Matt36

Nice to meet you also bro and man hugs back. Yep, i live in Aussie. Well i havnt heard of your theory before but it does seem you have a teachable spirit as do i. The Lord hates a proud unteachable spirit, he cant do much with them. So if you like tell me more about your 2 rapture theory, but i might not reply till tommorrow, almost bed time here. God bless you bro. P.S. Did you know that Spock got that sign from a Jewish teacher in a synagogue?

Good stuff Spock. well if you would like to see how i come to the conclusion that the rapture is on the day the Day of the Lord starts then read Rev 7. Rev 7 is an interlude between seals 6 and 7. 7 being the beginning of the Day of the Lord. You will see the 144 thousand sealed but not raptured. They are set apart to go into the Day of the Lord and in chapter 9:4 we see they are still on earth. But the multitude that suddenly appears in heaven are those who came out of great tribulation, that could even be you and i, yes you and i are more than likely mentioned in the bible, just not by name lol. If you go back to my original post, number 56, you might now better understand what ive written. 2 Thess2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? The Thessalonians thought they had missed the rapture and were in the Day of the Lord. Paul showed them that the rapture and the Day of the Lord had not happened because first there had to be a falling away and the man of sin revealed. Thank you for taking the time to listen to me and make a nice comment. God bless you bro. Edit: i personally believe that most of us will not see the rapture. I am of the firm beleif that a large chunk of Gods children will be martyred before hand and it says so in both Matt24 and Rev 6. Facing this reality many i believe will fall away forced to back up their so called faith in the face of death. Stay true, and BE READY for Christ coming guys, dont falter and listen to God.

I hope this chart will help people understand the pre wrath view. Its a good idea to look up the verses quoted. (I used to be pre trib but since ive learned about the pre wrath view the scripture all start to make sense now and flow together nicely, blossom even. Finally the big picture and an easy and clear view of the end times is there. Image thanks to the book, The Sign) Click image to enlarge.

Allow me to ask you a few questions. The Day of the Lord is when He returns, correct? He will not return until His wrath is complete, correct? How is it then, that the first Woe, known as the 5th Trumpet, lasts for 5 months? How is it then, that the math does not add up in your scenario?Thanks for your reply buddy. No he returns at the end of the 7 year tribulation. Yes all his wrath is poured out before he returns. I beleieve the Day of the Lord is when the rapture takes place. I beleieve the repture will happen and that same day the Day of the Lord begins. I beleieve that the rapture take place in rev 7 and between seals 6-7 with 7 being the beginning of the Day of the Lord. As for wrath, seal 6 says that his wrath is about to start and it starts in seal 7. So before seal 7 i beleiev is satans wrath and when the day of the Lord starts its Gods wrath. As we are not appointed to wrath we are raptured out just as it begins on the same day. The Day od the Lord is at least 5 months long as it contains the locust judgement which is that long. But the day of the Lord will begin only after the man of sin is revealed which is after the midpoint of the tribulation. So the day of the Lord begins some time after the midpoint thus meaning it could almost me 3.5 years long. I hope that clears up what im saying because the trumpets happen during the Day of the Lord. The 3.5 years+ before the Day of the Lord is just called tribulation and is satans wrath, not Gods. Feel free to continue to ask me questions. Revelation 9:1-6 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them. Time context= Day of the Lord The 7th Seal is not the Day of the Lord, but an interlude to the 7 Trumpets, as we can read. Revelation 8:1-6 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake. Sounds like Matt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. The silence in heaven i think is there because there is a reality set in that that great and terible Day of the Lord is about to start. the 7 Trumpets are handed to the angels in anticipation of the impending doom that is about to be unleashed on earth. Seal 7 is after the rapture which is in chapter 7. Chapter 7 is an interlude chapter between seals 6 and 7 because in chapter 7 is where the rapture takes place. Take a look at my post number 56 for more clarity. So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. After seal 7 is complete yes

