting them to their homes and showing hospitality. They are not truly being like their Master. I have, at times been guilty of this behavior, during my Christian life. I wonder how many I have repelled for Christ, rather than attracted for Christ. I hope G-d gives me more time to make it up. It makes me sad to see the state of the Church today. It is hard to sometimes to tell the difference between a Christian and a non-Christian in the US today.

I agree there are scientists who want to disprove the Bible and G-d. There will always be enemies of G-d and we cannot prevent them from seeking their own purposes. Their bent does not invalidate the science. But what a wonder to be able to point to aspects of science in the Bible and see that G-d stated it before man was even able to think of it and discover it. He is the greatest scientist of all! I marvel at ALL the works of His hand.

You're a little late to this party, Shar. I have already demonstrated why the Gap theory has no biblical credibility, despite you and Spock desperately trying to keep it on life support. It cannot be substantiated. All of the evidence for the Gap theory is penciled in by its proponents and has no credibility in the slightest. And as for "scholarship," there is no genuine scholarship behind it. There are some radio and TV preachers that accept it because they want to be respected by their peers, but none of them who have accepted the Gap Theory have ever studied it out, otherwise they would see it for the false doctine that it is and reject it. There are no degreed Hebrew scholars who accept the Gap theory. So say you. So says that fact that you cannot produce ONE degreed Hebrew scholar that says I am wrong. Every translation of the Bible agrees with me, even the NIV translates it the way I have said it should be translated. You cannot provide one mainstream scholar or translation that contradicts what I have said. That's a foregone conclusion. You trust in men, I trust the Holy Word of God. Your views are rooted in baseless, long debunked opinions. My view is based on the Truth of Scripture. God's word has the last word for me. I'll stand by that. But the text doesn't set a timeline for that. You penciled that in yourself. I am not arrogant. I am simply right. There is a difference between arrogance and simply have a better grasp of the facts. You dont have to respond to me. But I will continue to address the false doctrines that come from your posts. Whether you respond or not, is really immaterial. I will simply protect people from being led astray by the false doctrine that you and Shar are promoting. In fact, it would be easier on me if you didnt respond. Well, Shiloh when someone challenges you, can give you points of scripture to support other theories which you cannot and did not fully support, you then can only turn to trying to discredit others by saying they are promoting false doctrine, because they do not accept your very limited, often biased Hebrew, interpretations. G-d has not called you to defend this. We are to defend the "good news" - Salvation has come to all through our L-rd and Savior: Jesus Christ. Defend against those false doctrines that declare that good news otherwise. But for you to put your personal spin on something, swear it to be G-d's truth, declare yourself the expert in every field, from Hebrew, to science, to interpretation of all scripture, is horrendously prideful. Worst yet, to hold out fellow believers in a most disparaging light, because they disagree with YOU is just plain WRONG.

Looking at Genesis 1:2 this way, asking these questions, are the reason I first questioned the validity of the YEC interpretation of Genesis 1, why I eventually turned away from that intepretation, and why I cannot return to it. This is sure a fast moving thread. To be honest Neb, there are some unanswered questions in scripture, and this happens to be one of them. Just questioning a train of thought here, but if science tries to answer questions for God, and if God does not give a clear answer - causing us to turn to science for the answers - where will it end? This is why we are to have faith in Him and His words, especially when scripture is silent, otherwise, the more we lean on science, the less we lean on God. If science is correct because of their proof, then we must accept God does not exist because we lack direct proof to Him, according to science. Personally, I will let my faith in Him be enough to believe His word. I would much rather place my faith in scripture, even if my understanding is wrong and corrected when I see Him, then to not truth scripture and trust science, be wrong and then corrected when I see Him. Just thought I would throw this in the mix because I cannot answer your questions with scripture outside of Proverbs 3:5-6. There is no harm in turning to science for some answers. We know that knowledge is increasing and knowledge is given by G-d. Discovery and proofs in science have often shown the Bible is correct. There are many, many aspects of science in scripture that man, over time, are now discovering. Before man believed the earth was flat, the Bible says "G-d sets above the sphere of the earth". the cycle of weather patterns, the unhealthiness of mold and how to recognize and destroy it, etc. See, faith is not only present in our belief in the Bible, but faith is present in every aspect of our lives. Even science has its aspects of faith. I cannot see the air, but I know it exists. I have proof from science, even though I do not see it. If the scriptures appear silent, they may well not be. It may be through science and knowledge that we are given a greater insight to the invisible or past unknowns. We have to weigh the science in correlation to G-d and His word. What is not fully known, may sometime be more clearly revealed in time. We do not need to compromise our faith in Him by looking further into science.

