Matt36

Enoch, i have been a pre tribber for over 25 years. I have only just now in the last 6 months discovered i was wrong. At first i didnt know what the pre wrath view was just that i started to believe from my bible reading that the rapture could not be pre trib. This is when i decided to fullu investigate the issue and learnt about the pre wrath view. The whole reason i came here to this forum was the have the pre wrath view put to scrutiny. I have been open to the fact that the pre wrath view could be wrong. But you know what, you have actually increased my faith in it because nearly everything you write is either church doctrine or scripture out of context. I am now stronger in th pre wrath view as nobody has been able to disassemble it using scripture. So thanks for all you guys input. Ill leave you a clue to why you are incorrect in post 202. Who is Jesus talking about concerning the tribulation and who is Jesus talking about concerning the great tribulation. I KNEW you would say i didnt have it in chronological order, i was waiting for that. Read the scripture again Enoch. But ive given up on discussing things with you because you are just argueing and not discussing with a view to find what is scriptural correct.

Your incorrect Enoch. But im not going to show you why because you are not interested, neither do you still comprehend 90% of anything i say because i dont believe you are listening to me.

Yes you are correct. I can tell you have been reading the bible and not listening to "Church doctrines" which are full of holes. For the record im pre wrath. This means we will be present until the rapture in REV7 that is if we even make it to the rapture and we dont have our heads lopped off before hand. The Day of the Lord starts on the same Day as the rapture. This is Gods wrath. We are not appointed to Gods wrath. The time before this is satans wrath. We are at times to be subject to his wrath for testing purposes

============================================================================ Thanks for the color commentary....... And 8 Conjured/Baseless Unsupported Assertions. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Christ exists in @ least 5 Dimensions, Right? Well if you use "Reasoning" (Basic Inductive/Deductive) and a dash of Critical Thinking Skills you can come up with a reasonable conclusion. Ya See, Jesus "In The Flesh" after the Resurrection could enter and leave a 6-Sided Room without anyone noticing. Get it? Sort of the same concept here. We put Two (or more) Independent Streams of thought together into a coherent conclusion. The First Clue is the term "he". The second thought is the Term "Restrainer" or Restraining "evil" or satan. Then we look @ Scripture in TOTO to see what and or who has the power to do this and has done this very act in the past. As it turns out, we have the Book of JOB. This Book quite demonstrably shows satan is only "Restrained" by Almighty GOD!! In other words, satan can only go so far as what GOD will allow...which is "Stamp on the Forehead" clear just from a cursory review of the Book of JOB. This sort of lines up due to the description we find in Ezekiel of satan..... (Ezekiel 28:12-14) "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. {13} Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. {14} Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." Full of Wisdom, Perfect in Beauty Anointed cherub that covereth. Sounds pretty powerful to me. So we conclude that GOD, or in this case The Holy Spirit (One and The Same with GOD), is the "Restrainer". Which just so happened to be given to "The Church" just after Christ's Departure to indwell them with a promise that..... (Matthew 16:18) "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Why??...... cause satan can "Never" prevail or work outside The WILL of Almighty GOD!! Savvy? Enoch, ive discoverd you dont actually read what i write, this is obvious by your comments as you miss 90% of everything i say and i feel i just repeat myself over and over. Not casting my pearls no more bro. Take care.

Enoch2010 Really at the pre 70th Week of Daniel Rapture we will proven right or wrong. But if you want to see the A/C and False Prophet face to face, that is up to you. For I will be seeing Jesus face to face at the Pre-Trib Rapture. All else is about Israel during this final week. In Christ Montana Marv I guess Marv that we dont wish to see the ac and the fp face to face but we just acknowledge that we will. But this is a good thing bud. We know that nothing can seperate us from the love of God and its in this time that our faith is "tested" we will be greatly rewarded. I for one are happy to suffer for the faith of Jesus Christ to all men, to be counted as a martyr if i dont make it to the rapture. Be carefull Marv mate. The bible says to be ready and to watch for his return. If you are found not watching then that day is going to come upon you as a theif and you will be caught unaware in the tribulation. We need to be ready, not just spritually but in every way. Let not you house be broken up, prepare for that day. For in a hour that you "THINK NOT" the Son of Man comes.

It's not called that, eh? Except by Jesus HIMself..... (Matthew 24:15-21) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) {16} Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: {17} Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: {18} Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. {19} And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! {20} But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: {21} For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Lets see if this will help: Confirming of The Covenant Then Immediately Daniel's 70th Week Begins. Abomination of Desolation Then Immediately Great Tribulation. Is it Clear now? Your view isnt clear no. Because the bible talks about three periods. Tribulation, Great tribulation and the Day of the Lord. Matt24: 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Matt 24: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." 1 Therss 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night Tribulation is from seal 1-4 Great tribulation is seal 5-7 Day of the Lord is Seal 7 onwards You continually leave out the day of the Lord The Day of the LORD = GOD'S Wrath, Rev Chapter 6 to the Culmination..... Jesus Second Coming in Rev Chapter 19. Back to the 5 months again, eh? So the time of the Locusts tormenting men is the Day of The Lord? Day of the Lord = Gods wrath, exactly Enoch. Your doing well bud, keep it up I Keep telling you, ive said it about 30 times, the DAY of the Lord starts at the 7th seal. The locusts are contained within the Day of the Lord along with a whole lot of other stuff. So you say the Wrath of GOD has Arrived in Rev 6 but............"then in Chapter 8 we see it implemented for the first time" Are you serious with this? ahhh, cause you have to with your (self-concocted) Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Tribulation Saints in Chapter 7. You can't have GOD'S Wrath being poured out before Your "Rapture" scenario. This "New" concocted scenario is no doubt a result of my 2 previous responses to you, that went something like this.... You say your view is "Pre-Wrath" but then say The Tribulation Saints are the Raptured in Rev 7:14 And they came out of Great Tribulation.... (Revelation 7:14) "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." How can they come "Out of Wrath" and be Pre-Wrath?? Also, Please show me Jesus coming in the Clouds with the Trump of GOD in Revelation 7? Unfortunately (for your "New" conjecture), GOD'S WORD puts a Exclamating Halt..... (Revelation 6:12-16) "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; {13} And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. {14} And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. {15} And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; {16} And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:" So "6 seals opened but none of which were seen as Gods wrath", eh?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Except for: the Kings/Great Men/Rich Men/Chief Captains/Mighty Men/ "Every" Free Man/Bondman. Who's left that didn't see?? What were they Hiding from? Lets see: Great Earthquake, Stars falling from Heaven, Heaven departing as a Scroll, Every mountain an island moved from their place..... "the wrath of the Lamb". Wrath already started.....You need a "New Conjecture". Wrong, read again what i said, the wrath of God begins in seal 7. Clearly you do not read anything i say.