Yes, as we do read in Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.", yet the verse does not say that truth comes this way. As for being told how your theory is wrong, you have been, many times. Unfortunately, you have not been listening, only debating. I have been deliberately ignoring all the side issues you and Enoch2021 have been introducing, in order to hear what your view is on mankind hiding in caves on a day of wrath, and how this can possibly occur before the second coming. Until you can explain this, all your other side issues are minor compared to your view that there is a day God's of wrath at the 6th seal and also again at the 7th bowl. Ignore all you wish, my friend, but keep in mind that not one of us controls the conversation. If I missed a specific request to me about the subject of mankind hiding in caves, I apologize. Keep in mind that I have ministerial duties to preform also. In the 6th Seal, when what is stated to be stars falling from heaven, men do take cover in caves because it is the only safe place to hide ... underground. Why don't I see this as His Second Coming? Because the rest of His Wrath has not been completed. The 7th Seal ushers in the introduction of the 7 Trumpets, not before, as you seem to be telling us. It is not until the 7th Trumpet blows that we see the 7 Bowl Judgments, not before. To follow your line of thinking, one would have to make scripture look like a pretzel, winding here and there. Sorry, but I will stick to how Revelation is written, not adding to or taking away from, nor will I make it a pretzel. Hi Onelight, I beleieve the context is that the 6th seal is where the SIGN of the Son of Man is shown in the heavens. I think its the sign of the coming rapture as we are told in Luke 21:28 to look up as our salvation draws near when we see these signs. Seal 7 introduces the day of the Lord which is his judgement or wrath upon earth in which we are not appointed to. And so you are correct i beleive, it is not his second coming but rather the sudden imminence of the rapture that unfolds in the interlude chapter, chapter 7 Edit: Seal 6 shows that Gods wrath is about to be unleashed. Seal 7 introduces that as the Day of the Lord. But Seal 1-6 are not Gods wrath as the first one clearly states the antichrist is on the loose and so seal 1-6 are satans wrath and from seal 7 onwards is the Day of the Lord, Gods wrath to which we are not appointed. Hope ive made this clear enuf for you to understand.

Hi Montana Marv, in post 56 i set out a detailed overview of what i beleive sets out where the rapture takes place. Its not pre trib but it still takes place before the event you are speaking of. Those events take place during the Day of the Lord and we are not subject to his wrath and so are therefore taken out. but we are subject to satans wrath and we will be there during at least the first half of the tribulation. You never mentioned my post so i thought id mention it to see what you have to say about it.

Spock By two specific earthquakes; The first being, 6th Seal - every mountain and island was removed from its place (islands are found, but moved) Secondly, 7th Bowl - Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. (islands are not found). Zech 9:10b - He will proclaim peace to the nations. His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth. With all the continents reunited, Jerusalem will be the center of the land masses. Zech 14:16 - Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. In Christ Montana Marv In regards to the Islands not being found i beleive that the earth quake preceeding it will cause tsnami and wipe those islands out. Just my opinion. I find it difficult to beleive that the continents will reconnect, but its only a small issue, not something to fight about. Bingo! You and I are one on this issue, Matt. I think these tsunamis we have witnessed the past ten years are a preview of bigger things to come which will wipe out all islands. If I'm living in Hawaii, I might be thinking of moving to Montana. (In honor of my dear brother here.) Cool stuff spock' The bible even says there will be Tsnamis and thay happen at the time of the rapture and the beginning of the Day of the Lord in my opinion. Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Yeah Hawaii isnt too safe bro, but neither will be the united states in my opinion for other reasons. I live in Australia in Sydney. Im about to move to a remote country/outback area so i can continue to preach and spread the word during the tribulation which i beleive is extremely close, Remember that in Matthew it said, Matt24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Well i beleive the fig tree is Israel is the fig tree as its often decribed as such in other parts of the bible. So its prophecy saying that when you see Israel returned to the land that same generation shall see the Son of man coming. That generation is now 66 years old. Exciting times bro

Im sorry if i have offended you, No offence intended bro, just called it as i saw it. If it upsets you that much ill stop talking about if ok. Cheers Enoch

====================================================================================== After the Rapture ("Restrainer" is taken out of the way)......."That Wicked" is revealed. (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:" And, So........? They should be since that's the Main Point of "Great Tribulation": (Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early." Michael is not some Rogue Archangel that does what he wants..... GOD'S in Control. And from the Passage above, it appears GOD has a Purpose. You are free to beleive as you like Enoch. But you havnt shown me anything solid that shows my context as incorrect. In fact, you tend to back me up without realising it, especially on the other thread. You really need to start listening to God and not what religion has been teaching you. I also beleived what you beleived untill the holy spirit showed me while actually reading the bible that i was wrong.

