Last Daze

 

 

 

 

Muslims bow and pray toward that Black Rock in Mecca five times a day....      even though they can't actually see itl..   they know it's there and bow toward it anyway.

Probably so, but it seems that that type of worship would be hard to detect and enforce the "or die" clause.

 

I think you need to visit Muslim controlled countries and rethink that.

 

I was thinking on a global scale, in the short time frame of the end times.

 

but remember that most people are going to think the beast is the best thing since sliced bread, and they will rat you out or kill you themselves.

 

That's very true.  Given the way that Muslims are infiltrating virtually every country on the planet and their propensity for beheadings, and hatred for Christians, I think I know who the axemen will be.  I still think that technology will be used to spot people who don't emit the expected electronic signal in order to expedite the "cleansing".

I always believed that the worship clause is to condemn those who didn't actually take the mark but worshipped the Beast anyway. Because of logistics there will be some who want to take the mark but can't. Maybe there is too long a waiting list or if the mark is done by machine then maybe there just isn't enough time to ensure that all of those those who want it get it.

The clause is there to stop people from saying "look see, I don't have actually have the mark, you can't condemn me to the fire". God will know what is in their hearts.

 

However, your post is making me think this over again.

I agree that the logistics of such an undertaking is enormous.  I think that the 10 leaders were planning on ruling much longer than one hour and that they will have made all the preparations, logistically speaking, for the implementation of the mark.  The false prophet (antichrist) hijacks their system and after subduing their rebellion, begins implementing the mark...as I see it.

 

 

Muslims bow and pray toward that Black Rock in Mecca five times a day....      even though they can't actually see itl..   they know it's there and bow toward it anyway.

Probably so, but it seems that that type of worship would be hard to detect and enforce the "or die" clause.

 

I think you need to visit Muslim controlled countries and rethink that.

 

I was thinking on a global scale, in the short time frame of the end times.

Muslims bow and pray toward that Black Rock in Mecca five times a day....      even though they can't actually see itl..   they know it's there and bow toward it anyway.

Probably so, but it seems that that type of worship would be hard to detect and enforce the "or die" clause.

 

I'd like some thoughts on this question.

 

My initial thought is 'no'.  Don't get me wrong, I have no intention of flirting with disaster, just want to make sense of some things.

 

Where it speaks of judgment being carried out it always says it like this: “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand..." .  If the mark alone was enough to "damn someone to hell" then why add the worship clause?  Using the "and" conjunction indicates that both must be in play.  I see "receiving the mark" as the first act of worship which is followed by continued worship (complying with the mandates of the image).  Can someone realize at some point, say when things really go south, that they've made a bad decision and repent.  I think so, but I'm not sure.  I think it might part of what the 144,000 do, bear witness and call to repentance.

 

Also, I think the decision to receive the mark or not will be made by everyone in just a couple months or so.  Why not just kill them all then?  I think the reason is that the judgments of the seventh seal gets progressively worse to try and convince people of their bad decision.  The great majority, though, will not see through the deception and will remain stiff-necked in their rebellion.  But might some repent as a result?  Maybe, but very, very few, kind of like God's searching for that last gold coin or two.

 

Another reason why I think you will be able to repent after receiving the mark is in Acts 2:

 

"And I will grant wonders in the sky above

And signs on the earth below,

Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.

The sun will be turned into darkness

And the moon into blood,

Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.

And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

 

I don't see any exception for those who have received the mark in there.  Again, the vast majority won't repent, but why make that statement if it weren't possible?

 

Thoughts?

 

'Accountability' is the key.

 

Our Lord Jesus said all manner of sin can be forgiven man, except the unpardonable sin against The Holy Spirit, which I believe during the tribulation when the 'mark' is instituted will only apply to one of His elect falling away.

 

If one sins in ignorance that is a different situation of accountability to God. In the case of the 'mark' when the Pseudo-Christ comes, brethren that do that in ignorance is different than brethren not in ignorance that know better, but accept it anyway (like a chosen elect).

 

Per the end of Rev.13, a requirement of taking the 'mark' associates agreement to bow in false worship. It's shown as a choice. Since the devil is after our souls especially, it wouldn't mean the same thing if it was forced upon one who refused the false worship, which is why it says those who refuse are to be killed.

 

For those in Christ who are given from God to know the coming Pseudo-Christ will play our Lord Jesus, knowing the difference between the false coming and our Lord Jesus true coming later, if they accept the mark they will have committed the unpardonable sin against The Holy Spirit. They will be held fully accountable, because they were given to 'know', and will not be able to claim ignorance when Jesus comes.

