Last Daze
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Posts posted by Last Daze
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1) You missed my point completely, probably from the misconception that the seven year covenant is "pure hell on earth" per your #6.
1) I am confused how I missed your point when you said,
“Pre-tribbers especially like to refer to tribulation as wrath and seven years of wrath and seal judgments and other misnomers because it bolsters their "escapist" claim.”
1a) Can you clarify exactly, what your point was in your phrase, “because it bolsters their "escapist" claim.”?
2) Even if I did miss your point, does that preclude you from answering the two questions?
Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
1a) Would you call that promise “escapist”?
1b) If not, why would you call the promise by Jesus as “escapist”?
What I was getting at was that pre-tribbers like to equate the whole seven year covenant as a time of God's wrath and judgment. By doing so, it bolsters their claim that the rapture happens before the seven years because believers are not appointed for wrath. If you don't like the word "escapist" change it to something you like.
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Your reply supports the notion that unless basic terms and definitions are established up front, the conversation winds up being pretty meaningless.
1) Sounds reasonable, I will offer my meanings, generically, in hopes of better understanding.
1a) Persecution NGSM LN39.45- to systematically organize a program to oppress and harass people. (Louw Nida)
1b) Tribulation NASF LN22.2 - trouble involving direct suffering. (Louw Nida)
1c) God’s wrath NNSF LN3810 - divine punishment based on God’s angry judgment against someone. (Louw Nida)
1d) The more accurate meanings are determined by the morphology of the original word and the context of the passage, therefore, I think it is more appropriate to determine the meaning as it relates to the specific passage.
1e) The last days, the latter days, in that day, time of Jacob’s distress – refer to the 70th week of Daniel, Revelation 6-18.
2) Hope this helps you to see my perspective. Your comments?
I agree with your definitions and the importance of context.
I don't think that "the last days" or "the latter days" is synonymous with the 70th week of Daniel. I think the 70th week of Daniel is contained within the last or latter days. The last or latter days, as I see it, begin when the first seal is opened. The time of Jacob's distress I associate with the abomination of desolation.
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All chistians believe in jesus the Son of God,and so does satan.
jesse.
There is a difference between "believing in Jesus" and "believing Jesus exists".
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Not only that, they seem to ignore all the verses promising the belivers will escape the wrath of God during the tribulation.
There's a clear distinction between tribulation and God's wrath / judgment. People tend to use those words interchangeably when it concerns end times prophecy and obfuscate their meanings by turning it into basically a "certain time of yucky". Pre-tribbers especially like to refer to tribulation as wrath and seven years of wrath and seal judgments and other misnomers because it bolsters their "escapist" claim. At least that's been my experience.
1) Paul said,
Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
1a) Would you call that promise “escapist”?
1b) If not, why would you call the promise by Jesus as “escapist”?
Revelation 3:10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
As I see it, God's judgment / wrath is in the seven trumpets / vials of the seventh seal. The first six seals are events that include the great tribulation,not judgments, not wrath.
2) Did Jesus not say that the great tribulation would be the last 3 ½ years of Daniel’s 70th week? If that is true, then how could the “first six seals” be in the GT?
I think we can all agree that in the world we will have tribulation and at some point it will turn into a great tribulation, and that we are not appointed for wrath. Substitute "tribulation" with "persecution" and I think its a better read since the meaning of "tribulation" has become convoluted.
3) Do you equate “tribulation/persecution” spoken of in the NT as being one and the same with that spoken of in Revelation?
Persecution is something believers should expect to encounter, not escape.
4) The Christians that I know would never suggest that we are not to suffer, tribulations/persecutions but we do believe the promises of God that those that will be alive in the last days will not suffer the wrath of God as outlined in Rev 6 – 18. For those that do not want to claim the promises that God has made, you have my prayers.
5) If I may ask a couple of questions….do you believe that God is a just and fair God?
