Last Daze

The best answer, IMHO, is to just be ready as Christ instructed us to be.  Then it doesn't matter.  Pray, and don't get entangled in the affairs of the world.   Understand who the false prophet is and what he does (image of the beast) and it'll take care of itself.  Way too much strife and dissension is stirred up by this issue which I consider more on the periphery.

Blessings Everyone

      Even if the message is good it is spoiled by the absence of patience,love,kindness,compassion,,,,,,plus,there is not one individual here that does not see dimly & in part.....it is from Jesus own Words

To add to that...each tree is known by its fruit.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law."  Galatians 5:22,23

And we are to speak the truth in love.

"Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things."  1 Corinthians 13:4-7

People don't come to an understanding of the truth or the things to come from works of the flesh.  Flesh and blood does not reveal God's truth to us.

"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come."  John 16:13

It is the function of the Holy Spirit to lead us into truth.  If you believe the Holy Spirit has given you something to share, share it in love (see definition above).  You've done your part, let the Holy Spirit do His.  God's word will not return void.

Like kwikphilly said...don't let the taint of the flesh spoil the message you're sharing.  If you can't share it in love and then leave it to the Holy Spirit to do His job, perhaps an examination of motive is in order.

So WHO in Paul's mind is the restrainer? He said "now we know." Of course it is the Holy Spirit working through the CHURCH that is restraining the lawless one, and preventing his revealing until the right time. At that right time the church will be raptured and THEN the man of sin will be revealed.

LAMAD

 

"And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way."  2 Thess 2:6,7

The restrainer being the church really doesn't make that much sense.  More likely, what's doing the restraining is the abyss.  And what's being restrained is the evil angel that comes up out of the abyss per Rev 17.  The false prophet (man of sin) is empowered by this fallen angel so he can't be revealed until this evil angel is released from the restraint of the abyss that is restraining him with restraints.  *Redundancy added for emphasis.

We know that the abyss is a prison, a place of restraint for fallen angels per Rev 20.  There is an angel that has a key to the abyss.  Granted, we're not given a lot of details about the hierarchy or roles and responsibilities of angels but its a reasonable assumption that this angel with the key is the one that is taken out of the way so that this fallen angel is released from the abyss so that the man of sin is subsequently revealed.

How can something that you have been given power over be a hindrance to you?  The false prophet has been given power over the saints.  The saints are "given into his hand" and "he makes war with the saints and overcomes them".  Doesn't sound like much of a restraining influence to me.

Per Rev 7..."A great multitude which no one could count"..."These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation".  The great tribulation is clearly a time of persecution tied to the abomination of desolation per Jesus in Matthew 24.  If the church is raptured before the revealing of the false prophet and subsequent abomination of desolation, who makes up the great multitude that no one could count?  There is zero support for some "great revival".  On the contrary..."For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness."  Not very fertile ground for a revival I don't think, much less a great multitude beyond number.

That's why I don't see the church as being the restrainer.  Why would you think that its the church?  Why would the church have to be gone first?

 

 

 

 

Next, John used the color white 17 times in Revelation to represent righteousness. With this record, why would ANYONE think John would use white even once to represent evil? Anyone who makes the first seal to represent the antichrist is showing they have no understanding of chapters 4 & 5 that is the CONTEXT of the first seal. This first rider rides a WHITE horse because the church is the BODY of Christ on earth.

 

 

Riding a white horse in Roman culture was an indication of triumph or victory.  The rider of the first seal, a fallen angel, orchestrates the rise of the false prophet (11th horn of Daniel 7)  who is given a season of victory.

 

"I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them." Daniel 7:21

 

"It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him."  Revelation 13:7

 

That's why the fallen angel rides a white horse going forth conquering and to conquer.  Its because he's victorious and he rules...for a season.  Yes, white is representative of righteousness.  That does not make everything white, righteous.  In this context, a white horse rider, its an indication of triumph or victory.

 

This is not even good or sensible theory.  GOD wrote this book, using John's help. Always remember, the devil did not write it. Sure, he would LOVE to paint himself white, but he did not get to write. GOD wrote it. If you wish to see what color God chooses for Satan or the Beast, go to chapter 17. God chose Fiery Red. Once again, think this through: John used the color white 17 times in this book, if I remember right. Every other time was to represent righteousness, as in showing the Bride in white robes. It is not senseable to even think in this one instance God would choose to use white for anything else than righteousness.

 

Next, you MUST consider the CONTEXT of the first seal. This context is the vision of the throne room in chapters 4 & 5. If you understand these two chapters, you KNOW the first seal was broken around 32 AD. Do you really thing something in 32 AD has ANYTHING to do with the Beast of Revelation 13? Such a thought would be preposterous. MAKE NO MISTAKE, the first seal is a rider on a WHITE horse, and that is to represent the church of Jesus Christ sent out to make disciples of all nations. Do you imagine that Satan would just step aside and allow the word of God to go into all nations without a fight? NO WAY. So there has been conquering everywhere the Word of God is preached in new places. OF COURSE over time the church has conquered.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Doubling down on irrelevance doesn't make it any more relevant.  The color of the horse is irrelevant.  The meaning of a white horse rider is what is important.  It signifies victory or triumph.  It doesn't mean the rider is righteous.  It means he is victorious.  That's a distinction I don't think you're making.  It's meant to indicate that the rider was victorious, not necessarily righteous.

 

Wasn't it Christ that conquered?  Wasn't it He who was given all authority in heaven and on earth?  Where does He tell the church to go forth conquering and to conquer?  What will they ultimately conquer?  That doesn't make any sense.  The church is to share the good news of Christ's conquest and disciple those who believe, not conquer, whatever you think that means.

 

In this case of course the color of the horse is important, just as with the other three horses. We can be sure that God planned every last word in this book, and He chose white. Remember, God could have chosen any color. Can you give an example scripture where white means conquest?

 

First we must understand how this Greek word translated as "conquer" here was used in other scriptures:

 

The KJV translates Strongs G3528 in the following manner: overcome (24x), conquer (2x), prevail (1x), get the victory (1x).

 

So what this horse and rider were really doing is OVERCOMING. This is exactly what the church had to do as the gospel spread from Israel. If you wish to consider overcoming, think of what Paul went through to take the gospel to the Gentiles. The devil hit him with everything he had, trying to stop him, but Paul just kept on. He OVERCAME. I am reminded of the missionaries in "the end of the Spear" and "through Gates of Splendor." Satan thought to stop the advance of the gospel, yet, one of the wives of the men who were killed went into the jungle and ended up getting many of the tribe born again. EVERYWHERE new that the gospel has gone, as required overcoming Satan's attempts to keep gates up and locked. If you wish to say the white horse means victory, then PRAISE THE LORD, the church has certainly overcome, for there is no place in the world today that the gospel cannot be heard in some manner.

 

OF COURSE Christ conquered death. But the church had to break down every gate Satan has put up, trying to keep the gospel out of new nations and places. MANY saints have lost their life as they spread the gospel. So the church has conquered and overcome also.

 

Here is where:  he does not use those exact words, but this certainly will mean overcoming.

 

Matthew 28:¹⁹ Go therefore^[c] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, ²⁰ teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

 

Do you agree that this horse and rider is to represent the church? Do you agree this seal was broken in 32 AD?

 

LAMAD

 

Have a good day LAMAD.

