Last Daze

1 hour ago, Selah7 said:

This would include the 144,ooo, yes?

These are those saved in the nick of time, right before the second coming?  

Chronologically, I see the 144k coming on the scene (Revelation 7) just before the seven plagues commence at the seventh seal (Revelation 8).

They are sealed for a purpose and based on that timing, I'd expect that they are bearing witness to the plagues as being God's judgment and encouraging repentance from worshiping the man of sin.  That's just a guess though.

I do expect that the 144k will be made immortal at the return of Christ. 

23 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

My understanding is that the mark of the beast is having Satan’s seal in your forehead; in other words, you are one of his because you’ve been deceived.  How many times does Jesus tell Christians not to be deceived?  Lots!  When Satan appears claiming to be God and a Christian believes him, bows down and worships him, he/she has, at that very moment, taken the mark of the beast.  It’s the great apostasy!

Agree.  Those who don't heed the many warnings of Jesus set themselves up to be deceived.  Those who take the mark and worship the image clearly align themselves with the man of sin but such an alignment is not irrevocable.

The man of sin claims to be God but the plagues will prove otherwise.  The first four plagues affect creation and show his impotence to do anything about it.  The question is who will see through the fraud and repent and who will persist in idolatry?  At some point, all who are going to repent will have done so but that is very late in the progression of the plagues, just before Jesus returns.

On 3/23/2022 at 2:04 PM, DeighAnn said:

Hopefully I am not going to far out on a limb to suggest that ANYONE who has taken the MARK aka the UNSAVED,  CAN'T BE AMONG THE GROUP to receive immortality.

I agree.  Revelation 20:4 bears that out.  Revelation 14:9-11 shows what happens to those who refuse to repent of the mark and image.  It's a common teaching to say that once a person takes the mark and worships the image that their fate is sealed and they base it solely on Revelation 14.  However, the verbs in that passage that are translated "receives" and "worships" are not in the past tense.  They are both in the present active tense and indicate a persistent activity.

Worshiping the man of sin through the mark and the image is idolatry.  According to Jesus, idolatry is a forgivable sin.

• "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven."  Matthew 12:31

Blasphemy of the Spirit is the persistent rejection of His conviction in favor of continuing in sin.  That's who Revelation 14:9-11 is describing. 

The seven plagues (trumpets / bowls) are judgments on those who were deceived into taking the mark and worshiping the image.  They are for the purpose of convicting those people of their idolatry that they might repent.  Those of the nations who do repent and stay repented until Jesus returns will inherit the earth.

28 minutes ago, debrakay said:

Why would there be any contentious conversations about such a topic for which there are no final or correct answers to and so many questions?  I understand the need and want to learn but I do not understand the need to argue or try to prove ones own personal point(s).  (This would be the peacemaker trait in me asking why.)

You're absolutely right.

I think it's because the study of eschatology is so complicated with all the imagery and symbolism and events that a person can spend hundreds, if not thousands, of hours trying to make sense of it.  That person will then probably want to share with others what they've learned.

So that person then takes to discussion forums like this one to share their thoughts and find out that other people see things differently.  It usually escalates into a contentious exchange when pride gets in the way and people start treating their view of eschatology as if it's a cardinal doctrine.

The approach I believe we should have is to recognize that it is the Holy Spirit that shows us the things to come.

• But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.  John 16:13

If we wish to engage in eschatological discussions, we need to be mindful of that truth.  If our understanding is from the Spirit, He will reveal that to the reader if that reader is open to the truth.  That's what He does.  It's not our place to persistently insist that we are right, no matter how "magnificently brilliant" we perceive ourselves to be.  None of us would have a clue if it weren't for revelation from the Holy Spirit.  Just lay it out there and let Him do His job.

5 hours ago, missmuffet said:

It is about all the needs of those of us  on Worthy who want to hear the literal true Word of God Josheb. We want to know the truth. God wants us to know the truth. 