6) If you do, I have the following question, there were Bible believing twins in the last days, one twin died in an accident and was buried, a few days later, the tribulations and wrath as outlined in Revelation began. The second twin had to endure seven years of pure hell on earth. Do you think a just and fair God would consider that as being fair?
The distinction needs to be made.
7) Do you believe there is a very distinct difference in tribulations/ persecutions and the great tribulation and the wrath of God as spoken of in Revelation as it pertains to Daniel’s 70th week?
8) Does v16,17 seem to suggest that God’s wrath actually began in chapter 6?
Revelation 6:16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
Revelation 6:17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
9) I have asked Salty this question but he is not big on answering questions so perhaps you can, in your opinion, what is the reason for the tribulation period in the last days as spoken of in Revelation?
Your reply supports the notion that unless basic terms and definitions are established up front, the conversation winds up being pretty meaningless.
1) You missed my point completely, probably from the misconception that the seven year covenant is "pure hell on earth" per your #6.
2) The great tribulation is referring to as a time of persecution of believers. “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name." Matt 24:9 The great tribulation has nothing to do with God's wrath or judgment. The great tribulation starts at the fifth seal (near the middle of the 7 year covenant) when the the false prophet issues the "worship or die" ultimatum and ends at the sixth seal with the rapture.
3) Too vague of a question without establishing definitions.
4) I think you are either confused on what God's wrath is or what I said.
5) Really?
6) Sounds like you're confused on what happens during the 7 year covenant. As for your sense of fairness...What is that to you? You should follow Jesus. "So Peter seeing him [John] said to Jesus, “Lord, and what about this man?” Jesus *said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!” John 21:21-22, and don't forget about the laborers in the vineyard in Matt 20. I think your concept of fairness needs work.
7) During the 7 year covenant, there is a distinct difference between the great tribulation that believers will endure and the wrath of God. Yes.
8) Actually, chapter 8, when the seventh seal is opened.
9) Define "tribulation period in the last days" as you understand it.
When you see the seven year covenant made, and the church is still here, what will you make of it? Will you double-down on the pre-trib view? It doesn't really matter. What matters is that you discern the signs and refuse to worship the false prophet. I would focus on that and not the rapture. We have no say in when the rapture will happen but we do have a say in whether we worship the false prophet or not. Priorities.
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Not only that, they seem to ignore all the verses promising the belivers will escape the wrath of God during the tribulation.
There's a clear distinction between tribulation and God's wrath / judgment. People tend to use those words interchangeably when it concerns end times prophecy and obfuscate their meanings by turning it into basically a "certain time of yucky". Pre-tribbers especially like to refer to tribulation as wrath and seven years of wrath and seal judgments and other misnomers because it bolsters their "escapist" claim. At least that's been my experience.
As I see it, God's judgment / wrath is in the seven trumpets / vials of the seventh seal. The first six seals are events that include the great tribulation,not judgments, not wrath.
I think we can all agree that in the world we will have tribulation and at some point it will turn into a great tribulation, and that we are not appointed for wrath. Substitute "tribulation" with "persecution" and I think its a better read since the meaning of "tribulation" has become convoluted.
Persecution is something believers should expect to encounter, not escape.
The distinction needs to be made.
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Last Daze.
Compare them one by one.
Like: see first tumpet,then see first vial.
Sees second trumpet,then see second vial etc.
jesse,
The relation between trumpets and vials as I see it:
First Judgment
1st trumpet: and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.
1st vial: and it became a loathsome and malignant sore on the people who had the mark of the beast and who worshiped his image.
First trumpet sounds like drought conditions (two witnesses). As the drought gets worse, the water supply is greatly overburdened resulting in disease, or maybe even dehydration that causes the "mark" itself to fail, introducing some toxin into the body.
Second Judgment
2nd trumpet: and a third of the sea became blood, and a third of the creatures which were in the sea and had life, died; and a third of the ships were destroyed.
2nd vial: The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living thing in the sea died.
Correlation is pretty straightforward.