 

But a brother who doesn't know that difference, and thus becomes deceived, will think that coming Pseudo-Christ will be whom? They will believe that truly is... our Lord Jesus, so they will not even consider that they are bowing in false worship to another. This is why it is so important to understand per God's Word what kind of Antichrist is coming to sit the temple of God in Jerusalem for the last days, exalting himself as God. Per God's Word it is going to be a fake Christ, and a very believable fake one at that, not some pope or religious fanatic like those of past history that only claimed to be Jesus Christ.

 

This is why those who look for some leader rising from among Islam, or New York, or any other faction except one that would fit our Lord Jesus, are way off the track of God's Word on this matter.

 

Interesting perspective.  Would it be fair to summarize your reply as: those who receive the mark with the full knowledge of what it is will not be able to repent but those who receive it in ignorance will be able to?

 

First of all thank you onelight for fixing my post. I am sure that will cut down on confusion.

And in response to last daze, I can only speculate as I can find no scripture to say how they made it or exactly what it looks like. I would think it would be in the image of either the devil or the antichrist. I am sure of this one thing though, we wont be able to miss it when it is built. The statue of Daniels day was made from gold and was threescore cubits tall and six cubits wide. If my notes are correct threescore cubits is about 90 feet tall. Dont quote me on that though. I am not the best with numbers. I am not certian that the image was made to look like nebuchadnezzar either. It just says image or golden image every where I looked. not sure if its implied or if the image was to represent the enemy. We will know when it happens though from the clues the bible gives us. Which is image given life/breath to speak, we will be forced to worship or die, but in the book of daniel the important message is what them three hebrew boys said, which is... O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. If it be so, oir God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning firey furnace, and He will deliver us out of thine hand, o king. BUT IF NOT, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

This is the key to our faith.... our God can, and will save us, but even if He wont deliver us from thier hand, we will not bow. Amen.

 

What if it were a statue image of what brethren think our Lord Jesus looks like???

 

Afterall, our Lord Jesus was specific in Matt.24:23-26 that the coming Antichrist will come to play Him, and if possible that pseudo-Christ would deceive even His very elect (KJV "false Christs" = Greek pseudochristos, from two Greek words, pseudo and Christos. Those verses are in the singular tense per their context.)

 

Okay, so if there is some physical statue image, how does everyone in the world worship it?  I'm presuming that if it were a statue that it would be located in Jerusalem.  The way I read it, there's only one image.  How do the people of the world make it, that one image?  Those characteristics keep me from thinking that its a physical statue, unless maybe it's accompanied by a code of laws as mentioned in the OP.  I'm not discounting the possibility of a physical statue but I can't see that its only a statue.

 

 

 

This gets clearer each time I read it.

Mind you there are only 144,000 sealed, and they are sealed just before the 7 angels start to sound. 144 thousand is such a small number according to how many christians there are?

 

I know we're not given a lot of info on the 144,000 but what do you see as their purpose?

 

Hi Last Daze

 

I see two groups.

1.  The masses that came out of tribulation and washed their robes white in the blood of the lamb.  Mind you their robes are only cleansed after they are persecuted.  They chose Christ in the end and prepared to die for his sake.

2.  The small group, the 144,000 who followed the lamb whereever he went.  This means they are not luke-warm, but must be true followers existing at the end times.  Whether Jew or gentile, they are Christ's.  I believe they already washed their robe white during their life, and not just "at the end"  They are called the "first-fruits".  So they must be the "first" of something.

 

Revelation 14:1   And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

 

They are there with Christ, but where are the masses that were mentioned?  Not there yet as it appears.  They must be taken up first, just before the others.  I don't think these ones will be killed during the tribulation, but spared somehow, like it was during the passover in Egypt when the angels were not allowed to harm those who had the mark on their door.  Same type of thing, as they are sealed and protected, and there is only a small number.

 

Revelation 7:1-8

 

After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

 

of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

Revelation14:1-5

Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.

 

I've always been curious about this phrase: These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins.   I can't imagine that this is talking about sex since in a marriage relationship its not defiling.  Maybe a spiritual application?

 

 

"And I will grant wonders in the sky above

And signs on the earth below,

Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.

The sun will be turned into darkness

And the moon into blood,

Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.

