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Tristen

Worthy Ministers
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Everything posted by Tristen

  1. I don’t think any informed person seriously suggests that the Bible become our sole source of scientific knowledge. Prior to the late 1700s, most scientific research was conducted within the Biblical-theistic faith framework. Around that time, some scientists (i.e. James Hutton and contemporaries) proposed and alternate faith framework – now called naturalism (the concept that only natural explanations can qualify as truth). Since then, naturalism has become the default faith perspective from which most scientific endeavours are conducted. As a Christian (and creationists), I merely propose that the Biblical account of reality continues to provide a logically valid framework from within which legitimate science can be conducted. Opinions and speculations regarding where we would be as a species depend largely upon which faith perspective we choose to prefer.
  2. I agree that vague, equivocal language is a major problem for the creation/evolution debate. Does “evolution” mean the General Theory of Evolution (that all life on earth is related through a series of common ancestors), or the suite of concepts that often find themselves under the 'umbrella' of evolution (such as natural selection, speciation, genetic mutations, common ancestry etc.), or does it simply any heritable change in a population? Of all these, I as a creationist, only dispute the claim that Common Ancestry (along with its associated time frames) is the only scientifically valid interpretation of the available evidence. So, for example, when someone presents evidence of natural selection as evidence of evolution, they contribute nothing to the debate – because I have no problem with the concept of natural selection. I propose the use of more specific (and therefore more accurate) language. If you mean Natural Selection, then say “Natural Selection”. When you mean Common Ancestry, say “Common Ancestry”.
  3. Enjoyed reading this....did you come up with this? Just a cursory look....busy this morning, so I'll give it some attention later. "The claim that unfalsifiable means unscientific is debatable." No it actually isn't debatable @ ALL..... 'Scientific Evidence: consists of observations and EXPERIMENTAL RESULTS that serve to support, refute, or modify a scientific hypothesis or theory, when collected and interpreted in accordance with the SCIENTIFIC METHOD.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence That means it has to satisfy these 4 Tenets: Observable Measurable/Testable Repeatable Falsifiable Hi Enoch, Yes, I wrote this based on my knowledge of the issue studied as a creationist for several decades (so some of the concepts are obviously not mine). Regarding whether scientific means falsifiable. Science only works when it is founded upon and justified by logic. All scientific ideas and definitions are therefore subject to logical scrutiny. In the 1930s, eminent science philosopher, Sir Karl Popper, proposed that to qualify as scientific, a claim must be falsifiable. This proposition is based on the idea that scientific confidence can only be legitimately attributed through a claim surviving direct observational scrutiny. One of the problems with this standard is that claims about the past are not subject to direct observational scrutiny. Therefore by this standard, all claims regarding the past are rendered unscientific; including Standard Cosmology (incorporating Big Bang theory), Common Ancestry and creationism. Scientists work around this limitation by employing indirect investigation methods; namely by formulating models of the putative effects of their hypothesis, then testing the currently available evidence against the model (i.e. not the hypothesis itself). Consistency between the evidence and the model only legitimately increases confidence in the strength of the model – it does not logically contribute to confidence in the hypothesis itself. Any attempt to attribute scientific confidence to any past claim is to commit the logical fallacy known as Affirming the Consequent (because multiple causes can be responsible for identical outcomes – so it is impossible to determine the specific unobserved cause by observing the outcome alone). So the claim that unfalsifiable means unscientific is indeed debatable (since a large portion of what is currently labelled science involves investigating unfalsifiable hypotheses). My only personal requisite is that terminology be used consistently. If unfalsifiable means unscientific, then all claims regarding the unobserved past are unscientific (including the secular models). And so long as there is no attempt to equate either unfalsifiable or unscientific with “untrue”, then logical consistency can be maintained.
