Last Daze
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Posts posted by Last Daze
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Why can't there be a dual fulfillment? A spiritual and a natural?
The "why" of your question was answered by the literal verses from the NT, that were posted immediately before your question. Even included the same emphasis:
Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world.....
Does anything seem ambiguous about that plain literal language from literal verses?
Should folks seek to nullify that literal language that is not open to interpretation, with an interpretation of the figurative language of a prophetic vision that is widely open to interpretation, that is specifically contradicted by the truth of those literal verses?
I still don't see anything there that precludes a dual fulfillment.
The kingdom of God cometh not with observation - true...the spiritual one.
the kingdom of God is within you. - true...the spiritual one.
My kingdom is not of this world..... - true for both. "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world." 1 John 2:16
None of the above mentioned say anything about precluding a natural kingdom. Do you have any verses that say something to the effect that henceforth there shall never be a natural kingdom? Because there is plenty to suggest that there will be. Just because Christ's emphasis in those verses speaks to the spiritual kingdom does not mean that the future natural kingdom is invalid.
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I think we have the blood of the Lamb on our doorpost and the effects of the plagues will pass over us. God knows how to rescue us and keep us.
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Why can't there be a dual fulfillment? A spiritual and a natural?
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I can't find anywhere that the toes are called kings. As you said, the ten kings are in power for an hour with the beast (fallen angel, not the false prophet). After that hour, the false prophet tears three of the ten out by the roots. There is not an alliance between the false prophet and the 10 kings that I can find.
Why would Daniel refer to the toes as "those kings" whenever they're never previously identified as such? He's talking about Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and the feet. There's more to those kingdoms than what meets the eye. He's talking about those kings that he's just mentioned starting with the head of gold.
Hmm .. much to say on your reply, but I will just comment on this for now ..
What does God say about this kingdom He is going to set up?
Daniel 2:
He said concerning this kingdom to be set up.. "Which shall NEVER BE DESTROYED"
Ill just fast track my point to Rome ok?
Israel ceased to exist as a nation in 70ad.
Does that sound like the kingdom "which shall never be destroyed" to you?
History tells us a resounding NO .. because 70ad can not be argued .. and since 70ad can not be brushed aside .. where Israel was destroyed as a nation for over 2000 years ..
then obviously the kings of Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece & Rome can not & are definitely not "these kings" being spoken of where God sets up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed because they are already dead & the kingdom of Israel was indeed destroyed.
So you see, by default, the only kings which "these kings" can be, are the last generation kings who join with the very human false prophet.
Remember the Apostles asking Christ when the kingdom would be restored to Israel?
Look at his:
Matthew 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Restoration begins here.
This is that kingdom to be set up.
According to Daniel 12, there are certain fallen angels that bring these kingdoms into a place of dominion. They are referred to as "princes" such as "the prince of Persia" and "the prince of Greece". Those fallen fallen angels, who are depicted as beasts in Daniel 7, will be active in the last days as illustrated by the beast with 7 heads and ten horns. Look at the symbolism of that fallen angel and compare it to the beasts of Daniel 7. While the historic kingdoms of Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome no longer exist as dominating kingdoms, the princes that "fathered" them do exist, and it is their end times handiwork that will be destroyed, along with any traces of their previous efforts.
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Really?!? Condescending sarcasm? Hmmm.It's neither. Just a logical deduction (with some embellishment
) based on your statement of the events of Revelation 4 being before the crucifixion..which is Preposterous.Where exactly is Jesus in the beginning of the throne room scene of Revelation 4-5? I can tell you where He isn't. He isn't in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth.Where is HE Then?
No, I'm not necessarily implying that Revelation 4 is before the crucifixion, but it is probably before His resurrection thoughThat's Baloney.
(Revelation 1:10-11) "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, {11} Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."
When were these Churches Established? Well AFTER the Resurrection. Revelation starts with The Seven Churches.
where is He?Well, HE'S Here in Rev 1....
(Revelation 1:13-16) "And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. {14} His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; {15} And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. {16} And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength."
The whole purpose of Rev 4-5, as I see it, is to show that "after these things"After what things?.... After the things that John was just shown; The Seven Churches.
Its the reason why the 24 elders sang a new song. Why is it new? Because its about Christ's redemption. The old song that the 24 elders sang wasn't.Post the Old Song......?