 

 

Next, John used the color white 17 times in Revelation to represent righteousness. With this record, why would ANYONE think John would use white even once to represent evil? Anyone who makes the first seal to represent the antichrist is showing they have no understanding of chapters 4 & 5 that is the CONTEXT of the first seal. This first rider rides a WHITE horse because the church is the BODY of Christ on earth.

 

 

Riding a white horse in Roman culture was an indication of triumph or victory.  The rider of the first seal, a fallen angel, orchestrates the rise of the false prophet (11th horn of Daniel 7)  who is given a season of victory.

 

"I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them." Daniel 7:21

 

"It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him."  Revelation 13:7

 

That's why the fallen angel rides a white horse going forth conquering and to conquer.  Its because he's victorious and he rules...for a season.  Yes, white is representative of righteousness.  That does not make everything white, righteous.  In this context, a white horse rider, its an indication of triumph or victory.

 

This is not even good or sensible theory.  GOD wrote this book, using John's help. Always remember, the devil did not write it. Sure, he would LOVE to paint himself white, but he did not get to write. GOD wrote it. If you wish to see what color God chooses for Satan or the Beast, go to chapter 17. God chose Fiery Red. Once again, think this through: John used the color white 17 times in this book, if I remember right. Every other time was to represent righteousness, as in showing the Bride in white robes. It is not senseable to even think in this one instance God would choose to use white for anything else than righteousness.

 

Next, you MUST consider the CONTEXT of the first seal. This context is the vision of the throne room in chapters 4 & 5. If you understand these two chapters, you KNOW the first seal was broken around 32 AD. Do you really thing something in 32 AD has ANYTHING to do with the Beast of Revelation 13? Such a thought would be preposterous. MAKE NO MISTAKE, the first seal is a rider on a WHITE horse, and that is to represent the church of Jesus Christ sent out to make disciples of all nations. Do you imagine that Satan would just step aside and allow the word of God to go into all nations without a fight? NO WAY. So there has been conquering everywhere the Word of God is preached in new places. OF COURSE over time the church has conquered.

 

LAMAD

 

Doubling down on irrelevance doesn't make it any more relevant.  The color of the horse is irrelevant.  The meaning of a white horse rider is what is important.  It signifies victory or triumph.  It doesn't mean the rider is righteous.  It means he is victorious.  That's a distinction I don't think you're making.  It's meant to indicate that the rider was victorious, not necessarily righteous.

Wasn't it Christ that conquered?  Wasn't it He who was given all authority in heaven and on earth?  Where does He tell the church to go forth conquering and to conquer?  What will they ultimately conquer?  That doesn't make any sense.  The church is to share the good news of Christ's conquest and disciple those who believe, not conquer, whatever you think that means.

Next, John used the color white 17 times in Revelation to represent righteousness. With this record, why would ANYONE think John would use white even once to represent evil? Anyone who makes the first seal to represent the antichrist is showing they have no understanding of chapters 4 & 5 that is the CONTEXT of the first seal. This first rider rides a WHITE horse because the church is the BODY of Christ on earth.

Riding a white horse in Roman culture was an indication of triumph or victory.  The rider of the first seal, a fallen angel, orchestrates the rise of the false prophet (11th horn of Daniel 7)  who is given a season of victory.

"I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them." Daniel 7:21

"It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him."  Revelation 13:7

That's why the fallen angel rides a white horse going forth conquering and to conquer.  Its because he's victorious and he rules...for a season.  Yes, white is representative of righteousness.  That does not make everything white, righteous.  In this context, a white horse rider, its an indication of triumph or victory.

Even that idea you have of a "trigger" is a supposition from men you've been taught, it is not Biblical. It's supposition coming from those who can't understand how The Father and His Son can deliver His servants through... the fire, and not have to do it before the fire hits. You should have learned that even from the example in Dan.3 about the three of God's servants thrown into the hot fiery furnace heated seven times hotter than necessary, with a 4th Man in the furnace with them (Jesus), and when they came out their clothes didn't even smell of smoke!

 

And I'll add to that Lot and his family, Noah and his family, the children of Israel in Egypt.

Different ways of protecting those He considers righteous from His judgment.  The firey furnace wasn't so much about judgment but it certainly was God's protection.

 

I've always read and heard that the trio of evil (the red dragon, the beast from the sea, and the beast from the earth) found in Revelation 12 and 13 correlate to Satan, the Antichrist, and the false prophet respectively. This would mean that the trio is made up of a demon, a human, and another human.

The red dragon is clearly identified as Satan in Revelation 12:9. The beast from the sea (with 7 heads and 10 horns) is described by John in Revelation 17:8. It says that that the beast was and is not and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. That description indicates that at some point before John was given the revelation, the beast "was" (actively doing things). At the time of the revelation, the beast "is not" (actively doing things) with the natural inference being because he was cast into the abyss. I say that because at some point he comes up out of the abyss.

Based on that description, I have difficulty seeing how the beast from the sea can be a human. He would have had to have existed in the first century or before. Also, references to the abyss found in the Bible indicate that it's a holding place or prison for demons. Luke 8:30-32 Revelation 20:2-3 If the beast from the sea comes up out of the abyss, how can he be a human?

We know from Daniel 10 that there are certain demons that influence governments i.e. the prince of Persia, the prince of Greece. It's reasonable to assume that there is also a prince of Rome, a demon that caused the Roman Empire to exercise dominion. It could be that this demon, the prince of Rome, caused Roman greatness and at some point was thrown into the abyss to be held until his release in the end times. This seems to be a better fit for the beast from the sea than a human. It would also explain the need for a "mouthpiece".

I see the trio of evil correlating to Satan, "the prince of Rome", and the false prophet (Antichrist) making it a demon, another demon, and a human.

I would be interested in any scripturally based thoughts on the subject.  Please don't link in websites or copy+paste info.  Always provide a scriptural basis and limit speculation.

You're understanding of scripture is limited to what's been taught over the centuries. The Beast, Satan, and the false prophet are fallen angels. They can and do live and appear as men on the earth.

 

The Beast and the False Prophet were devils that reigned as kings in Rome, specifically the historical 9th and 12th Roman Emperors. The key to understanding this is the fact one of the 12 disciples, Judas, was a devil.

 

Why is Judas called "the son of perdition?"

 

 

Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

 

 

 

 

Another key interpretation to understanding Revelation is the releasing of the 4 Euphrates angels. Each of these 4 angels is a host of 50 million enties totaling 200 million. Now count the number of the Beast, "his number is 666."

 

 

 

Num 1:2 Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of their names, every male by their polls;

Num 3:40 And the LORD said unto Moses, Number all the firstborn of the males of the children of Israel from a month old and upward, and take the number of their names.

 

A word to the wise, if you can recieve it.

 

There's no doubt that Satan and all of the evil forces will be working their deception in the last days.

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.   2Thess 2:7-10

I don't know all the technical "ins" and "outs" of how the spiritual realm works, how people are influenced or possessed, or the difference.  We have a glimpse of what goes on and I consider the rest conjecture.  Whatever Satan did to Judas will probably happen again to the false prophet.  That's how the false prophet can speak as a dragon.