  4. Whilst secular cosmologists like to romanticise our observations of the universe as “looking back in time”, the scientific reality is that we only actually, directly observe are photons of light as they are captured or viewed from Earth on their journey through space. The history of the universe is thereby modelled based on assumptions (logical extrapolations) about the unobserved history of those photons. All models of the universe (including the secular Standard Cosmology model) are therefore necessarily formulated around layers of hypotheticals. For example; the original Big Bang theory was a mathematical reversal of our observations of an expanding universe. But the original mathematical model didn’t fit subsequent observations of uniform cosmic background radiation. So the model was changed to include Inflation; a proposal that the initial Big Bang was contained to a small area followed by a massively rapid expansion, and subsequent slowing down, of the universe (without any proposed cause for either expansion or slowing or any direct observation of the event – but fits the math and is therefore now part of the model). Then it was discovered that around 83% of the matter in the universe needed to hold galaxies together by gravity was missing. So a scientifically unobserved substance called Dark Matter was proposed. And even though Dark Matter has never been scientifically observed (a necessary condition of legitimate scientific confidence), proponents of this model constantly tell the community that “we know it’s there”. Due to the gravitational effect of all this matter, scientists expected that the expansion of the universe would be slowing down. However observations indicate that the expansion of the universe is accelerating. We now call the scientifically unobserved energy driving this acceleration Dark Energy. Now this model may be completely correct, or completely false (or perhaps some of each). We cannot go back in time to make the necessary observations required to verify any aspect of this model. And that makes it unfalsifiable. No current observation could necessitate the complete rejection of the model. Any seemingly contrary observation could be rendered impotent by the claim that “we haven’t figured out how this evidence fits our model yet”. And if we are fair, there does exist a logical possibility that some future discovery or idea may reconcile the evidence to the model. But it is this very possibility that allows us to set aside seemingly contrary observations/facts and renders the model unfalsifiable. This applies equally to both secular and creationist models of reality. The claim that unfalsifiable means unscientific is debatable. However, neither unfalsifiable nor unscientific mean “logically impossible” or “necessarily untrue”. Any accusation of unscientific or unfalsifiable only speaks logically to our capacity to test a claim - but not in any sense to the possible truth of a claim. The foundational source of the creationist model is the Bible. The current favoured model of creationists combines the Biblical claim that “God stretched out the heavens” with the implications on time of Einstein’s relativity. Simply; as space was “stretched”, so was time (called time dilation) such that the space stretched away from the Earth is actually older than space on/around Earth. That is, as stretched space results in more space, stretched time results in more time. Regarding the alleged creationist models presented in the article. Models 1 & 2: As a creationist for over 2 decades, I don’t ever recall hearing either of these arguments. To present these as typical creationist models therefore employs logically fallacious Strawman reasoning. As presented, model 1 itself is an example of the logical fallacy called Unsupported Assertion. No effort is made by the author to provide the supporting arguments for the claim – so the article immediately demonstrates a lack of rational objectivity. The rebuttal of both models heavily incorporates Innuendo and Unsupported Assertion (both logical fallacies). Unsupported counter-claims do not constitute a rational rebuttal of any position. Models 3 & 4: Creationists once considered the Cdk issue to be a possibility. However this argument is now broadly rejected by creationists because it raises more problems than it solves. Note the Innuendo in the statement “the velocity of light was infinite or at least millions of times faster than it is now, then slowed down and conveniently stabilized at the current value” – Yet replace “light” with “space”, and you have the secular concept of Inflation (which has been readily incorporated into the secular model). Model 5: This is a valid attempt by a Physicist to model creationism. Dr. Humphreys freely admits that the model is imperfect. The secular model also contains many imperfections; none of which have warranted a wholesale rejection of secular cosmology. The main rebuttal used by the author is that the some concepts utilised by Dr. Humphreys lack direct observational support. Have they considered that the same is true for the Big Bang itself, as well as Inflation, Dark Matter and Dark Energy (i.e. the entire secular model)? All cosmology models are highly speculative and therefore subject to legitimate scrutiny and criticism. Model 6: Oddly, the author himself points out that this model does not represent the informed creationist position and that the problems with this model are essentially theological – not scientific. Even though I don’t subscribe to this model, I think this model is logically viable in the sense that God could have created a mature universe without any deception involved. The inconsistencies stem from our interpretations of the observations – not from what the Bible claims. God creating mature people is not a deception about their lack of infant history; even though contemporary observations of adults would indicate a childhood. God creating mature (fruiting) flora does not represent a deception about the history of the plants. Another model that would reconcile these potential problems would involve God winding the physical universe forward independently of time - In the same way that winding a clock forward represents a physical change, but doesn’t actually alter time. The author then concludes with Innuendo; “Even though creationists claim they have the truth, they contradict each other as well as science” – seemingly unaware that both the Christian belief and the scientific method explicitly permit consideration and debate of all ideas. Our claim to “have the truth” is a faith claim about the Bible – not a scientific claim about models formulated around it. So this statement represents yet another Strawman fallacy. Model 9: (not really a model - but a claim demonstrating a logical weakness in the presentation of scientific confidence beyond what has been scientifically observed). Every claim regarding the history of the photon prior to its observation is assumed; how far and fast it has travelled, what lies between the vast amount of space between its origin and the Earth, assumptions regarding how the properties of light are impacted over such large amounts of distance and time, and how those properties should be interpreted. We extrapolate several hundreds of years of observations to billions of years of history. Any hypothesis beyond observation therefore necessarily employs assumption. Assumptions are common in science. They only become problematic when they are ignored; resulting in exagerated levels scientific confidence. Assumptions may be rationally justifiable - but until claims are verified through observation they remain assumptions. Models 7, 8 & 10 do not represent the informed creationist position. The author of the presented rebuttal demonstrates that they have not given fair or objective consideration to the actual creationist position - and therefore should not be considered a reliable source of information.
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