Last Daze

 

 

you sure use that word wrong a lot

 

 

I know. It is sad. But there is a good reason; people continue to write things against the word of God. that makes what they write WRONG. Example here was writing that the time the heaven and earth dissolve is the very same time as the 7th angel. Such a theory is preposterous. I could have said WRONG about his take on the Two Witnesses. But I let that go.

 

Occasionally I will write "good job," when someone gets something right.

 

LAMAD

 

With end times prophecy being largely symbolic and multifaceted, have you ever considered the possibility that you might be wrong?  No need to answer that in this thread because we all know how we "should" respond to that question.  Answer that question in the way that you engage in discussion. 

I think our limited understanding of "time" in the context of eternity works against us.  A lot of things were finished before the foundation of the world.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The first beast and second beast are ages apart. The first beast is religious system dating back from the old covenant times and the second beast that carries on with the first beast's legacy and is christian in appearance (lamb like).

The mark of the beast is the first beast's mark and it is he that is being worshipped and not the second beast. The second beast is an advocate on behalf of the first beast. The first beast is a symbol of Babylon, whereas the second beast is a continuation of the fallen first century Babylon religious system as now the global mystery Babylon religion that encompasses the whole world.

how do you throw the second beast and the false prophet in the fire if the beast is a religious system The beast has to be some kind of entity or we couldn't throw it into the fire.

It was a religious entity that existed even during the time of the prophets of the Old Testament.

Matthew 23:37

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

So to be that old and be an entity it must be a fallen angel?  I really don't think you can throw an abstraction like religion into the lake of fire.  The lake of fire is for Satan and his angels.  The goats who follow Satan will be there too.  Babylon is synonymous with rebellion against God.

Babylon is a religious system because it is labeled a harlot. To be called a harlot the religious system must have had at one time a husband, before her husband disowned her because of her rejecting him.

 

And yet "Babylon the great wh**e is a CITY - in fact the city of Jerusalem. How can this be? Was John wrong?  During the last half of the future 70th week the Beast and False Prophet will be deceiving the entire world (except for those written in heaven) - FROM THE CITY OF JERUSALEM! Believe it, for it is true. Of course Jerusalem the city, mystery "Babalon the Great" used to be the city of Soloman's temple, where the Queen of Sheba came and left amazed. But during the last half of the 70th week, the greatest deception every presented in the world will come from this very same city of God and deceive the entire world save a few who believe.

 

LAMAD

 

Babylon the city is destroyed before the false prophet comes on the scene, just prior to the final 3.5 years.

 

Scripture and verse for this? Or did you just pull it out of your hat? It reads like nonsense, not scripture.

 

oh! Perhaps you are reading prophecy as if it had already happened?

 

LAMAD

 

Actually there are many passages and concepts to be understood to get to that point.  I would go into detail if I thought there was a willingness to hear it rather than it just being used as fodder for insults.  The gist is:

• The evil angel (beast from the sea) comes up out of the abyss and forms a multinational government (feet of iron and clay)
• He uses that government, and the 10 leaders to set up the infrastructure for the mark
• The 10 leaders (there's only one set of 10 leaders) start their reign by destroying the world's capital (Babylon).  They impose their authority by economic control and probably plan to reign for a long time but....
• The false prophet hijacks their system right away, limiting their time as kings to about an hour.
• The ten leaders realize they've been had...three of them decide to do something about it and come against the false prophet with an overwhelming military force (mortally wounded head, certain death to his kingdom) but wait...
• The false prophet is empowered by the evil angel, who has also received Satan's power, throne, and great authority.  He calls fire down from heaven and wipes out the forces brought to bear against him.  The mortal wound is healed.  Peace is restored. The world is amazed.
• Thus begins the false prophet's authority to act (with signs and wonders) for 42 months.

Go ahead and call in nonsense if that makes you feel better but I can support all of those ideas with scripture and its what makes the most sense to me...at this point in time.

 

Sorry, but at this point in time, if there were only one (ten,) there would now be only 7. Did you forget that the Beast or man of sin will take down three of the ten? That leaves 7. Does it not say that he becomes the 8th? This is why I say there is a DIFFERENT Ten that throw in with him at the end, to destroy Israel and Jerusalem.

 

You are right, I don't agree with much you wrote there.

 

LAMAD

 

The 8th is in the context of the seven head in Rev 17:10-11.  Not the 10 horns.  Context.  Remember context?  There is one set of ten horns.