And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, belonging to the number of the twelve.  Luke 22:3

Regardless if its a fallen angel taking on the form of a man, or a man who Satan enters into, the manifestation in the material realm will be that of a man with supernatural powers and the deception of those days will be unparallelled.  That's what we have to guard against.  The takeaway from it all is that we should be ready, and not weighed down with the cares of the world.

“Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”  Luke 21:34-36

Sidebar: the abyss is a place of restraint for demons / fallen angels per Rev 20.

 

I decided to revisit this thread so if this sounds old, sorry.

I'm curious here Jesse, how do you know who exactly demons are? Where does it say demons are only disembodied souls from the Nephalim? Are demons fallen angels? The evidence probably supports this, but to assume all offspring of Angel and woman are demons only seems to be a stretch, especially without support of scripture.

Thanks. Let me know what you are thinking.

 

 

Jesse

 

Could you please answer spock, brother?

 

 

I haven't seen Jesse on in quite a while.

 

 

 

 

The seventh trumpet / bowl is the END.

 

PROVE IT. Since you think you can rearrange John's God given chronology, then it will be up to you to prove the necessity of moving things around. As I read it, there is chapters 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, AFTER the 7th trumpet and before Jesus comes. this is the way John wrote it. Why do you feel such a great need to rearrange? What is wrong with the sequence John gave us? Is it because you just can't bare to think of the 7th seal as the MIDPOINT? Did you notice that those that flee into the wilderness at seeing the abomination, flee right after the 7th trumpet? That is proof positive for most that the 7th trumpet sounds at the midpoint.

 

In case you did not notice, some of the trumpet judgments come as partial judgments as one third: God showing those who oppose Him that He has POWER over the elements. But when he gets to the vials, It is 100% destruction. John wrote these things in sequence and numbered them for a REASON. It is clear that the vials must come AFTER the trumpets.

 

However, I know you will just keep on writing your false theories. One day when these things happen, you will see that they will happen in the exact order John wrote them.

 

LAMAD

 

Did you compare the seventh trumpet and seventh bowl?

 

Seventh trumpet:

And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm. Revelation 11:19

 

Seventh bowl:

And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague was extremely severe.  Revelation 16:18,21

 

Two unrelated events?  No. The trumpets and bowls are related to each other.  Look at the symbolism used, trumpets and bowls.  An angel sounds a trumpet which begins a judgment.  At some point later that angel pours out a bowl which completes the judgment.  That's why some of the judgments start off as a third, then go to full.  Serving made an excellent point in this post: I'm still waiting to read your reply on that one.

 

In case you missed my earlier post on the trumpet / bowl connection here's the link:

 

That's why chapter 12 and following mostly give additional details about the seals and trumpets in 6-11.  The seventh trumpet is the return of Christ.  No chronology has been rearranged.

 

There is something I think you MISSED:

 

¹⁹ And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

WHERE is this lightning? WHERE was this hail? Do you really think there will be great hail in the temple in heaven? Remember, this is a VISION. Without a doubt, what John saw was as PROPHECY, foretelling what was to come on the earth.

 

WHY is one trumpet a one third judgment, while the vial is total judgment? It is because the trumpets come first, and God has great mercy, even in His wrath; the trumpets are to show to those on earth who will not repent, that God has power of the oceans and fresh water and over the power of the sun. They come as warnings; God showing the earth that He is LORD OVER ALL. Sadly, few if any repent, so in the vials, God releases full judgment filled with His wrath.

 

You might as well give up! People have been trying to prove the trumpets and vials are the same judgments for years. They all  fail for they are wrong. How can anyone prove against the truth? They can only try. Do you not understand John's (and God's) chronology at all? The first six trumpets are sounded in the FIRST HALF of the 70th week, then the 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint, and the vials come LATE in the second half of the week. There will be TIME between the trumpets and vials.

 

LAMAD

 

I'm not going to belabor the point.  I could use CAPS and tell you over and over how wrong you are but noisy gongs serve no useful purpose.  Just have your re-think triggers in place LAMAD in case it doesn't come down like you think it will.  We can compare notes in heaven and I'll buy you a Coke (or the celestial equivalent) if you're correct.  I understand your point of view and I keep it in mind.  I hope you do so likewise.  That's the benefit of discussions.

 

Thanks, Last Daze. it was a pleasure discussing with you.  If the truth were known, I really don't know much. Some here have FAR more general knowledge of the bible than I do. However, what I know I know very well, and I understand. For example, It was God Himself speaking to me that told me I could find the entire 70th week clearly marked, after He told me I could find the midpoint "clearly marked." When He told he, I suddenly knew WHY I could find the entire week "clearly marked." I knew it would be the SAME MARKER. He sent me first to specifically find the exact midpoint "clearly marked," (the exact time the sacrifices would be stopped or the exact time of the abomination)  and told me how to find it. Once I found that the exact midpoint was marked by a "7" then I knew I had found the entire week "clearly marked."

 

It seems very few here believe that the 70th week begins with the 7th seal, and ends with the 7th vial, with the 7th trumpet as the midpoint. Well, at least they have been exposed to the truth.

 

I will take you up on that coke! Your theories are so far from what I teach, I doubt if we can agree on much the other teaches. Time will tell.

 

One last point: I have asked no one this question: do you really think there will be a great storm in the throne room of heaven, including great hail?

 

LAMAD

 

Yes, we are far apart and I think "time will tell" is a good place to leave it.

The lightening and voices and thunderings are likely in the heavens...the earthquake is on earth for obvious reasons, and the hail starts in the heavens and falls to earth.  The only thing I see that has to be in His temple is the ark of His covenant.

 

 

The seventh trumpet / bowl is the END.

 

PROVE IT. Since you think you can rearrange John's God given chronology, then it will be up to you to prove the necessity of moving things around. As I read it, there is chapters 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, AFTER the 7th trumpet and before Jesus comes. this is the way John wrote it. Why do you feel such a great need to rearrange? What is wrong with the sequence John gave us? Is it because you just can't bare to think of the 7th seal as the MIDPOINT? Did you notice that those that flee into the wilderness at seeing the abomination, flee right after the 7th trumpet? That is proof positive for most that the 7th trumpet sounds at the midpoint.

 

In case you did not notice, some of the trumpet judgments come as partial judgments as one third: God showing those who oppose Him that He has POWER over the elements. But when he gets to the vials, It is 100% destruction. John wrote these things in sequence and numbered them for a REASON. It is clear that the vials must come AFTER the trumpets.

 

However, I know you will just keep on writing your false theories. One day when these things happen, you will see that they will happen in the exact order John wrote them.

 

LAMAD

 

Did you compare the seventh trumpet and seventh bowl?

 

Seventh trumpet:

And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm. Revelation 11:19

 

Seventh bowl:

And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague was extremely severe.  Revelation 16:18,21

 

Two unrelated events?  No. The trumpets and bowls are related to each other.  Look at the symbolism used, trumpets and bowls.  An angel sounds a trumpet which begins a judgment.  At some point later that angel pours out a bowl which completes the judgment.  That's why some of the judgments start off as a third, then go to full.  Serving made an excellent point in this post: I'm still waiting to read your reply on that one.

 

In case you missed my earlier post on the trumpet / bowl connection here's the link:

 

That's why chapter 12 and following mostly give additional details about the seals and trumpets in 6-11.  The seventh trumpet is the return of Christ.  No chronology has been rearranged.