Montana Marv, you have a good grasp of revelation. This is what i also believe. No conflict here bro, all good.

I guess we havnt spoken alot about the doctrine of imminence, which in my view is exactly that, church doctrine. Time to take a look at this because i believe its a fallacy and is NOT of God. This view is held by pre tribbers and only exists to serve that doctrine. However, lets take a look at what the bible actually says. Lets set out what the pre trib doctrine actually teaches first. According to popular belief the pre tribbers arrive at their conclusion by quoting Matt24, something they at the same time attribute as being written the the jews and is NOT relevant to the church. Matt24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. But what people fail to realise is that Jesus is still talking about a post tribulation gathering. The imminence doctrine rips this verse severely out of context and tries to attribute it to a pre tribulational rapture of the church. Christ reminds the church of Sardis, Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. So he is saying "WATCH" or i will come upon you as a thief. After all Christ can only come as a thief in the night if you are found NOT watching for his return. Paul says in ! Thess 5:2 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1 Thess 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. The TRUTH is that Jesus Christs return is IMMINENT ONLY for those who are NOT watching. He then reassures the believers at Thessalonica with the following verse, 1 Thess5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. The return of the Lord cannot catch us off guard if you are watching because, 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. So what is it we are supposed to watch for? (If your a pre trib, there is nothing you can watch for if you believe in imminence as no signs can be given otherwise it cant be imminent right) Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. When the sky is darkened and the moon appears as blood. That is THE SIGN of his coming and that it is even at the door. Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Now lets not forget also that many events MUST take place BEFORE Christ can return. There are many events that must take place but lets just look at an obvious one. The jews return to the Land. How can we have the events of revelation with no jews in the Land. Without Jews in the Land there is simply NO ISRAEL. Now the doctrine of imminence alludes that the rapture is imminent all the way from the time Christs assention till he actually returns. How then could the doctrine of imminence be an effectual doctrine if prior to 1948 when Israel once again arrived on the scene and jews flocked from all over the planet to their homeland, how could he come if Israel wasnt there??? He cant can he! there is no way Christ can return without Israel being back in the land.