• The little horn in Daniel 7 that came up among the ten horns who became a large horn is the false prophet.  His change in size reflects his change in power status after he destroys the three rebel kings supernaturally.
• The ten horns as described in Rev 17 give their kingdom to the beast from the sea and reign with him for one hour.  The beast from the sea, with seven heads and ten horns, is a fallen angel, not the false prophet.

This is a good example of the importance of identifying who's who.  If you see the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns (Rev 17) as being the same as the little horn turned big (Dan 7) then then, yes, there's a problem.  The answer is not in creating a new set of ten horns but in correctly identifying who is who.

I believe your "second set of 10 horns" arises from trying to resolve the apparent conflict in these two passages.

This is how I see it and why.  I'm not looking for people to agree with me.  I'm looking to make sense of prophetic scripture, not be dogmatic about it.  This is what makes the most sense to me...at this point in time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The first beast and second beast are ages apart. The first beast is religious system dating back from the old covenant times and the second beast that carries on with the first beast's legacy and is christian in appearance (lamb like).

The mark of the beast is the first beast's mark and it is he that is being worshipped and not the second beast. The second beast is an advocate on behalf of the first beast. The first beast is a symbol of Babylon, whereas the second beast is a continuation of the fallen first century Babylon religious system as now the global mystery Babylon religion that encompasses the whole world.

how do you throw the second beast and the false prophet in the fire if the beast is a religious system The beast has to be some kind of entity or we couldn't throw it into the fire.

It was a religious entity that existed even during the time of the prophets of the Old Testament.

Matthew 23:37

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

So to be that old and be an entity it must be a fallen angel?  I really don't think you can throw an abstraction like religion into the lake of fire.  The lake of fire is for Satan and his angels.  The goats who follow Satan will be there too.  Babylon is synonymous with rebellion against God.

Babylon is a religious system because it is labeled a harlot. To be called a harlot the religious system must have had at one time a husband, before her husband disowned her because of her rejecting him.

 

And yet "Babylon the great wh**e is a CITY - in fact the city of Jerusalem. How can this be? Was John wrong?  During the last half of the future 70th week the Beast and False Prophet will be deceiving the entire world (except for those written in heaven) - FROM THE CITY OF JERUSALEM! Believe it, for it is true. Of course Jerusalem the city, mystery "Babalon the Great" used to be the city of Soloman's temple, where the Queen of Sheba came and left amazed. But during the last half of the 70th week, the greatest deception every presented in the world will come from this very same city of God and deceive the entire world save a few who believe.

 

LAMAD

 

Babylon the city is destroyed before the false prophet comes on the scene, just prior to the final 3.5 years.

 

Scripture and verse for this? Or did you just pull it out of your hat? It reads like nonsense, not scripture.

 

oh! Perhaps you are reading prophecy as if it had already happened?

 

LAMAD

 

Actually there are many passages and concepts to be understood to get to that point.  I would go into detail if I thought there was a willingness to hear it rather than it just being used as fodder for insults.  The gist is:

• The evil angel (beast from the sea) comes up out of the abyss and forms a multinational government (feet of iron and clay)
• He uses that government, and the 10 leaders to set up the infrastructure for the mark
• The 10 leaders (there's only one set of 10 leaders) start their reign by destroying the world's capital (Babylon).  They impose their authority by economic control and probably plan to reign for a long time but....
• The false prophet hijacks their system right away, limiting their time as kings to about an hour.
• The ten leaders realize they've been had...three of them decide to do something about it and come against the false prophet with an overwhelming military force (mortally wounded head, certain death to his kingdom) but wait...
• The false prophet is empowered by the evil angel, who has also received Satan's power, throne, and great authority.  He calls fire down from heaven and wipes out the forces brought to bear against him.  The mortal wound is healed.  Peace is restored. The world is amazed.
• Thus begins the false prophet's authority to act (with signs and wonders) for 42 months.

Go ahead and call in nonsense if that makes you feel better but I can support all of those ideas with scripture and its what makes the most sense to me...at this point in time.

 

 

 

 

Salty

 

That "mother" idea is another symbol being used in Revelation by our Lord Jesus. When the coming Antichrist sets up false idol worship there at Jerusalem specifically, the very place where our Heavenly Father has chosen to put His Name there, forever, then that "abomination of desolation" event there will symbolically make Jerusalem, the "mother" idea, symbolically becoming the Babylon of old and everything false it once represented.

 

 

 

Interesting.....

 

So the parental symbolism in which Jerusalem has been referred to as a daughter of a whore, we should ignore that type of interpretation when applying it to Mother of Whores as an originator who gives birth to daughter whores? I'm still yet to hear on what grounds we should dismiss this type of concept?