And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

 

I don't see any exception for those who have received the mark in there.  Again, the vast majority won't repent, but why make that statement if it weren't possible?

 

Thoughts?

Hi Last Daze.

 

I think it means that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord - before the trumpets blow, and have the knowledge to refuse the mark of the beast will be spared from the wrath of God.  After that it will be too late. 

Many will realise they have made a mistake for taking the mark of the beast, but that mark on them shows who they chose to serve.  Once it's there, cannot change it. Can remove the mark if you wish, but your name is still listed as being the property of the Beast.  They already traded their inheritance for a bowl of soup.

 

Hi Sister,

I'm not sure how you see the seals unfolding.  I think the mark is given during the fifth seal, after the warfare of the first four seals.  This is when the worship or die ultimatum is given and believers are martyred. Then the sixth seal coincides with the above quoted passage, then the seventh seal with God's judgment (trumpets/vials).  Are you saying that up until the sixth seal that those who have received the mark can repent but once the trumpets blow, the option is off the table? 

Revelation 14: 9-11 is clear what happens to those who take the mark or worship the beast or his image.

The NASB uses "and" not "or".  If it were "or" there would be no question.  That's just why it seems odd to me.

Would you really bet your soul that one can take the mark and repent?

Absolutely not, it just seemed strange the way it was worded, that "received the mark" and "worship the image" were always together...like it took both.  Just soliciting feedback.

 

 

I think its a statue because of revelation 13:15.

Can you elaborate?

 

sure thing. Rev. 13:15... and he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast would both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should not be killed.

ok first off the book of daniel is the go to source for an idea of what it will be like. Nebuchadnezzar was after all the king of babylon. King nebuchadnezzar decreed that all who do not fall down and worship the edifus when the music plays they got killed. Very similar to the above scripture. It says also that he gave life unto the image of the beast that it should speak. If we take a gander at the word life we see it literaly means "breath." This also means at one point the image didnt speak. What dont normaly speak that would decieve the masses if all of the sudden it could speak?.... a statue. I read a post by another forum member that said it could be a hologram, not to call that forum member out and say they are wrong, but lets also keep in mind that the beast will be doing miracles and this will be done by the power of darkness, not computerized software/hardware. This is going to be the ultimate spiritual battle on earth and the only hope one has of not being decieved by darkness is if they are covered in The Blood of The Lamb. Also everywhere else in The Book when it says image it means a stock or stone, a little idol, or in the case of the book of Daniel, a really big statue.

*** fixed ***

 

How do those who dwell on the earth make it, and if its a fallen angel, what do they make it to look like?  Thoughts?

I'd like some thoughts on this question.

My initial thought is 'no'.  Don't get me wrong, I have no intention of flirting with disaster, just want to make sense of some things.

Where it speaks of judgment being carried out it always says it like this: “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand..." .  If the mark alone was enough to "send someone to hell" then why add the worship clause?  Using the "and" conjunction indicates that both must be in play.  I see "receiving the mark" as the first act of worship which is followed by continued worship (complying with the mandates of the image).  Can someone realize at some point, say when things really go south, that they've made a bad decision and repent.  I think so, but I'm not sure.  I think it might part of what the 144,000 do, bear witness and call to repentance.

Also, I think the decision to receive the mark or not will be made by everyone in just a couple months or so.  Why not just kill them all then?  I think the reason is that the judgments of the seventh seal gets progressively worse to try and convince people of their bad decision.  The great majority, though, will not see through the deception and will remain stiff-necked in their rebellion.  But might some repent as a result?  Maybe, but very, very few, kind of like God's searching for that last gold coin or two.

Another reason why I think you will be able to repent after receiving the mark is in Acts 2:

"And I will grant wonders in the sky above

And signs on the earth below,

Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.

The sun will be turned into darkness

And the moon into blood,

Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.

And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

I don't see any exception for those who have received the mark in there.  Again, the vast majority won't repent, but why make that statement if it weren't possible?

Thoughts?

 

By that you are literally removing the 'five foolish virgins' out of our Lord Jesus parable warning about the ten virgins.

 

There will be deceived brethren that truly believe on Jesus Christ, and it will comprise whole congregations who will listen to their elders and pastors tell them that the coming Pseudo-Christ is our Lord Jesus. Just as how many blindly follow what they are taught in Churches that allow charlatans to creep in and guide them, those sheep are not recognizing The True Shepherd's voice.

 

And based on what our Lord Jesus taught about the tribulation events, the number of deceived brethren will be in a majority.