OK Enoch, lets Rock and Roll once again My words are in Blue. You are not rightly dividing The WORD as I have mention numerous times. Daniel is speaking of "His" People------------Israel. 2 Thess is speaking to "The Church". Daniel couldn't speak to "The Church" because The "Mystery' wouldn't be "revealed" until Eph 3. Also, please review 2 Thess 2:3-9 it clearly shows the "he" is removed (Holy Spirit), THEN that Wicked is Revealed. Also please review "Falling Away" (Apostasia) and what it may mean: And it's not mid-point of "tribulation" it's mid Daniel's 70th Week. Only the Last Half of that week is Great Tribulation. "Jacobs Trouble" is referring to Israel sir, not the Church. Rightly dividing the word means that we use scripture to interpret scripture. We dont let "church doctrine" interpret scripture. I totally agree that Dan is speaking to Israel hence why i used the term "Jacobs trouble". You are also correct that in Thess the target audience is the church. But if the church is still present in rev until chapter 10 when the mystery ends and both are speaking of the same topic, the ac, then i dont see any issues, You only get a conflict if your pre trib and you have to wiggle around the scripture to make it all work. Please tell me how the 70th week which is jacobs trouble, 7 years long and the ac covenant 7 years long how shall the mid point not be in the middle??? I just dont follow your math here. 7 years fits into 7 years with the same start/end point simultaneously, proving without a doubt that the ac is revealed mid point. We know for a fact that the ac is present doing his thing in the first seal. But i dont beleive he is revealed untill later, i think he works behind the scene. Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. 2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. If the last half is great tribulation and it is but its not called that, then where does the day of the Lord fit in? Remember its at least 5 months long, propably much much longer. In rev 6 we see the inhabiters of the earth proclaiming that the WRATH OF GOD has arrived. Rev6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Then in chapter 8 we see it being implemented for the first time in revelation. Thus this is the beginning of the Day of the Lord. Now if the people of the earth are claiming the Day of Wrath has just arrived, what was going on BEFORE this?? I mean we had 6 seals opened but none of which were seen as Gods wrath. So as you see, scripture interprets scripture and thats "rightly dividing the word." Why? "He" (The Restrainer) Left with "The Church" prior to Daniel's 70th Week. There is no more "Restraining" needed. Why would the Holy Spirit be restraining GOD'S WRATH? And this "satan's Wrath" thing is getting on my last nerve. satan can do nothing without GOD letting him do it or empowering him to accomplish GOD'S Purpose!! The Great Tribulation is GOD'S Wrath the Whole Book of Revelation is GOD'S Wrath. No the entire book is NOT God wrath, thats only in the Day of the Lord. See last comment. My AKJV is spot on!! (Revelation 5:9) "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" Firstly, the word "for" isn't in contention?? The word "us" is (in your mind). And it's "hemas" Strong's # 2248....it means "Us" Second and more importantly....What Codices is the Interlinear using? If it's part of The Westcott and Hort ensemble, you have Major Problems (See here): Well i guess strongs is incorrect also as no other translation has it as "Us". Only the King James. New International Version And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. New Living Translation And they sang a new song with these words: "You are worthy to take the scroll and break its seals and open it. For you were slaughtered, and your blood has ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. English Standard Version And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, New American Standard Bible And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. King James Bible And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; Holman Christian Standard Bible And they sang a new song: You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because You were slaughtered, and You redeemed people for God by Your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation. International Standard Version They sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered. With your blood you purchased people for God from every tribe, language, people, and nation. American Standard Version And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, English Revised Version And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, Matthew Henry's interpretation, And didst redeem unto God by thy blood out of every kindred, etc. Though the reading "us" is supported by various manuscripts, and similarly the first person is used in ver. 10. yet, on the whole, it seems better to omit it, the phrase being taken in a partitve sense - "Thou didst redeem unto God by thy blood some out of every kindred, etc., and hast made them, etc., and they shall reign." Again, "Thou didst purchase us at the price of thy blood" would, perhaps, give the sense more correctly; for such is the force of the words, "in thy blood" (ἐν τῷ αἵματι). So again, the correct terms are as follows, Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song , saying, “ Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every language, people, and nation. (Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament) The word FOR that is in bold in the verse the greek word is Ho. The english translation has it as "us" but that is incorrect. Here is the meaning of "Ho", ὁ δέ," the one ... the other, some ... others, but he, but others". Now-where in the greek does it mean "US". This is a Logical Fallacy: Affirming The Consequent: If the Rapture is after the midpoint then we would observe Saints after the midpoint. If P then Q. Q. Therefore P. First you must prove "The Rapture" is after the "Mid-Point". More Importantly........Tribulation Saints are not "The Church". We do see saints after the mid point, and i have proved the rapture is after the mid point, its in chapter 7 in between seal 6 and 7. What scripture do you have to support your theory that tribulation saints are not the church. Ive proven WITH SCRIPTURE and not church doctrine that the church is present until Rev 10. Rev10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. I mean that is as clear as day. No church doctrines, no fudging, just letting scripture interpret scripture, rightly dividing the word. GOD's Wrath is being poured out @ the Opening of the Seals.....