 

There is something I think you MISSED:

 

¹⁹ And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

WHERE is this lightning? WHERE was this hail? Do you really think there will be great hail in the temple in heaven? Remember, this is a VISION. Without a doubt, what John saw was as PROPHECY, foretelling what was to come on the earth.

 

WHY is one trumpet a one third judgment, while the vial is total judgment? It is because the trumpets come first, and God has great mercy, even in His wrath; the trumpets are to show to those on earth who will not repent, that God has power of the oceans and fresh water and over the power of the sun. They come as warnings; God showing the earth that He is LORD OVER ALL. Sadly, few if any repent, so in the vials, God releases full judgment filled with His wrath.

 

You might as well give up! People have been trying to prove the trumpets and vials are the same judgments for years. They all  fail for they are wrong. How can anyone prove against the truth? They can only try. Do you not understand John's (and God's) chronology at all? The first six trumpets are sounded in the FIRST HALF of the 70th week, then the 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint, and the vials come LATE in the second half of the week. There will be TIME between the trumpets and vials.

 

LAMAD

 

I'm not going to belabor the point.  I could use CAPS and tell you over and over how wrong you are but noisy gongs serve no useful purpose.  Just have your re-think triggers in place LAMAD in case it doesn't come down like you think it will.  We can compare notes in heaven and I'll buy you a Coke (or the celestial equivalent) if you're correct.  I understand your point of view and I keep it in mind.  I hope you do so likewise.  That's the benefit of discussions.

The seventh trumpet / bowl is the END.

 

PROVE IT. Since you think you can rearrange John's God given chronology, then it will be up to you to prove the necessity of moving things around. As I read it, there is chapters 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, AFTER the 7th trumpet and before Jesus comes. this is the way John wrote it. Why do you feel such a great need to rearrange? What is wrong with the sequence John gave us? Is it because you just can't bare to think of the 7th seal as the MIDPOINT? Did you notice that those that flee into the wilderness at seeing the abomination, flee right after the 7th trumpet? That is proof positive for most that the 7th trumpet sounds at the midpoint.

 

In case you did not notice, some of the trumpet judgments come as partial judgments as one third: God showing those who oppose Him that He has POWER over the elements. But when he gets to the vials, It is 100% destruction. John wrote these things in sequence and numbered them for a REASON. It is clear that the vials must come AFTER the trumpets.

 

However, I know you will just keep on writing your false theories. One day when these things happen, you will see that they will happen in the exact order John wrote them.

 

LAMAD

 

Did you compare the seventh trumpet and seventh bowl?

Seventh trumpet:

And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm. Revelation 11:19

Seventh bowl:

And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague was extremely severe.  Revelation 16:18,21

Two unrelated events?  No. The trumpets and bowls are related to each other.  Look at the symbolism used, trumpets and bowls.  An angel sounds a trumpet which begins a judgment.  At some point later that angel pours out a bowl which completes the judgment.  That's why some of the judgments start off as a third, then go to full.  Serving made an excellent point in this post: I'm still waiting to read your reply on that one.

In case you missed my earlier post on the trumpet / bowl connection here's the link:

That's why chapter 12 and following mostly give additional details about the seals and trumpets in 6-11.  The seventh trumpet is the return of Christ.  No chronology has been rearranged.

 

 

I see a huge problem.  The first seal is in chapter 6, while the Beast He is suppose to represent is chapter 13. Do you imagine God was just trying to confuse us with such timing issues?

 

Oh, there's no problem...much less a huge one.  The seven seals are a framework.  At certain points, details are added and expounded upon.  Take chapter 12 for instance, verse 5.  That's a reference to the birth of Christ.  See how that narrative continues to flow right into the part about the beast from the sea?  Chapter breaks are not part of the original text.  Clearly, it's meant to provide additional detail.  At a cursory glance I'd say that chapter 12 on mostly modifies chapters 6-11.

 

 

There is yet another problem: the first seal was opened around 32 AD, the very time Jesus ascended back into heaven.

 

Pure conjecture.  How can that have happened before Revelation was even written?

 

 

In fact, John used the color white 17 times in Revelation - each other time to represent righteousness. It is likely he would use white here to represent evil?

 

Yes, and he did.  All the deception of wickedness is a characteristic of the false prophet who is empowered by the beast.  "No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds." 2 Corinthians 11:14-15

 

 

The truth is, the first seal is to represent the church - sent out to make disciples of all nations. The white horse and rider ride alone, while the other three ride together. The Red, the Black and the Pale are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the church.

 

I can't even make sense of this according to the descriptions of those seals in Revelation.  The other three ride together?  Famine on the church?

 

No! Not famines on the church! The devil creates famines to stop the advance of the gospel and of course to kill people before they can hear. Did you not read about the pale horse closely? Here is a good example of hearing from the Holy Spirit. I take no credit what-so-ever. I got stuck on the word: "them."

 

⁸ And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

 

It was not me, it was the Holy Spirit. I could not let go of it, so I began to bug God: WHO is "them?" He kept answering the same way, several times: "it is right there in the verse: just keep reading it."

 

As I said before, I am SLOW to learn. It took me too long to get it, but thank God I finally did.

 

Power was given over "them" to kill with the sword: so WHO was given a sword? Of course the red horse and rider.

Power was given over "them" to kill with the hunger: so WHO was bringing famine? Of course the black horse and rider.

Power was given over "them" to kill with the death: so WHO was called "death?" Of course the pale horse and rider.

 

If you notice, the white horse and rider is NOT INCLUDED in "them." Why? Because the white horse and rider are to represent righteousness, not evil. There is not one hint of evil in his description. That is only man's reasonings.

 

Chapter 12, verses 1-5 are written as a parenthesis. In chapters 11 and 12, John is at the midpoint of the week in his narrative, but as you said, these verses are about the birth of Christ.

 

When I was trying to answer God's three questions to me about chapters 4 & 5, and I was unable, suddenly God spoke and told me to go to chapter 12. When I got my bible opened to chapter 12, God spoke again and said, "this chapter was me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns." I counted and if I remember, 32 times. I could easily see, this chapter was about the dragon. Then God continued: " I also chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' for John."  I now know, He sent me to chapter 12 to understand "history lesson." All of Revelation [even from chapter 4:1] is NOT future tense!

 

So we agree; verses 1-5 in chapter 12 are about the birth of Christ, and how Satan tried to kill Jesus as a young child.

 

If you notice, in chapter 12, John is introduced to the Dragon, and in Chapter 13 he is introduced to the Beast and False Prophet. Most of chapters 11, 12, 13, and 14 are written in what I call an "intermission" between the 6th and 7th trumpet, and then between the 7th trumpet and the vials.  I liken this to the curtain closing at a play. The setting must be rearranged to fit the next "act" in the play.  This idea fits perfectly in John's break between the 6th and 7th seals. Two events MUST take place before the 7th seal opens the 70th week: the 144,000 must be sealed for their protection, and the church MUST be seen in heaven, before God's wrath is poured out on earth. It does not fit quite so well between the 6th and 7th trumpet, but it still fits. John cannot sound the 7th trumpet until the setting is rearranged to fit the next "act:" the 7th trumpet that marks the exact midpoint of the week. First, the man of sin will enter the temple at the exact midpoint and declare he is God. So John must first get the man of sin to Jerusalem so he will be there to enter the temple. (11:1-2). Next, the two witnesses MUST be there to witness this abomination. Once John has accomplished these two events, THEN the 7th trumpet can be sounded. (So it is quite like the break between the 6th and 7th seals so far.) I call this the "midpoint intermission."