 

AS for your concept its very puzzling...so lets have a look see

 

In Revelations John sees a woman riding a beast, with a label slapped on her forehead " Babylon - Mother of Whores" right? Then we have the antichrist who walks on in and pops up an Idol, right?

 

Point Number 1. Now does this woman ride the beast event appear at the exact same time the Antichrist event of the very moment he sets up his "abomination of desolation" happen simultaneously?

 

Or

 

Point Number 2. Does the woman riding the beast come first and then the Antichrist?

 

Because if Israel is the Mother of all whores point number 1 would mean Israel doesnt exist at this very time, she will only exist at the same time the Antichrist sets up his lovely event to be called Mother of Whores? After all you did say the following:-

 

then that "abomination of desolation" event there will symbolically make Jerusalem, the "mother" idea, symbolically becoming the Babylon 

 

Now if we look at Point number 2 Israel (Woman riding the beast) today is the mother of All whores, God willed 1948 the Mother of All whores, then later the Antichrist comes sets up his Idol - So does Israel get slapped with 2 labels now? Babylon - Mother of Whores v2? Babylon - Mother Mother of Whores? after all you did say the following; - 

 

then that "abomination of desolation" event there will symbolically make Jerusalem, the "mother" idea, symbolically becoming the Babylon 

 

 

Jerusalem will be mystery "babylon the Great" ONLY during the last half of the week, when the Beast and False Prophet are deceiving the entire world.

 

LAMAD

 

 

The ten leaders destroy Babylon the city when they rise to power.  Then the false prophet rises to power.  Then believers are martyred.  Then God's wrath is brought to bear on those who continue in rebellion against God which is Babylon the religion of ungodliness.  Babylon's ultimate end is when Christ returns (seventh trumpet / vial).  Then Christ rules with a rod of iron.

 

Sorry, your "then"s are all out of whack. Did you not read that the ten throw in with the Beast for "one hour?" And that one hour is VERY LATE in the 70th week. The false prophet shows up shortly after the midpoint. Your timing is OFF. And John TELLS US when God's wrath begins - WAY BACK at the 6th seal, before the 70th week begins. The ENTIRE 70th WEEK is God's wrath. Finally, JESUS does NOT RETURN at the 7th vial that ends the week. That is  false doctrine. did you not read chapters 17, 18, and much of 19 that must take place before Jesus returns?

 

LAMAD

 

First off, its not doctrine.  Its an interpretation.  I don't try and pass it off as unchangeable truth.  I realize that I could be wrong, but its what makes the most sense to me.  I can say with a high degree of confidence that none of us has it all figured out.  That being said...

Did you not read where the false prophet pulls three of the horns out by their roots?  Sounds more like a throw-down than a throw-in to me.  The beast is an evil angel and the 10 are likely clueless that they are serving his (ultimately God's) purpose.  The beast of Rev 13:1 and the little horn of Daniel 7 are not the same.

"...While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it.  Daniel 7:8

The seventh trumpet and vial occur in quick succession.  The trumpet announces the return of our Lord and the vial being poured out indicates the completion thereof.  The final judgment of Babylon happens during the seventh trumpet / vial return of Christ.

When an artist paints a painting, it starts as an outline and then colors are added as the artist sees fit, same as when when a house is built.  The framework goes up first, then other components are added to make the house complete.  In the same way, there are end time prophecies throughout the Bible, some of which are a framework or outline and others add color or details to other prophecies.  Chronology is only relevant in as much as it makes sense such i.e. 1st seal, 2nd seal....1st trumpet, 2nd trumpet....1st vial, 2nd vial...  The fact that something is written in Revelation 17 does not mean that it can't add color to something or help fill in the blanks in say chapter 13.  Context is king.  Take things out of context and you start drifting into irrelevance.

Prophecy and dogma don't get along.

The NASB and several other translations use the singular "kingdom": “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ"

Its a statement indicating that Christ now rules the earth.  It's the world that becomes His and it's where He establishes His kingdom.  Former kingdoms are crushed.  Not a trace is found of them.  Beast and false prophet...lake of fire.  Satan...abyss.  The earth becomes Christ's domain at the seventh trumpet / vial when He returns.  That's the gist of Rev 11:15.

I can't imagine that Jesus would be the least bit interested in the handiwork of Satan and his minions (kingdoms of this world).

 

 

 

 

 

The first beast and second beast are ages apart. The first beast is religious system dating back from the old covenant times and the second beast that carries on with the first beast's legacy and is christian in appearance (lamb like).