@ the Latest the 6th Seal, because he says so: (Revelation 6:12-16) "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; {13} And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. {14} And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. {15} And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; {16} And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:" You say your view is "Pre-Wrath" but then say The Tribulation Saints are the Raptured in Rev 7:14 And they came out of Great Tribulation.... (Revelation 7:14) "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." How can they come "out of Wrath" and be Pre-Wrath?? Also, Please show me Jesus coming in the Clouds with the Trump of GOD in Revelation 7? The Purpose of Great Tribulation is..... (Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early." Lol Enoch, you so funny bro Here you back me up again, you really ought to stop this Enoch. Its bad for the pre trib doctrine. Yes the wrath og God starts in the seals and you Rightly (this time) use Rev 6 as the start point for his wrath. Previously you claimed all the seals from the begining of the trib was Gods wrath. But you beginning to get a grasp of the pre wrath view now, thats good bud, good stuff. But like i said before, seal six shows that the wrath of God is only imminent, they see its about to be unleashed. Rev 8 when the 7th seal is opened is the actual works of the wrath of God and the beginning of the Day of the Lord. Chapter 7 in the middle is the rapture. I cant show a verse that shows Jesus coming in the clouds in chapter 7 which is during seal 6 and before seal 7. But we do see the skys open as a scroll and the sun not giving its light and the moon turning to blood. So if thats not clouds, major ones, than im lost to what it might be. However, can you show a verse thats before the tribulation that A. we get raptured out beforehand. B. That it has clouds. Now lets backtrack a little, here is the verse you are refering too, Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Opps, thats MATTHEW TWENTY FOUR VERSE THIRTY!!! Surely Enoch you remember claiming that Matt 24 had nothing to do with the church as it was written to the Jews and when i tryed to use Matt 24 you admonished me saying :thats for the Jews" You cant have it both ways Enoch my buddy. Holes holes holes as all i see in church doctrines. It's Right here (and it Pre-70th Week of Daniel)..... (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (2 Thessalonians 2:5-8) "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? {6} And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. {7} For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:" caught up = "harpazo" "The Church" = The 24 Elders, and they are already in Heaven in Chapter 4 when John arrives. Ive proven that incorrect, yes they are elders but they are not the church and your whole church dictrine is centered around one word which is the incorrect one as i have shown above. Where is this event in Revelation? Well, it's not.....Therefore, it had to happen before. What's not said is sometimes just as important as what is said. Well you quoted the rapture, but i asked you to show me where the rapture is shown to be PRE TRIB in scripture. Your verses dont seem to have any pretribulational theme. I mean if your referring to the Holy spirit in your terms that somehow proves its pre tribulational, well that doesnt hold water unless you have a verse that shows he is taken out before the trib starts and you didnt supply any scripture showing this. The wicked being revealed in mid trib, you cannot show a verse that says otherwise. But if you look at my other comments you see he isnt revealed toll mid term. You have obviously moved past your previous thought of "the day of the LORD" as 5 Months? So the Day of the LORD is not a Specific Day it's a Time Period? Probably The Great Tribulation in TOTO? I can live with that. I suppose I'm splitting hairs but Armageddon is a staging area, where the ac armies launch there attack on the believing Jewish Remnant. The Lord Returns to Bozrah-----Petra Today: (Isaiah 63:1-6) "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. {2} Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? {3} I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. {4} For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. {5} And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. {6} And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth." and Marries up with.... (Revelation 19:15-16) "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." I never ever said it was 5 months, i have always maintained it is a least that long, up to 3.5 years long. What in the World is This? As I said, You're Equivocating (Fallacy): The "Mystery of GOD" in Rev 10 with the "Mystery of Israel's Blindness" in Romans. As I said, The Mystery is Israel's Blindness..... and the Mystery was revealed in the same Passage Romans 11:25. To arbitrarily relate the two above is sloppy Exegesis @ best and incoherent @ worst. In effect, you're saying: the "Mystery of GOD" in TOTO = The "Mystery of the Fullness of the Gentiles" The only thing that this gets in the way of is Pedestrian Exegesis. Exactly, once again brother Enoch, your backing me up lol The mystery is the church and we all know that blindness has happened to Israel as foretold by the prophets during the "CHURCH AGE". After the mystery is finished, the angels start to proclaim the gospel and israel is saved. Thanks to Montana Marv for that one.

