Persuaded

Agree, nothing man made in heaven...

                                                           ... except His scars.

Now when Christ blessed be his name speak of the olive tree and saying when its leafs are tender know that the end is near and they or them says its a nation but now you say its a man rather two men where is your reasoning on this matter its the same Christ blessed be his name why now this that you say men. Look at the latter part of revelation 11 Christ has said look at the little things and all will be givin to ya so look at two words in this chapter they and them and seek the meaning.

That's the fig tree in Mat 24, with the tender leaves.

Fig tree and vineyard are frequent idioms of Israel and Judah (I forget which is which; if you're curious it wouldn't be hard to figure out...)

"Science" isn't as binary as theological doctrine. Things aren't "proven", generally. There is a pile of evidence on one side, and a pile on another, and maybe twenty other piles for different nuances to the theory. Sometimes one pile gets a lot taller, while there remains convincing contrary evidences in another pile. I find eschatology to be similar!

I don't support evolution in any of its guises (I see "after their own kind" several times in Gen 1, and that's enough for me!), but I believe it is scientifically possible or probable and theologically probable that God created the universe some time (what is time to God?) before he began his focus on our earth.

When I read of the dragon doing something, I generally see him as doing something through one of the earthly powers/kings. In the same way that Ezekiel 28:12 begins as a lament against Tyrus and then shifts and looks through Tyrus at the power behind his throne and rails against Lucifer himself, or the way the angel in Daniel 10 was withstood by the "prince of the kingdom of Persia". These kings have a spiritual component behind them, and we generally "see" the physical, earthly kings' actions. In John's visions, he is given the ability to see things as they really are, as Daniel and Ezekiel did.

So in Rev 12 as the dragon tries to devour the man child as it is born, it most directly refers to Satan's schemes to kill Christ (Herod and the babies of Bethlehem, the jewish leadership trying to stone/throw Him off a cliff etc, and ultimately the cross), but it also refers idiomatically to the woman as Israel giving birth to "the seed of the woman" of Gen 3 as she through her history has been the channel from which the Messiah must come. After the cross, it is a proof of Israel's future role and importance that the dragon has continued to attempt to devour her seed- the world's and the historical church's generally anti-Semitic views that have lead to the crusades, the inquisition, the holocaust, and Islam.

Next, the beast of Rev 13 with its seven heads and ten horns has them all at the same time, not sequentially. Same with Neb's image, it had ten toes all at once, Dan 2:44 "And in the days of these kings [the ten toes] shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, [but] it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever." I take this to be a confederation of nations, consisting of remnants of the never-conquered Roman empire that may or may not exist today.

Rev 13:7 KJV " And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

and

Dan 7:21 KJV "I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;"

and

Mat 16:18 KJV "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

...all in the Church are saints, but not all saints are in the Church. Tribulation saints are those that are saved from among the earth-dwellers. They are not in the category of "Church". Our citizenship is in heaven, we tabernacle on the earth, and we are not "those that dwell on the earth" that so frequently show up in Rev. It is an interesting study to see what is promised to the Revelation saints, versus what is promised to the Church. Saints serve the throne, but the church rules with Him, that kind of thing.

John the Baptist was not Church.

Mat 11:13 KJV "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John."

^no, I'm not very clued in to new age stuff, nor have I read the Message, nor plan to...

Yes, and I suggest "light-bearers" means the same as lamp stands, but nudges your understanding a little closer to its meaning in 11 of the 12 places it is used in the NT. (The Heb 9 instance is a reference to the tabernacle lamp stand, which ties the olive tree/oil into the discussion).

Candlestick is the unfortunate KJV word used, which further obfuscates the "witness" meaning/connotation that is implied in each usage.

Abraham

One of my favorite types in the bible occurs with Abraham in Genesis 22.

 

This is a favorite for me as well, Abraham as a father offering Isaac as a son, paralleling the Father offering His Son.

I find it interesting that the Holy Spirit seems to actually distort the original text to make it better fit the model.

He starts with: "Take now thy son, thine only [son] Isaac, whom thou lovest" which is (on its face) untrue in Abraham's case- he had another son in Ishmael. Also interesting is that this is the first use of the word "love", in referring to an only son about to be sacrificed.

It takes three days to arrive at the mountain, during which time Isaac was dead to Abraham: Hebrews 11:19 says he received Isaac from the dead figuratively. This is one of the OT scriptures that Paul spoke of: 1Co 15:4 "And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures"

Next, also in v2: "...and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of." Jerusalem is one of the mountains in the land of Moriah. It is my personal conviction that the offering of Isaac occurred on the same hill where our Father offered His Son. My only proof is a conviction that God doesn't leave his putts 6 inches from the cup!

v5:"and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you." Abraham believed that God would bring them both back. (again, Heb 11:19 "Accounting that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.")

v6: Isaac carries the wood of the sacrifice up the hill. Later, another Son carries the wood of His sacrifice up the same hill.

v7: Isaac asks "where is the lamb?" In John 1, John the Baptist declares "Behold the lamb of God".

v13: The ram is sacrificed instead. The ram becomes it's own type of Christ in the form of the Levitical scapegoat. (Lev 16).

v14: "And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said [to] this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen." Abraham, by choosing this name, knew he was foreshadowing a future event.

v19: "So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went together..." After the offering, Isaac's name is expunged from the record, so to speak. He obviously came down the mountain with Abraham, right? Most people stop looking at the typology of the offering somewhere around v14, but look a little further! After his death, Jesus returns to heaven and sends the HS in His place, until the time He joins His bride. This is the exact narrative that is played out through Gen 25.