One thing that I've noticed about proponents of Replacement Theology or Kingdom Now Theology or Dominion Theology is that there is no consistency in determining what should be taken literally and what should be taken spiritually, or taken both ways.  I suspect that in large part this is because scripture is read through the filter of the desired outcome.

I agree with the literal approach as well unless the context suggests otherwise.  In addition to that, all the pieces have to fit because things can be viewed differently.  It is a learning process and if it's not led by the Spirit of God, it'll wind up in a ditch.  Regardless of how we see things, prophecy will come about as God wills.

The theme that Jesus repeated often about His return:

• What I say to you I say to all: "Stay alert!" Mark 13:37

1 minute ago, George said:

True ... and it does fit with Zechariah's passage.   So like a LITERAL PHYSICAL return of Jesus ... like it says in the Bible! 

Agree.  And concerning the kingdom, there's no reason that both a literal kingdom of God and a spiritual kingdom of God can't both exist at the same time.  One does not preclude the other.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

The Return of Jesus

"4On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south"

This dovetails nicely with this:

• And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were watching, and a cloud took Him up, out of their sight.  And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, then behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them, and they said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.” Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mountain called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey away.   Acts 1: 9-12

The disciples watched Jesus ascend from the Mount of Olives.  The angles there said He would return in the same way He left which fits perfectly with the scripture you quoted from Zechariah.

There is no evidence that such an event has taken place.

9 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

Yes, because He gives us PEACE.  This too is a prophecy looking ahead to the Messiah/Christ and His kingdom.   He came physically to physical Zion and began preaching His gospel there...but His kingdom is from heavenly Zion, and that is where He is ruling from now.  The nations here is speaking of those Gentiles from the nations who would come to believe in Him.  Plowing and reaping spiritual harvests, instead of belonging to the kingdoms of this world that are constantly at war with one another.....and perhaps specifically alluding to their being no more war (enmity) between believing Israel and believing Gentiles, the dividing wall has been taken down.

Eph 2:14-17

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

I'll just take it for what it says.

1 hour ago, Heleadethme said:

First the natural, then the spiritual.  King David was already the physical type and shadow of Christ's kingdom to come.  Why would God want another weak natural kingdom after the perfect has come?

And how could that be possible anyway when judgment day and the physical realm being burned up happens at the coming of Christ?  Everyone in the lake of fire....who would be left to populate the earth.  2 Peter 3 says we're looking for a new heavens/earth wherein dwelleth righteousness, not the devil and not the unsaved.  1 Thessalonians 4 says we shall forever be with the Lord when He comes.... not back on this earth to be attacked by the devil and his army again!  So many contradictions with believing in a future millennial kingdom. ( We better not be telling any person or nation they still have a 1000 year chance to be saved after Jesus comes.)

Future thousand year reign just doesn't make sense and never did.  We have to start inventing scenarios that aren't in scripture in order to try and make it make sense....called wresting the scriptures.  I used to try, but never successfully.  Now it all clicks into place without any wresting needed, just in understanding that Jesus' rule and reign, His kingdom come on earth, within the believer, His church, is now.

The word which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

Now it will come about that
In the last days
The mountain of the house of the Lord
Will be established as the chief of the mountains,
And will be raised above the hills;
And all the nations will stream to it.
And many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let’s go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
So that He may teach us about His ways,
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For the law will go out from Zion
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And He will judge between the nations,
And will mediate for many peoples;
And they will beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning knives.
Nation will not lift up a sword against nation,
And never again will they learn war.  Isaiah 2:1-4

36 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

Luk 17:20

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Jhn 6:14-15

Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.

When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

This is one reason why Jesus was a stumbling block to the Jews.....because He and His kingdom were not what they were expecting.  They needed to have their minds renewed in order to understand.