"modern science" overwhelmingly espouses evolution, so I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion. Evolution isn't science. It is an untested hypothesis. Modern science and evolution aren't the same thing. Creation is not science either given its super-natural aspect. Should we leave both out? Could you read a Biology text and redact any of it that relies on evolution without having the text be meaningless? What you will find on this website that there are individuals who believe in a Young Earth and Universe (YEC) and those of us who believe in an Old Earth and Universe (OEC). Those of us who believe in OEC believe that aspects of science can support the Bible. We do not believe science is in great conflict with the Bible. We do not believe, as do some YEC, that science is untrustworthy and very flawed.

The Gap Theory is not without considerable Biblical references, scholarly support and ancient Jewish belief. It is just that YEC do not want to consider that. They too are guilty of the distortion of scriptures they accuse OEC of doing, by seeking to fit every point of scripture into a YEC model. So, you may say it is worthless, pointless or of no Biblical basis, (say the YEC), but it can be substantiated. The fact remains there are going to be differences of opinions and interpretation. No single one holds the key to that interpretation, even if they think so. We simply need to be open to consider, investigate without a personal bias or agenda, and see this as becoming more informed and not as having to win or defend an argument.

Nebula, I posted a series of three posts on the OEC - New Heaven and Earth thread. Go to the top of page 3. We have had a big discussion over what Spock posted and what Shiloh says is conjecture. There are many Bible verses, scholars and ancient sages who not only support an old earth, but a social system here on earth before Adam. Verses that show Lucifer was in the Garden of Eden as a prince and ruler before Adam, the sin of Lucifer and angels, along with the resulting judgment from G-d - a worldwide flood. This might help you understand what Spock is getting at.

I learned Hebrew from both a Rabbi and am also university trained in Hebrew as well. I both read and speak it, as well. I am still working on fluency in conversational Hebrew as well. But the fact is that I am working from the Hebrew, not only from translations. But there is a differenc between what a word can mean and what it DOES mean in a given context. In some other contexts, hi-ya does mean became. But there is NO way hi-ya can be translated "became" when following a "vav" disjunctive. You can reject it if you want, but you are wrong to do so. I don't know of any translators that agree with you. And by the way, most of the "scholars" that side with your view I have found to be evangelical radio and TV preachers. They are not scholars of Hebrew. This is not about what words mean, but how words are used. The angels are often characterized as "stars." Word usage trumps word meaning. Furthermore, the verse in Job is a poetic synonomous parallel and needs to handled like poetry. I will name a few of the translations I know that state the word can possibly mean became. This lies in their footnotes. The International Version, the King James, the Interlinear Bible. There are more, but I have to research for them. Can you tell me the actual resources you used for the translation of the Hebrew you reference?