The mark of the beast is the first beast's mark and it is he that is being worshipped and not the second beast. The second beast is an advocate on behalf of the first beast. The first beast is a symbol of Babylon, whereas the second beast is a continuation of the fallen first century Babylon religious system as now the global mystery Babylon religion that encompasses the whole world.

how do you throw the second beast and the false prophet in the fire if the beast is a religious system The beast has to be some kind of entity or we couldn't throw it into the fire.

It was a religious entity that existed even during the time of the prophets of the Old Testament.

Matthew 23:37

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

So to be that old and be an entity it must be a fallen angel?  I really don't think you can throw an abstraction like religion into the lake of fire.  The lake of fire is for Satan and his angels.  The goats who follow Satan will be there too.  Babylon is synonymous with rebellion against God.

Babylon is a religious system because it is labeled a harlot. To be called a harlot the religious system must have had at one time a husband, before her husband disowned her because of her rejecting him.

 

And yet "Babylon the great wh**e is a CITY - in fact the city of Jerusalem. How can this be? Was John wrong?  During the last half of the future 70th week the Beast and False Prophet will be deceiving the entire world (except for those written in heaven) - FROM THE CITY OF JERUSALEM! Believe it, for it is true. Of course Jerusalem the city, mystery "Babalon the Great" used to be the city of Soloman's temple, where the Queen of Sheba came and left amazed. But during the last half of the 70th week, the greatest deception every presented in the world will come from this very same city of God and deceive the entire world save a few who believe.

 

LAMAD

 

Babylon the city is destroyed before the false prophet comes on the scene, just prior to the final 3.5 years.

 

 

Salty

 

That "mother" idea is another symbol being used in Revelation by our Lord Jesus. When the coming Antichrist sets up false idol worship there at Jerusalem specifically, the very place where our Heavenly Father has chosen to put His Name there, forever, then that "abomination of desolation" event there will symbolically make Jerusalem, the "mother" idea, symbolically becoming the Babylon of old and everything false it once represented.

 

 

 

Interesting.....

 

So the parental symbolism in which Jerusalem has been referred to as a daughter of a whore, we should ignore that type of interpretation when applying it to Mother of Whores as an originator who gives birth to daughter whores? I'm still yet to hear on what grounds we should dismiss this type of concept?

 

AS for your concept its very puzzling...so lets have a look see

 

In Revelations John sees a woman riding a beast, with a label slapped on her forehead " Babylon - Mother of Whores" right? Then we have the antichrist who walks on in and pops up an Idol, right?

 

Point Number 1. Now does this woman ride the beast event appear at the exact same time the Antichrist event of the very moment he sets up his "abomination of desolation" happen simultaneously?

 

Or

 

Point Number 2. Does the woman riding the beast come first and then the Antichrist?

 

Because if Israel is the Mother of all whores point number 1 would mean Israel doesnt exist at this very time, she will only exist at the same time the Antichrist sets up his lovely event to be called Mother of Whores? After all you did say the following:-

 

then that "abomination of desolation" event there will symbolically make Jerusalem, the "mother" idea, symbolically becoming the Babylon 

 

Now if we look at Point number 2 Israel (Woman riding the beast) today is the mother of All whores, God willed 1948 the Mother of All whores, then later the Antichrist comes sets up his Idol - So does Israel get slapped with 2 labels now? Babylon - Mother of Whores v2? Babylon - Mother Mother of Whores? after all you did say the following; - 

 

then that "abomination of desolation" event there will symbolically make Jerusalem, the "mother" idea, symbolically becoming the Babylon 

 

 

Jerusalem will be mystery "babylon the Great" ONLY during the last half of the week, when the Beast and False Prophet are deceiving the entire world.

 

LAMAD

 

The ten leaders destroy Babylon the city when they rise to power.  Then the false prophet rises to power.  Then believers are martyred.  Then God's wrath is brought to bear on those who continue in rebellion against God which is Babylon the religion of ungodliness.  Babylon's ultimate end is when Christ returns (seventh trumpet / vial).  Then Christ rules with a rod of iron.

 

 

Salty

 

No, of course Israel, God's people, are not the originators of false idols nor false worship of anything. That began in ancient Sumer-Babylon with the one called Sargon, the first king there. False worship was then transferred to the pagan kingdoms of old from there.

 

But what did our Heavenly Father call His people when 'they'... fell away from Him to do that false worship? He associated pagan titles with them, and the idea of spiritual harlotry, just as He did with Jerusalem in the timing of Rev.11:8, so don't expect me to get away from that point in God's Word.

 

 

So if Israel is not the originators of false idol worship, then they clearly cant be the mother of whores? A mother gives birth not so? 