 

However, after the 7th trumpet has sounded, the vials do not come immediately as the trumpets did after the 7th seal. John continues in his intermission information with the woman fleeing, the great war in the heavenlies, and the introduction to the Beast and False prophet. Then in chapter 14, the 144,000 now seen in heaven, then the message of the three angels that MUST come before the Beast and False prophet set up their image and mark.

 

Always remember, the seals are SEALING the book or scroll from being opened. That is their purpose. NO ONE can open the scroll to read about the trumpet judgments until all the seals are opened. Can you see now the great importance of someone being found worthy to break the seals? this is the KEY to the reign of Satan as the god of this world ENDING and the kingdoms being transferred to Jesus Christ. You see, if NO ONE was ever found worthy to break these seals and open the book, Satan would remain the god of this word indefinitely. THANK GOD Jesus was found worthy! In other words, NO TRUMPET can be sounded until all 7 seals are opened, exactly as John has written it.

 

There is yet another problem: the first seal was opened around 32 AD, the very time Jesus ascended back into heaven.

 

Pure conjecture.  How can that have happened before Revelation was even written?

 

HISTORY. You have already admitted that 12:1-5 was history. Why is it hard to believe another passage is history? Go back and read it again. Here are the three questions God asked me to answer, and I could not for a while:

 

1. Why was I not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father, when there are many verses saying that is where I went to be? Stephen SAW me there.

 

2. Why was "no man found" in the first search for one worthy, that ended in failure? If you read ahead, you find that I was later found worthy.

 

3. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4, when I said I would send Him down as soon as I ascended?

 

It took me FAR TOO LONG to answer these questions. The truth is, this is a vision of the PAST, looking into the throne room while Jesus was still on the earth, or under the earth. then, John got to see the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room, about 32 AD.

 

LAMAD

 

The devil creates famines to stop the advance of the gospel and of course to kill people before they can hear.

Famines are not something new to the church age.  The third seal famine is a result of the second seal war.  Famine is not a 2000 year plan of Satan to kill off the gospel.

⁸ And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

The "them" is a clear contextual reference to Death and Hades.  The more important part of that verse is the "fourth part of the earth".  That's what they were given power over.  It's the limit that God imposed for the cumulative effects of the second and third seal.

Most of chapters 11, 12, 13, and 14 are written in what I call an "intermission" between the 6th and 7th trumpet, and then between the 7th trumpet and the vials.

Chapters 6-11 provide an overview.  Chapters 12 and following largely expound on 6-11.  The seventh trumpet / bowl is the END.  They happen in the same day, maybe in the same hour.  Read them and compare.

HISTORY. You have already admitted that 12:1-5 was history. Why is it hard to believe another passage is history?

Context, that's why.  Remember the "after these things" part?

 

 

One of the forum threads was turning into a discussion of the seven seals and I thought it really should be a thread of its own.

 

As I see it...

 

Preface:  After John writes the letters to the churches he is shown what must take place "after these things" have taken place.  The things that follow, which are the seven seals, take place after the church age.  God regathers Israel and continues His plan with them.

 

First Seal:  This is the release of the beast from the abyss (Rev. 17:8).  He goes forth conquering in a covert manner since peace is not taken away until the second seal.  This beast is an evil angel that causes the multi-national government "feet of iron and clay " to come into existence.  He uses this government to help facilitate the covert ops of the ten leaders.  The ten leaders work to set an economic trap.  This evil angel is given a crown because he is the 8th king (Rev. 17:11).  He is the king of the feet of iron and clay since they have no real leader.  I believe the first seal was opened around the end of world war two.  Since then, we have seen the formation of the U.N. and the regathering of Israel.

 

Second Seal:  When this seal is opened, the ten leaders move to impose their authority on the world.  They destroy the world's capital with fire (Rev. 17:16-18) and begin their rule.  The false prophet has other ideas.  He hijacks their system and nullifies their authority.  The ten leaders realize they've been had.  Three of them turn against him.  So now there are wars and rumors of war, nation rising against nation.  It will seem like the end...but the end is not yet.

 

Third Seal:  As a result of the wars the food supply is disrupted.  Rationing is commonplace.

 

Fourth Seal:  The wars rage on and are then brought to an end.  The three kings come against the false prophet probably with the intention of taking up residence.  This is seen as the death of his fledgling kingdom, a mortal wound.  However, through supernatural support from the evil angel beast, he calls fire down from heaven and destroys the attack of the three kings.  The mortal wound is healed.  The whole earth is amazed.  The false prophet has restored order and established himself as invincible.

 

Fifth Seal:  Fresh off of his supernatural victory, the false prophet enters the temple and declares himself to be God.  He has the people of the world create an image of the evil angel.  Those who don't worship it are put to death.  The issuing of the mark will expedite the identification of those who won't worship the image.  A great number of saints are martyred.

 

Sixth Seal:  The persecution of the saints is so aggressive that unless God intervenes, no saint would be left alive.  The sky opens like a scroll and everyone sees God sitting on His throne and the Lamb.  They fear the wrath that is about to come.  The saints who are alive are caught up.

 

Seventh Seal:  This seal contains the wrath of God.  It is carried out through a series of trumpets sounding and bowl being poured out.  At its conclusion, Jesus returns.

 

I would be interested in hearing other people's intrepretation of the seals or comments.  This is what makes the most sense to me, at this point in time.

 

I see a huge problem.  The first seal is in chapter 6, while the Beast He is suppose to represent is chapter 13. Do you imagine God was just trying to confuse us with such timing issues? There is yet another problem: the first seal was opened around 32 AD, the very time Jesus ascended back into heaven. So how could this first seal ever be meant to represent the Antichrist Beast? I see yet another problem: there is NOT ONE WORD in his description that would even hint of anything evil. In fact, John used the color white 17 times in Revelation - each other time to represent righteousness. It is likely he would use white here to represent evil?

 

The truth is, the first seal is to represent the church - sent out to make disciples of all nations. The white horse and rider ride alone, while the other three ride together. The Red, the Black and the Pale are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the church.

 

The fifth seal is the martrys of the CHURCH AGE, and have nothing to do with the martyrs of the 70th week. They are told they must wait until the last martyr is killed as they were - as CHURCH AGE martyrs. In other words, they must wait for the rapture to end the church age.

 

 

LAMAD

 

I see a huge problem.  The first seal is in chapter 6, while the Beast He is suppose to represent is chapter 13. Do you imagine God was just trying to confuse us with such timing issues?

Oh, there's no problem...much less a huge one.  The seven seals are a framework.  At certain points, details are added and expounded upon.  Take chapter 12 for instance, verse 5.  That's a reference to the birth of Christ.  See how that narrative continues to flow right into the part about the beast from the sea?  Chapter breaks are not part of the original text.  Clearly, it's meant to provide additional detail.  At a cursory glance I'd say that chapter 12 on mostly modifies chapters 6-11.

There is yet another problem: the first seal was opened around 32 AD, the very time Jesus ascended back into heaven.

Pure conjecture.  How can that have happened before Revelation was even written?

In fact, John used the color white 17 times in Revelation - each other time to represent righteousness. It is likely he would use white here to represent evil?