Third Judgment
3rd trumpet: and a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of waters...and a third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the waters, because they were made bitter.
3rd vial: Then the third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of waters; and they became blood.
Correlation is pretty straightforward.
Fourth Judgment
4th trumpet: The fourth angel sounded, and a third of the sun and a third of the moon and a third of the stars were struck, so that a third of them would be darkened and the day would not shine for a third of it, and the night in the same way.
4th vial: The fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun, and it was given to it to scorch men with fire. Men were scorched with fierce heat...
Celestial alterations.
Fifth Judgment
5th trumpet: He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit. Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power... And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months...And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death flees from them.
5th vial: Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain, and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.
When the trumpet sounds, the pit is opened...darkness...locusts released...pain for five months. When the vial is poured out, five months end...pit is opened...darkness...locusts return to the pit.
Sixth Judgment
6th trumpet: “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” And the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released, so that they would kill a third of mankind. The number of the armies of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them.
6th vial: The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east.
This one isn't quite so straightforward. I see it as preparation for the gathering at Har-Magedon. I'm not sure what the common reference to the Euphrates is about though. The missing key to this one, I believe, is the death of the two witnesses, who I believe are being blamed for all the plagues. Deaths from the plagues of fire, smoke, and brimstone are running rampant at the sound of the trumpet. This continues until a third of mankind is killed. What ends the plagues, I think, is the death of the two witnesses. This is cause for great celebration and giving gifts. The oppressive conditions are lifted, fresh water returns, etc. However, three days later, the two witnesses come back to life and are taken into heaven. This is cause for great concern and the three unclean spirits like frogs from the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet go out and deceive the kings of the world to gather them to Har-Magedon setting the stage for the seventh trumpet and vial which I've already shown the correlation between.
This is why I think the trumpets begin a judgment and a vial brings it to its fullness. Also notice that some of the judgments start with partial effect, then full effect, i.e. 1/3 of the sea is blood...all of the sea is blood.
Concerning the sequencing of trumpets and vials I think that the trumpets are sequential, and that the vials are sequential, however, the first judgment doesn't necessarily have to conclude before the second one can begin.
I'm sure there is plenty of debate about all of this. I was asked to expound upon the trumpet/vial connection and this is how I see it. I'm not really wanting to get into a lengthy debate about it myself, its just my take on it. Whether we are raptured or protected through it, its not for us believers.
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Can you guys please explain this scripture?
Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
PLease dont ignore scriptures as you go along?
jesse.
This is how I see it:
The seventh trumpet:
Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, “We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.” And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.
The seventh vial:
Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, “It is done.” And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, *came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague *was extremely severe.
A lot of similarity between the seventh trumpet and vial. Given that similarity, I'd say they are just moments apart.
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They are not the same events. The trumpets are spoken of in Revelation 8, while the seven bowls are spoken of in Revelation 15. You seem to the one who should be concerned about being confused.
I agree that they aren't the same event. I've noticed a correlation though between trumpet 1, vial 1...trumpet 2, vial 2...etc. and based on the symbolism I think its reasonable to assume that the trumpet 1 begins judgment 1 and the pouring out of vial 1 brings it to its completion. The same for 2, 3, etc. Trumpets announce or commence something....emptying a vial finished it. At least IMO.
Edit: The seventh trumpet and vial are likely in rapid succession.
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Tribulation and God's wrath are not the same.
That's just simply a fact.
They are two completely different things, and the seven trumpets are part of His Wrath.
Therefore, the rapture is before the seven trumpets and at the sixth seal.
I'm inclined to agree with your viewpoint but consider the rapture timing somewhat of a secondary issue. I think our focus should be on discerning the times, which will be beneficial to all.
We have examples of God's protection...the Hebrews in Egypt as OneLight pointed out, Lot, and Noah as below.
"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment..." 2 Peter 2:4-9
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I've just been thinking of something.