 

But its clear your position then is different in the concept of the word "mother" ... the concept then must be understood in the following example:- I am going to have the "mother" of ALL BBQ's this weekend or I'm going to the "mother" of ALL concerts or I'm going to watch the "mother" of all games.

 

Now if I am to take that concept and apply it to Israel as the Mother of all false worship, then Israel will need to be placed or expand on its history of false worship, like burning babies to a false god and Sexual acts to a false god....Can you really see Israel doing that in the future? After all it needs to be the "mother" of all false worship...burning babies and sexual acts and expand on that. 

 

When the Beast and False prophet get their image set up and the mark, and the false miracles, the deception coming from Jerusalem will be the "mother" of all deceptions. It will be at a level never seen on earth before. It will be so convincing that the entire world will be deceived - all but those whose names are written in heaven.

 

Lamad

 

Only the false prophet will be seen though.  Don't expect a human duo.  The beast is a fallen angel that comes up out of the abyss.  The abyss is only used in the context of demons or fallen angels, not humans.

But, yes, the deception level will be maxxed out..."all the deception of wickedness" I believe is the phrase.

 

 

Rev.10

⁷ But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

You really should learn what this mystery is. But then, it is a mystery!

 

There are some clues as to what this mystery is. Take, for example, the fact that Satan is cast down right after the 7th trumpet. Take, for example, the fact that the kingdoms of the world are transferred from Satan to Jesus.

 

LAMAD

 

 

You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them.  Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. Daniel 2:34-35

...it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.  Daniel 2:44

It sounds more like a crushing than a transference to me.

We cannot be oriented before The risen Lord unless we die and inherit the Holy Spirit body of an angel.

 

 

 

 

 

The first beast and second beast are ages apart. The first beast is religious system dating back from the old covenant times and the second beast that carries on with the first beast's legacy and is christian in appearance (lamb like).

The mark of the beast is the first beast's mark and it is he that is being worshipped and not the second beast. The second beast is an advocate on behalf of the first beast. The first beast is a symbol of Babylon, whereas the second beast is a continuation of the fallen first century Babylon religious system as now the global mystery Babylon religion that encompasses the whole world.

how do you throw the second beast and the false prophet in the fire if the beast is a religious system The beast has to be some kind of entity or we couldn't throw it into the fire.

It was a religious entity that existed even during the time of the prophets of the Old Testament.

Matthew 23:37

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

So to be that old and be an entity it must be a fallen angel?  I really don't think you can throw an abstraction like religion into the lake of fire.  The lake of fire is for Satan and his angels.  The goats who follow Satan will be there too.  Babylon is synonymous with rebellion against God.

Babylon is a religious system because it is labeled a harlot. To be called a harlot the religious system must have had at one time a husband, before her husband disowned her because of her rejecting him.

 

You either worship God, or you don't.  When you don't worship God, the label that you put on your "religion" is irrelevant because it all falls under the umbrella of "Babylon", or ungodliness, or rebellion against God.  The moniker "Babylon" comes from a city that was steeped in ungodliness.

The activities that people engage in, or don't engage in (their worship) is a reflection of what they believe in.  I guess you could call Babylon the religion of ungodliness if you need to rename it to be a "religion" but it goes back much further than the OT prophets:

Rev 18:24 "And in her (Babylon) was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.”

No America is no Babylon, because Babylon was declared as fallen in the first century. It is a religious system and not a state per say. It is a religious system that existed way back from the old covenant times and received its head wound in 70 AD by the destruction of the temple. Today the continuation of that religious practice is being headed by the global mystery Babylon religious system that is lamb like, meaning christian in appearance.

America is not an advocate to the first beast, but serves the purpose of the global mystery Babylon religious system that has taken over the world by countless wars, this global mystery Babylon religious system is the second beast that continued where the first beast left of from.

Your chronology seems a bit whacked.  Compare when Revelation was written with what you're saying.  Babylon is synonymous with rebellion against God or ungodliness.  Its symbolized by a harlot, not a beast or beasts.

 

 

The first beast and second beast are ages apart. The first beast is religious system dating back from the old covenant times and the second beast that carries on with the first beast's legacy and is christian in appearance (lamb like).

The mark of the beast is the first beast's mark and it is he that is being worshipped and not the second beast. The second beast is an advocate on behalf of the first beast. The first beast is a symbol of Babylon, whereas the second beast is a continuation of the fallen first century Babylon religious system as now the global mystery Babylon religion that encompasses the whole world.

how do you throw the second beast and the false prophet in the fire if the beast is a religious system The beast has to be some kind of entity or we couldn't throw it into the fire.

It was a religious entity that existed even during the time of the prophets of the Old Testament.