Angels created before man and before the earth. Angels have rank and order. They can be messengers, protect His servants, serve before the throne, do the will of G-d, lead out before G-d’s presence, conduct warfare, deliver judgment, deliver G-d’s people, participate in worship, have positions of authority, protect and rule nations. For example, Daniel 12:1. Michael is called the great prince and ruler who protects and stands for the people – Israel. There are different types of angels – archangels, cherubs, seraphim, princes, rulers, etc. Lucifer was in the Garden of Eden before the Fall with a possible social system that existed before our current social system. Ezekiel 28:11-15. This passage is exclusively talking about an anointed cherub and not a mere man. Words in this passage such as: He was the model of perfection, full of wisdom and beauty. He was in the Garden of Eden. Every precious stone adorned him. His settings and crown were of gold. He was anointed as the Guardian Cherub, he was on the Holy Mountain of G-d, and he was blameless in his ways from the day he was created. (NO MAN fits that description) He was anointed, which meant he was a king. Throughout the Bible, kings are anointed. G-d set the Cherub over the Earth, in the Garden of Eden, to protect, overshadow it and rule it. Ezekiel 28:15-19…until wickedness was found in him, filled with violence and he sinned. So, G-d drove him out from the Mountain of G-d, and expelled “you, O Guardian Cherub”. (Jesus even says to his disciples he saw Satan falling from Heaven in Lk. 10:18). His heart became proud on account of his beauty and his wisdom became corrupted because of his splendor. “So, I threw you to the earth and made you a spectacle before kings. By his many sins and dishonest trade, he desecrated his sanctuaries (angels engage in worship) the symbolism of him losing his glory, and being assigned to Hell fire. “All who knew you among the peoples shall be appalled at you; you shall be terrors, and you will not be forever.” Lucifer ruled a social system here on Earth, in the Garden of Eden, before Adam. This social system had a structure, trade, kings, and a people. However, these peoples were not created in the image of G-d. Many sages of Judaism, who studied the Word many centuries before us, and the Talmud discuss the existence of beings living before Adam. They are described as human in shape and intelligence, but lacking the neshama “soul” to make them human. This great sin, wickedness and rebellion resulted in judgment from G-d with a devastating flood, different from Noah’s flood. I will contrast the two floods in the next post. Will try to post on Sunday. A Previous Social System - 2 Pe.3:5 “But they are ignorant, and forget that long ago by G-ds word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world (social system) of that time was deluged and perished (completely destroyed). By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the Day of Judgment and destruction of ungodly men. Here we see there was a previous world system that completely perished and the present heavens and earth are different. The prophets of the O.T. often spoke of situations that have a “Near – Far” implication. Such as Isaiah has numerous references to Antiochus Epiphanies when he set up the desolation of Abomination in the temple, before the Maccabees revolted and claimed it back, as well as to the future AntiChrist, who will do the same. The following in Jeremiah could have that kind of implication. Je. 4:23-26 “I beheld the earth and, lo. It was without form and void; and the heavens and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they quaked, and all the hills were shaken. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities were broken down at the presence of the L-rd, and by His fierce anger”. This present earth has NEVER had man completely gone. It never will. However, here there is a reference that “there was no man (He. “ayin” – to not exist). There were animals, vegetation, and cities mentioned, but all were destroyed at G-d’s fierce anger. These events occurred; they are not indicated as a possible future event, because man will continue to exist on this earth after G-d’s wrath is poured out during the end times. This seems indicative of G-d’s judgment on a prior social system on earth before Adam. My Resonse: The Bible knows of no “social system among the angels.” You are making a lot of assumptions for which there is no biblical claim. Angels do not relate to each other socially. Michael is called a prince, ruler and archangel. So those probably synonymous terms and not an actual ranking system. There are numerous passages that refer to different types of angels and their function and rank. The word "Archangel" that is used in the Bible means "first in order". We read in 1 Peter 3 that Jesus went into Heaven and is at G-d's right hand with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him. There are different types of angels, like cherubim, seraphims, archangels, messengers. They have different functions. They have an army which has rank. Go do a study on angels and you will find there are about 9 ranks. Even the fallen angels have a ranking - Ep. 6:12. Lucifer was anointed, but that does not mean he was a king. The word anointed doesn’t mean king. Kings were anointed, but not all people who were anointed by God were kings. The Bible never refers to Satan as a “king” over the angels or anyone else. Anointed means that he was specially chosen for a specific task Anointing is also an act for kingship. David was anointed, Saul was anointed and Jesus will be anointed when he returns here to rule as King. See examples in the O.T. . In reference to 2 Peter. 3:5, you appear to be trying place the deluge back to the pre-adamite earth, but Peter is actually referring to Noah’s deluge and calls the earth “the old world” using the same reference in the previous reference to Noah’s deluge in Chapter two. The evidence is further contained in the context in that Peter is refuting mockers who claim that Jesus isn’t returning and all things continue as they always have. But Peter makes the point that all things are not as they always have been, and he refereces Noah’s deluge, the old world that was formed out of the (Gk. Between) the waters was subject to a great deluge when the people of that day were least expecting it. It came upon them suddenly took them by surprise. The coming of the Lord is comparable to that, and so Peter references those people in verse 7 as awaiting judgment. In 1 Peter, whenever he refers to Noah's flood, he says Noah's flood and individuals saved. In 2 Pe. 3:5 he does not say Noah's flood, but most says the world was completely destroyed by water ( the world of long ago) and there is no reference to people being saved. Specifically, he then talks about this present world and it being reserved for destruction by fire If Peter were referring to men who had no soul, they would not be subject to judgment. They would have been nothing but animals and I would not rely on the Talmud to interpret the New Testament. That is another grievous error you are making. Really? But I said, they were not made in G-d's image. They can intelligent, functional beings, but not be in His image, or requiring a redemption plan. Angels are not made in G-d's image and they are far from not being intelligent and capable. They certainly are not mere animals. Jer. 4:23-26 is not about the earth, but is using hyperbolic references to the state of Judah’s destruction at the hands of the Babylonians. He is trying to express the level of devestation in the strongest terms he can. Tohu v’bohu are very strong terms and make the point about the degree of devestation that was heaped upon Judah by the Babylonians. You did not read thoroughly the near-far possibility and did not address the statement that there was no man. He did not exist on the earth, yet there were cities, animals and vegetation. This earth will never not have man on it. Notice what the rest of Jeremiah says AFTER verse 26 in the same prophecy: Common duality in near-far prophecy. For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it. The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein. Jer 4:27-29 It is clear that the prophecy is not describing the earth but is describing the desolation of Judah using imagery drawn from Genesis to communicate just how bad things are at that point in Judah’s history.