============================================================== Just a couple. It's one thing to struggle @ times with Scripture....it's quite another to give personal advice authoritatively based on contrived opinions. Why because you said so? Or that it's written in Greek? And, how can the point be Silent? Mute = Silent. If you were going for "moot" here, it's often practice to provide rationale...... otherwise, it's just Baseless Labeling. Strong's 2342 // yhrion // therion // thay-ree'-on // 1) an animal 2) a wild animal, wild beast, beast 3) metaph. a brutal, bestial man, savage, ferocious (Revelation 14:11) "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." (Revelation 13:4) "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?" (Revelation 6:8) "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." (Revelation 11:7) "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them." (Revelation 13:18) "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." All the same word in the Greek. Context is King. What Bible are you reading? See Response and Scriptures above....with Special Attention to Rev 11:7, 13:18, 13:4. The ac is a Hybrid (Beast and man) and so are the 10 Kings....Including the Final 7, 8 (little horn) counting the ac.... See Dan 2:43. Bud, ill start answering any more questions you have when you have watched the video by chriss white. Reason is i need you to fully have a grasp of my position cause otherwise i need to take alot of time answering your questions that i dont have. If you want to remain pre trib then thats fine. But im interested in decent discussion and not just back and forth banter. if you really do want to know the truth or discuss with me then please watch the video. Sorry man, no offence intended, just sayin. Edit: all those words for beast you posted in those verses as in anti christ are on the greek "therion" So....yes context is king, can you show me where in the context we are talking about animals and not end time destruction starring the antichrist? Remember seal 1 is already talking about the antichrist!!!

Spock By two specific earthquakes; The first being, 6th Seal - every mountain and island was removed from its place (islands are found, but moved) Secondly, 7th Bowl - Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. (islands are not found). Zech 9:10b - He will proclaim peace to the nations. His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth. With all the continents reunited, Jerusalem will be the center of the land masses. Zech 14:16 - Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. In Christ Montana Marv In regards to the Islands not being found i beleive that the earth quake preceeding it will cause tsnami and wipe those islands out. Just my opinion. I find it difficult to beleive that the continents will reconnect, but its only a small issue, not something to fight about.

=================================================================================== No it isn't, (Daniel 12:1) "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." As I said, "Great Prince" that standeth for "thy people" = Daniel's People = Israel. Daniel or Gabriel wouldn't be talking about the Church because...The Church was a Mystery until Paul revealed it in Ephesians Chapter 3. And that time of trouble he's referring to is the Time of Jacob's Trouble.... (Jeremiah 30:7) "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it." I'm sure Michael has other duties but that's a Guess....His Main Mission is in Defense of Israel and Scripture bears that out. "The Church" is not one of his missions as the two are not mentioned together in any capacity in Scripture @ all.....Zero. Any duties other than a Military Commander/Warrior for Israel is Absolute Blind Speculation. What do you think happens after the restrainer lifts his restraining? He allows satan to do his thing and stops inhibiting him. Last time i checked Israel is right there at the tribulation.