That may be true but does that negate a future kingdom of God on earth?  Can't it be both.  Many things have both a spiritual and natural aspect to them.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Here, our Lord Jesus gives the blame for Abel's death, and the prophets' deaths to "THIS generation". It is clear that the years could not count for these Pharisees lived nearly 4,000 years after Abel. It is the NATURE of what is GENERATED. This makes it quite correct to say that the Pharisees who stirred the People to call for His death will "generate" the Jews living when Christ comes. It is ONE "generation (of vipers)". Men who "generate" the SERPENT-NATURE.

An interesting take.

57 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Well put.

I believe the better (and grammatically correct) interpretation is "that generation." Referring to the generation in which the fig tree is putting forth its leaves (verse 32).

That's another way to look at it.  I know a lot of people see it that way.

Who was Jesus talking to when He gave the Olivet discourse recorded in Matthew 24 and Mark 13?  Some say it was only relevant for the Jews. Others say it only pertained to the immediate audience and was fulfilled in the first century.  When Jesus said things like "when you see all these things", who was He addressing?  His immediate audience according to Mark 13:3 was Peter, James, John, and Andrew.  Did it only pertain to those four, or was there a larger audience intended?  If it was intended for a larger audience then who were they?  

The four disciples who Jesus was talking to are representative of both natural Israel and spiritual Israel.  The context determines the relevance.  Some things would take place in the first century and others would be fulfilled centuries later.

First century only

Many of those who believe in the first century fulfillment of the entire Olivet discourse rely on Jesus' use of the pronoun "you" to refer to those present at that time and His statement that "this generation  will not pass away until all these things take place" refers to the same. Here are two familiar prophecies that were given to those present but fulfilled much later:

• The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen; to him you shall listen.   Deuteronomy 18:15

This is Moses giving some final instructions to the children of Israel before they entered the promised land.  Did those Israelis who heard Moses' voice see Jesus?  No, he was referring to the nation.  And another one:

• Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and she will name Him Immanuel.  Isaiah 7:14

This was spoken to king Ahaz.  Was Ahaz around to see the virgin birth of Christ?

And when Jesus said: "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." He was referring to the nation Israel as the Greek word genea could be translated.  It could also mean a multitude of people living at a particular time but since some of the things Jesus talked about, like the great tribulation, are still future and everyone from the first century has passed away, it's apparent that He's referring to the natural lineage of Israel not passing away.

Natural Israel only

Some believe that the Olivet discourse is only relevant to natural Israel.  The main reason I expect is that those who are in Judea are told to flee to the mountains.  If that's all that was stated, I'd be inclined to agree but that's not all.  Jesus also says, "Then they will hand you over to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."  He did NOT say that they would be hated throughout the Middle East because they were Jews. The majority of natural Israel rejects Christ as the Messiah. Why would they be hated for His name? What He's saying is that around the world, people will be hated and killed because of the name of Jesus.  That verse applies to those who name the name of Christ, spiritual Israel, those who trust in Jesus.  It's describing the beginning of the great tribulation when the mark and image come about.

The abomination of desolation and the ensuing time of great tribulation are central to the Olivet discourse and the return of Christ, future events that will affect both natural and spiritual Israel, although differently.

• So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.  Revelation 12:17

Natural Israel is attacked first and flees to the wilderness.  War is then waged against spiritual Israel.  The Olivet discourse is relevant to both.  And to echo what Jesus said:

• What I say to you I say to all: "Stay alert!"  Mark 13:37

14 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

If it were possible: I take what Jesus said as; true born-again Christians will not be deceived. I don't want to start a discussion on OSAS, but are these people who apostatize truly born again?

Or does it mean that the elect will not ultimately be deceived?  When a person is born-again, do they instantly become impervious to deception?  I think the whole COVID event proves otherwise.  Some saw through it from the start.  Others took longer.  Some still haven't seen through it.

Just a thought.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

This was written more than 700 years earlier. It had nothing to do with audience. I bet there were plenty of people who thought the prophecy was of Isaiah or a host of others. But no.