John 1:1 - In the beginning, (Gk. arche = first in order, time and place) was the Word and the Word was G-d….all things were made by Him. Ge.1:1 – In the beginning, (He. reshiyth = first in order, time and place), G-d created the heavens and the earth. The word for heavens, “shameh – shamayim” means, the higher realm where the celestial bodies revolve, G-d’s abode and sky. The word “and” is used many times in Ge. 1-2, to separate different acts of G-d. The “and” of verse 1:2 shows the work of verse 2 is entirely independent of the work in verse 1. (My response): The problem here is that Gen. 1:1 doesn’t refer to a creative act prior to verse 2. You are exactly correct in saying that the word “and” makes Gen. 1:1 completely independent from verse 2, but not for the reasons you think. The and is a “vav’ disjunctive in Hebrew because it is followed by a nount (haeretz). That means that it is in no way a continuation of thought expressed in verse 1. Verse 1 is nothing more than a synopsis, an introductory sentence. It is expanded on by vv. 2-31. Not asking to be rude, but can you tell me your source of Hebrew? You stated you consider yourself qualified to address the Hebrew. Can you tell me how you qualify? I read and speak Hebrew, but I would not described myself as an expert. I must rely on Hebrew scholars and translation experts of the Bible, who reference down to the earliest manuscripts. My references are from literal translations of the Hebrew Biblical text. We will have points of translational differences because obviously we are not using the same resources. Right but the problem is that what you have in Job is poetry and it uses “morning stars” and “angels” in a synonymous parallel where the first thought is restated in different words. The morning stars are not actual physical stars, they are angels being referred to in a poetic or symbolic way. The actual word, as I referenced, means blazing star. Words, even if they are sometimes used in poetry do not mean they are necessarily symbolic, but are actual. The word “ha-ya” in Gen. 1:2 CANNOT be translated “became.” It cannot be cause the “vav” at the beginning of the verse is followed by a noun and I said earlier this makes it a vav disjunctive. It is the beginning of an entirely new line of thought indepdent of verse one. Only if the “vav” were followed by a verb could ha-ya be translated as “became.” “Was” is the ONLY correct tranlsation of ha-ya for Gen. 1:2 Already stated scholars and bible translators who state it can mean "became". We have already been through this on the word.