Matthew 23:37

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

 

So to be that old and be an entity it must be a fallen angel?  I really don't think you can throw an abstraction like religion into the lake of fire.  The lake of fire is for Satan and his angels.  The goats who follow Satan will be there too.  Babylon is synonymous with rebellion against God.

 

 

 

See Luke 21. The "day of vengeance" of Isa.61:2 is for Christ's second coming on the Day of The Lord to end this present world.

 

Because the 70 weeks prophecy is especially given about Jerusalem and her people, that must be applied to the situation in Jerusalem. There's a coming false worship there for the end prior to our Lord Jesus' return, which is also what that 70 weeks prophecy is about. So 'iniquity' in Jerusalem will not be atoned for until Jesus' return.

 

 

So you're saying that "to make atonement for iniquity", in the context of the 70 weeks prophecy, applies to the Jews and Jerusalem and is not the same as Christ's atonement on the cross.  That makes sense to me.

 

 

That's right. See the first part of the Dan.9:24 verse.

 

I do agree Salty.  I wasn't being sarcastic.  Things must be understood in context...like Rev 13:1 and 17:1

 

 

Look, this is simple 5th grade arithmetic.  Suppose you start walking from a point exactly 3 1/2 miles East of the center of  New York city with your pet turtle, and your destination is  Miami OK - according to an online map, 1260 miles away.  Suppose you cover only one mile a day (remember your pet turtle). Therefore your trip  will take 1260 days. You  will testify to everyone you meet that the Kingdom of God on earth is at hand. Now, suppose you begin that trip just 3 1/2 days before the 7th trumpet will sound, marking THE EXACT MIDPOINT of the week.. You would arrive in Miami OK just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial would be poured out.

 

Who, outside of Oklahoma, has even heard of Miami, OK?  And when you read it, you should pronounce it my-am-uh.  Just struck me as an odd destination, that's all.

 

I wanted to start at New York City. It took some time to find a city exactly 1260 miles away!

 

LAMAD

 

That's funny that it wound up being there.

 

 

 

Maybe its just my need to put things where they belong...but is there a prophetic implication to all of this?

If you take Dan 9's 69th week to end with the arrival of the Messiah in Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, then it's useful to know what day of the week Passover could be to see which years are possible candidates for the cruxifiction.

 

 

 

 

Maybe its just my need to put things where they belong...but is there a prophetic implication to all of this?

 

I would say that there was a prophetic significance to the timing.

 

God gave Israel certain high holidays. The timing of Jesus death, and resurrection from the dead, were on significant days coinciding to certain spring holy days. Jesus death and resurrection were forshadowed by the meanings of those holy days. So, as the NT says, all of the law and prophets spoke of Jesus. In this case, the law is speaking and pointing to Jesus.

 

While Jesus fulfilled the spring holy days, the fall holy days are as of yet, unfilfilled, but will be.

 

Jesus died on Passover.

Jesus was resurrected on the day of the first fruits wave offering and the beginning of the counting of the omer.

The Holy Spirit was given on the feast of first fruits.

 

 

What exactly is the significance for each of the days...Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.  If it was Wednesday, what does that mean?  Likewise Thursday and Friday.  I haven't heard of this being a prophetic (future events) topic before. 

 

 

Ok, I don't see any significance to Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. The significance was Passover, and the first fruits wave offering. Plus the prophesy about 3 days. The Hebrew calendar is entirely different then the Gregorian calendar so the where Passover lands in relationship with the first fruits wave offering will vary (based on the first fruits wave offering being the day after the weekly sabbath).  

 

As has already been discussed, Hebrew days begin at sunset and end at sunset. They are numbered, not named. So, Wednesday roughly is day 4. Day 4 to Day 1 (Sunday) is too many days to fit the three days. No matter how it is calculated, I can not come up with 3 days from a day 4 crucifixion. I can from either day 5 (roughly Thursday) or day 6 (roughly Friday).   

 

No problems with any of that.  I'm just curious as to what the takeaway is...maybe the false prophet enters the temple on a Saturday?  I guess I'm just not getting it.

 

 

If you take Dan 9's 69th week to end with the arrival of the Messiah in Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, then it's useful to know what day of the week Passover could be to see which years are possible candidates for the cruxifiction.

 

What exactly is the significance for each of the days...Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.  If it was Wednesday, what does that mean?  Likewise Thursday and Friday.  I haven't heard of this being a prophetic (future events) topic before.