It was an often-used manner of speaking.  The specific people being spoken to were not necessarily the ones to see the fulfillment.  It sometimes meant a larger group was the target audience.  For example:

• The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen; to him you shall listen.   Deuteronomy 18:15

This is Moses giving some final instructions to the children of Israel before they entered the promised land.  Did those Israelis who heard Moses' voice see Jesus?  No, he was referring to the nation.  And another one:

• Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and she will name Him Immanuel.  Isaiah 7:14

This was spoken to king Ahaz.  Did Ahaz see the birth of Christ?

To say that the Olivet discourse was directed only to those who heard Jesus' voice just doesn't make sense.  It, like the above verses and others, speak to a larger audience group.  To think otherwise would mean that the great tribulation, a time of global distress worse than the great flood would have taken place in the first century.  There's no evidence to support such a notion.  Oh, and by the way, the end of the age also occurred during the first century but nobody noticed?

It's interesting that the audience in Matthew 24 is representative of both natural Israel and spiritual Israel.

12 hours ago, Biblican said:

You can't ignore the fact that they are described as candlesticks. In the context of the book, candlesticks only have one meaning and that is, they are churches.

They are very closely related.  The churches have candlesticks.  They aren't candlesticks in and of themselves.  Consider the following from the letter to the church at Ephesus:

• Therefore, remember from where you have fallen, and repent, and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and I will remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.  Revelation 2:5

It's a minor distinction but this verse shows a subtle difference between the lampstand and the church.  The lampstand has to have oil in order to shine light.  That's the ministry of the church, to be a light to the world.  If the light has gone out and that ministry is not taking place, what's the need for the lampstand?

I don't disagree that the churches are seen as candlesticks.  Revelation 1:20 tells us as much.  But they are only useful candlesticks in as much as the Holy Spirit (oil) is present in their ministry and their light is shining.  Lampstands carry out the ministry of the Holy Spirit.  

Have you considered the possibility that there will be two individuals and two churches being witnesses during the great tribulation?  That would reflect the natural / spiritual paradigm we see throughout scripture, i.e. the two individuals (natural) and the two churches (spiritual), carrying out the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Concerning lampstands and olive trees:

• Then he said to me, “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel, saying, ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ says the Lord of armies.  Zechariah 4:6

The olive trees provide the oil.  The lampstands provide light.

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

And what about the intuition of a woman? It works. They don't apply logic or reasoning; they know it without knowing  it. Man is a fool to discount this strange ability.

I agree.  I think a woman's intuition is linked to her emotions.  Everyone has differing levels of emotion/intuition and intellect.  Apart from the Spirit, they're not very trustworthy.  The biggest recent example was COVID.  Very eye-opening that was.

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

So the interpretation of the living text of scripture cannot in every case be undertaken by standard methodology, nor understanding be reasoned out solely by logical presuppositions.

I've come to the same conclusion myself.  The way that human beings in general go about determining  truth (logical reasoning, experience, emotions, etc.) is inherently flawed.  In our society, we tend to equate high intellect with truth but if that were the case, we'd have no need for the Holy Spirit's guidance, just a few from MENSA. 

When it comes to rightly dividing the word of truth, spiritual discernment is a must, and it's a process.  Yes, our human faculties are engaged in the process but the Spirit of truth is integral to our understanding the word of truth.  It's not solely a logical exercise as you pointed out.

On 3/14/2022 at 6:02 AM, Selah7 said:

Sorry for interrupting, Diaste and Josheb …. Hmmm… . I’m meditating upon these verses of wisdom (listed below) and considering what I have learned from past research, that Satan will deceive many in the days before the end of this age.  My understanding is that these latter days will be a time of apostasy—a spiritual deception where people will believe the antichrist (Satan) is God. 

Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 

- 1 Corinthians 3:16-17

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

- 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 

I tend to agree with you.  Consider the following verse:

• Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses.  Matthew 23:1-2

Was there a literal "chair of Moses?"  No.  It's a reference to authority.  The Satan-possessed man of sin claims to be God and assumes a position of authority, even over the church.  Those with spiritual discernment will reject his authority, even if it costs them their lives.

9 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Thank you Last Daze, your are always so polite and gracious.