Carefully read the referenced scriptures and the meaning of the Hebrew words, particularly the difference in the meaning for "created" and "made" in Ge. 1. "Created" means the creative process, "made" does not. Made is more a calling forth, appoint or gather what already exists. You rebuttal is weak. It does not address the numerous references in the Bible that can support this possibility. I just see random quoting of scripture.

Well Steven, I did not devise this or originally write this. It was not from my imagination. There are many, many Christian scholars and believers who dug down into and searched out the scriptures to consider this as a possibility. If you think 1 Cor. 10:1-12 is the only purpose of the O.T., then you have missed its true purpose. All of it is the true holy scriptures of G-d. When Jesus, the Apostles, and Paul referred to scripture and "it is written", they referred only to the O.T. The N.T. never existed. You can have the O.T. without the N.T., but you cannot have the N.T. without the O.T. All throughout the N.T. it makes references back to the O.T. We, in the church, have neglected a great deal of the scriptures that Jesus, the Apostles and Paul upheld. The history of the N.T. shows that it was not brought together until about the 4th century A.D. under a council by Constantine. Many other books and letters were considered, but this council decided not to include them. We know from Paul's writings that there is a letter to the Corinthians that was lost. We have some of Paul's letters, but we have none of the ones the believing communities sent to him. So we don't get all the complete picture from his letters. We cannot ignore the O.T. All of G-d's word is inspired and requires study. As far as this Pre-Adam possibility being another pathway that Satan would like to accomplish. This does not take away from G-d's purpose, glory, creation, value of man or His redemptive purpose. As a matter of fact, this should make you rejoice that you are created in G-d's image and far above any creation He has ever created. Most of all, He provided a means of redemption for us! I do not, nor do I advocate, people to swallow everything they read or hear, but I am saying do not be afraid to thoroughly study before you make any judgment to its lack of possibility. Like I said, this theory has been around for hundreds of years.

OK, This is the third and final posting to support a previous social system before Adam and a restoration of rather than an original creation of earth in Genesis 1. The Judgment of G-d for this sin and rebellion. This judgment resulted in a flood, different from Noah’s flood. We will call this flood, Lucifer’s flood. This resulted in the complete destruction of this world and its social system. 2 Pe.3:5 “But they are ignorant, and forget that long ago by G-ds word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world (social system) of that time was deluged and perished (completely destroyed). By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the Day of Judgment and destruction of ungodly men Ge. 1:2 - ..and darkness (He. “Choshek” = darkness, misery, death, destruction, obscurity) was upon the face of the deep. Obscuring the sun and subsequent darkness are always a result of judgment, never of creation. See Ge. 6-8; Ex. 10:21; Je. 4:23; Joel 2:31, Rev. 6:12; 8:12 Ge.1:3 – And G-d said, “Let there be light (He. “owr” = happiness, joy, morning, sun). He is dispelling misery and death and calling for the good and the light of the existing sun. Now, the account in Ge. 1 becomes the act of restoring, not an original creation. The word created (He. “Bara” = the formative, creative process). This is only used in Ge.1 in verse 1 for the creation of the heavens and earth and then not till verses 21 and 27 when G-d creates animals and Adam. The word G-d uses in the other verses is made (He. “asah” = appoint, bring forth, gather,) or let (He. “hayah” = exist, come to pass, become). In these other verses, He is calling forth what already existed. Ge. 1 - What would happen to an earth that had no sun and was covered by water? It would be a solid frozen ice ball. And the Spirit of G-d moved (He. “rachaph” = move and shake) upon the face of the waters. He broke up the ice. Then, He proceeded to separate the waters (verses 6-8) and then the earth (dry land appeared (verses 9-10). The literal Hebrew reads “..and let appear the dry land” the word appear (He. “raah” – behold, look on, appear) The earth was covered by waters as a result of the flood brought about by the judgment of G-d for Lucifer’s sin and rebellion. This flood, Lucifer’s flood, is different from Noah’s flood in that: The earth was completely laid waste and empty, made totally dark, no light from heaven, all vegetation destroyed, no continual abating of the waters, waters taken off in one day, all fish destroyed, no fowls, no animals left, no social system left, (2 Pe.3:6), no ark made to save life. Conclusion - There are too many more verses that can support a previous social system here on earth before Adam. There is a case to support this. Besides, G-d says His nature and His creation testify of Him. We have science that can show us that the age of the present earth and universe is much greater than 10,000 years. YE have to ask, “if G-d really is the Creator He claims to be in John 1:1, creating from the beginning, and He calls himself the Ancient of Days, what was G-d doing prior to the last 10,000 years?” What was He doing for eons and eons and eons and eons? OE and YE will never agree, but at least we can understand why each of us differs and what can lead to different viewpoints, while still being a believing and loving body.