 

I suggest you make a decision who you will listen to and heed in our near future, especially when the Pseudo-Christ shows up. In that time there will only be One valid True Voice to listen to, that being the Voice of our Heavenly Father through His Son by The Holy Spirit revealing His Word of Truth.

 

I'm curious as to what you think about the mark, whether receiving it seals one's fate with no possibility of repentance.  I'm of the persuasion that receiving the mark is an act, the initial act, of pseudo-Christ worship but that someone can realize that they made an error, repent, and discontinue worshiping him.  Granted, the vast majority will be blinded by the delusion.  I was dogpiled in a different forum for suggesting the possibility of someone repenting after receiving the mark.  Thoughts?

Edit: after I posted this, I got to thinking that this should probably be a thread of its own.  I'll start one shortly.

This gets clearer each time I read it.

Mind you there are only 144,000 sealed, and they are sealed just before the 7 angels start to sound. 144 thousand is such a small number according to how many christians there are?

 

I know we're not given a lot of info on the 144,000 but what do you see as their purpose?

In 1965 I saw an image of Abraham Lincoln that gave a speech that was so real that from the audience you could not tell that the robot was not actually real.....    considering the things that have progressed in the past 45 years, I would think that the image could be several things.....   I don't think what it is is as important as what it says.     If I had to choose I think I would pick a hologram.   The newer ones are remarkable.

That could be.  The thing that keeps me from seeing it as a tangible thing is that those who dwell on the earth make it.  It seems more like a collective effort thing that everyone has a hand in making.

I think its a statue because of revelation 13:15.

Can you elaborate? 

what about Rev 17:15 is it in play

Not sure if that's directed at me but I think Rev 17:18 is related to Rev 17:15 describing where the harlot sits.  A description, IMO, that fits NYC.  I don't see it as related to the image.

I've been thinking lately about what the image of the beast might be.  I think its an important subject because believers are going to give up their lives rather than worship it.  I'm using the premise that the beast that comes out of the sea in Revelation 13 is a fallen angel who oversees the final world power based on Daniel 10 and the fact that he comes up out of the abyss.  Its an important characterization to make since the image is a likeness of this beast.

The verses that describe the image of the beast:

And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon. And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. And he performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life. And there was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast might even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. Revelation 13:11-15

From this passage we know the following characteristics of the image of the beast:

• The image is of the beast that was wounded and came back to life. This is the beast with seven heads and ten horns.
• The beast with two horns initiates it.
• Those that dwell on the earth make it.
• Breath is given to the image by the beast with two horns.
• The image speaks and causes those who do not worship it to die.

Working with the premise that the seven-headed, ten-horned beast is an evil angel and is causing this final kingdom to exercise dominion, an image or likeness of this beast would reflect that dominion.  There is only one image and the people of the earth make it.  Because of that description, I don't see it as being a statue or anything physical.  The only thing that I've been able to come up with that fits is that the image is a code of laws that the people collaborate on that expresses the authority of the false prophet (antichrist) and allegiance to him.  He gives breath to this image by enacting it as law.  Part of this law will likely have the ultimatum of "worship or die" in it.  People demonstrate their worship, that they've bought into his claim as god, by receiving the mark.  With the mark presumably being detectable electronically, the image can "speak" through technology identifying  who has the mark and who doesn't, kind of the ultimate worldwide surveillance.

I'm interested in other viewpoints on this topic.  I consider it to be one of the most important concepts to contemplate.  In offering another perspective, please address all five characteristics of the image listed above.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well said.  There are so many semantic / definition issues when using end times prophecy terms that unless they are clearly, plainly defined there will be unnecessary misunderstandings...tribulation being one of them.  Context is also important.  Don't disregard context.  In Matthew 24 it seems to me that Jesus is talking about the tribulation of believers per verse 9: “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."  Because of the mark of the beast and other technologies, it will be difficult for believers to escape death.  If those days hadn't been shortened, no "life" ("believer" per context) would be saved.

 

As I see it...immediately after those days, the sixth seal is opened and believers are caught up, followed by the seventh seal which contains the trumpet / bowl judgments.  So I agree that there is a full seven years and what is cut short is the time the believers are persecuted, the "great tribulation".

 

Why would you even think of rearranging John's God given chronology? What you see is not the intent of the Author.