Seeing exactly how past prophecy is fulfilled is useful to judge how seriously and literally we should take the Bible. If Christ fulfilled Dan 9's 69th week prophecy *to the very day* that'd really be something! wouldn't it? By analyzing which days the prophecy could begin, and which days the prophecy could have been fulfilled, you get two handfuls of days separated by various intervals. It so happens (!) that one of the possible start dates is exactly 69 heptads/173880 days before one of the possible fulfillment days. Realizing that "Good Friday" is just a tradition is helpful in culling out possible fulfillment dates, as we look at calendars from 28-34 AD.

 

I agree with the amazing, perfect accuracy of the details of prophecy, fulfilled and unfulfilled (I guess it was all unfulfilled at the time it was given).  I think we all do.  I just don't understand the relevance that the day of the week of Jesus' crucifixion has on future events.  I haven't heard anyone draw any conclusions, or support their understanding of end times prophecy, based on it.  Is there more to it than just establishing the accuracy of a historic event?  Inquiring minds just want to know.

 

Maybe its just my need to put things where they belong...but is there a prophetic implication to all of this?

If you take Dan 9's 69th week to end with the arrival of the Messiah in Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, then it's useful to know what day of the week Passover could be to see which years are possible candidates for the cruxifiction.

 

 

Maybe its just my need to put things where they belong...but is there a prophetic implication to all of this?

 

I would say that there was a prophetic significance to the timing.

 

God gave Israel certain high holidays. The timing of Jesus death, and resurrection from the dead, were on significant days coinciding to certain spring holy days. Jesus death and resurrection were forshadowed by the meanings of those holy days. So, as the NT says, all of the law and prophets spoke of Jesus. In this case, the law is speaking and pointing to Jesus.

 

While Jesus fulfilled the spring holy days, the fall holy days are as of yet, unfilfilled, but will be.

 

Jesus died on Passover.

Jesus was resurrected on the day of the first fruits wave offering and the beginning of the counting of the omer.

The Holy Spirit was given on the feast of first fruits.

 

What exactly is the significance for each of the days...Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.  If it was Wednesday, what does that mean?  Likewise Thursday and Friday.  I haven't heard of this being a prophetic (future events) topic before. 

Look, this is simple 5th grade arithmetic.  Suppose you start walking from a point exactly 3 1/2 miles East of the center of  New York city with your pet turtle, and your destination is  Miami OK - according to an online map, 1260 miles away.  Suppose you cover only one mile a day (remember your pet turtle). Therefore your trip  will take 1260 days. You  will testify to everyone you meet that the Kingdom of God on earth is at hand. Now, suppose you begin that trip just 3 1/2 days before the 7th trumpet will sound, marking THE EXACT MIDPOINT of the week.. You would arrive in Miami OK just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial would be poured out.

Who, outside of Oklahoma, has even heard of Miami, OK?  And when you read it, you should pronounce it my-am-uh.  Just struck me as an odd destination, that's all.

Maybe its just my need to put things where they belong...but is there a prophetic implication to all of this?

 

That's a good point which brings up the natural question...who is it, do you think, that will proclaim the day of vengeance of our God?  Will it be Jesus as he returns, is it the two witnesses, or the church, or maybe all?  Just curious as to thoughts on it.

 

 

I'd like some thoughts as well on "to make atonement for iniquity" as being part of what the 70 weeks will accomplish.  I see this as being fulfilled in Christ's death, which, happened after the 62 weeks, if I understand it right.  I'm trying to reconcile this with a future seven year covenant.  Could it be that since the coming of the Messiah took place in the 62 weeks that that in itself is sufficient to cover what he would accomplish, and that His death doesn't necessarily have to fall within the 70 weeks?  Thoughts?

 

 

See Luke 21. The "day of vengeance" of Isa.61:2 is for Christ's second coming on the Day of The Lord to end this present world.

 

Because the 70 weeks prophecy is especially given about Jerusalem and her people, that must be applied to the situation in Jerusalem. There's a coming false worship there for the end prior to our Lord Jesus' return, which is also what that 70 weeks prophecy is about. So 'iniquity' in Jerusalem will not be atoned for until Jesus' return.

 

So you're saying that "to make atonement for iniquity", in the context of the 70 weeks prophecy, applies to the Jews and Jerusalem and is not the same as Christ's atonement on the cross.  That makes sense to me.

 

The insertion of the gaps is not biblical. The prophecy ends in 34 AD. Now if what i said is not true, the Bible should not continue as if the prophecy was true. In other words the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. Then the tribulation started and the amount of christians slaughtered amounted to 500 million. The tribulation extended DURING the dark ages. (Christians who refused to apostasize christianity were destroyed as Daniel 7:25 said the little horn would make war with the saints). Then the teibulation started to end in 1776 AD when USA opened its doors to the oppressed christians. They fled there. Directly after that after 4 years as Jesus said "immediately after the tribulation, the sun shall be darkened". True to prophecy in May 19, 1780 AD the sun darkened. That day was called "the great dark Day". The moon did not give her light the following night. The stars of heaven fell in november 13, 1833 AD.