The first scene is before Christ's resurrection. The second is after.Not even close. It doesn't even pass Basic Reasoning....
The Book of Revelation is the "Unveiling". Revelation = "Unveiling".
Wasn't Christ's: Birth, Life, Death, and Resurrection already "Unveiled"; Ergo, Revealed?? Why would the already "Revealed" be the Base of a Book concerned with "Unveiling"??
Where exactly was Jesus after His death and before His resurrection?It appears HE went to Tartarus to "Preach" to the bad guys that were/are chained since the Days of Noah. Special Note: That word "Preached" is not like preaching the Gospel... it denotes Heralding in, as in..... Heralding in VICTORY.
(1 Peter 3:18-20) "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: {19} By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; {20} Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
(2 Peter 2:4-5) "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; {5} And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;"
hell (in this passage) = Tartarus or the Abyss.
Fred Astaire would be proud. You danced all around this question:
Where exactly is Jesus in the beginning of the throne room scene of Revelation 4-5? I can tell you where He isn't. He isn't in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth.
Where he actually is is irrelevant. The point is that the elders are there and He is not. Period.
The intention of Revelation 4-5 is to show that Jesus is the only one worthy to open the scroll. A "before and after" scene is used to illustrate that point. Not everything from Rev 4:1 on is strictly in the future, as in the case of Rev 12, when a little background info is used.
Post the Old Song......?
“Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.” Revelation 4:11
Before you dismiss that on a technicality, that's how they sing...they say things: And they sang a new song, saying... Revelation 5:9
I won't reply to anymore of your posts. It seems that your approach is more the "letter of the law" and I prefer "the spirit of the law", the intention. I don't think that dismissing what someone says on technicalities works toward the goal that I desire from these forum discussions. Trying to understand what someone means does.
Really?!? Condescending sarcasm? Hmmm.It's neither. Just a logical deduction (with some embellishment
) based on your statement of the events of Revelation 4 being before the crucifixion..which is Preposterous.No....its both, regardless of what you call it, and another reason this will be my last reply to you. Its not a style of communication that I find very beneficial. In fact, it can cause strife if taken personally. I don't really recommend it.
Be strong in the Lord, brother, and we'll compare notes after the fact, if we even care at that point. But, I will buy you a Coke if pre-trib is correct.
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I can't find anywhere that the toes are called kings. As you said, the ten kings are in power for an hour with the beast (fallen angel, not the false prophet). After that hour, the false prophet tears three of the ten out by the roots. There is not an alliance between the false prophet and the 10 kings that I can find.
Why would Daniel refer to the toes as "those kings" whenever they're never previously identified as such? He's talking about Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and the feet. There's more to those kingdoms than what meets the eye. He's talking about those kings that he's just mentioned starting with the head of gold.
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Are you "Implying" that the "Time Frame"/events being discussed in Revelation 4 is before Christ was crucified?
What is Rev 1,2,3...... Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus??
(Revelation 4:1) "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."
Showing John things...Hereafter, is After the Seven Churches. When were the 7 Churches established? And WHO was giving the judgments regarding the 7 Churches?
Are you "Implying" that the "Time Frame"/events being discussed in Revelation 4 is before Christ was crucified?
What is Rev 1,2,3...... Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus??
Really?!? Condescending sarcasm? Hmmm. Anyway......
Where exactly is Jesus in the beginning of the throne room scene of Revelation 4-5? I can tell you where He isn't. He isn't in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth.
No, I'm not necessarily implying that Revelation 4 is before the crucifixion, but it is probably before His resurrection though, otherwise, where is He?
The whole purpose of Rev 4-5, as I see it, is to show that "after these things" comes the opening of the scroll with seven seals. This is done using two different scenes of the throne room. These two scenes of Rev 4 and 5 are used to show that only Jesus, who has been given all authority on heaven and on earth, was worthy to open the scroll. Before that, no one was found worthy. Its the reason why the 24 elders sang a new song. Why is it new? Because its about Christ's redemption. The old song that the 24 elders sang wasn't. The first scene is before Christ's resurrection. The second is after.
Where exactly was Jesus after His death and before His resurrection? Or maybe it was before His crucifixion. I don't know. But clearly, Jesus is not there and the 24 elders are. The 24 elders can not represent the church.
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Look at it like this...
The Lord returned in the days (lifetimes) of those kings who joined in alliance with the false prophet, and the Lord destroyed them with the sword of His mouth.