I don't understand the point of the question. What does an angel spreading the gospel have to do with whether post-tribbers are there or not? By the way, I'm not a post-tribber, nor a pre-tribber, I'm just not sure what your post is asking? Oakwood My point being; if an angel is now proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Great Commission is now closed for the Church. For that was our duty. Also if the rest of mankind did not stop worshiping demons and idols, the Post -Trib group would have to be included in the "rest of mankind". I am trying to sway them away from their doctrine. In Christ Montana Marv Why so? A Trib church would be in no position to preach the gospel anyway , at least not openly, nor to a wide audience. They would be under the thumb of the Beast. They would be in hiding or at the very least subjected to serious restrictions. They could witness locally, but they would have no Global reach. Why do you think that just because God provides alternative witnesses that this would mean that the Church will not be present? If an angel is sent to preach or even the two witnesses are sent, why do you automatically assume that all the other Christians have been raptured? Oakwood If there were to be a tribulation Church; The Great Commission would still be in effect. Go out into all the world and preach the Gospel. In prison, at home, at work. We are His light where ever we are. There would be no need for an angel flying in midair to also proclaim this same gospel. No angel doing this proclaiming of the Gospel over the past 1980 or so years since the beginning of the Church. Now when the Bride/Church is gone, there would be a need for an angel to proclaim this same Gospel. The Bride is in the Fathers House, we are gone, no one left to proclaim the gospel, except an angel flying in midair to replace the duties of the Church. In Christ Montana Marv Hey Montana. Nice work on rightly dividing the word. I feel you are spot on the money and i myself had not seen that inf that passage of scripture that you mentioned, good job. So you feel that that passage shows that the angels are proclaiming the gospel because the church age is over this the church is NOT present. I agree with this entirely. I guess where we differ is that if your pre trib then you say the church isnt present during the tribulation at all. Where as i believe they are present but not at the time of the angels proclaiming the gospel in Rev14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, My view is that the church is present right up to chapter 10 which is before 14. Rev10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. It is well established that the Mystery is the church and called a mystery by the prophets because it was not revealed at that time what it was. Now we know what that mystery is and it ends in REV 10:7 BEFORE the restoration of Israel.

Hi Hindsfeet, Im of the view that the revealing takes place 3 and a half years into the tribulation. Dan 9:27 "And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate." The anti christ being revealed must precede the Day of the Lord. 2 Thess2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. And the Day of the Lord starts at the 7th seal in chapter 8 Chapter 13 is way off past this time. Matt:)

Thats Rev 13, way way after his revealing. He will be well known by then and the church gone. Thanks for the comment though Hindsfeet

Hi Montana Marv, thanks for your reply My view is that the ac is active and present during the beginning of the 7 years however i feel he is not revealed intill the midpoint when you correctly point out that he stops the offerings. Take for example John Kerry going about on his 9 month long peace initiative with Israel/palestine. He is not the actual leader of this but just the public face. He is in constant contact with geneva and the G6 over this, they are the ones pulling the strings, not Kerry. So likewise i beleive it will be the same with the ac to begin with. I agree israel is in peace the first half. The 24 elders are not from the church. I explained this to Enoch but ill re post it here. Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song , saying, “ Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every language, people, and nation. (Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament) The word FOR that is in bold in the verse the greek word is Ho. The english translation has it as "us" but that is incorrect. Here is the meaning of "Ho", ὁ δέ," the one ... the other, some ... others, but he, but others". Now-where in the greek does it mean "US". So we see that the elders were NOT speaking of themselves but of Gods redeemed, because the word "Us" from the english translation does not exist in the greek and the word "Us" is what the pre tribs base 100% of their theory on that they are church saints. But if the word us doesnt exist and in fact the opposite is true, they talk about the Lords redeemed, then its impossible for them to be church saints. Dans 70 week is said to speak only to israel and this is true mostly, but Dans 70th week must fit inside the 7 years covenant that the ac brings about . This is pre trib doctine. If it is true that the 70th week ONLY speaks about Israel then how is it that the church age does NOT end until rev 10 Rom11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Rev10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. The 70th week does include an extreme amount of events that relate to Israel, but i dont think that precludes the church from being present. After all, the church was a mystery in Dans days remember. Matt

sorry about that. all my posts have been written i the kindest of posible ways that im capable of. large font was used to make sure it wasnt missed as i deemed them more important than the bold ones. sorry, wont do it again

You've Identified the Problem....."I believe". If you start out with "I can Prove" or "Scripture Clearly Shows" or "Scripture tells us"..... then that forces you to Support what you say. Well i did prove it. Thanks for your reply but its not exactly something that is solid. I mean if only matthew mentions the church by name then that kinda PROVES it. Especially when Luke backs up Matt24 as not being written to the jews. Its open and shut proof. I wont answer your comments because i just dont think anything you said holds much water bro. Sorry about that. Im just sayin ok

Exactly as i said Enoch. The Apostasia must take place BEFORE the man of sin is revealed. As the man of sin isnt revealed until the mid point of the tribulation it happened i believe when the saints are suffering the wrath of satan, hunger, pestilence, heat and most of all martyrdom. Martyrdom will cause many to question their faith. Especially when many beleived the rapture was imminent and pre tribulational. When they find out it isnt and they are to face certain death or take the mark, many fall away and follow the "craft" that the anti christ causes to prosper. So again, you seem to continually back me up. Thus i believe that you dont really have a good grasp on what the pre wrath view actually holds to. This is why i recommended you watch my video. matt24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And that includes the antichrist

Hi Montana Marv I think they are the church for a few reasons, 1. The church age does not end until rev 10 which is after this. Rom11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Rev10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. 2. There is no defining event in the scriptures denoting the end of the church age before hand such as a pretrubulational rapture, it simply doesnt exist in the bible at all. I asked Enoch to provide scriptures for it and the best he could do was quote church doctrine and thanks for that Enoch. 3. The church MUST continue until the end of the church age, it cannot end before this. The disciples asked Jesus, not the jews, but the desciples, Matt24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? The word "world" in bold in the verse is translated "AGE" in the greek. The greek word is, "aiōna". "period of time of significant character; life; an era; an age: hence, a state of things marking an age or era; the present order of nature; the natural condition of man, the world" And so we know its not the end of the world as that doesnt happen untill the new millenium is over and that is NOT the context of Matt 24. Jesus answers and says that the following must take place first, And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) So we see that all these things must happen BEFORE the end of the church age including the revealing of the anti christ whom is revealed mid point. Yes it is future tense and it tells of the things the Lord shall do in heaven for everyone as none of these events have taken place yet. And that is Key.