Now just trying to understand your thinking here. If the rapture is before the trib, do you think you will go or will you be looking to go through the trib.?

It's my understanding that people can't choose when they'll be raptured.  Whenever the resurrection / rapture takes place at the last trumpet on the last day, I will be in it because I am Christ's.

4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

So good to have the context. And we know that the Body of Christ was not revealed in past times, (Eph. 3: 5) so God is talking to His people ISRAEL there.

And going back to the beginning of the chapter we see `this song shall be sung in the land of JUDAH. ` (Isa. 26: 1)

Thus we understand the God is telling His people of the nation of Israel to `hide,` (as He did in Matt. 24: 15 - 20). 

We, the Body of Christ will have gone to our eternal inheritance with Christ on His throne in glory, before the tribulation starts, before God`s wrath is poured out on the rebellious, before the judgments begin.

I know that's what you think.

As I've mentioned before I don't want to get into natural vs. spiritual Israel and who "God's people" are.

On 3/10/2022 at 9:47 AM, Last Daze said:

I realize that what one person deems essential, another may not, and vice-versa.  The role that "Israel" plays in eschatology is often debated, usually as it pertains to the spiritual or natural understanding of the term.  I'm not a proponent of separating OT believers from NT believers as some dispensationalists are.  The one passage that I see as addressing both natural and spiritual Israel is found in Revelation 12.

• So the dragon was enraged with the woman [natural], and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus [spiritual].  Revelation 12:17

 

 

On 3/12/2022 at 7:25 AM, Last Daze said:

It certainly has the potential to turn into a cat-herding thread.

I intentionally left out any talk of the rapture, Babylon, the mark & image, Israel, the temple, the 70th week, etc. because those kinds of things will be what they are.  Our understanding of those kinds of things will change as time goes on and we reconcile our perceptions with what's taking place.

Contrast those things with the great tribulation.  Tribulation for the believer is nothing new.  It may have varied from century to century and location to location as the gospel was being spread but Jesus tells us that before His return, there will be a time of global, unprecedented tribulation associated with the abomination of desolation (man of sin).  This will affect every believer alive at that time.  We can't control how the various aspects of prophecy are going to unfold but we can control our response to persecution.  That's essential to each of us individually.

Suffice it to say we just disagree.  Regardless, we'll fare well as our hope is in Christ.

6 hours ago, Keras said:

So what we need to do is to figure out the correct sequence of events and how they are caused. This will enable us to stand firm as dramatic things occur and then to stand before Jesus, having proved our faith in Him and our trust in His protection.

When nature is affected by the first four plagues, fresh water, the seas, and especially the sun, moon, and stars, it is a demonstration of the man of sin's impotence when it comes to controlling nature.  If he were God as he claims to be, he should be able to remedy the plagues, but he can't.

So, yes, if we see the alterations in the sun, moon and stars, know that God is exposing the man of sin as a fraud, among other things.

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

So do you see yourself in this scripture?

`For behold, the LORD comes out of His place to PUNISH THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH for their iniquity;....` (Isa. 26: 21) 

Let's give it some context:

Come, my people, enter your rooms
And close your doors behind you;
Hide for a little while
Until indignation runs its course.
For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their wrongdoing;
And the earth will reveal her bloodshed
And will no longer cover her slain.  Isaiah 26:20-21

God's people will shelter in place.  Then He punishes the wicked. 

Jesus descends to the clouds, makes immortal those who are His at the last trumpet on the last day.  Then the wicked are punished.

3 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Just one.

Nope. Two.  One states 12.  The other infers 12.  I'm pretty sure you knew that.

• He also told it to his father as well as to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have had? Am I and your mother and your brothers actually going to come to bow down to the ground before you?”  Genesis 37:10

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

BLB reference shows there are 14 Bible verses that use the words "sun, moon, and stars." So I see no reason to pick out the one in Genesis as uniquely relevant to Rev. 12.

How many of those 14 verses use sun, moon, and 12 stars?