We all know that the formation of the modern state of Israel has an important significance in prophecy and a number of prophecies are meant to be fulfilled during this generation. However when was Israel actually formed? I see three options.
1/ Israel was re-formed sometime in the late Nineteenth or early Twentieth Centuries. This is when Jews started coming back and rebuilding the nation. However we don't really have a specific date or year to work with here.
2/ 14th May 1948. This is when Israel was officially recognised as a country by the U.N. Historians view this date as the start of the new country. However our views may differ from the way God thinks.
3/ June 1967. At the end of the Six-day War, the Jews finally reclaimed Jerusalem as their own for the first time in around 1,900 years. It came into their possession and they also gained control of the Temple Mount. Is this really the time when new Israel was born?
Your opinions please.
Since I see the final world kingdom starting off as a multinational power (feet of iron and clay) presumably the UN, the 1948 day to me is significant. I think the first seal corresponds to the Rev 13:2 release of the beast from the abyss (fallen angel) and that happened prior to 1948. The fallen angel then caused the UN to come into being which then recognized Israel.
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Because of what I see with that Luke 23 - 6th seal example which is pointing directly to deceived Jews in Jerusalem, and what Apostle Paul said about the part of Israel God blinded, I don't see it as the unforgiveable sin. Only if one is not deceived, and still agrees to take the mark and bow do I see as the unforgiveable sin, and that would have to be one of those 144,000.
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
jesse.
This will not happen at the coming, because many will survive the second coming.
They will be cast into the fire at the second judgement; They will be the goats on the left.
jesse.
God's cup of wrath is poured out on the earth on the last day of this world, at Christ's second coming. It is what will destroy man's works off the surface of the earth and end this present time, ushering us into Christ's thousand years reign on earth. See 2 Pet.3:10 and end of Hebrews 12, and especially Isaiah.
I agree that babylon will be no more. But there will be many survivors,and they will carry on on earth.
Christ will set up his kingdom with boundaries.rev 21:17.18, it's a cube. There will be no fly zone for satans angels.
The survivors will be preach to by the chosen jews.Many will be converted but also many will not.
Jews and gentiles will multiply during the thousand years.Then satan will draw all the unconverted to one place
to be destroyed by God himself. This is the war of gog in the land of magog.(non believers).
It will take seven moths to bury the dead in the valey of hamongog.
jesse.
I thought Christ's kingdom filled the earth per Daniel 2.
35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
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Hi Last Daze,
If you look back at #189 you will see that I wrote -
`What we are seeing as the scroll is opened is the world systems (Political, economic, military & religious), (the martyrs) & everyone who will be judged. Just because these have been operating for a long time does not mean they are being judged yet.`The judgment scroll shows `who will be judged.`
1. Conquering / Political system `lording it over.`
2. War /Military
3. Scales / Economic `rich not giving labourer his hire.`
4. Death & Hades / Religious motivation.
5. (martyrs) blood of God`s servants.
6. The world in fear of God`s wrath.
7. The Coming of the Lord. (the completion (7) of the judgments.
We see in different scriptures that God will judge this Gentile world system (Luke 21: 24 1 Cor. 6: 2 Dan. 7: 26) And in Deut. 32 we see that these judgments are `sealed up` until God`s timing. The very words are similar to Rev. 10 -
`Indeed, I lift up my hand to heaven, & say as I live forever, If I sharpen my flashing sword & My hand takes hold on justice, I will render vengeance on My adversaries, & I will repay those who hate Me. I will make My arrows drunk with blood & My sword shall devour flesh, with the blood of the slain & the captives, from the long-haired leaders of the enemy.`
`Rejoice, O nations, with His people; For he will avenge the blood of His servants, & will render vengeance on His adversaries, & will atone for His land & His people.` (Deut. 32: 40 - 43)
Thus we can see the 2 groups - Israel (His people) & the nations (Rev. 7 Israel & the nations) who can `rejoice` when they turn to God, that He will avenge the martyrs, (blood of His servants) ....etc
Hope that it explains it more, Last Daze.