Enoch. my are words in Blue. Enoch, please take care and read slowly and properly my answers. I get the feeling that what i say to you doesnt sink in and im not trying to be mean by saying that bro. ============================================================================================= Well you know i beleive that is Michael. Ive shown you scripture to why i think that. Dan 12:1. Do you have any scripture to show that this is the Holy Spirit? Because i dont know of any and i see it as a church guess that its the Holy Spirit. Key Phrase "I believe". You have shown nothing concerning Michael and The Church. All you have shown is Michael in reference to Daniels People-----Israel. As I have mentioned on this thread @ least 5 times. Only "GOD" (The Holy Spirit) "restrains" satan. Scripture Support......see Book of JOB OK, so i guess we can take this subject up again as you have mentioned it again. Just be aware that im only discussing this and i and not looking for a fight nor to get personal. The whole reason i am here actually is to hone my personal doctrinal beliefs by letting them go through the scrutiny of you guys. Im open to change most things i believe if it can be shown from scripture i am incorrect and i have done that for most of my christian life and thats why im not longer a pre triber The bone of contention: Dan12 :1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Now in the other thread you said that this verse didnt even apply to the end times. But clearly it does...."and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time" More than that, Dan 12:1 has its chronological order correct in that we have, 1. The angel stands up in the end days during the time of Jacobs trouble. 2 thess2: 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. The context of thess is jacobs trouble shown here, 2 thess2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; ....7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. So we clearly see that the restrainer is NOT taken away untill AFTER the man of sin is revealed which happens mid point in the trib. 2. "and at that time thy people shall be delivered," and so they are during Jacobs trouble. 3. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Day of judgement, happens at the end of the Day of the Lord. We also see that Dan says this is for the time of the end.....But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. This verse in Dan is speaking to both jews and gentiles. When speaking about the jews he says "and at that time thy people shall be delivered" and then all as a whole including gentiles, he says, "every one that shall be found written in the book." So your claim to be speaking about only Jews is only half right. You also said in the other thread that Michael is a warrior and a commander. I dont disagree and fail to see how this affects my interpretation. You said that the restrainer restrains satan, I also agree. But what is satan doing during the tribulation? Rev 12:12 Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. One would think he would need restraining at one point, especially Rev 12:7 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, It says it right here.... (Revelation 5:8-10) "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. {9} And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." No, again your english translation is incorrect. Ill explain it again and ill try to be a little clearer as i wasnt that clear last time. here is the proper text: Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song , saying, “ Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every language, people, and nation. (Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament) The word FOR that is in bold in the verse the greek word is Ho. The english translation has it as "us" but that is incorrect. Here is the meaning of "Ho", ὁ δέ," the one ... the other, some ... others, but he, but others". Now-where in the greek does it mean "US". So you're saying the Tribulation begins @ the Confirming of The Covenant? But Christ said.... (Matthew 24:15-21) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) {16} Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: {17} Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: {18} Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. {19} And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! {20} But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: {21} For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." See that "For then shall be" right next to "great tribulation"?? What did Daniel Say?....... (Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." The "Tribulation" is a Misnomer, there is only "Great Tribulation" spoken of by Jesus Himself. And when does this Happen? In "The Midst" of that 7 Year Period. These are commentaries and speculators adding their spin to the text...as in 7 years of "Tribulation". Adding "Tribulation" arbitrarily to the first 3 1/2 years/prior to the Abomination of Desolation. Please show ONE Scripture saying that the first 3 1/2 years is just plain "Tribulation"? So your Conjecture that "Tribulation" begins with the "signing of the Covenant" is in Direct Conflict and obfuscates what Jesus Himself said and Daniel 9:27. Care to reconsider? ps. Who said the ac "Signs" anything?? Correct: he might not sign anything. I guess i was just referring to an agreement with many. Im not sure what to say here Enoch except to say you just backed up my comments 100% that the tribulation starts with the ac making an agreement with Israel and many! So if the ac confirms a covenant for 7 years isnt this the beginning of the 7th week? I mean its 7 years right? Therefore this event MUST take place at the very beginning before the seals start. How else you you fit 7 years into 7 years? In the midst of that week he, "shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate" according to Rev, but then in Matt 24: "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place," So what Rev and Matt are saying here is that there is an agreement made between Israel and many for one week. The anti christ is revealed in the midst of that week which is mentioned here, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation" Now this is the part where we differ. Matt24:16-21 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." The context of the timing of these verses are after the anti christ is revealed and we know from Dan 9:27 that its in the midst of the week that therefore these events are AFTER the mid point of the tribulation. These verses DO NOT allude to a rapture but rather it is talking to Israel to flee into the mountains because great tribulation is about to start. So since these events take place after the mid point we should be able to find these events in Revelation, and indeed we do: Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. So your versus just prove my case and your verses also self interpret that they are not rapture verses. You've got absolutely ZERO Scripture for a Rapture Post Abomination of Desolation. All you have is an Exegetical Trainwreck with convolutions concerning the different people groups and attributes (Including but not limited to "The Church" and Israel) Those are Tribulation Saints, the ones John Didn't recognize, that came out of GOD's WRATH. Well i believe that you didnt pay close attention to Rev 7:9 and i dont think you allowed scripture to interpret scripture. Because while yes they are tribulation saints after all the rapture is after the mid point so yes they would be tribulation saints. If you got raptured after the mid point wouldnt that make you a tribulation saint Enoch?? Lets take another look at this. Rev6 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Then in the very next chapter later we see God answers their prayers, Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 13 ........What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. So lets see how scripture interprets scripture. In Rev 6 during the 5th seal we see the souls of those killed for their faith by the ac. They petition the Lord to do something about their fellow brethren who are being killed as they were...."O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" They are told that the Lord will do something if they wait a while until the number of the martyrs is completed......"and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season,until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." The in rev 7 we see the Lord answers that petition when we see, ....".I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number" These seem to suddenly appear in heaven......."and whence came they" Then we see the Lords answer to their petition of him....."These are they which came out of great tribulation" So we must understand that the Lord does answer prayer and he WAS petitioned of the martyred saints to do something about it and he did, we see so many ppl taken from the earth during the tribulation that it is doubtfull that they had all be killed. Sure they had to wait till the number was completed but we see a number off people in heaven that NO MAN COULD NUMBER. Do you know how long it would take to kill that many people, it would take years and years and years. Clearly they are the martyrs but mainly raptured saints, aka, YOU and me. I have a question......What would be the Purpose of GOD pouring HIS Wrath out on Born Again Christians ("The Church")?? Get them to Repent or Believe more? What is the Purpose of the Great Tribulation? God doesnt pour out his wrath on the church. thats why my view is named PRE_WRATH. The purpose is multiperpose and takes too long to list and explain. "open and shut" and "solid" eh? Love the Adjectives....fortunately, they're not Proof just linguistics. It's what the call in the Industry as background noise....unfortunately, the things that most people focus on. Can you show me in the "Original Texts", where it says "Harpazo" in Rev 7?? Or show the LORD "Coming in the Clouds" and the "Trump of GOD" in Rev 7? Define Specifically---"the day of the LORD" Start and End point, thanks. Well i should be the one asking that question Enoch and i will, Can you show me in the "Original Texts", where it says "Harpazo" ?? Or show the LORD "Coming in the Clouds" and the "Trump of GOD" before the tribulation starts? But in answer to your question, YES i can but its in rev 6 during the 6th seal, not 7. Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? The Day of the Lord starts on seal 7 of Rev chapter 8 though we see rev 6:16-17 talking about the arrival of his wrath and "that Day" it is apparent to the players in this chapter acknowledge thats its ONLY about to unfold. It does unfold in Rev 8 during the 7th seal. Rev 8"1And when he had opened the seventh seal..... 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. 5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. 6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. 7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. 8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. 10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. 12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. 13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound! Obviously the Day of the Lord ends at Armageddon. Its time period is some time after the mid point of the 70th week and continues until Armageddon is over. http://learntheology.com/images/full_size/endtimes_overview.jpg http://learntheology.com/images/full_size/bowl_judgements.jpg Click images to expand (images thanks the book The Sign) Only GOD knows that number. Moreover, Even though the number of the Gentiles is a "Mystery" (More like unknown or unknowable) in our vernacular from our perspective. "Mystery" in the Greek is a term when used denotes that it will be revealed "Right Now". As in the "Mystery" in the above verse is speaking to......"that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." The Mystery is not the "Number".... the "mystery" is the Whole Concept (Everything after "mystery") . But I'm sure you knew that. I think once again you have not had a firm grasp of what i was saying. Sometimes i think you are a little to fast to try and prove me wrong that you dont listen and comprehend. Again bro, im sorry if this seams harsh but im simply trying to point out that i beleive we are having discussion difficulties due to what i just said. I no way am i trying to put you down nor your believe or view. 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Note, fulness of the Gentiles. This was my context, the fullness of the gentiles comes in at Rev 10, Rev10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. So we see Enoch that the fullness of the gentiles is completed in Rev 10 when it says, the mystery of God should be finished. This gets in the way of your pre tribulation rapture doesnt it. Because you beleive the rapture finished the times of the church, but not so.