Yes, and he did.  All the deception of wickedness is a characteristic of the false prophet who is empowered by the beast.  "No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds." 2 Corinthians 11:14-15

The truth is, the first seal is to represent the church - sent out to make disciples of all nations. The white horse and rider ride alone, while the other three ride together. The Red, the Black and the Pale are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the church.

I can't even make sense of this according to the descriptions of those seals in Revelation.  The other three ride together?  Famine on the church?

 

 

 

You mean you will stick to your human reasoning of what the Bible says.

No, when I don't know, I don't' try to reason. I pray in the spirit and meditate on the verse until the Holy Spirit teaches me. Human reasoning does not work well in a book like Revelation, as shown by every person here having a different idea.

 

LAMAD

 

Are you saying that you're infallible?  If everything that you say has been taught to you by the Holy Spirit then that's what you're insinuating.

 

No one is infallible but God. Of course I could miss it. However, I don't think I have missed it. Did you notice how sure the Apostle Paul was in his revelations? He got his gospel - the very gospel we will be judged by - through revelation knowledge. Jesus said that revelation knowledge was rock on which the church would be built. When the Holy Spirit tells you that you can find something, then tells you how to find it (the exact midpoint of the week) how could one miss? People miss the truth of the book of Revelation by trying to reason it out - human reasoning. It is an extremely difficult book to understand by reasoning. When I knew that God wanted me to learn the book of Revelation, I determined to come with a blank slate and know nothing, and allow Him to teach me. I just laid aside all I thought I knew, which was very little, and allowed Him to teach me.

 

Please don't misunderstand; I think I was a very slow student! When He was trying to teach me chapters 4 & 5, I just could not get it. It took me weeks, even with His help, before I finally could answer His three questions. However, I finally did get it, but ONLY with His help. I now understand that the vision of the throne room was a vision of the past: John was looking into the throne room before Jesus rose from the dead, and with time passing, right up to the moment Jesus ascended back into heaven. This is the context of the first seal.

 

LAMAD

 

So what happens when what the Holy Spirit told you doesn't agree with what the Holy Spirit told someone else?  Obviously the Holy Spirit is not in err.

 

You mean you will stick to your human reasoning of what the Bible says.

No, when I don't know, I don't' try to reason. I pray in the spirit and meditate on the verse until the Holy Spirit teaches me. Human reasoning does not work well in a book like Revelation, as shown by every person here having a different idea.

 

LAMAD

 

Are you saying that you're infallible?  If everything that you say has been taught to you by the Holy Spirit then that's what you're insinuating.

 

 

 

 

If you believe you have to die, you will surely get left behind when Jesus comes for His Bride. Why? Simply because you have NO FAITH to be caught up into the air and changed into your resurrection body. He is coming for those WATCHING for His coming. that watching includes BELIEVING in His coming. Since you don't, then you don't qualify to escape what is coming. That escape clause is found in Luke 21:36. Since you won't be found worthy to escape, not believing in God's escape plan, you will be left behind to face the Beast. Good luck with that, for God has already said you will be overcome and lose your head. Well, isn't that where your faith is?

 

 

 

LAMAD

 

 

So we are to be found worthy to escape suffering and tribulation?  Doesn't that run contrary to God's word?

 

Calling the 70th week, seven years of wrath, skews your thinking.  What support do you have for claiming there will be seven years of wrath before Christ returns?  I see a sixth seal rapture, as I believe you do, but not until after the midpoint of the 70th week, after the saints have endured persecution.

 

I don't think the term "escape" in Luke 21:36 is a reference to the rapture alone.

 

“Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Luke 21:34-36

 

The trap that's coming for those who aren't alert but weighed down with worldliness is the deception of the false prophet.  By praying and watching we are strengthened to resist his rule and give our lives for Christ.  By doing so, we are worthy to escape the wrath that is to follow.  Those who are alive and remain are caught up, and likewise escape the wrath to come.  What is to be escaped is God's wrath.  It is escaped by martyrdom first and then by rapture for those that remain....as I see it.

 

I suspect you can read as well as I can. What does Luke 21:36 mean?

 

³⁶ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

It tells us to both watch and PRAY ALWAYS that we [anyone as an individual) may be counted worthy to escape... Well, are YOU watching? Are you praying? Are you obeying this verse?

 

Don't try and sidestep by creating a strawman. OF COURSE we will have tribulation. OF COURSE we will have suffering. the word of God TELLS US this. So what does Luke mean by "all these things?  Is this discourse in Luke the very same discourse as we find in Matthew 24? I believe it is.  Therefore what we will escape is found in the respective chapter of each book. So what Jesus was saying is that we can escape the abomination and the days of great tribulation to follow. Luke speaks of "that day" referring to the Day of the Lord.So these are the things we escape and we escape these things by way of the rapture.  So Jesus, through Luke, is telling us we can escape the Day of the Lord. Is this too hard for you to believe?

 

Sorry, your theory won't work, for it is AGAINST the word of the Lord. God has already said that the Beast will be given authority OVER the saints. Yet you think you can endure and survive? Good luck with that, when God says otherwise!

 

You must get your chronology in order - chronological order, that is. God's wrath begins at the beginning of the Day and the 70th week. So if we are to escape by being caught up, we must be caught up BEFORE the Day begins.....and that is exactly what the bible teaches us.

 

By the way, I am taking John's word for when God's wrath begins. I happen to believe God that it will begin at the 6th seal in chapter 6 of revelation, and will continue on through chapters 7, 8, 9,10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, and continue on when Jesus fights at the battle of Armageddon.

 

"The trap" as you wrote is simply one more thing that those will ESCAPE when they are caught up.

 

LAMAD

 

 

I suspect you can read as well as I can. What does Luke 21:36 mean?

 

 

I told you what I thought it meant.  Are you reading all of what I typed or are you shrieking-out on the first thing you disagree with?

 

 

You must get your chronology in order - chronological order, that is. God's wrath begins at the beginning of the Day and the 70th week.

 

 

Incorrectly identifying the 70th week as seven years of wrath is mainly where you err.  Again, I'll ask, how do you support that?  I believe this is a result of your misunderstanding the seals.

 

The things described in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 coincide with the first six seals.  Again, what we are to escape is what comes with the seventh seal, the wrath of God...."praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place".  We will escape either through martyrdom or the rapture.  Those who aren't watching or praying will be deceived and start to incur His wrath.

 

According to you, the first five seals are already broken, if I understand you right.  If you see "all these things that are to be escaped" as what's described in Matt 24 and Luke 21 then how do you plan to escape what you already consider history?

 

Again, how do you support the 70th week being seven years of wrath?  Let's start there.

 

I agree that some of the Olivet discourse (Matthew 24) seems to parallel some of Revelation. But if you read Matthew 24, he writes "the end is not yet" and then ties verse after verse back to that with "for," "then" and "and." In these verses Jesus is speaking of the CHURCH AGE. He does not get to the "end" until verse 13. Then He suddenly jumps right into the middle of the week with the abomination. So the first five seals are NOT IN the 70th week. The start of the week is marked by the 7th seal and the 30 minutes of silence.