And in those days the Lord set up a kingdom and took direct control over planet earth.
That's all it's saying.
Don't forget, the Lord will establish His rule in ONE DAY.
And these kings will still be alive (those days) to see the Lord coming in the clouds for themselves.
In those days..
Still future.
Near future.
I'm guessing that you're referencing this from Daniel:
You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever. Daniel 2:34-35,44
Why do you think that "those kings" is a reference to those who joined in alliance with the false prophet? Wouldn't "those" be a reference to something previously mentioned as kings in the prophecy?
I agree that the false prophet (and the unseen fallen angels) will cause the kings of the earth to gather, and that the Lord will destroy them and set up His kingdom:
And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty. Revelation 16:13-14
And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh. Revelation 19:19-21
But I don't think that Daniel 2's "those kings" is a reference to those who joined in alliance with the false prophet. It might seem like a trivial distinction to make but there is more to the kingdoms of Daniel 2 than what meets the eye.
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Everybody is/will be subject either to the first resurrection or the second death.
I think that's pretty straightforward. Resurrection order:
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 ("cometh" greyed out for clarity)
When is the resurrection at Christ's coming?
Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” John 11:24
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44
When is the last day?
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
This is the first resurrection, on the last day, at the last trumpet, at Christ's second coming. No tap dancing required.
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The 3.5 year war is against the saints, us believers. This period of persecution leading up to the second coming is clearly recorded in Rev 13, described as 42 months of the beast's control and with this, war against "God’s holy people". Also in Rev 12, we have the protection of Israel (the woman), and the persecution of "her offspring" for 3.5 years. This 3.5 year period of persecution precedes the second coming.
I agree that the false prophet wages war against the saints (elect, believers, church) for 42 months. One thing that I've recently come to realize is that the great tribulation is only a subset of that period of time. Let me explain.
The great tribulation starts just after the abomination of desolation comes about. Jesus said that those days are cut short.
Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Matthew 24:22
How are those days cut short? With the opening of the sixth seal.
“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn..." Matthew 24:29-30a
This corresponds to the sixth seal:
I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Revelation 6:12-17
The sixth seal marks the end of the great tribulation. The false prophet and those who worship him now have to deal with the wrath of the Lamb. This is not to say that believers are out of the woods but rather that the persecution against them is greatly reduced. The rest of the world is preoccupied with dealing with God's wrath as the seventh seal brings forth the seven trumpets / bowls. Then at the seventh (last) trumpet the resurrection / rapture event takes place, on the last day:
and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Matthew 24:30b-31
Notice how in Matthew 24 that at first people see the sign of the Son of Man. This corresponds to the sixth seal. Then people actually see the Son of Man (not the sign of) which is the seventh trumpet. There is a gap in the middle of Matthew 24:30 where the wrath of God is being poured out. At least that's what makes the most sense to me at this point.
When Jesus describes the great tribulation in Matthew 24, it starts with the abomination, and ends with the second coming and the gathering of the elect. I do not see how its possible for this period to be cut short when it is repeatedly predicted to be 3.5 years long. The original Greek word means: shorten, abridge, curtail. The translators seem to like to use the word shorten, but what about the word "curtail"? ie kept short, not cut short.
That period is kept short to 3.5 years. No longer. I see the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets and the 7 bowls as 3 separate visions leading up to the second coming. The 6th seal is the second coming, the 7th trumpet is the second coming, and the 7th bowl is the second coming. Only the judgment on the nations and the millenium follow the second coming, there is no "greatly reduced" persecution at this stage. The world as we know it has ended.
So there is simply 3.5 years of persecution, then the second coming.
Rev 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
Rev 13 5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them
Daniel 7:25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time
I probably didn't explain what I meant very well but I think you misunderstood what I was getting at.
Don't you think the effects of the plagues on the false prophet and his kingdom are going to dampen the intensity of the persecution of the saints? Have you read the trumpets and bowls lately? Pretty stifling stuff there.
I'm not saying that the 3.5 years are cut short, just the days of great tribulation. I think where we differ is the 6th seal. I see it as the precursor to God's wrath, where people see the sign of the Son of Man, not the Son of Man Himself, and they fear for the wrath to come.