My words in blue Spocky. Well all is good here i think, i cant see much that is incorrect tho im not convinced of a second rapture, that is the pretribulational one. Im not saying its not true, i just need to look into it more. Thanks for the thread spock.

Thanks Spocky, I agree with your assertion. Ill take a look at your twin rapture theory.

Hi Guys, Ive noticed in some of the past posts that there was some discussion about the book of Matthew and whether it pertained to the Jews or not. Let me explain why i think it is NOT written to the Jews. Matthew wrote his gospel to the Church!! to those who already follow Christ. It is a teaching gospel. Matthew is the ONLY GOSPEL that refers to the church. Matt16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matt18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Even the great commission given to the church is only mentioned in Matthew Matt28: 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Jesus speaks of the end of the Church age Matt28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. And there are many other examples. The reason many try to say Matthew was written to the jews was because of Matt 24 where Jesus speaks of a post tribulation rapture preceding the Day of the Lord. But Luke 21 does the exact same thing. Both talk about the end of the church age as well. Luke was not written to the jews alone. If you think about it, to have a gospel book that is written to the jews and therefore irrelevant to the church is a little difficult to believe isnt it. I believe the book of matthew while written to the church is for both jew and gentile with a gentile perspective.

My words in blue. =========================================================================================== No Problem....and to be precise, my view is Pre-70th Week of Daniel. First the scope or overview: What is the Purpose of Great Tribulation? ....(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early." "early" is better translated "Earnestly". The main goal is to have the believing Jewish Remnant Petition the LORD to Return. satan's goal is to prevent that. Think about it, all this should have been over @ the Cross....satan lost (Big Time ) But it's not over. The only card satan has left to play...... is to prevent The LORD from returning. How does he do that....Kill The Believing Jewish Remnant. He's in for a Shocker @ Bozrah------Petra today. See that "TILL" in Hosea?? ...it's a Biggie!! GOD will never go against or contrary to HIS WORD. I LOVE HIM for that!!!! Praise The LORD!!!!!!!! You have to be able to distinguish between "Israel" and "The Church" in Scripture. Both have different Origins, Paths, and Destinies. If you don't distinguish between the two, your Eschatology will be a TrainWreck, IMHO..... (Romans 11:25) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." That "until"....is a Biggie!! A fruitful study is to punch in "Until" or "Till" into a Concordance and track what these passages say. They're quite illuminating. I agree so far Enoch, funny though, Revelation shows exactly when the Mystery ends. I suppose it boils down to (and for Brevity) 4 sections in Scripture: 2 Thess 2:7-8, Daniel 9:27, 1 Thess 5:9, The Doctrine of Imminence and The 24 Elders: (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:" The "he" is the Holy Spirit....and "HE'S" not going anywhere without "THE CHURCH". "He's" the Embodiment of it! Well you know i beleive that is Michael. Ive shown you scripture to why i think that. Dan 12:1. Do you have any scripture to show that this is the Holy Spirit? Because i dont know of any and i see it as a church guess that its the Holy Spirit. In Combination with.... Daniel's "little horn" The Beast/ That Wicked from above (Mister Big Mouth)...... (Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." To "Confirm The Covenant" the beast/That Wicked has to be known Publicly ("Revealed"). Where's the Holy Spirit that INDWELLS "THE CHURCH" when that happens......TAKEN, out of the Way. (1 Thessalonians 5:9) "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," GOD'S Wrath clearly begins with the Opening of The Seals in Rev 6. @ the Very Latest....the 6th Seal: (Revelation 6:16) "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:" The Doctrine of Imminence: No Preceding event to The Rapture (That is, nothing that you could discern via "Timed" events that could clue you when Christ will Return. That most documented Specific "timed" event leading to the Second Coming in Scripture is: Time, Times, and a Dividing of Time: Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 12:14; 1260 Days: Rev 11:3, Rev 12:6, Rev 12:14; 42 Months: Rev 11:2, Rev 13:5. These all speak to the time from the Abomination of Desolation "Until" Christ's Return. Here's the problem....anyone even with a cursory knowledge of Scripture (Especially Dan and Rev) could pretty much Mark their Calendars and Set Their Watches from the Abomination of Desolation in Anticipation of Christ. Which then would nullify this Passage (and dozens more)..... (Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." All who've read and understood Daniel and Revelation WOULD KNOW. For me personally, it's when "That Wicked" Confirms the Covenant. It won't be a "secret" Covenant and it will be One of the Main Reasons people follow him. You could start the Calendar and Watches countdown @ the "Confirming of the Covenant."........Daniel's 70th Week. I vehemently disagree with the doctrine of imminence and ill explain why i beleive that another day. The Identity of the 24 Elders: The 24 Elders are Representatives of The Church. And if that's the Case (and it is as I will show below ), then The Rapture is well before The Great Tribulation because they are in Heaven when John Arrives in Chapter 4. Lets Identify these 24 Elders, First: - Identified as the Redeemed (Rev 5: 9,10) This is incorrect Enoch. When studying the bible you must always check the original texts which are inspired of God and thus correct. English translations are full of translation errors. Here is the original text and nowhere does its say the Elders were redeemed but rather "men" were redeemed, 9 And kai they sang adō a new kainos song ōdē, saying legō, “ Worthy axios are you eimi to take lambanō the ho scroll biblion and kai to open anoigō · ho its autos seals sphragis, for hoti you were slain sphazō, and kai by en your sy blood haima you ransomed agorazō people for ho God theos · ho from ek every pas tribe phylē, · kai language glōssa, · kai people laos, and kai nation ethnos. 10 And kai you have made poieō them autos a kingdom basileia and kai priests hiereus to ho our hēmeis God theos, and kai they will reign basileuō on epi the ho earth gē. - only three are Identified in all of Scripture as Kings and Priests (Melchizedek, Jesus, and the Redeemed......US ) - They worship the Lamb before he receives the Scroll; in fact, they are already in Heaven when John arrives. 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. It doest actually say these are in Heaven, it just says he has made kings and preists to reign on Earth just as it says that many had been redeemed. - Tribulation begins when the Scroll is Unsealed Yes it does begin here but to be specific it begins at the signing of the covenant between Israel and many which i believe is a little beforehand. Bear in mind, The Royal Line (Judah) and The Priesthood (Levites) were to be kept separate as noted throughout the OT. The Church appears to have no such restriction.... A Closer Look: Peter says: (1 Peter 2:9) "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:" Royal Priesthood: Kings and Priests John in Revelation says: (Revelation 1:5-6) "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, {6} And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." John is including himself in this group of Kings and Priests with "us". Who else is John including in the "us"?? The ones that are washed from our sins in HIS Blood....."The Church" (Born Again Christians). No arguement here Enoch Hmmm, any more clues? (Revelation 5:8-10) "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. {9} And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." The 24 Elders Sang a New Song: Song of The Redeemed. Hast Redeemed "us"....How? By The Blood. From where? Out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation = "The Church" Has made "us" what?: Kings and Priests. Who the 24 Elders Can't Be, (Characteristics): Tribulation Saints: 24 Elders: * Not Crowned *Crowned, casts them on the Glassy Sea (Rev 4:10) * Palms in Hands *Harps, No Palms *Saved "out of" Great Tribulation * Kept "out of" Great Tribulation (Rev 3:10) * Stand Before Thrones * Sit on Thrones (Rev 4:4) * Serve HIM Night and Day * Reign as Kings and Priests (1 Cor 6:2-3, Rev 5:10) Tribulation Saints were not recognized by John and he asked who they were (Rev 7:14). Who answered? One of the Elders. John never asks who the 24 Elders are..... Why should he, he knows who they are Can't be The Martyrs because they are "under" The Alter and were slain. 24 Elders Sit on Thrones, not "slain". Can't be Angels.... (Revelation 7:11) "And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God," All the Angels stood round about the Throne...and who else? The 24 Elders. Clear Distinction. We are running out of contenders @ Light Speed. Can't be the 144,000, Obviously. Many more nuances with "Types", The Seven Churches/Lampstands et al but these are the Primary Proof Texts. Hope it helps I inserted my words in blue above. Well Enoch i guess what i meant was a scripture which makes it very clear. I dont really think that anything you have quoted above is scripture pointing to the view that the rapture is pre tribulational. However i have here a scripture which is as clear as day that the rapture takes place during the tribulation and there are many, but ill quote just this one, Rev 7 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; ....... 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Now that is pretty open and shut i think Enoch. This is what i was asking you for, something solid. But what you showed me was based on flawed english translations and was very dependant upon interpration. This event happens in rev 7 right in between seal 6 and seal 7 with 7 being the beginning of the Day of the Lord and all seals before this being satans wrath or events that are of God but are not judgements upon the populace but are rather signs. Note that the arrival of the tribulation saints are sudden, hence why the elder says "where did they come from?" Anyway, thanks for taking the time to reply Enoch and i guess we will have to agree to disagree. Edit: i almost forgot. You cited this verse, Rom11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. So when does the fullness of the gentiles come in and the mystery end? Rev10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. So we see that the church or the times of the gentiles continues to the seventh trumpet. Now it is time for Israel to be restored which is exactly what we see in the very next chapter, chapter 11. These gentiles are present after the rapture. We know many gentile nations will continue into the millenial kindom and these are they.