How do you reconcile the fifth seal as a judgment with John 5:24?
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
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Hi Last Daze,
Thanks, that is a very good question. In Deuteronomy 32 we read -
`Is it not laid up in store with Me, sealed up in My armoury? Vengeance is mine & retribution,.... For He will avenge the blood of His servants, & will render vengeance on His adversaries, & will atone for His land & His people.` (Deut. 32: 34 & 43)
`Sealed up` until Christ executes God`s judgments upon the rebellious.
`For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son.` (John 5: 22)
When I read what happens at the opening of the seals, it seems that judgment is announced in the sixth seal and is carried out in the seventh seal with the trumpets. I don't see how the term "judgment" applies to the whole scroll. I agree that it leads to judgment but I don't see how each seal is a judgment, especially the first and fifth. If you think they are judgments, can you explain what the judgment is for seals 1 and 5? Thanks.
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The second temple was build according to ez.40---48.
The third temple will be build the same as ez.40--48.
But first the dome must be destroyed.
This is israel's propblem at the moment.
But the f.prophet will do it for them;but he also will claim it for himself.
jesse.
Have you heard anything about the dome being in the court of the gentiles and not needing to be destroyed in order for a temple to be built?
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Hi Spock & Lamad,
As you are saying similar things that Rev. 4 & 5 is just after Christ`s ascension & thus Rev. 6 could be from then on. (33 AD ->)
As the scroll is a judgment scroll then Christ would have to be judging the world from then on. We know that there are consequences for sin, sickness, wars etc but to my understanding God`s judgments have not yet been poured out. Thus I believe the scroll has not yet been opened.
Also Rev. 4 & 5 is about Christ on His own throne (Rev. 3:21) His own authority. At present Christ is at the right hand of the Father (Heb. 1: 3) When the Body of Christ is mature it will be taken to Christ`s own throne as He promised. There, together with Christ they will judge the world Systems. (1 Cor. 6: 2)
What we are seeing as the scroll is opened is the world systems (Political, economic, military & religious), (the martyrs) & everyone who will be judged. Just because these have been operating for a long time does not mean they are being judged yet.
I am curious as to how you came to the conclusion that the scroll is a judgment scroll.
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Daniel 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
So what gave these beasts (kingdoms) their dominion? I think Daniel 10 sheds some light on it...the prince of Persia, the prince of Greece, and I'm guessing that by extension, the prince of Babylon, and the prince of Rome. I see it as the supernatural's effect upon the natural i.e. the fallen angel is allowed to influence an earthly government into a place of dominion. Then at some point, that angel (dominion) is taken away, yet the earthly kingdom continued on for a while. Is that how you see it Sister?
I think that in the prophecy of the great statue in Daniel 2 you can see the inclusion of all of those fallen angels (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome) when Christ returns in these verses:
34 You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time...
44 In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.
I don't see how that can be talking about the historic kingdoms in a natural sense.
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Thanks you two for your thoughts on the subject. While I still think the trio consists of Satan, the demonic prince of Rome, and the false prophet/Antichrist (demon, demon, human), I'll keep what you've told me here in mind.
Hi Last daze.
Demons are not fallen angels;but they are the souls of the hybrids during the flood.
The spirits of those half angels are not accepted in heaven.
They are the trouble makers on earth. And they do possess people.
jesse.
Hey Jesse,
Yeah, I've heard that distinction between fallen angels and demons. While I don't doubt what you're saying, I'm not convinced that its accurate either. Honestly, I just don't know. I've read articles that support both views. If fallen angel works better in your thinking than demon, that's fine. The point is still the same i.e. the beast from the sea is an evil spirit being and not a human.
Hi Last Daze
Isaiah 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isaiah 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
Isaiah 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
This passage is interesting, I thought you might want to look into it.
It appears that these kings that are ruling when Christ returns (possibly the ten?) will not be killed at the coming. It appears that the Lord will not only take their dominion away, but put them in prison for some time.