============================================================================== Yes I know the Language the NT is written in...and it has nothing to do with my point. Matthew's "Target Audience" is the Jews. Just like it was Paul's Mission to focus on the Gentiles and Peter's Mission was to focus on the believing Jew. Same concept. Target audience is everyone Enoch. And its a mute point anyway. Please show exactly where in Matthew 24:9 I did show you Enoch. Look again. Yes, I know what it is. It still has nothing to do with the ac and context is King. This Pale Horse is Pestilence and Famine..... In keeping with that context a good possibility is Bacteria and Viruses. Who said they were starving? Who said "in every city all over the World"?...... It says he was given power over the Fourth Part of The Earth: (Revelation 6:8) "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." Beast as in the AC, i already showed you that the greek translates as a dominion of a man. You cannot bring in private interpretation of scripture, you must use the original words, not english translation words to find the real meaning. You must allow scripture to interprete scripture. Moreover, How can it be the ac when he's not released from the Bottomless Pit until Chapter 9? The Pale Horse is the Fourth Seal and the Beast from the Bottomless Pit is post... 5th Trumpet. Please explain. Are you saying that the antichrist comes from the bottomless pit? Daneil clearly states he is a man and so does revelation. Yes it is Antiochus IV (Epiphanes) from the entire context of Chapter 11, (Dan 11:1-34). He also took away the Daily Sacrifice, killed pigs on the Holy Alter, and erected a Statue to Zeus in the Holy of Holy's in 167 BC. It's a "Type" and Christ referred to it in the Olivet Discourse as a fore-shadowing of a future event...to take place again. There is some cross-over between the 2 separate events that is difficult to differentiate towards the end of the Chapter. Clearly you are ignoring the scriptures Enoch. Please explain how the TIME OF THE END isnt the latter days. Time of the end always refers to the end of days in scripture, clearly you are not allowing scripture to interpret scripture. Well this is where there is much confusion. Many people call the entire 70th Week of Daniel "The Tribulation".....That's Incorrect. Christ Labels the last 3 1/2 years beginning with the Abomination of Desolation as "The Great Tribulation" in the Olivet Discourse. Does that automatically mean the first 3 1/2 years are just "plain Tribulation"? From the text, the first 3 1/2 years were a time of Peace. No, the 70th week is the 7 years in entirety. The Day of the Lord starts sometime after the midpoint. Please post Scripture Support for the "day of the Lord" as 5 months? I said its al least five months. I was saying its not a literal 24 hrs. The 5 Months was given to the locusts, from the bottomless pit, to torment men (Except the Sealed 144,000). This is after the 5th Trumpet has sounded.....You still have 2 more Trumpets (2 more "Woe's" from Revelation 8:13) and 7 Vials left to go. As i said above Aren't all the: Seals, Trumpets, and Vials all GOD'S Judgements/Wrath? Not upon his children The Jews Re-gathering spoken of in Ezekiel has nothing whatsover to do with The Doctrine of Imminence. The Doctrine of Imminence is strictly related to the Second Coming. Ezekiel shows at cannot be imminent untill ezikiels prphecy is fullfilled. Can you explain how Christ could return or the rapture could happen if Israel didnt exist??? You cant, so untill 1948 it was IMMPOSSIBLE for Christ to return and this the doctine of imminence is not of God. So your saying that the second comming of Christ is imminent even tho the rapture and the 7 years of tribulation have not happened? massive holes in your theologu bro! Please show where it would and does.... since it has already occurred? Im not following you here sorry. The Temple has to be standing for the Abomination of Desolation to occur, Obviously. Who says it has to be in place before the 70th Week of Daniel? I've heard of plans to erect it and have it standing in less than 6 months.....when the time comes. Yeah true, it can be erected in 6 months hence Christ cannot come for at least 6 months right hence the doctrine of imminence is not correct as 6 months is NOT imminent and who says they will start biulding it today, could be a year off or more. Even if they erected the Temple tomorrow it still wouldn't impact the Doctrine of Imminence. It could stand there for hundreds of years without impacting The Doctrine. The Confirming of the Covenant for 7 years is the Key Event....then and only then could you get your Calendar and Watch out. No because he cannot come until there first be a falling away and that man of sin be revealed and neither has happened yet, so its not imminent. Follow? Daniel 9:27 is the Key Prophecy and Basis for The Doctrine of Imminence. IMMINENT or Doctrine of Imminence: The Next Expectation; No Proceeding Event. There is no proceeding event...and believers are taught to conduct their lives in a moment to moment expectancy of Our Coming KING; its all through the NT (Phil 3:20; Titus 2:13; Heb 9:28; 1 Thess 1:10; 4:18, 5:6, Rev 22:20). And here.... The Doctrine of Imminence is rather intuitive based on (Just a few)....... (Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." True how does this get in the way of any scripture ive shown? (Mark 13:32) " But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not." I cant see imminence here, just to be ready. (2 Peter 3:10) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."Day of the Lord is not the second comming but the divin judgement, you yourself said its not a 24 hr period but is at least longer than 5 months. So you misquote scripture. However the rapture will happen the same day the day of the Lord starts. Which is Rev chapter 8 after the first 6 seals and they havnt happened yet, So again, it is not imminent. (**And many Others) Now comparing Scripture with Scripture: Time, Times, and a Dividing of Time: (Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 12:14); 1260 Days: (Rev 11:3, Rev 12:6, Rev 12:14); 42 Months: Rev 11:2, Rev 13:5.... These all speak to the time from the Abomination of Desolation to Christ's Return. Here's the problem....anyone even with a cursory knowledge of Scripture (Especially Dan and Rev) one could pretty much Mark their Calendars and Set their Watches from the Abomination of Desolation......3 1/2 years in Anticipation of Christ. Which then would nullify (and dozens more).....You just backed up everything ive said. Except timing. So you agree that Christ can only return when the abomination of desolation is present, he is not present is he. So Christs return is not imminent. It also shows that he cannot come till the mid point when the abomination of desolation is revealed. As for timing, knowere have i said its the mid point. i said its after the mid point. So, no you cant work out the day or the time. (Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." All who've read and understood those passages Would Know. Yep agreed Basically all positions (Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath-Post Trib) besides Pre-Trib, deny the Doctrine of Imminence. For goor reason, its of Satan, to make you think you will not go into tribulation, to make you unprepared, this is one reason i beleive there will ba a