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Last Daze

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About Last Daze

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  1. The Prophesies of Ezra

    Yes, I understand that the Apocrypha is not part of the biblical canon, and that scripture takes precedence. I see it as supplemental, providing some additional insight and detail, not as the source of doctrine. Thanks for the offer to answer questions.
  2. Conversation about the Tribulation and God`s Wrath.

    Hello Marilyn. My view is that the seven seals reveal a progression of events. The event that the seventh seal reveals is the time of God's wrath. God's wrath is contained within the seven plagues (trumpets/bowls). The seven plagues are distinctly different from and subsequent to the events revealed in the first six seals. That's what I see as the natural reading of the text.
  3. Conversation about the Tribulation and God`s Wrath.

    The seventh seal reveals seven plagues. There are seven within the seventh. It is the same pattern as used in the march around Jericho. They marched around the city once for six days and then seven times on the seventh day. The seven plagues don't end at the opening of the seventh seal. That's when they begin.
  4. Conversation about the Tribulation and God`s Wrath.

    So do you think that when the seventh seal is opened that Jesus leaves heaven and then the seventh trumpet sounds?
  5. The Prophesies of Ezra

    Thanks for taking the time to post those passages. Was intrigued so I went out and bought an apocrypha.
  6. Conversation about the Tribulation and God`s Wrath.

    What exactly do you think comes after the sixth seal, which is immediately after the great tribulation?
  7. Conversation about the Tribulation and God`s Wrath.

    I think this is just going to go in circles.
  8. Not Destined for Wrath

    That is a very concise summation of the pretrib mindset held by many. Not what I believe.
  9. Post - Tribulation Purposelessness

    This is such rhetorical nonsense.
  10. Conversation about the Tribulation and God`s Wrath.

    Hello Marilyn, When I quoted Matthew 24:30's reference to the sixth seal, I stopped where I did intentionally. Have you noticed that the plagues are missing from Matthew 24? We know that they're going to happen but where do they fit into the scheme of what Jesus described? I read Matthew 24:30 like this: And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, [and then the seven plagues happen] and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30 Let me explain why. When the sixth seal is opened, there is no mention of people seeing the Son of Man. They see the sign of the Son of Man. The sky is rolled back and people get a glimpse into the spiritual realm. Based on what they say, they see the throne room scene of Revelation 5. And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb." Revelation 6:16 That's a funny thing to say, unless of course you've seen someone sitting on a throne and a lamb. Notice also that they respond to what they're seeing with fear, fear of the coming wrath. Fear is different from mourning. Fear has to do with punishment. Mourning expresses sorrow or loss. When they actually see the Son of Man, they realize that they have chosen poorly and regret it. If you disagree with this then I'm curious as to where you see the plagues fitting into Matthew 24 and what you consider to be the sign of the Son of Man. Jesus makes a distinction between seeing the sign of the Son of Man and seeing the Son of Man. Why would He do that if its all considered the same thing?
  11. Conversation about the Tribulation and God`s Wrath.

    And thanks for taking the time to give it consideration.
  12. Timelines and Chronology

    Hello ghtan. I think the man of sin seizes power by intrigue through the manifestation of supernatural signs and wonders. He does uproot three of the ten leaders using (supernatural) force, but I see that as defensive and part of the intrigue. Going back to Daniel 12, "shattering the power of the holy people" brings an end to the time of trouble. Its only a short time after that that Jesus returns. That's what I base it on.
  13. Conversation about the Tribulation and God`s Wrath.