They are accountable for much evil, and the Lord is going to let them know he is Lord.
These are rich powerful leaders who have had all the pleasures in life, ...who have never gone without. They have caused much sufferring to the world, and their blasphemies will now be dealt with.
...so now they will be made to feel it. A death sentence in prison is a big turn around from the lifestyles they are used to.
That does look interesting. I'm guessing that you see v 21 as making a distinction between fallen angels and demons? I'll look it up and get a feel for the context as well.
Thanks Sister.
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Thanks you two for your thoughts on the subject. While I still think the trio consists of Satan, the demonic prince of Rome, and the false prophet/Antichrist (demon, demon, human), I'll keep what you've told me here in mind.
Hi Last daze.
Demons are not fallen angels;but they are the souls of the hybrids during the flood.
The spirits of those half angels are not accepted in heaven.
They are the trouble makers on earth. And they do possess people.
jesse.
Hey Jesse,
Yeah, I've heard that distinction between fallen angels and demons. While I don't doubt what you're saying, I'm not convinced that its accurate either. Honestly, I just don't know. I've read articles that support both views. If fallen angel works better in your thinking than demon, that's fine. The point is still the same i.e. the beast from the sea is an evil spirit being and not a human.
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What if a believer CHOOSES to just walk right out of the Father's hand? We came in by an act of our will - so what if someone wills to walk away from God? What if someone gets deep enough into sin they just wish to remain? What if a believer just won't let go of unforgiveness?
What if a believer just wants to remain in a certain lifestyle God hates? (I could go on and on.)
Do WE as believers have any say in this?
LAMAD
Did someone finally settle the free will vs. predestination debate? I missed it.
I guarantee it is settled in heaven! The truth is, there are many in hell today that were once born again. Jesus has taken people to hell and shown such people, and explained why they were there. One for example, was a thief. but believed her stealing was just a "little" sin. Now she knows the truth.
LAMAD
Where in the Bible does it say that? I don't accept extra-Biblical sources as being on par with the infallible word of God.
Of course it is not equal to the written word. But when personal testimony AGREES with the Word, we should accept it. Did you not see that some of what Paul wrote as personal testimony that has now become a part of the written word? I am not speaking of one or two examples: there are MANY that all agree. Finally, did you not read that theives will not make it to heaven? Paul gave us a list and that was included. If someone is a thief, and belives that is a small sin that does not need to be confessed - they do not qualify for heaven. It is plain and simple.
LAMAD
Sounds more like the personal testimony agrees with your interpretation of the Word. Paul's testimony is in the Bible. The others you refer to are not. Big difference.
Concerning my reading about thieves, have you ever heard of "setting up the straw man"? Its a logical fallacy where someone tries to bolster their position by presenting an argument that is generally true but irrelevant. That's what you've done. The fact that stealing is a sin, and that thieves will not inherit the kingdom of God is true but completely irrelevant to the idea of extra-Biblical testimony being used to interpret God's word.
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So what do you think? Do you agree so far? Why or why not...I've always wondered why this is an issue. Is it an effort to establish a "baseline" of sin that we can "get away with" and still be saved? Or a means to control people through fear?
Why not teach people to learn and do the will of God? Then it becomes much less of an issue, if any issue at all.
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What if a believer CHOOSES to just walk right out of the Father's hand? We came in by an act of our will - so what if someone wills to walk away from God? What if someone gets deep enough into sin they just wish to remain? What if a believer just won't let go of unforgiveness?
What if a believer just wants to remain in a certain lifestyle God hates? (I could go on and on.)
Do WE as believers have any say in this?
LAMAD
Did someone finally settle the free will vs. predestination debate? I missed it.
I guarantee it is settled in heaven! The truth is, there are many in hell today that were once born again. Jesus has taken people to hell and shown such people, and explained why they were there. One for example, was a thief. but believed her stealing was just a "little" sin. Now she knows the truth.