great falling away, because of the ore trib rapture and doctrine of imminece doctrines cause those who beleived in it to junk their faith and turn away. Exactly, eh? "The Church" and The "Tribulation Saints" are 2 different Groups. No, thay are not. . The deciples asked when shall the END OF THE AGE BE? The church age, and he clearly stated it ends after the tribulation ends. Therfore all saints are the church untill we enter the millenial age. Above you said "the day of the Lord" is 5 months or the the duration of the locusts from the Bottomless Pit. How can we be removed before the "day of the Lord" and still suffer your 5 months proposition? I said its at least that long more than likely it will be almost 3.5 years long but not quite. There will be those who are saved during the time of the Day of the Lord, such as many jews for a start and many in other nations that survive to go into the new mellenia. Also, are you saying Rev Chapter 9 occurs before Rev Chapter 4? No after. Again, List "satan's wraths" and who is the Target? You and me First don't Equivocate (Fallacy) Persecution/Sufferings/Tribulation (Little "t") with "The Great Tribulation". The former is sourced from the World the latter is sourced by GOD! Big Difference. Not really tribualtion is tribulation. Why is it that millions of Christians have been martyred of the millenias including thousands at this very moment but you are too precious to have the same path? I look at it this way, i will be more than willing to suffer for Christ and to go through the fire and come out the other side. GOD's Wrath begins with the Breaking of Seals in Chapter 6....No, Seal 6. And it says so, it says that the day of his wrath is come. The time of the rapture and the beginning of the Day of the Lord (Revelation 6:16-17) "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: {17} For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"There No, exactly the opposite. Please show the first half or 3 1/2 years as "Tribulation" from Scripture? I already did The Rapture and the Second Coming are two separate events. And according to your "day of the Lord" above, the "five months" is Non-Sequitur. Thats correct And more importantly, the "day of the Lord" is the same as the "day of vengeance" here....Yep (Jeremiah 46:10) "For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates." Which then points to.... (Isaiah 63:1-6) "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. {2} Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? {3} I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. {4} For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. {5} And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. {6} And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth." Which most Specifically points to.... (Revelation 19:13-16) "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." No arguement here This :rolleyes: is the "day of the LORD" The Second Coming. This is just after the Marriage Supper in Heaven with HIS Wife "The Church" and she's following clothed in "fine linen, white and clean". How can she follow HIM from Heaven if she's not Raptured before this?She is raptured before this, i really dont think you follow me correctly. First: "the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ" and "day of Christ" are not the same. Let me explain.... In Verse 1: "by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him," --------------------------------->The Rapture Correct Verse 2: "the day of Christ" is at hand" -------------------------------------------------> Second Coming No, the Day of Christ is the Day of the Lord jesus Christ. The thessalonians if you read the book correctly beleived they had missed the rapture and were currently in the Day of the Lord. Hence the reason Paul said to "remember i told you" And went on to tell them that the rapture and the Day of the Lord hasnt yet come as the falling away and the man of sin had not yet been revealed!!! See the difference?No GOD'S WORD is extremely Precise.... (Matthew 5:18) " For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." If these two ( "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "the day of Christ") were the same, then why didn't Paul in the very next Verse, just say...... "that day" of Christ...... because he just referenced it and is a direct reference to the Antecedent (coming of our Lord Jesus Christ).As above But that's not what he said..... What did he say....that "the" day of Christ. The "The" is a game changer in this specific instance and differentiates ( coming of our Lord Jesus Christ from the day of Christ) And, you forgot the rest of the passage.......The Details:As above (2 Thessalonians 2:3-9) "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; {4} Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. {5} Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? {6} And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. {7} For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,"Thanks, so the day of the Lord and the rapture cannot come till the man of sin be revealed. Just as i said right. The "he" is the Holy Spirit.... For him ("That Wicked") to be revealed, the "RESTRAINER" must be removed!! The "Restrainer" is The Holy Spirit and was given to the Body of Christ ("The Church") after Christ left. The restrainer is Michael (John 14:16) " And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"Exactly, so he wont be removed. (John 14:26) " But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."Yes including the tribulation saints and those in the Day of the Lord. (John 16:7) " Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." Jesus had to Leave for the "Comforter to Come". Who did he give it to......"The Church", FOREVER! It appears from John, that they (Jesus and the Comforter) can't be on the Earth @ the same time.......Church age ends when the millenial raign starts. Daniels 7th week is in the church age The obvious Implication with this is....When Christ Physically Returns, the Holy Spirit must be departed. Hence...."The Church" is not on the Earth. Christ returns at the end of the 7 years so yes he will not be taken out. There is absolutely NO WAY the Comforter/Restrainer......Leaves The Church, HE'S the Embodiment of it ! Absolutley So since that is the case and the ac has to be "revealed" to Confirm the Covenant, here.... (Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." The Church is removed before the 70th Week of Daniel. Where does it say that?? Jesus said the end of the age will be after the antichrist is revealed in Matt24 Savvy? The Main Goal of the Great Tribulation is for The Jewish Remnant to Petition the Lord to Return.... (Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early." satans goal is to Kill them before they can do it. Please watch the video i linked as i dont think you have a full grasp of what im saying. It doesnt seem very clear to you. Please go to my utube page on utube and type in AHL.AHL and you will get my channel. Then look for Chris whites video in my video section. Id rather you watch it before you comment back so that you have a clearer understanding of my point of view. I understand yours completely as for most of my Christian life ive also been a pre tribber. Can you please get back to me after watching the video, id like to see what scriptures you can use to counter it in the name of truth. Thanks buddy. Matt