When Jesus spoke His outline matthew 24 I don't think He did not mean these when He mentioned the signs and the tribulation.

I have to go. Check out this website http://remnantofgod.org

Thank you.

 

Gaps of time are not Biblical? Says who? Not God.

 

When Jesus began His Ministry and read from Isaiah 61 per Luke 4, He closed the Book without reading the very last part of Isaiah 61:2 - "and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;". He then said to the point He stopped reading was fulfilled that day at the start of His Ministry.

 

29 A.D. from the start of His Ministry until today is how big a gap in years? and that last part of Isaiah 61:2 is still yet to occur, because it is for the time of His second coming, His return.

 

So who is it that says there are no time gaps given in God's Holy Writ? Certainly not The LORD Himself.

 

That's a good point which brings up the natural question...who is it, do you think, that will proclaim the day of vengeance of our God?  Will it be Jesus as he returns, is it the two witnesses, or the church, or maybe all?  Just curious as to thoughts on it.

I'd like some thoughts as well on "to make atonement for iniquity" as being part of what the 70 weeks will accomplish.  I see this as being fulfilled in Christ's death, which, happened after the 62 weeks, if I understand it right.  I'm trying to reconcile this with a future seven year covenant.  Could it be that since the coming of the Messiah took place in the 62 weeks that that in itself is sufficient to cover what he would accomplish, and that His death doesn't necessarily have to fall within the 70 weeks?  Thoughts?

It needn't be a hard and fast rule that because "and" is used, both conditions must be in play. Look at this:

 

Mark 16:16  He who has believed and has been baptised shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

 

If there's no occasion for baptism before death, we know that isn't going to result in Hell for the person in question. Taking the mark, like baptism, is an outward sign of an inward condition, and not one that can be changed by that point. I believe that because of this:

 

Revelation 16:9

Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.

 

Revelation 16:11

and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.

 

It would seem there is a point of no return.

I understand what you're getting at but look at John 3:16.  There's no mention of baptism there.  If there had been just one mention of receiving the mark without the worshiping of the image, I'd agree.

As I understand the unfolding of the seals, trumpets, vials, there will be many months between the issuing of the mark and fourth vial of Rev 16:9, maybe a couple or three years.  The "did not repent" characteristic seems to be well down the road from the issuing of the mark.

Receiving the mark is clearly evil due to its association with the false prophet, the man of sin.  And no one should by any means receive it.  I want to be clear about that.  But there does seem to be provision for those who realize they've made a mistake and want out per Acts 2:

¹⁹ ‘And I will grant wonders in the sky above

And signs on the earth below,

Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.

²⁰ ‘The sun will be turned into darkness

And the moon into blood,

Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.

²¹ ‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

Will anyone who rejects the mark automatically receive salvation?  Conversely, is it true?

It is impossible for evil to dwell with our Heavenly Father (Psalms 5:4).

 

What are we thinking, that evil will still exist in God's Eternity of the new heavens and a new earth? God forbid, no!

 

If there will be no evil dwelling with Him in the future Eternity, then how is it we think evil existed with Him before this world, i.e., before Satan rebelled against Him?

 

The Isaiah 45:7 verse is often mis-applied to all time, when it is specific to this present world. In this present world God uses Satan as a punishing rod upon the wicked (per Isa.10), and allows His saints to be tried by him (like Job). God during this present world will even use an evil spirit to trick the foolish and haughty (Judges 9:23).

 

Just because one of the laws of nature regarding this present world is the law of opposites, that does not mean it was a law of the old world before Satan rebelled against Him, nor a law of the world to come. Rebellion will not happen a second time (Nahum 1:9).

 

Thus it is a mistake to compare the things of this present world with the world to come, or with the world of old when Satan was once perfect in his ways following God before he rebelled.

 

"Well God had to have created evil since He already knows everything before it happens, and knew Satan would rebel", some will say.

 

Yet our Heavenly Father said He created Satan perfect in his ways, and not evil, but iniquity was found in him (Ezek.28). Thus Satan committed the very first 'sin' (1 John 3:8), was first to break God's law, and thus evil must be assigned to Satan, and not to our Heavenly Father.

 

So how will evil, sin, and even death no longer exist in God's future Eternal Kingdom? It's because Satan will be no more, for all those things are assigned to him, and will perish with him in the "lake of fire", and be no more.

Well said Salty.