I agree that the seventh (last) trumpet and the seventh bowl are the second coming, where people actually see the Son of Man (not the sign of). This distinction is in Matthew 24:30 I'm curious as to why you think the 6th seal is the second coming?
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The per-tribers pay no mind to adding to scripture, they add a pre trib coming of the Lord, and a pre-trib resurrection of the dead in Christ. Neither of those ideas can be found in the Book.
Again, I think it comes down to motive. We're all in the process of learning. I'd venture to say that none of us has everything right.
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I would be in error if I didn't warn you love concerning "adding to" or "taking away" from The WORD of GOD.Why do people often use this when discussing different interpretations of prophecy? Has anyone ever gotten it right the first time? Is anyone absolutely sure that they're "spot on" with all of it now? What exactly constitutes "adding to" or "taking away" and what was the purpose of the warning? Based on the severity of the consequences I'd have to say that it applies to those who willfully manipulate prophecy to some self-serving end, and not to those who are trying to reason through it and understand it. This warning, in my opinion, should only be used when someone is blatantly embellishing with no regard for the truth. It all comes down to motive. As I see it.
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Why do people often use this when discussing different interpretations of prophecy?This is a Strawman (Fallacy) and an Abstract Equivocation (Fallacy).
"Different Interpretations" and..... the Outright Changing the Meaning of an Unequivocally Clear Passage from Scripture are two Entirely Different Animals.
ps. I can't comment on why "People" often do anything. I can only speak for myself.
What exactly constitutes "adding to" or "taking away" and what was the purpose of the warning?"Taking Away": "The Church is not the Wife/Bride of Christ". In the Face of....
(Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."
"Adding To": "The Earth is Billions of Years Old". In the Face of....
(Exodus 20:11) "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."
what was the purpose of the warning? Based on the severity of the consequences...You just answered your own question.
Based on the severity of the consequences I'd have to say that it applies to those who willfully manipulate prophecy100% agree. Only GOD knows the heart.
This warning, in my opinion, should only be used when someone is blatantly embellishing with no regard for the truth.Should I warn you after you fall off the Cliff or warn you before concerning the Integrity of the rocks close to the edge?
It all comes down to motiveHence the Warning and not the Charge. I can't read minds or judge the intent of the heart.
This is a Strawman (Fallacy) and an Abstract Equivocation (Fallacy).
Please don't feel the need to continually repeat these platitudes. Its a much better discussion when you try to discern the intent of what was written instead of picking it apart technically.
Should I warn you after you fall off the Cliff or warn you before concerning the Integrity of the rocks close to the edge?
You should warn those whose behavior justifies it, not just those with whom you disagree. Since only GOD knows the heart, I'm assuming that you've issued out hundreds of these warnings to those that you find in err, just to be safe. I haven't seen anything in Marilyn's posts that would lead me to believe that her understandings come from a malicious intent. Have you?
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I would be in error if I didn't warn you love concerning "adding to" or "taking away" from The WORD of GOD.Why do people often use this when discussing different interpretations of prophecy? Has anyone ever gotten it right the first time? Is anyone absolutely sure that they're "spot on" with all of it now? What exactly constitutes "adding to" or "taking away" and what was the purpose of the warning? Based on the severity of the consequences I'd have to say that it applies to those who willfully manipulate prophecy to some self-serving end, and not to those who are trying to reason through it and understand it. This warning, in my opinion, should only be used when someone is blatantly embellishing with no regard for the truth. It all comes down to motive. As I see it.
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The 3.5 year war is against the saints, us believers. This period of persecution leading up to the second coming is clearly recorded in Rev 13, described as 42 months of the beast's control and with this, war against "God’s holy people". Also in Rev 12, we have the protection of Israel (the woman), and the persecution of "her offspring" for 3.5 years. This 3.5 year period of persecution precedes the second coming.
I agree that the false prophet wages war against the saints (elect, believers, church) for 42 months. One thing that I've recently come to realize is that the great tribulation is only a subset of that period of time. Let me explain.
The great tribulation starts just after the abomination of desolation comes about. Jesus said that those days are cut short.
Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Matthew 24:22
How are those days cut short? With the opening of the sixth seal.