===================================================================== Michael is a Military Commander/Warrior always in Defense of Israel. The "thy people" is Daniels people....Israel. Show one Scripture where Michael and "The Church" are mentioned together? From the substance of this and other of your posts, it appears you're having difficulty distinguishing between Israel and "The Church". They have different Origins and Different Destinies. Enoch, your answer is right there in the verses i mentioned......and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: I guess this is the Day of the Lord hence its happen in the end of the CHURCH AGE and the beggining of the Day of the Lord. If you are suggesting Michael ONLY EXCLUSIVELY serves Israel then i find that a little difficult.

In what manner is Michael removed in Rev 12. The only entity I see being removed in Rev 12 is Satan, who is removed from his heavenly location, and thrown down to earth. Well i beleive that Michael will do his thing in Rev 8 not 12. Tho it is not mentioned he does so, thats the time that the rapture happens and the Day of the Lord starts. To understand this more see my commints in the post tribbers please explain section

Thanks for taking the time to reply Enoch. My words in blue. ========================================================================== First Welcome I have also come across some of Chris White's material. He has some good work; however, much is off the reservation IMHO....this fits the latter. Also Bear in mind, Matthew is a Jew and his Book is "Heavily Jewish" and his audience is for the Jews. As opposed to Luke who is a Gentile and speaks to Gentiles. Compare and Contrast Matthew 24 and Luke 21 they are not the same. Also the Lineage....Matthew starts @ Abraham (The First Jew) where Luke starts with Adam. Many other nuances in each Book. It was written in greek not hebrew but it does take in a jewish slant, but it is written for everyone, not a singlr group. The First 3 Seals look good. This is The Last Horseman (Pale Horse): This is Famine and Pestilence and such and does not match Matt 24:9 whatsoever. Well it does if you see how the proper use of the greek text matches. And Beasts is exactly what it says "BeastS" (Plural) not THE Beast (Singular) or ac. The greek word is "thērion" and is singular. It has two meanings, a beast, wild animal, Mk. 1:13; Acts 10:12; met. a brute, brutish man, Tit. 1:12 Context determins the correct meaning. Starving beasts of the feild are not exactly going to be killing mankind in every city all over the world. It just doesnt make as much sense. But to help is the word "by" as in "by the beasts of the earth"(translation ive used has the worth with) The greek word is "hypo" translating as (1) gen., under; hence, used to express influence, causation, agency; by, Mt. 1:22 freq.; by the agency of, at the hands of, 2 Cor. 11:24; Heb. 12:3. (2) acc., under, with the idea of motion associated, Mt. 5:15; under, Jn. 1:49; 1 Cor. 10:1; under subjection to, Rom. 6:14; 1 Tim. 6:1; of time, at, about, Acts 5:21 The the word Earth is "ge" translating as, earth, soil, Mt. 13:5; Mk. 4:8, et al.; the ground, surface of the earth, Mt. 10:29; Lk. 6:49, et al.; the land, as opposed to the sea or a lake, Lk. 5:11; Jn. 21:8, 9, 11; the earth, world, Mt. 5:18, 35, et al.; by synec. the inhabitants of the earth, Mt. 5:13; 6:10; 10:34; a land, region, tract, country, territory, Mt. 2:20; 14:34;by way of eminence, the chosen land, Mt. 5:5; 24:30; 27:45; Eph. 6:3; the inhabitants of a region or country, Mt. 10:15; 11:24, et al. So i guess it is entirely a reality that the proper use of the words match Matt24:9 where we to be delivered up to be killed by the antichrist. Be very careful not to add or take away from the WORD. See Warnings: Rev 22:18-19 (See above) The Four Horseman (The First Four Seals) match up with Matthews signs below. Note: These are just the beginning of sorrows. (Matthew 24:7-8) " For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. {8} All these are the beginning of sorrows." Rev 6:9 The Martyrs....... have Zero to do with Matthew 24:15 or Dan 11. Moreover, Daniel Chapter 11 is speaking to the First "Abomination of Desolation" Antiochus IV (Epiphanes). The context of Dan 11 is end of days not antiochus. See here: Dan11: 31...and shall take away the daily sacrifice" This does happen mid term of the 7 years. Dan11:35 ...even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. End of time is the end of the age. Sounds like latter days to me. Please pay attention to detail it's very important. Matthew 24:29 is talking about "After" Tribulation..... Rev Chapter 6 Tribulation is just "Beginning". The Signs in the Moon are Different between the two passages.... Thats correct, after the tribulation but before great tribulation or the Day of the Lord Its mid term