Osterloh

GoldenEagle ... The baptism with the Holy Spirit is an anointing given by Jesus to certain Christians. And it has absolutely nothing to do with being born-again, except being born-again it a prerequisite to receiving this baptism. However, many do receive both simultaneously. Tongues are the initial evidence (to others there) that the person has indeed received. But, beyond that, tongues is merely 1 of the 9 spiritual power gifts listed in 1 Cor 12. No one has all 9, but I sat under a pastor and his wife (for 5 years) who between them had all 9. As far as Scripture goes, this is like several other spiritual Truths, which are "somewhat hidden" in Scripture (for various reasons). However, I can lay out this baptism for you scripturally, if you wish.

Surely, there are 4 different Christian baptisms in the NT. Some say more than 4 ... but I see only 3 major ones and 1 intermediate one.

Ephesians 4:11-13 ... all of those in the NT 5-fold ministry had the Spirit baptism (with initial confirmation of tongues). Romans 12:3-8 ... tongues is but 1 of the 9 spiritual power gifts listed in 1 Cor 12 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 ... tongues is but 1 of the 9 spiritual power gifts 1 Corinthians 12:27-31... tongues is but 1 of the 9 spiritual power gifts listed in 1 Cor 12 Hope this helps!

Andy, that's not possible ... people on Christians forums don't ever miss anything! What you're missing is post #2.

Not much response re: who's a FAITHFUL believer and who's not. Does anyone agree with my assessment of Ephesians 1:1?

Yes, at the moment of being born-again, the Christian receives everything imaginable (Righteousness, etc. Do I have to list them all?). Now, please note that Paul was writing ONLY to the saints in Ephesus who are "FAITHFUL". That is not talking to everyone, even back then! He certainly is NOT writing to every church-pew sitter today!

I apologize for the delay! Those are what I call the 9 spiritual gifts listed in 1 Cor 12. IMO, pretty much everyone in the NT churches had the baptism with the Holy Spirit. And all of the leaders definitely had it. Smith Wigglesworth said, "If you don't have the baptism with the Holy Spirit, you are living in a weak and impoverished condition." And this is indeed the condition of most churches today! Also IMO, no one receives any of the 9 spiritual power gifts (to any appreciable extent) without having the baptism with the Holy Spirit first. Note: the gift of faith in 1 Cor 12 has absolutely nothing to do with Eph 2:8-9, etc.

I am presenting my views and my questions, and I am inviting people to submit their opinions for discussion. I am part of the ministry (evangelist) ... part of the 5-fold ministry (Eph 4:11). Such people are called into this by the Lord Himself. And I am NOT talking about all of those who have been men-appointed-and-called throughout the centuries. I'll refrain from explaining what the prerequisite is for being called into the 5-fold ministry. Are you saying that you understand what I am saying or are do you not understand? I can't tell by you explaining who you are. Yes, I understood what you were saying, and I answered that I am part of the Ministry. Perhaps the title of the thread should have been, Does Scripture threaten loss of salvation to pre-tribulationists!

My dear brother, I did not include the other SIN LISTS in the OP because I was showing some mercy ... they only talk about not inheriting the kingdom, not getting into the New Jerusalem, etc. Deceived Christians think these only apply to unbelievers! Wouldn't common sense tell them that this wouldn't be fair in the least. Someone somewhere said: Judgement begins at the house of God. Gal 5:19-21 • “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Eph 5:3-6 • “But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.” Col 3:5-6 • “Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience” Rev 21:7-8 • “He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” 1 John 3:15 • “… you know that NO murderer has eternal life abiding in him” Rev 22:14-15 • “Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.” Not one of those passages has anything to do with losing salvation. Do you believe entering the kingdom means the same as entering heaven?

We have some idea how God's prophets were treated in the OT.

My dear brother, I did not include the other SIN LISTS in the OP because I was showing some mercy ... they only talk about not inheriting the kingdom, not getting into the New Jerusalem, etc. Deceived Christians think these only apply to unbelievers! Wouldn't common sense tell them that this wouldn't be fair in the least. Someone somewhere said: Judgement begins at the house of God. Gal 5:19-21 • “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Eph 5:3-6 • “But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.” Col 3:5-6 • “Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience” Rev 21:7-8 • “He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” 1 John 3:15 • “… you know that NO murderer has eternal life abiding in him” Rev 22:14-15 • “Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.”

The Book of Hebrews was written to Jews who had become Christians. This parallels Romans Chapter 6 where Paul very tactfully warns 3 times in 8 verses: SIN RESULTS IN ETERNAL DEATH. Heb 10:26-31 • “For if we keep on sinning willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, … For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay”, says the Lord. … It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” Heb 10:36-39 • “For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: ‘For yet a little while, and He who is coming will come and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith; but if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.’ But we are not of those who draw back to perdition …” Please notice Paul's writing style ... he is always edifying, building up, encouraging, exhorting! So he knows the future actions of these Christians? No, but he sure can hope, can't he. And while he's hoping, he sure can hint that those who draw back will be going to hell. Heb 12:14-17 • “Pursue … holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance …”

Thanks, I'm feelin' a tad bit better now! ... Life's worth livin' again!