 

Why then do you say I incorrectly identify the 70th week as wrath? It is YOUR theory that errs in NOT identifying the 70th week as God's wrath. I start the week where John starts it: with the 7th seal. And I read a very clear verse that God's wrath begins with the 6th seal. Joel proves to us that  the first trumpet judgments are the start of the Day of the Lord, and Old Testament verses prove that the Day of the Lord IS THE DAY OF HIS WRATH, just as John has told us. HOW do I support this? I don't have to, JOHN DOES IT. Read the last verse of Rev. chapter 6. Read Joel 1 and compare it with the first two trumpets. These two trumpets will be the final fulfillment of the Joel 1 prophecy. The 6th seal will be the final fulfillment of the Joel 2 prophecy of the sun and moon.

 

We escape His wrath. Well said. So the rapture MUST come before John writes of His wrath at the 6th seal.

 

how do you plan to escape what you already consider history?

 

Mostly what Jesus said we would escape is God's wrath. I find His wrath in the great earthquake at the 6th seal. I find His wrath in the trumpet judgments. I find His wrath in the vials. I even find God's wrath in the wrath of Satan going after all those who believe that are left behind. It is JUDGMENT time. God's plan will be to destroy the earth and the sinners in the earth. Unfortunately, some of God's people will still be here on earth and they will have to suffer. God has already said they will be overcome. It is not HIs best will for them. His will was they were ready and get caught up. Sadly, many will be lukewarm and will be left behind. Others will be left behind for other reasons. It will be THEIR doing, not God's. So I will escape what is FUTURE, not what is past. I know some on here don't believe in future. I do.

 

LAMAD

 

But if you read Matthew 24, he writes "the end is not yet" and then ties verse after verse back to that with "for," "then" and "and."

Wars and rumors of war, nation rising against nation, famine, earthquakes.  This is what happens in seals 2 through 4.  The only thing not mentioned in the seals is earthquakes.  The second seal begins when the 10 leaders destroy the world's capital. Wars, rumors of war.  It will appear that the world is plunging into chaos but...the end is not yet.  The false prophet comes on the scene with supernatural power and restores order after uprooting three of the horns.  Then Jesus continues with the fifth seal where he talks about martyrdom and the "end".

He does not get to the "end" until verse 13.

In context: ⁹ “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. ¹⁰ At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. ¹¹ Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. ¹² Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. ¹³ But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

This is the fifth seal.  The "end" He is talking about is the end of persecution.  Whoever remains steadfast in the faith to the end of persecution, either by martyrdom or rapture, will be saved.  It's not a reference to the return of Christ which I think is in v14...maybe what the 144,000 accomplish?

Then He suddenly jumps right into the middle of the week with the abomination.

He doesn't suddenly jump anywhere.  Anytime you see a "therefore" you have to determine what its there for.  The word therefore means consequently.  He is saying that because the persecution is coming as mentioned in the previous verses, when you see the AoD.....flee.  Then Jesus goes on to describe the sixth seal.

So the first five seals are NOT IN the 70th week.

I still am not clear on how you come to this conclusion.

Could you elaborate on Rev 4:1 for me especially the highlighted part?

"After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” Revelation 4:1

How do you interpret "after these things"?  What are "these things"?

 

 

If you believe you have to die, you will surely get left behind when Jesus comes for His Bride. Why? Simply because you have NO FAITH to be caught up into the air and changed into your resurrection body. He is coming for those WATCHING for His coming. that watching includes BELIEVING in His coming. Since you don't, then you don't qualify to escape what is coming. That escape clause is found in Luke 21:36. Since you won't be found worthy to escape, not believing in God's escape plan, you will be left behind to face the Beast. Good luck with that, for God has already said you will be overcome and lose your head. Well, isn't that where your faith is?

 

 

 

LAMAD

 

 

So we are to be found worthy to escape suffering and tribulation?  Doesn't that run contrary to God's word?

 

Calling the 70th week, seven years of wrath, skews your thinking.  What support do you have for claiming there will be seven years of wrath before Christ returns?  I see a sixth seal rapture, as I believe you do, but not until after the midpoint of the 70th week, after the saints have endured persecution.

 

I don't think the term "escape" in Luke 21:36 is a reference to the rapture alone.

 

“Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Luke 21:34-36

 

The trap that's coming for those who aren't alert but weighed down with worldliness is the deception of the false prophet.  By praying and watching we are strengthened to resist his rule and give our lives for Christ.  By doing so, we are worthy to escape the wrath that is to follow.  Those who are alive and remain are caught up, and likewise escape the wrath to come.  What is to be escaped is God's wrath.  It is escaped by martyrdom first and then by rapture for those that remain....as I see it.

 

I suspect you can read as well as I can. What does Luke 21:36 mean?

 

³⁶ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

It tells us to both watch and PRAY ALWAYS that we [anyone as an individual) may be counted worthy to escape... Well, are YOU watching? Are you praying? Are you obeying this verse?

 

Don't try and sidestep by creating a strawman. OF COURSE we will have tribulation. OF COURSE we will have suffering. the word of God TELLS US this. So what does Luke mean by "all these things?  Is this discourse in Luke the very same discourse as we find in Matthew 24? I believe it is.  Therefore what we will escape is found in the respective chapter of each book. So what Jesus was saying is that we can escape the abomination and the days of great tribulation to follow. Luke speaks of "that day" referring to the Day of the Lord.So these are the things we escape and we escape these things by way of the rapture.  So Jesus, through Luke, is telling us we can escape the Day of the Lord. Is this too hard for you to believe?

 

Sorry, your theory won't work, for it is AGAINST the word of the Lord. God has already said that the Beast will be given authority OVER the saints. Yet you think you can endure and survive? Good luck with that, when God says otherwise!

 

You must get your chronology in order - chronological order, that is. God's wrath begins at the beginning of the Day and the 70th week. So if we are to escape by being caught up, we must be caught up BEFORE the Day begins.....and that is exactly what the bible teaches us.

 

By the way, I am taking John's word for when God's wrath begins. I happen to believe God that it will begin at the 6th seal in chapter 6 of revelation, and will continue on through chapters 7, 8, 9,10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, and continue on when Jesus fights at the battle of Armageddon.

 

"The trap" as you wrote is simply one more thing that those will ESCAPE when they are caught up.

 

LAMAD

 

I suspect you can read as well as I can. What does Luke 21:36 mean?

I told you what I thought it meant.  Are you reading all of what I typed or are you shrieking-out on the first thing you disagree with?

You must get your chronology in order - chronological order, that is. God's wrath begins at the beginning of the Day and the 70th week.

Incorrectly identifying the 70th week as seven years of wrath is mainly where you err.  Again, I'll ask, how do you support that?  I believe this is a result of your misunderstanding the seals.

The things described in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 coincide with the first six seals.  Again, what we are to escape is what comes with the seventh seal, the wrath of God...."praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place".  We will escape either through martyrdom or the rapture.  Those who aren't watching or praying will be deceived and start to incur His wrath.

According to you, the first five seals are already broken, if I understand you right.  If you see "all these things that are to be escaped" as what's described in Matt 24 and Luke 21 then how do you plan to escape what you already consider history?

Again, how do you support the 70th week being seven years of wrath?  Let's start there.

Are you sure you meant to post this in a prophecy forum?