“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn..." Matthew 24:29-30a
This corresponds to the sixth seal:
I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Revelation 6:12-17
The sixth seal marks the end of the great tribulation. The false prophet and those who worship him now have to deal with the wrath of the Lamb. This is not to say that believers are out of the woods but rather that the persecution against them is greatly reduced. The rest of the world is preoccupied with dealing with God's wrath as the seventh seal brings forth the seven trumpets / bowls. Then at the seventh (last) trumpet the resurrection / rapture event takes place, on the last day:
and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Matthew 24:30b-31
Notice how in Matthew 24 that at first people see the sign of the Son of Man. This corresponds to the sixth seal. Then people actually see the Son of Man (not the sign of) which is the seventh trumpet. There is a gap in the middle of Matthew 24:30 where the wrath of God is being poured out. At least that's what makes the most sense to me at this point.
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Have you ever played chess? Well there is a `play,` that goes like this, Move pawn, then knight, then bishop, knight & bishop again, & there you have `check mate,` in a few moves. I did say it might come to this when you wanted to `slam dunk `me. So we`ll see -
Sounds like an attack on the King's Bishop pawn...something like:
1. e4 b6
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. Bc4 Bb7
4. Ng5 h6
5. Bxf7++
Did you know that the fastest possible checkmate is:
1. f3 e6
2. g4 Qh4++
Of course, both are very unlikely.
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Here's one.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
The last day would have to be the last day of something.
The "last day" would be the last day we see this world, as we know it, ..Babylon, governed by Satan and his faithful children.
Not the first day of the tribulation, or middle of it, but the last day. The day Babylon gets destroyed in one hour, at the coming, the seventh trump/vial.
The last day, when Babylon is no more.
Nice connection Sister!
The last day of Babylon...starts when the last trumpet sounds and is completed when the last vial is poured out, on the last day. Makes perfect sense.
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
When does this happen? At the last day.
When I came to this forum I was of the 6th seal rapture opinion, pre-wrath as some call it. After reading posts and discussing the topic, I'm joining the post-trib camp. It just makes more sense. Its important to remain teachable while engaging in discussions, which, isn't always easy because of all of the noisy gongs and clanging symbols you have to filter through. But the Holy Spirit will lead you into the truth and reveal the things to come. That's what He does.
Started off pre-trib, changed to pre-wrath, now post-trib. Its what makes the most sense to me, at this point...still questioning...still learning.
Thank you Last Daze
Sometimes the answer is just so simple. In a verse here, backed by a verse there, and another verse saying the same thing and so on.
I find that the weeds like to choke the truth, and the truth gets missed, not even given consideration or a mention, because maybe it's too simple.
Psalms 119:130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
True, I find that as a general rule, the less "tap dancing", the better.
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Are you implying that this is speaking to the Church??....
(Revelation 12:17) "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
"Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. Galatians 3:16
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." John 14:15
"He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him." John 14:21
"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love." John 15:10
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The purpose of the "Great Tribulation" is to push the Jews to The Wall and for them to Corporately Petition HIM to return....and that they will!!
Has nothing whatsoever to do with HIS Bride...."The Church". They already know HE is......THE KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Revelation 12:13-17
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I and others have expressed some thoughts on it here:
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What is the Purpose of the "Great Tribulation"?
If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God is testing you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Deuteronomy 13:1-3
He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. Daniel 12:9-10
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I don't understand how the question of this thread can go on for so long and not be reconciled.
I was wondering the same thing about the world!
Here's one.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
The last day would have to be the last day of something.
The "last day" would be the last day we see this world, as we know it, ..Babylon, governed by Satan and his faithful children.
Not the first day of the tribulation, or middle of it, but the last day. The day Babylon gets destroyed in one hour, at the coming, the seventh trump/vial.
The last day, when Babylon is no more.
Nice connection Sister!
The last day of Babylon...starts when the last trumpet sounds and is completed when the last vial is poured out, on the last day. Makes perfect sense.
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
When does this happen? At the last day.
When I came to this forum I was of the 6th seal rapture opinion, pre-wrath as some call it. After reading posts and discussing the topic, I'm joining the post-trib camp. It just makes more sense. Its important to remain teachable while engaging in discussions, which, isn't always easy because of all of the noisy gongs and clanging symbols you have to filter through. But the Holy Spirit will lead you into the truth and reveal the things to come. That's what He does.
Started off pre-trib, changed to pre-wrath, now post-trib. Its what makes the most sense to me, at this point...still questioning...still learning.
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Why, oh why do I let myself get sucked into meaningless rapture debates, especially with those of an arrogant disposition?!?!?