Although we know Abraham's servant's name from earlier passages (Gen 15, Eliezer, one whom God helps or comforted), the text leaves him un-named as Abraham sends him to go search for a bride for his son in Gen 24:2 and onward. So? In John 14, 15, and 16 the Comforter is spoken of as coming in Jesus' name, and not "speaking of himself" (16:13). It is not until the bride is brought to the son that we see Isaac reappear in the story, in Gen 25. So in Genesis, and today with the church, the un-named servant goes out into the world to find and prepare a bride, while the Son waits with the Father. I think that's pretty neat.

One other point that is brought out in Job is the value of compassion and listening. It's easy to say to a faceless screen that "God is sovereign" (which is absolutely true!), but it is of no comfort to the person enduring distress. Job's three friends, even if their shallow reap-what-you-sow message were completely valid, delivered their message in a way that completely ignored Job's situation and his pleas. Their theology was correct (we do reap what we sow), but incomplete (God is merciful). That in itself is a convicting insight- that we can be correct but if lacking as complete a picture as we should, God is displeased with us. Study to show yourselves approved, indeed.

Yes, the witnesses are real men.

The "two" I referred to was the "olive tree and candlestick(sic)".

Their light (witness) comes from an in-exhaustible source (the tree which is the source of the oil). Sort of like a fighter jet tethered to a fuel tanker...

I like the parallel with Joshua, where he sends in two "spies" into Jericho. They accomplish nothing that would further Joshua's (or the Lord's) battle plan, but instead accomplish the salvation of Rahab. Instead of two spies, maybe it's more appropriate to call them two witnesses?

There are several other Joshua/Revelation parallels:

- there is silence in heaven before the seventh trumpet, just as they marched silently around Jericho until blowing their trumpets on the seventh day.

- ten heads and seven horns in Revelation, versus Canaan with ten kings, three already conquered and seven remaining in the other side of the Jordan.

- the land being dispossessed of its usurpers. Joshua conquering the seven kings in Canaan, Jesus conquering Satan's forces that occupy the earth.

- victories accomplished with signs in the sky, sun and moon.

- kings of the earth saying "rocks, fall on us." or hiding in caves.

Olive trees and light bearers...

(Candlestick is misleading)

Refers to the tabernacle, and the seven branched lamp-stand. It was fed by pure olive oil. Oil is a frequent idiom for the Holy Spirit.

These two, idiomatically, are two lamp stands/light bearers, tapped directly into the source. The Spirit gives them an in-exhaustible supply of His oil, for as long as it suits God's plan.

At Pentecost, (or John 20, when Christ breathed on them) the Spirit came upon the Church. After the rapture, the Spirit (restrainer of 2 Thes 2:7) no longer indwells "those that dwell on the earth". The Spirit, in the OT pattern, becomes conditional and temporary (David: "take not thy Holy Spirit from me..."). We, today, can not validly pray that prayer. These two witnesses, in contrast to the earth-dwellers, DO have a permanent in dwelling of the HS.

Hmm. I'm aware of various gap theories that meddle with the six day account, usually trying to blend evolution and creation. In our zeal to defend creation, many Christians paint "science" with too broad a brush, lumping it all together under the evil-lution category. I'd hate to see Christians make the flat earth mistake with this subject too.

I know of no scripture that refutes a gap before the six days, nor any doctrine that it would contradict. If light began with Gen 1:3, I don't think we can scientifically or theologically prove that time (as we understand it) existed previously!

Your statement about the Hebrew construction is the first I've heard. My Hebrew and Greek skills are limited to use of the various interlinnears which often flesh-out word usage and meanings, but aren't useful against "construction" arguments.

Regardless, there has to be a gap between John 1:1 (Christ pre existing) and Gen 1:2 where the earth, before the six days, is already created and existing.

I realize I'm a noob here, and you all may have been through this once or twice already, but I thought the thread was appropriate to respond to.

The "Big Bang" is not the Christian's enemy, the way evolution is. The two ideas relate to different events. God created our universe from nothing, and the evidence for the Big Bang is just the fingerprints of that process.

Between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2 is an unknown time interval, during which the angels that rebelled fell with Lucifer. In Eze 28:13 he is in Eden in a glorious state, yet in pre-fall Genesis he is already fallen.

I take this to mean that there was a prior "Eden".

Gen 1:2 is usually rendered "And the earth was without form and void....", but many think "became" is better than "was".

And Isa 45:18 uses the same word as Gen 1:2's "without form" when he says of the Lord creating the world: "Who did not create it in vain" (vain, same word as without form).

So the world was not created without form, but after Lucifer's fall it became without form.

And then beginning with Gen 1:3 God did his six-day work of creation.