LAMAD
Where in the Bible does it say that? I don't accept extra-Biblical sources as being on par with the infallible word of God.
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What if a believer CHOOSES to just walk right out of the Father's hand? We came in by an act of our will - so what if someone wills to walk away from God? What if someone gets deep enough into sin they just wish to remain? What if a believer just won't let go of unforgiveness?
What if a believer just wants to remain in a certain lifestyle God hates? (I could go on and on.)
Do WE as believers have any say in this?
LAMAD
Did someone finally settle the free will vs. predestination debate? I missed it.
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The 7th is today's Rome( the british empire).(the feet mixed).
The 8th is coming soon,which will be a global empire.
The only "tie-in" that I see between the legs of iron and the feet of iron and clay is the evil angel that grants them a position of dominion. The great statue in Daniel 2 uses five distinct materials to describe four kingdoms. In Daniel 7 there are four beasts to describe the same four kingdoms. Daniel 7 is more from the "evil angel" perspective (behind the scenes) and the great statue is more from a natural perspective (what we can see). When John wrote Revelation, Rome "was" but the evil angel behind Rome "was not" (he had been cast into the abyss).
I see the feet of iron and clay describing a multi-national type government where the evil angel (beast from the sea) is the ruler, an 8th king, and he is of the 7 (working through the false prophet who is the 7th).
LAST DAZE.
The 8th beast was and is not;yet is.
Was=he really was: which was a one world system and religion, and a one preople and one leader.
That beast was called BABEL, the kingdom of Nimrod.
Is not = He is no more in the days of Johns.
And yet is = He is not dead. Satan has not given up that idea,in his head.
And will come out of the bott.pit = the nwo is an idea,and that idea will come out of the bott.pit.
Bottomless pit = Satans brain child.
jesse.
Time will tell.
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The 7th is today's Rome( the british empire).(the feet mixed).
The 8th is coming soon,which will be a global empire.
The only "tie-in" that I see between the legs of iron and the feet of iron and clay is the evil angel that grants them a position of dominion. The great statue in Daniel 2 uses five distinct materials to describe four kingdoms. In Daniel 7 there are four beasts to describe the same four kingdoms. Daniel 7 is more from the "evil angel" perspective (behind the scenes) and the great statue is more from a natural perspective (what we can see). When John wrote Revelation, Rome "was" but the evil angel behind Rome "was not" (he had been cast into the abyss).
I see the feet of iron and clay describing a multi-national type government where the evil angel (beast from the sea) is the ruler, an 8th king, and he is of the 7 (working through the false prophet who is the 7th).
TWO comings TWO raptures
in Prophecy
Posted
For what reason are those delivered to tribulation in Matt 24:9 and why are they hated by all nations and killed? The reason is very explicit...because of the name of Jesus. It is clearly those who believe in Jesus that He is referring to. No amount of tap-dancing will change that.
Christians (saints) will be delivered to tribulation, hated, and killed under the rule of the false prophet in large numbers because of the name of Jesus.
"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes...These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Rev 7:9,14
To say that the great multitude results from some "revival" after the pre-trib rapture runs contrary to the spiritual climate of the last days: "Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction." 2 Thess 2:3 and "For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false" 2 Thess 2:11 Not very fertile ground for a revival, especially a great multitude beyond number.
The great multitude is made up of those who reject the mark: "Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus." Rev 14:12
"It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him." Rev 13:7
"I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them." Daniel 7:21
What do I say? I say that its more important to be prepared for what's coming than to engage in endless debate about the rapture. The rapture will happen when it happens and none of our debate will affect when that is. The question is what will be your trigger event? The seven year agreement? The destruction of the world's capital and the ensuing wars and rumors of war? Someone in the Middle East calling fire down from heaven? A mandatory mark in order to buy or sell? Which event will cause a rethink? It really doesn't matter which one does, as long as one of them does. That's what I say. Just be prepared.