The best rebuttal to the pre-trib fallacy is in the passing of time. I just hope that those who believe it don't do so to the exclusion of plan B.
Hope for the best and plan for the worst. It's simply the most prudent thing to do. Wouldn't you agree Enoch2021? Just be ready.
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It would be less frustrating for folks if they did their homework and paid closer attention to detail; instead of, contriving then labeling someones "disposition"....which is a diversion away from the Facts of the Matter.
Or review all the evidence-----> then Hypothesize. Instead of Hypothesize, then-----> contort the evidence to fit "a priori" adherence's.
The best rebuttal to the pre-trib fallacy is in the passing of time.What "Fallacy" is that Specifically?
The passing of time is the Best Argument? It's not an argument, it's a conceptual relationship between 2 objects.
Hope for the best and plan for the worst. It's simply the most prudent thing to do. Wouldn't you agree Enoch2021? Just be ready.I disagree....
(2 Peter 1:19) "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:"
(1 Thessalonians 5:21) "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."
(2 Timothy 2:15) "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Have a great life Enoch2021.
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If you are suggesting that the 24 elders represent the raptured church in heaven, then I respectfully disagree. Simply because nothing in the text implies it. Instead, that they are called elders suggests they are the spirits of prominent servants of God - perhaps Noah, Moses, Elijah, etc.. - from the past. Maybe including some of the apostles, all of whom except John had been martyred by then. But it would be somewhat anachronistic for the raptured end time church to be speaking to its first century apostle, e.g. in 5:5.
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If you are suggesting that the 24 elders represent the raptured church in heaven, then I respectfully disagree. Simply because nothing in the text implies it.You disagree because nothing in the text "implies" it? How about if it "overtly" says it....
The Identity of the 24 Elders:
The 24 Elders are Representatives of The Church. And if that's the Case (and it is
as I will show below ), then The Rapture is well before The Great Tribulation because they are in Heaven when John Arrives in Chapter 4.Lets Identify these 24 Elders, First:
- Identified as the Redeemed (Rev 5: 9,10)
- only three are Identified in all of Scripture as Kings and Priests (Melchizedek, Jesus, and the Redeemed......US
)- They worship the Lamb before he receives the Scroll; in fact, they are already in Heaven when John arrives.
Bear in mind, The Royal Line (Judah) and The Priesthood (Levites) were to be kept separate as noted throughout the OT. The Church appears to have no such restriction....
A Closer Look:
Peter says: (1 Peter 2:9) "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"
Royal Priesthood: Kings and Priests
John in Revelation says: (Revelation 1:5-6) "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, {6} And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."
John is including himself in this group of Kings and Priests with "us".
Who else is John including in the "us"?? The ones that are washed from our sins in HIS Blood....."The Church" (Born Again Christians).
Hmmm, any more clues?
(Revelation 5:8-10) "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. {9} And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."
The 24 Elders Sang a New Song: Song of The Redeemed.
Hast Redeemed "us"....How? By The Blood. From where? Out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation = "The Church"
Has made "us" what?: Kings and Priests.
The 24 Elders are Kings and Priests and have been redeemed by the blood out of every kindred, tongue, kindred, and nation. Who is that describing......"Born Again Christians/"The Church".
Who the 24 Elders Can't Be, (Characteristics):
Tribulation Saints: 24 Elders:
* Not Crowned *Crowned, casts them on the Glassy Sea (Rev 4:10)
* Palms in Hands *Harps, No Palms
*Saved "out of" Great Tribulation * Kept "out of" Great Tribulation (Rev 3:10)
* Stand Before Thrones * Sit on Thrones (Rev 4:4)
* Serve HIM Night and Day * Reign as Kings and Priests (1 Cor 6:2-3, Rev 5:10)
Tribulation Saints were not recognized by John and he asked who they were (Rev 7:14). Who answered? One of the Elders.
John never asks who the 24 Elders are..... Why should he, he knows who they are
Can't be The Martyrs because they are "under" The Altar and were slain. 24 Elders Sit on Thrones, not "slain".
Can't be Angels....
(Revelation 7:11) "And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,"
All the Angels stood round about the Throne...and who else? The 24 Elders. Clear Distinction.
We are running out of contenders @ Light Speed.
Can't be the 144,000, Obviously.