    Hi Marilyn, I've posted how I see the chronology along with a somewhat graphical timeline in this post here if you want to give it a look. There are actually three posts in that thread that explain it. Since I understand the value of discussing direct, specific points, I'm happy to oblige you here as well. I think it's important that we stick with biblical terminology as it's defined in order to avoid confusion. So, firstly, we need to define "the tribulation". I see the time of trouble (the tribulation) as the time, times, and half a time, or 42 months that the man of sin is given to act. There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. Revelation 13:5, 7 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. Daniel 7:25 During this 42 month period, the man of sin is causing trouble (tribulation) for the saints. The source of the trouble is the man of sin, and those being troubled are the saints. At the beginning of this 42 month period, the intensity of the tribulation is very great, such as has never been before. This intense persecution continues until the sixth seal is opened. “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky." Matthew 24:29-30a I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Revelation 6:16-17 Those two verses speak of the same event, the sixth seal, and describe what takes place immediately after the great tribulation. The great tribulation is a subset of the 42 month tribulation and takes place at the beginning. The term "great" is a description of the intensity of the tribulation. If the same level of intensity that began the 42 months were to extend for the entire 42 months then no flesh would be saved. But it doesn't. It is cut short by the sixth seal. So "great tribulation" becomes "tribulation" for the remainder of the 42 months. Something happens at the sixth seal that diminishes the intensity of the persecution of the saints. Notice in Revelation 6:17 above what begins at the sixth seal, the time of God's wrath. God's wrath is contained within the seven plagues of the seventh seal. However, not every aspect of the seven plagues is God's wrath. A plague begins when a trumpet sounds and ends when a bowl is poured out. It is the bowls that are identified as God's wrath. Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever. Revelation 15:7 The beginning of the great day of the wrath of God adds a new element to "the tribulation". Along with the man of sin's persecution of the saints, we now have God's corrective discipline for those who were deceived into taking the mark and worshiping the image. So, beginning with the seventh seal, those who are worshiping the man of sin are being troubled by God's discipline. The plagues are a judgment against those who are committing the sin of idolatry. Their purpose is to bring conviction in hopes that it leads to repentance. The discipline of the plagues will continue and intensify until people have either repented, or hardened their hearts irreversibly. When it gets to the point that no one repents, bowls of wrath are poured out in rapid succession. This happens within days of the end of the 42 months. I hope my ramblings are somewhat coherent. I'll summarize below based on the above. "The tribulation" is the 42 month period when the saints are given into the hand of the man of sin. "The great tribulation" is a subset of the tribulation. It begins at the same time of the 42 months, just after the abomination of desolation is set up. It ends when the sixth seal is opened. I'd guess that the great tribulation lasts ~40-180 days but we really don't know. After the sixth seal, the seventh seal begins the time of God's wrath which is contained within the seven plagues. Not every aspect of the seven plagues is God's wrath. The plagues bring about adverse conditions for the purpose of repentance. After all who are going to repent have repented, then the wrath of God, which is contained in the bowls, begins. The wrath of God begins during the final days of the tribulation. The tribulation ends at the end of the 42 months when the two witnesses are killed. The seventh plague brings the day of the Lord which happens on the 45th day after the tribulation and completes the wrath of God. Apologies for being so verbose but I thought the additional details might help.
  14. Timelines and Chronology

    The opening of the seventh seal begins the time of the seven plagues. Each plague has a beginning point and an ending point which is expressed as a trumpet sounding and a bowl being poured out respectively. The trumpets are sounded in sequence and the bowls are poured out in sequence, however, one plague does not necessarily have to finish before the next one starts. The exceptions to this are the fifth and sixth plagues, which are referred to as “woes.” Those two plagues each run their course before the next one begins. The seventh plague is the day of the Lord when the wicked are destroyed and Jesus returns to establish the kingdom of God on earth. The plagues begin after everyone has decided whether or not to worship the man of sin. They only affect those who choose to receive the benefits of his mark (buying & selling) and comply with (worship) the image. The purpose of the plagues is to convict those people that they have been deceived and should repent of their idolatry. The initial plagues are phased in, beginning as a fraction of what they will become, which is consistent with corrective discipline. There will come a time when people refuse to repent, but that is not until very late in the progression of the plagues, just before the two witnesses are killed. Near the end of the plagues is when God’s wrath, contained in the seven bowls, is poured out. The first four plagues affect creation. God is demonstrating His power over His creation in contrast to the man of sin’s impotence to do anything about it. These four plagues account for the majority of the time of the seven plagues. The fifth plague (first woe) is the only one that is given a time duration, which is five months. It is completed just days before the death of the two witnesses at the end of the 1260 days. The sixth plague (second woe) immediately follows the fifth and only lasts a few days because at that time, the conditions are so oppressive with no fresh water and intense heat that a person couldn't survive longer. During the sixth plague, the two witnesses are killed which brings immediate relief from the oppressive conditions. Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. Revelation 11:9-10 But on the fourth day after their death, those people who were celebrating have a problem. But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them. And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them. Revelation 11:11-12 Will there be more plagues in retaliation? Are they preparing to invade? The man of sin responds to this development by convincing the kings of the world to gather their armies at Armageddon. And for the next 40 days, that’s what takes place. Also during the 40 days, those who responded to the conviction of the plagues and repented are having the sincerity of their repentance tested now that the effects of the plagues have subsided. It’s during these 40 days that Jesus says the following: “Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.” Revelation 16:15 After the 40 days, the seventh plague takes place and completes the 1335 day period. The seventh trumpet sounds and begins the day of the Lord. Jesus descends to the clouds and sounds the last trumpet, the trumpet of God. Then the Lord will appear over them, and His arrow will go forth like lightning; and the Lord God will blow the trumpet, and will march in the storm winds of the south. Zechariah 9:14 The kingdom of Satan is destroyed along with the ungodly, and the seventh plague is completed in one day. The millennial reign of Christ begins and His kingdom fills the earth.
  15. Conversation about the Tribulation and God`s Wrath.

    Hi Marilyn, No rush. I'm glad you're recovering. That's not really how I see it. I see Rev 6:16 as referring to the "time" of God's wrath. I believe the "time" of God's wrath is in what follows the sixth seal, which is the seven plagues of the seventh seal, more specifically, the seven bowls. Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever. Revelation 15:7
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