Fair enough. Can you provide any biblical references outside of Genesis that tell us that there was a pre-adamite earth that was judged by God and destroyed? Can you also provide the verses that indicate that it was only angels and not men who were inhabiting this pre-adamite earth? Shiloh, Here is Post One: John 1:1 - In the beginning, (Gk. arche = first in order, time and place) was the Word and the Word was G-d….all things were made by Him. Ge.1:1 – In the beginning, (He. reshiyth = first in order, time and place), G-d created the heavens and the earth. The word for heavens, “shameh – shamayim” means, the higher realm where the celestial bodies revolve, G-d’s abode and sky. The word “and” is used many times in Ge. 1-2, to separate different acts of G-d. The “and” of verse 1:2 shows the work of verse 2 is entirely independent of the work in verse 1. Job 38:7 – The stars and angels were created before the earth. Previously, G-d asks Job, “where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? …. “when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of G-d shouted for joy? “All the sons of G-d”. This included Lucifer being present as one of the sons of G-d and before his fall. The word “stars” (He. kowkab) means a blazing star. Actual suns. The phrase “sons of G-d” is often referred to in scriptures as angels. See Job 1:6 & 2:1. Psalm 19, speaks of how creation speaks, sings and declares. G-d did not create the earth formless and void. Is.45:18 states “…G-d made the earth not void (empty), but to be inhabited. Ge: 1:2 And the earth was formless and void. The word “was (He., “hayah”) means to become, come to pass. Meaning the earth became formless and void. The word “formless and void” (He. tohu va bohu) means waste and empty. Something happened to make the earth go from originally created complete to waste and empty. We have already disagreed over the Hebrew, but I will have to go with the most reliable translations of the Bible, where hundreds of scholars agreed that “was” can mean became in this passage. Next Post will deal with Lucifer and the possible social system that may have existed on earth before Adam. I will refrain from making any responses until you have presented your case in full. Let me know when you have completed the last section of information. POST TWO: Lucifer and angels Angels created before man and before the earth. Angels have rank and order. They can be messengers, protect His servants, serve before the throne, do the will of G-d, lead out before G-d’s presence, conduct warfare, deliver judgment, deliver G-d’s people, participate in worship, have positions of authority, protect and rule nations. For example, Daniel 12:1. Michael is called the great prince and ruler who protects and stands for the people – Israel. There are different types of angels – archangels, cherubs, seraphim, princes, rulers, etc. Lucifer was in the Garden of Eden before the Fall with a possible social system that existed before our current social system. Ezekiel 28:11-15. This passage is exclusively talking about an anointed cherub and not a mere man. Words in this passage such as: He was the model of perfection, full of wisdom and beauty. He was in the Garden of Eden. Every precious stone adorned him. His settings and crown were of gold. He was anointed as the Guardian Cherub, he was on the Holy Mountain of G-d, and he was blameless in his ways from the day he was created. (NO MAN fits that description) He was anointed, which meant he was a king. Throughout the Bible, kings are anointed. G-d set the Cherub over the Earth, in the Garden of Eden, to protect, overshadow it and rule it. Ezekiel 28:15-19…until wickedness was found in him, filled with violence and he sinned. So, G-d drove him out from the Mountain of G-d, and expelled “you, O Guardian Cherub”. (Jesus even says to his disciples he saw Satan falling from Heaven in Lk. 10:18). His heart became proud on account of his beauty and his wisdom became corrupted because of his splendor. “So, I threw you to the earth and made you a spectacle before kings. By his many sins and dishonest trade, he desecrated his sanctuaries (angels engage in worship) the symbolism of him losing his glory, and being assigned to Hell fire. “All who knew you among the peoples shall be appalled at you; you shall be terrors, and you will not be forever.” Lucifer ruled a social system here on Earth, in the Garden of Eden, before Adam. This social system had a structure, trade, kings, and a people. However, these peoples were not created in the image of G-d. Many sages of Judaism, who studied the Word many centuries before us, and the Talmud discuss the existence of beings living before Adam. They are described as human in shape and intelligence, but lacking the neshama “soul” to make them human. This great sin, wickedness and rebellion resulted in judgment from G-d with a devastating flood, different from Noah’s flood. I will contrast the two floods in the next post. Will try to post on Sunday. A Previous Social System - 2 Pe.3:5 “But they are ignorant, and forget that long ago by G-ds word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world (social system) of that time was deluged and perished (completely destroyed). By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the Day of Judgment and destruction of ungodly men. Here we see there was a previous world system that completely perished and the present heavens and earth are different. The prophets of the O.T. often spoke of situations that have a “Near – Far” implication. Such as Isaiah has numerous references to Antiochus Epiphanies when he set up the desolation of Abomination in the temple, before the Maccabees revolted and claimed it back, as well as to the future AntiChrist, who will do the same. The following in Jeremiah could have that kind of implication. Je. 4:23-26 “I beheld the earth and, lo. It was without form and void; and the heavens and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they quaked, and all the hills were shaken. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities were broken down at the presence of the L-rd, and by His fierce anger”. This present earth has NEVER had man completely gone. It never will. However, here there is a reference that “there was no man (He. “ayin” – to not exist). There were animals, vegetation, and cities mentioned, but all were destroyed at G-d’s fierce anger. These events occurred; they are not indicated as a possible future event, because man will continue to exist on this earth after G-d’s wrath is poured out during the end times. This seems indicative of G-d’s judgment on a prior social system on earth before Adam.