or some time after in the trib. The day of the Lord has a judgement that is 5 months long so we know the Day of the Lord is at the very least that long. (Matthew 24:29) " Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:" (Revelation 6:12) "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;" "moon became as blood" is also confirmed in ACTS as happening "Before"... (Acts 2:20) "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:" Exactly as i said Also you're "get ready to be raptured" is Non-Sequitur....The Mystery of "The Church" was HID from the beginning of the world and wasn't revealed until it was Paul's Pleasure to reveal it in Eph 3. The doctrine of imminence for the rapture is an incorrect one. For a start, the jews had to return to the land first so for thousands of years it was NOT imminent and he still cannot come until the third temple is biult as he cames after the man of sin is revealed which happens mid point. Thess There is no "Rapture" here. Revelation 7:9 is referring to the Tribulation Saints....They came out of The Great Tribulation. The Church was Raptured before Chapter 4: Exactly, you and i are going to go through the tibulation and suffer the wrath of satan but removed before the Day of the Lord which is Gods wrath. (See: 2 Thess 2:3-9) in connection with Daniel 9:27. Seven Lampstands (Identified as The Churches Rev Chapter 1) on the Earth in Chapter 1 In Heaven Chapter 4. Characteristics of the 24 Elders (The Redeemed, Kings and Priests) Kings and Priests Identified as The Church Rev Chapter 1 and 1 Peter 2:5 The Great Tribulation is God's Wrath, He Promised "The Church" they will not see HIS Wrath....(1 Thessalonians 5:9) "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," No, the Day of the Lord is Gods wrath, the tribulation is NOT. True we do not suffer Gods wrath, but in the world we shall suffer much tribulation right? See also: Matthew doesn't speak of the Church and verse 30 in Context is....."After" Tribulation of those days....You seem to count the full 7 years as tribulation but it is broken up into tribulation and great tribulation or the Day of the Lord. So yes the church is there during the first half, simply called tribulation. (Matthew 24:29) "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:" Yep I don't see a Specific Connection between these 2 Passages. Matthew 24:37 is much deeper (See Mischief of Genesis 6 and connection with the Days of Noah). Christ is also speaking to the Unbelievers here not watching and juxtaposing with the same condition of Unbelievers @ HIS Second Coming.The conection is that the rapture is going to be quick and sudden and the inbeleivers will see it not untill it is done. It also, and most importantly both passages alude the the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The Rapture happens on the very same day the the Day of the Lord starts. That is the theme of both passages. 1. The First 4 Seals match the Beginning of Sorrow Signs in: (Matthew 24:7, Mark 13:8, and Luke 21:10-11) 2. Can't have the Rapture after the Mid Point, it violates dozens of Scriptures and The Doctrine of Imminence....Like i said, doctine of imminence is a furphy. Can you provide the scriptures? (Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." And this still holds true, i dont know the date, nor can you know the date from anything i have said. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of Scripture, especially Daniel and Revelation, and who are still here viewing the Abomination of Desolation can pull out their Calendars and set their watches for the Second Coming of Christ. This also points to a Pre-70th week of Daniel Rapture of "The Church"; which confirms....Incorrect, no-where have i set out a way of knowing. (Revelation 3:10) " Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Keep: "ek"......Out of, Away from. 3. Define the "Day of The Lord"? And Scripture Support for the "Immediately" precedes The Rapture. 2Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4. You have to differentiate Believers: (The Church, Tribulation Saints, 144,000, Jewish Believing Remnant) Are you saying others besides "The Church" are Raptured? If so, Provide Scripture Support. No List the "wraths" from satan? And who "Specifically" is he Targeting? He targets those of God. Matt24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. there are so many, but ive no time to post them now. Well i hope this cleared up things for you so you can understand my position a little better even if you dont agree with it. Its a good thing to discuss things like this so the body of Christ can learn from one another. Can you do me a favor and watch the video i posted? I know its long but it really does answer all your questions and its makes a clearer picture than i can provide. Then let me know what you think. Thanks buddy.