Hi Montana, thanks for your question. Matt24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. So you are correct Montana according to the scriptures. Jesus did not know the timing of the rapture while on Earth. But when John wrote the Revelation of Jesus Christ he would have know, being part of the Godhead for he reveals it in chapter 7. But you are not completely correct Montana, Jesus DID know while on Earth the times and the seasons. For example, he said just a few verses before in Matt24: 32, 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. The fig tree is Israel and the branch putting forth leaves is their return to the land. So when you see these things know that the generation alive at that time will be the same generation to see the Son of Man coming. So he actually gives a time window in which it can ONLY happen inside of. Not before, nor after, but only while that generation lives. They are now 66 years old. The pre wrath view does not tell you the time the raspture will take place but it does tell you what events must preceed it and what events must come after it. There is another time window inside the 70th week that shows that the rapture can ONLY happen inside of. That length of time of that window is not given however, except to say it must happen after the antic christ is revealed.. It must finish before the Day of the Lord starts and thus could have a time window of a few hours to a couple of years. Even living right there as the events take place you cannot know the DAY or the HOUR. But you will know its very close.

Hi post tribber here and I would like to do some explaining as the title suggests, but first I want to brush on another post saying something about post tribbers attacking pretribbers. My goal here is not to attack but rather speak on the truth found in Gods word. First off the above scripture quoted does not give any refrence to chronilogical order and thus does not dispell any thing to do with the post trib theory. This is a common practice of pre tribbers, they find a scripture and then go to thier mind and figure it out saying ah ha this is what I want it to mean because it fits with what I haveheard. They do this rather than examine all scriptures together, which would be rightly dividing the word of truth or studying to shew thyself aproved. In three of the four gospels it gives clear chronilogical order first beginning of sorrows then great trib and then the second coming. When you consider that the info is the same order in all three gospels which is matt mark and luke it would seem obvious. What I recommend is to not try to read the bible and pick out what you want it to say but rather read the bible for what the bible says. Around a decade ago I was a pretribber. The pre trib teaching was all I ever heard or knew. One day in church I prayed and asked God to show me truth because if He didnt I may never know it. After that while hearing many topics being preached I sometimes would get an uneasy feeling in my spirit like it was in knots, I would open my bible to find the answer and God would show me scriptures that directly contridicted what I was hearing. Pre trib rapture was one of these topics. And ever since then God has shown me a little here and there. When He originaly showed me I was very confused because at that time I didnt know that a mid and post trib teaching even exsisted. He got me lined out withthe truth in His word. There is not one single scripture that gives chronilogical order that states we will be raptured prior to the great tribulation. All thru the book of revelations there is obvious evidence that not only isrealites but also christians will be alive in the flesh during the great tribulation . the fact that an angel said what he did in the scripture above does not dispell anything about christians not preaching. I will leave a list of scriptures for you and any pre tribbers to study and then you can see for yourself what the bible says. read matt 24 verse 4and on also read mark 13 and luke 21 verse 8. In all three of these refrences it says the exact same order of events. This also lines up with what it says in revelations about the trumpets sounding and while we are on that subject check out 1st corinthians 15:52 where it tells you that we will be raptured at the LAST trump. Amos 5:18 and joel 2:31/acts 2:16-21. 2 thess 2:1-12 is also a good read. I would also recomend you study the greek works parousia which means coming or arrival. The word is used 13 times in connection the the second coming of Christ. Other words to find and study in scripture are phanerosis, epiphaneia, apokalypsis, and hemera. These are all greek words found thru out the NT. Col 3:4, titus 2:13 luke 2:31 1 peter 1:7,13 and 4:13, 2 thess 1:7, 1 corinthians 1:8 15:4, 2 peter 3:11-13, and I think also rev 21:5. In the old testament pay close attention to the day of our Lord or just simply the day. If you study all of this in depth including the whole book of revelations it will become extremely obvious what the bible has to say about the tribulation happening before the day of Christs return. also the book of daniel will give evidence also twards the end. +1 on your post Cletus. Your experience is also my experience. God actually showed me while reading the actual bible that the rapture is not pretribulational. I also was not aware of the pre wrath position though i was aware of other positions. I also prayed for quite a while asking him to show me if i should go back to being pre trib or is there another view. After that God showed me the pre wrath view. I admit i was sceptical about it at first but as i understood it more, the bible just jumped right out at me. the bible actually makes sense now on the rapture. When you look back now on the pre trib doctrine you can now see what a holey (as in full of holes) doctrine it is, its even rediculous, sorry if i offend anyone there but thats how i see it now.

Hi Enoch, hows things buddy? Ive not had tome to go through the latest posts today and its almost bed time. I do that tommorrow. But id like you to do just one thing for me. Could you please cite the verse or verses you use to show that the bible says the rapture will be pre tribulational. Please note, and im not trying to be a wise guy, id really just like the scriptures and not an opinion from you or another to prove it, just the scripture ONLY. Thanks mate, look forward to your reply.