Fair enough. Can you provide any biblical references outside of Genesis that tell us that there was a pre-adamite earth that was judged by God and destroyed? Can you also provide the verses that indicate that it was only angels and not men who were inhabiting this pre-adamite earth? Shiloh, Here is Post One: John 1:1 - In the beginning, (Gk. arche = first in order, time and place) was the Word and the Word was G-d….all things were made by Him. Ge.1:1 – In the beginning, (He. reshiyth = first in order, time and place), G-d created the heavens and the earth. The word for heavens, “shameh – shamayim” means, the higher realm where the celestial bodies revolve, G-d’s abode and sky. The word “and” is used many times in Ge. 1-2, to separate different acts of G-d. The “and” of verse 1:2 shows the work of verse 2 is entirely independent of the work in verse 1. Job 38:7 – The stars and angels were created before the earth. Previously, G-d asks Job, “where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? …. “when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of G-d shouted for joy? “All the sons of G-d”. This included Lucifer being present as one of the sons of G-d and before his fall. The word “stars” (He. kowkab) means a blazing star. Actual suns. The phrase “sons of G-d” is often referred to in scriptures as angels. See Job 1:6 & 2:1. Psalm 19, speaks of how creation speaks, sings and declares. G-d did not create the earth formless and void. Is.45:18 states “…G-d made the earth not void (empty), but to be inhabited. Ge: 1:2 And the earth was formless and void. The word “was (He., “hayah”) means to become, come to pass. Meaning the earth became formless and void. The word “formless and void” (He. tohu va bohu) means waste and empty. Something happened to make the earth go from originally created complete to waste and empty. Next Post will deal with Lucifer and the possible social system that may have existed on earth before Adam.