If you believe you have to die, you will surely get left behind when Jesus comes for His Bride. Why? Simply because you have NO FAITH to be caught up into the air and changed into your resurrection body. He is coming for those WATCHING for His coming. that watching includes BELIEVING in His coming. Since you don't, then you don't qualify to escape what is coming. That escape clause is found in Luke 21:36. Since you won't be found worthy to escape, not believing in God's escape plan, you will be left behind to face the Beast. Good luck with that, for God has already said you will be overcome and lose your head. Well, isn't that where your faith is?

 

 

 

LAMAD

 

So we are to be found worthy to escape suffering and tribulation?  Doesn't that run contrary to God's word?

Calling the 70th week, seven years of wrath, skews your thinking.  What support do you have for claiming there will be seven years of wrath before Christ returns?  I see a sixth seal rapture, as I believe you do, but not until after the midpoint of the 70th week, after the saints have endured persecution.

I don't think the term "escape" in Luke 21:36 is a reference to the rapture alone.

“Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Luke 21:34-36

The trap that's coming for those who aren't alert but weighed down with worldliness is the deception of the false prophet.  By praying and watching we are strengthened to resist his rule and give our lives for Christ.  By doing so, we are worthy to escape the wrath that is to follow.  Those who are alive and remain are caught up, and likewise escape the wrath to come.  What is to be escaped is God's wrath.  It is escaped by martyrdom first and then by rapture for those that remain....as I see it.

 

Acts 1:

⁹ And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. ¹⁰ And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. ¹¹ They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

What other versus do you have to tie scripture with scripture or is that only a one liner quoted out of context. Think about it, where is the back born of your theology to make a claim based on one verse alone, really come on think about!

The chances are, that you have not understood the context of that verse you just quoted me.

Do you really want to know the context of the verse?

 

I think that's pretty straightforward and clear.  Not really interested in arcane spiritualizations.  My theological back born is just fine.  Thank you.

Acts 1:

⁹ And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. ¹⁰ And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. ¹¹ They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

You mean you will stick to your human reasoning of what the Bible says.

 

 

 

 

 

 

What does "watching for His coming" mean to you?  What are the activities that you consider as "watching"?  What does "being ready" mean to you?

 

The false prophet comes with all the deception of wickedness.  THAT is what we are to be on guard against.  Watching for Christ is discerning the times because no one knows the day or the hour.  Being ready involves understanding the signs that Christ gave and being willing to count all as loss, even your life, when the time comes.

 

What exactly are you looking to "escape"?  Is a servant greater than his master?

 

The false prophet is allowed to wage war against the saints and overcome them.  Then comes the rapture.  That's my explanation as to how.

 

I am watching for Him - meaning I EXPECT His coming any day. I don't expect to see the Beast first. I don't expect to see much first. I may see Israel at war, I expect that, but just don't know which will come first. I cannot find anything in scripture that must come first, before He comes for His bride.

 

Luke said "all these things." Yet, I am convinced Luke was the same discourse as given in Matthew 24. so I could list the abomination, and the days of great tribulation that follow. In short, I will MISS the entire 70th week of Daniel. After all, it is for Daniel's people, not the church.

 

You are right, the saints will be given into the Beast and false prophet's hands. But the will of Our father is that all who are HIS are caught up and escape what is coming. He will set no appointment for us, with His wrath. Don't be misled, all of the 70th week will be His wrath.

 

Your theory is a theory, like many others. But does it  agree with scripture? I don't think so. Paul's rapture is the trigger for the Day of the Lord. The 70th week will begin shortly after. His coming on the white horse will be seven plus years later.

 

LAMAD

 

The false prophet is given authority to act for 42 months. God's wrath is only during the false prophet's reign, and then, only AFTER he wages war with the saints because they aren't destined for wrath.  Don't be misled. It is NOT seven years of wrath.  That is a pre-trib misnomer like "seal judgments".

 

Your theory is a theory, like many others. But does it  agree with scripture? I don't think so.  Just be ready to face the persecution that you think you're going to escape.  Have your "re-think" triggers in place and keep watching.  Time will tell.

 

how about we just go with what the bible really says?

 

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

This is at the 6th seal. Following this will be the 7th seal, which is the official start of the 70th week of Daniel, then the trumpet judgments. The trumpets are in the first half of the week. I guess verse 17 is not enough for you to believe God's wrath starts at the beginning of the week. Let's look at the first trumpet.

 

Rev. 8:⁷ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

 

I wonder if there is a prophecy about this event? Oh, yes, there IS:

 

Joel 1

¹⁵ Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

¹⁸ How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.

¹⁹ O Lord, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.

²⁰ The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.

 

Joel tells us that when the grass is burned up, and the trees, it is the Day of the Lord. Now we have John and a witness.

 

So is the Day of the Lord, God's wrath?

 

Isaiah 13:6

Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

 

This sure sounds like God is angry!

 

Isaiah 13:9

Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

 

Isaiah 13:13

Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

 

This comes right out and SAYS that the Day of the Lord comes with fierce anger. God's plan is to destroy the earth and the sinners in the earth.

 

So are you going to stick with a theory that comes from imagination and human reasoning, or will you believe what the Bible says? John tells us God's wrath begins before the 7oth week begins, and continues on through the week. Of course it gets greater in the vials, for people have not repented. But God shows us His wrath is continuous through the entire week, first with the trumpets and then with the vials.

 

John then begins God's wrath at the 6th seal. Following that, the 7th, then the 70th week begins with the trumpet judgments. Finally, 3 1/3 years later, we arrive at the midpoint where the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God, stopping the daily sacrifices. It is the abomination. Shortly after the midpoint, John arrives in chapter 13 and the Beast gets his 42 months of authority. They will go until he is captured and thrown into the lake of fire when Jesus returns in chapter 19. Some time after the abomination, the false prophet will arise and finally the days of great tribulation arrive that Jesus spoke of.

 

So we see the TRUTH is, God's wrath was BEFORE the false prophet arrives (shortly after the midpoint of the week) God's wrath was DURING the arrival of the False Prophet, and God's wrath is AFTER the false prophet arrives. In fact, God's wrath is at the same time that Satan's wrath comes, after he is cast down. It is impossible by the word of God to separate God's wrath from Satan's wrath. Many men have tried, all have failed. The truth is, God is angry throughout the entire week.

 

By the way, the seals are NOT judgments and NOT a part of the 70th week; only the 7th seal marks the beginning of the week. You will find I go by what the scriptures tell us, not by what some people say. Many pretribbers say the rapture is Rev. 4:1. That theory is silly, and a terrible exegesis of scripture. Most pretribbers think the seals are judgments and a part of the week. That theory is just as faulty.

 

So WHERE does God's wrath begin? Right where John tells us, BEFORE the 70th week begins.

 

LAMAD

 

Yeah, we're just too far apart to have a meaningful discussion.  I'll say it again: Just be ready to face the persecution that you think you're going to escape.  Have your "re-think" triggers in place and keep watching.  Time will tell.

Re-think triggers include:

A seven year agreement...and you're still here.

Ten leaders destroy the world's capital...and you're still here.

Three leaders are destroyed by the false prophet supernaturally...and you're still here

The false prophet goes to the temple and declares himself to be God...and you're still here.

The "worship or die" ultimatum is issued...and you're still here.

A mark is required on the right hand or forehead to buy or sell anything...and you're still here

Any of those should trigger a re-think of your (or the pre-trib) position.  I'm not going to get twisted out of shape about the timing of the rapture.  Just be ready, as Christ told us to be.