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ARGOSY

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ARGOSY last won the day on February 23 2016

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About ARGOSY

  • Birthday 04/11/1968

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    Beach, bodysurfing, creationism, tennis, eschatology, history, hiking, football, rugby, cricket

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  1. Hide yourself, as it were, FOR A LITTLE MOMENT, Until the indignation is past. Precisely how long is the "little moment." 2 hours? 7 years? If you are able to give precise biblical evidence of how long that particular little moment is, then we should be able to pinpoint what indignation is being referred to. If you are unable to give anything more than assumption, this could be referring to a period of a few hours, and the indignation of wrath of the great earthquake and Armageddon.
  2. Yeah occasionally in other time periods, your way of viewing the noun apostasia could be correct. Not quite game, set and match hmm? As for the verb, that has a different meaning and so it's usage is irrelevant. Just because it has the same root, and similar spelling, does not mean it is the verb form of the noun "apostasia". The meanings have diversified, the verb staying with the root meaning of physical departure, and the noun now relating to revolt, rebels, rebellions, political strife, and in a religious sense apostasy and defection. The verb has moved too far away from the meaning of the noun, for it's usage to have any relevance to this chat. Yours is the view of unlikely possibilities, mine is the view of accepting the face value meaning of the Bible. If we stay in the realm of unlikely possible interpretations, we can get way off track. If we stick strictly to the most obvious face value meaning of any text, we can develop a wholesome and integrated viewpoint, difficult to find flaws.
  3. Sure some verbs and nouns retain aspects of the original meaning over time, other words develop and change their meaning over time. I'm stating the obvious. So to understand a word, you need to see how society used that word at that time. Regarding context, new subjects are introduced into sentences all the time. We cannot disregard the meaning of words, just because a new subject comes up.
  4. You try to make it sound like the verb and the noun are still have the same meaning as their root word. Sometimes verbs and nouns stay connected to their root words, and sometimes the meaning changes over time. Eg the root word for govern, is Latin "gubernator" which means a ships pilot. The meaning has changed. Your huge explanations do not detract from the simple fact that whatever the origins of the word "apostasia" means defection/revolt. The word is not associated with "departure", but is associated with rebels and rebellion. from Ancient Greek ἀποστασία (apostasía, “defection, revolt”). Long posts cannot change the simple meaning of a Greek word 2000 years ago, that is still used today. Sure some verb with the same roots and similar spelling may have a different meaning, but it's just a word with same roots and similar spelling, with a different meaning.
  5. It means "forsake". Defection. Revolt. Apostasy. Not depart. The gathering (rapture) will not occur until the forsaking occurs, and the antichrist is revealed. Check a modern Greek dictionary or an ancient one it means apostasy, revolt. From Latin apostasia, from Ancient Greek ἀποστασία (apostasía, “defection, revolt”) And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to FORSAKE G646 Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. You and Dr Woods may disagree, but that's the meaning of the word, to forsake. To cherry pick one pre-trib expert opinion, isn't "game, set, match". It's decision "overruled".
  6. Isaiah 26? How long is "a little moment"? 2 hours? 7 years? I dont think we can force a doctrine from two words that don't hint at a timeframe. Another thought is that Israel must hide during the GT, in their safe place in the wilderness. Isaiah 26 is hardly a proof verse for the rapture, in fact the primary descriptions of the rapture are at the coming of Christ, which is actually a coming. If it is Christ coming, then it's the second coming. The Bible places the rapture at the second coming.
  7. The elect is the church. Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness 1 Peter 1 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
  8. I dont buy that extended day of the Lord view. It is often in context of an actual day, but Pretribs like to extend it. Post tribs do not need to extend it. It's just one of those mental gymnastics that pretribbers need to use, but nothing contradicts the simpler view that the day of the Lord, is a day.
  9. You would need gymnastics to support you view, the straightforward reading of the text, is that our gathering does NOT occur until the antichrist is revealed: Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will Not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed That's straightforward until Pretrib start messing with the logic. They mustn't be concerned that they missed some big events, they haven't missed anything, the antichrist will be revealed FIRST. As for two old coots agreeing on a verse in Isaiah, that's neither here nor there, what verse?
  10. Exactly, two or three witnesses. We are gathered earlier on that day, I keep agreeing with you that we are gathered first, then the wrath occurs. Where we may differ is that I believe it all occurs on the same day, the day of the second coming. Multiple verses confirm that the gathering into the clouds occurs at the coming of Christ. Your post confirms this, as do the two main descriptions of the gathering as per 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15. Does the second coming occur on the same day as a day of wrath and destruction? Read this folks, 1 Thess 4/5: we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words. Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. Confirmed again, our gathering is associated with the day of the Lord, the thief in the night, and destruction of the ungodly, just as per the gathering of the saints in the Olivet Discourse in Matt 24 at the second coming. Are there two comings, two gatherings, two last trumpets, two resurrections. No folks, just one.
  11. 1 Cor 15 We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and WE will be changed (living believers will be changed) Where is any earlier rapture if 1 Cor 15 says us living believers will be raptured at the resurrection, at the coming of Christ? The resurrection occurs at the beginning of the millennium, not 7 years earlier at some earlier rapture.
  12. I noticed you didn't deal with my point that the descriptions of a rapture in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15, involve the coming of Christ. Its interesting that the Bible calls the rapture of the saints, the coming of Christ, yet pre-tribbers don't like to call that the second coming.
  13. As I said, I am pre-wrath because the rapture comes earlier on that day, then the war of Rev 19. The Olivet Discourse describes the gathering of the saints at the second coming. 1 Thess 4 describes the rapture at the "coming of the Lord", not earlier. 1 Cor 15 describes the rapture as a resurrection "when he comes" (both the resurrection, and Jesus coming, are obviously second coming events) 2 Thess 2 states the antichrist must come first then the gathering. Every time the rapture is mentioned, it is in second coming context, I see no need for complicated explanations when the face value meaning works just fine. (and a "swoop" is a coming, because the Bible has no problem calling it a coming)
  14. Interesting what you say about the proximity of the Mt of Olives to Jehosaphat. Sure I'm pre-wrath. I believe we miss the wrath at the second coming, the resurrection occurring earlier in the day. The winepress of wrath outside Jerusalem in the valley of Jehosaphat occurring later in the day. We are raptured earlier, but even though mortal Israel endures more of the wrath on that day, they too will be saved from certain destruction through the intervention of the heavenly army. We will be in that army, those wearing the white linen of Rev 19.
  15. Thanks for the reply, my view is similar, but being post-trib not quite the same. I believe the nations will be judged for how they treat Christians and Israel. On a national, not individual basis. I don't quite agree with your Jehosaphat comparison, that is specifically the destruction of all the attacking armies on the DOTL, in the mountainous area to the East of Jerusalem, also known as the winepress of wrath in Rev 14 and Rev 19. But forgetting the details, I agree that the saved are resurrected earlier, and the better nations survive the second coming and populate the millennium. The bad nations are destroyed at the second coming.
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