I beleive the restrainer is Michael the archangel as described in Daniel 12:1-2 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Hi guys, my first post. This is how i see it currently, and im not claiming to be right. My beliefs have changed alot over the decades as continue to learn. I am open to be shown otherwise. Matt 24 compares with Rev 6 and 7. 1st seal (False christs) Matt24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. This i see as the Antichrist going forth deceiving. 2nd seal (wars) Matt24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: Rev6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. 3rd seal (famines) Matt24:7 .... and there shall be famines, Rev6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. 4th seal (killed and hated) Matt24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Rev6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. Beasts should be translated as "beast" as in the antichrist. 5th seal (Death) Matt24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,(Mid point of the 7 years of tribulation) (whoso readeth, let him understand:).......21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Dan11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. (Dan11 shows how matt24 and Rev 6 tie in timewise) Rev6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. 6th seal (Sun moon stars) Matt24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Or Luke reads as: Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. (Get ready to be raptured. Told to look up for this as this point which is after the mid point of the trib now) Rev6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?(About to begin the Day of the Lord) Interlude. Rapture! Matt24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Rev7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 7th seal (Wrath of God) Remember Rev 6:17 said that the wrath of God is about to be released. Matt24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Matt speaks of the Son of Man coming, we have seen this happens just as the Day of the Lord starts. Rev 8 shows the first Day of the day of the Lord.) Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. So, we see how letting scripture interpret scripture we can see the following: 1. How the 7 seals match to Matt 24 2. The timing of the rapture. ( Some time after the mid point of the trib) 3. That the Day of the Lord immediatly preceeds the rapture. 4. How beleivers suffer Satans wrath in the tribulation but are removed before God wrath on the Day of the Lord. This work i got from Chris White in his video which i have uploaded in my Utube channel. See it here: *** Video removed - we have a forum for videos. All videos have to be posted in the video forum, any outside of the video forum will be removed. ***