Thanks, I'm feelin' a tad bit better now!

Upon becoming a BAC, Jesus' righteousness was imputed to us! Then lo and behold, we are required to maintain that righteousness! Let’s start here … with the definition of WHO is righteous ... “… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous” (1 John 3:7) And note … only BACs are capable of being righteous: “… you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” (1 John 2:29) And note ... the reverse of the above verse is not true. “… whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” (Acts 10:35) We are to choose to be “(slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness?” (Romans 6:16) “… so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.” (Romans 6:19) “... let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness” (Revelation 22:11) “... the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God” (Romans 14:17-18) These requirements are only re: the word "righteousness". There are many other things involved to be considered righteous in God's eyes! And they're all explained in the NT, which the churches choose to ignore ... TOO UNPOPULAR!

I am entering into an open discussion. Please present YOUR views as to WHY there are dozens of warnings written to churches about: SIN RESULTS IN ETERNAL DEATH. Now, to be fair, these verses are strictly talking about habitual unrepented-of sin! I.E. a lifestyle of good olde fashioned old-man type sinning! And this has been done historically by some who erroneously have been indoctrinated into OSAS! I.E. that is why OSAS is from the pits of hell. Sin results in "death" which Jesus took our place. When we are saved, we accept what he has done for us and our sin is forgiven. Okay, great, this is what is taught in Kindergarden. But, the little kiddos who are guzzling milk are not reading Scripture. I have progressed past that stage ... I indulge in the occasional beer.

I am entering into an open discussion. Please present YOUR views as to WHY there are dozens of warnings written to churches about: SIN RESULTS IN ETERNAL DEATH. Now, to be fair, these verses are strictly talking about habitual unrepented-of sin! I.E. a lifestyle of good olde fashioned old-man type sinning! And this has been done historically by some who erroneously have been indoctrinated into OSAS! I.E. that is why OSAS is from the pits of hell.

so tell me please...... do you or anyone else really believe that a born again Christian would have a lifestyle of any of these things... Really??? I suggest that you speak privately to a few pastors about this. But, IMO, there are few who do not come around.

Our sin is washed away when we first repent...fully and totally. Thanks, we all truly appreciate you ... for thou art a great fountain of spiritual knowledge and understanding also!

I am presenting my views and my questions, and I am inviting people to submit their opinions for discussion. I am part of the ministry (evangelist) ... part of the 5-fold ministry (Eph 4:11). Such people are called into this by the Lord Himself. And I am NOT talking about all of those who have been men-appointed-and-called throughout the centuries. I'll refrain from explaining what the prerequisite is for being called into the 5-fold ministry.

I say this is ludicrous! ... Are all BACs involved in the blue? E.G. re: the knowing (approving) ... sin cuts off fellowship! I say you're going to have to explain ... WHY are there are literally dozens of warnings about SIN RESULTS IN ETERNAL DEATH? Simply tell us WHY, okay? In case you were not aware, regular sincere confession and repentance washes them all away! I began this crusade hesitatingly months ago ... after seeing all of these many warnings in Scripture.

You make a valid point about Jesus’ sermon on the mount being before the gospel was well-known. I included it to show how serious sin is to God. And there are multitudes of verses threatening loss of eternal life to ANYONE who is involved in habitual unrepented-of sin! … Some are in the OP list. Here’s one … “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Cor 6:9-10) This applies to everyone on the planet, and I can show from Scripture that entering the kingdom of God/heaven is equivalent to go to heaven. Now, will these people come around later? … Heb 10:26+ says there is a cut-off point. So really, that's what all of the dozens of warnings are all about, i.e. OSAS is from the pits of hell. IMO, you’ve got a big problem with righteousness! Does one need to be righteous in God’s eyes to enter heaven? Check the end of Matt 25, and then verses such as: “… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous” (1 John 3:7) It’s the old story: is God playing games with us? … I.E. is the reverse of the above true? If the BAC is not practicing his imputed righteousness, this proves that he is no longer righteous! We are to choose to be “(slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness” (Romans 6:16) “… so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.” (Romans 6:19) So, everything is conditional: God's INITIAL grace, righteousness, salvation, etc. may be carelessly rejected and thrown away!

Thanks, but please ... you choose any passage and explain why it should NOT be in the list. Just one, and we'll see how it goes, okay? It will be a pleasure to investigate this topic with those who are unemotional about it, obviously.

Judging is different than warning. Why for decades have evangelists been invited to speak to churches ... to warn the sheep about what the pastors fear to say, lest he lose many of his sheep? Ditto for Paul writing to the Roman churches, which were not his. (He desired to be welcomed to come and visit and give more teachings). In Romans 6, he was extremely tactfully warning them that ... If they continued to be slaves to sin, they would receive eternal death. He mentioned 3 times in 8 verses that sin results in eternal death! Oh, yes!

Yes, of course, you are safe and secure ... I have NO doubts about it. However, alas, you have made the usual female error, which I have noticed in all Christian forums! Dis thread is NOT about YOU ... 'tis about other people ... Is it possible for THEM to lose THEIR salvation? Hello!