**Also, if you compare Ezekiel's, Isaiah's, Daniel's vision of the Throne Room of GOD to John's Vision in Revelation, what's the ONLY Difference? Only in John's description do you find the 24 Elders!! "The Church" wasn't born until Pentecost, so the 24 Elders wouldn't be in Ezekiel's/Isaiah's/Daniel's visions.
Are you still of the opinion the text doesn't "Imply" it?
I know I am. The passage that you say identifies them as redeemed does no such thing. Let's look at it:
And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.” Revelation 5:9-10
If they were redeemed, wouldn't they have said something like "You have made us to be a kingdom....etc."? Nothing in that passage suggests that they are of the redeemed.
In fact, if you look back in Revelation 4 you will see that the 24 elders are there along with 4 living creatures, the seven lamps (7 Spirits of God), and He who sits on the throne. The lamb is not there. The 4 creatures and 24 elders worship Him, who sits on the throne.
Go to chapter 5, where its time to open the scroll, and the scene has changed. The lamb has appeared having seven horns and seven eyes (7 Spirits of God). The 4 creatures and 24 elders worship the Lamb singing a new song. Why? Because all authority in heaven and on earth had been given to Jesus. The 24 elders were there before the lamb was slain. They can't represent the raptured church.
In using your "process of elimination" method to determine who the 24 elders are you are assuming that you know every possibility of who they could be. I, for one, sure wouldn't go that far. There is so much in the spirit realm that we are oblivious to. All we know of it is what God has revealed of it. The fact that 24 elders are mentioned in Revelation does not mean that they have to represent some previously know entity or group. I don't know who the 24 elders are but I'm confident they are not representative of the raptured church.
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The passage that you say identifies them as redeemed does no such thing.Huh? I posted and outlined it, right here...
(Revelation 5:8-10) "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. {9} And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."
And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.” Revelation 5:9-10
If they were redeemed, wouldn't they have said something like "You have made us to be a kingdom....etc."? Nothing in that passage suggests that they are of the redeemed.
Ahh, I see the problem. You have a corrupted Westcott and Hort source. In this case the NASB. SEE discussion here:
In the list of corrupted Bibles @ the Bottom, Please add the NASB. Thanks.
In fact, if you look back in Revelation 4 you will see that the 24 elders are there along with 4 living creatures, the seven lamps (7 Spirits of God), and He who sits on the throne. The lamb is not there. The 4 creatures and 24 elders worship Him, who sits on the throne.
Go to chapter 5, where its time to open the scroll, and the scene has changed.
Are you "Implying" that the "Time Frame"/events being discussed in Revelation 4 is before Christ was crucified?
What is Rev 1,2,3...... Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus??
(Revelation 4:1) "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."
Showing John things...Hereafter, is After the Seven Churches. When were the 7 Churches established? And WHO was giving the judgments regarding the 7 Churches?
In using your "process of elimination" method to determine who the 24 elders are you are assuming that you know every possibility of who they could be. I, for one, sure wouldn't go that far. There is so much in the spirit realm that we are oblivious to.This is an Argument from Ignorance (Fallacy) IN TOTO
Why, oh why do I let myself get sucked into meaningless rapture debates, especially with those of an arrogant disposition?!?!?
The best rebuttal to the pre-trib fallacy is in the passing of time. I just hope that those who believe it don't do so to the exclusion of plan B.
Hope for the best and plan for the worst. It's simply the most prudent thing to do. Wouldn't you agree Enoch2021? Just be ready.
-
If you are suggesting that the 24 elders represent the raptured church in heaven, then I respectfully disagree. Simply because nothing in the text implies it. Instead, that they are called elders suggests they are the spirits of prominent servants of God - perhaps Noah, Moses, Elijah, etc.. - from the past. Maybe including some of the apostles, all of whom except John had been martyred by then. But it would be somewhat anachronistic for the raptured end time church to be speaking to its first century apostle, e.g. in 5:5.
===============================================================================================
If you are suggesting that the 24 elders represent the raptured church in heaven, then I respectfully disagree. Simply because nothing in the text implies it.You disagree because nothing in the text "implies" it? How about if it "overtly" says it....
The Identity of the 24 Elders:
The 24 Elders are Representatives of The Church. And if that's the Case (and it is
as I will show below ), then The Rapture is well before The Great Tribulation because they are in Heaven when John Arrives in Chapter 4.Lets Identify these 24 Elders, First:
- Identified as the Redeemed (Rev 5: 9,10)
- only three are Identified in all of Scripture as Kings and Priests (Melchizedek, Jesus, and the Redeemed......US
)- They worship the Lamb before he receives the Scroll; in fact, they are already in Heaven when John arrives.
Bear in mind, The Royal Line (Judah) and The Priesthood (Levites) were to be kept separate as noted throughout the OT. The Church appears to have no such restriction....
A Closer Look:
Peter says: (1 Peter 2:9) "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"
Royal Priesthood: Kings and Priests
John in Revelation says: (Revelation 1:5-6) "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, {6} And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."
John is including himself in this group of Kings and Priests with "us".
Who else is John including in the "us"?? The ones that are washed from our sins in HIS Blood....."The Church" (Born Again Christians).
Hmmm, any more clues?
(Revelation 5:8-10) "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. {9} And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."
The 24 Elders Sang a New Song: Song of The Redeemed.
Hast Redeemed "us"....How? By The Blood. From where? Out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation = "The Church"
Has made "us" what?: Kings and Priests.
The 24 Elders are Kings and Priests and have been redeemed by the blood out of every kindred, tongue, kindred, and nation. Who is that describing......"Born Again Christians/"The Church".
Who the 24 Elders Can't Be, (Characteristics):
Tribulation Saints: 24 Elders:
* Not Crowned *Crowned, casts them on the Glassy Sea (Rev 4:10)
* Palms in Hands *Harps, No Palms
*Saved "out of" Great Tribulation * Kept "out of" Great Tribulation (Rev 3:10)
* Stand Before Thrones * Sit on Thrones (Rev 4:4)
* Serve HIM Night and Day * Reign as Kings and Priests (1 Cor 6:2-3, Rev 5:10)
Tribulation Saints were not recognized by John and he asked who they were (Rev 7:14). Who answered? One of the Elders.
John never asks who the 24 Elders are..... Why should he, he knows who they are
Can't be The Martyrs because they are "under" The Altar and were slain. 24 Elders Sit on Thrones, not "slain".
Can't be Angels....
(Revelation 7:11) "And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,"
All the Angels stood round about the Throne...and who else? The 24 Elders. Clear Distinction.
We are running out of contenders @ Light Speed.
Can't be the 144,000, Obviously.
**Also, if you compare Ezekiel's, Isaiah's, Daniel's vision of the Throne Room of GOD to John's Vision in Revelation, what's the ONLY Difference? Only in John's description do you find the 24 Elders!! "The Church" wasn't born until Pentecost, so the 24 Elders wouldn't be in Ezekiel's/Isaiah's/Daniel's visions.
Are you still of the opinion the text doesn't "Imply" it?
I know I am. The passage that you say identifies them as redeemed does no such thing. Let's look at it:
And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.” Revelation 5:9-10
If they were redeemed, wouldn't they have said something like "You have made us to be a kingdom....etc."? Nothing in that passage suggests that they are of the redeemed.
In fact, if you look back in Revelation 4 you will see that the 24 elders are there along with 4 living creatures, the seven lamps (7 Spirits of God), and He who sits on the throne. The lamb is not there. The 4 creatures and 24 elders worship Him, who sits on the throne.
Go to chapter 5, where its time to open the scroll, and the scene has changed. The lamb has appeared having seven horns and seven eyes (7 Spirits of God). The 4 creatures and 24 elders worship the Lamb singing a new song. Why? Because all authority in heaven and on earth had been given to Jesus. The 24 elders were there before the lamb was slain. They can't represent the raptured church.
In using your "process of elimination" method to determine who the 24 elders are you are assuming that you know every possibility of who they could be. I, for one, sure wouldn't go that far. There is so much in the spirit realm that we are oblivious to. All we know of it is what God has revealed of it. The fact that 24 elders are mentioned in Revelation does not mean that they have to represent some previously know entity or group. I don't know who the 24 elders are but I'm confident they are not representative of the raptured church.
) based on your statement of the events of Revelation 4 being before the crucifixion..which is Preposterous.
as I will show below ), then The Rapture is well before The Great Tribulation because they are in Heaven when John Arrives in Chapter 4.
Significant Dates: 2 The Global Government.
in Eschatology
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It's an interesting correlation.