 

"Those days" of "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus will begin in Revelation in chapter 12 where Satan (using the Beast) goes after those living in Judea who have fled, having seen the abomination, and really get hot after chapter 14, when the mark is established and the image erected for all to worship. The days of great tribulation are at their highest in chapter 15 of Revelation, just before God unleases the plagues and vials.

 

Therefore, the seals are not a part of the 70th week, and "those days" Jesus spoke of will not begin until AFTER the abomination which takes place in chapter 11 of Revelation.

 

LAMAD

 

 

I didn't rearrange anything, just matched it up.

 

In Matthew 24:29 Jesus said:

 

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.  And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

 

The sixth seal is described:

 

I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

 

Looks like a match to me.

 

What LOOKS like a match may not BE a match, and it this case certainly is not. The signs in the sun and moon are to be seen TWICE: once at the 6th seal as the fulfillment of the Joel 2 prophecy, and again just before Jesus returns on the white horse, as the fulfillment of the Joel 3 prophecy. If you read more closely, you will see they are DIFFERENT and cannot be the same. If you study Joel, he shows us BOTH signs. They will be over 7 years apart.

 

This is one big error on the part of Van Kampen and Rosenthal, the originators of the prewrath theory; neither recogized that these signs in the sun and moon would happen twice, so in their theories they had to completely rearrange Revelation.

 

LAMAD

 

 

What about the stars falling from the sky?  You forgot that one.  How many times does that happen?

 

No, I did not forget. In 1833 the sky was lit up with "falling stars." It was so bright at night one could read with all the falling meteorites. Yet, today we certainly still see stars. Stars can represent churches. Stars can represent angels or fallen angels. And stars can be falling meteorites. In Rev. 6 "the stars of heaven fell to the earth" yet in Rev. 8 a third of the stars were darkened. Therefore we can be sure that in Rev 6 real stars did not fall and disappear.

 

The truth is, these signs in the sun and moon happen twice. When one understands this truth, they find Revelation is in perfect order and nothing has to be rearranged to fit a theory.

 

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect, and WILL be proven wrong.

 

LAMAD

 

Time will tell.  You're entitled to your interpretation.  Just don't worship the false prophet (antichrist).  We can compare notes in heaven, but I'm guessing it won't be a big deal then.

 

 

 

 

Well said.  There are so many semantic / definition issues when using end times prophecy terms that unless they are clearly, plainly defined there will be unnecessary misunderstandings...tribulation being one of them.  Context is also important.  Don't disregard context.  In Matthew 24 it seems to me that Jesus is talking about the tribulation of believers per verse 9: “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."  Because of the mark of the beast and other technologies, it will be difficult for believers to escape death.  If those days hadn't been shortened, no "life" ("believer" per context) would be saved.

 

As I see it...immediately after those days, the sixth seal is opened and believers are caught up, followed by the seventh seal which contains the trumpet / bowl judgments.  So I agree that there is a full seven years and what is cut short is the time the believers are persecuted, the "great tribulation".

 

Why would you even think of rearranging John's God given chronology? What you see is not the intent of the Author.

 

"Those days" of "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus will begin in Revelation in chapter 12 where Satan (using the Beast) goes after those living in Judea who have fled, having seen the abomination, and really get hot after chapter 14, when the mark is established and the image erected for all to worship. The days of great tribulation are at their highest in chapter 15 of Revelation, just before God unleases the plagues and vials.

 

Therefore, the seals are not a part of the 70th week, and "those days" Jesus spoke of will not begin until AFTER the abomination which takes place in chapter 11 of Revelation.

 

LAMAD

 

 

I didn't rearrange anything, just matched it up.

 

In Matthew 24:29 Jesus said:

 

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.  And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

 

The sixth seal is described:

 

I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

 

Looks like a match to me.

 

What LOOKS like a match may not BE a match, and it this case certainly is not. The signs in the sun and moon are to be seen TWICE: once at the 6th seal as the fulfillment of the Joel 2 prophecy, and again just before Jesus returns on the white horse, as the fulfillment of the Joel 3 prophecy. If you read more closely, you will see they are DIFFERENT and cannot be the same. If you study Joel, he shows us BOTH signs. They will be over 7 years apart.

 

This is one big error on the part of Van Kampen and Rosenthal, the originators of the prewrath theory; neither recogized that these signs in the sun and moon would happen twice, so in their theories they had to completely rearrange Revelation.

 

LAMAD

 

What about the stars falling from the sky?  You forgot that one.  How many times does that happen?

 

 

 

 

Well said.  There are so many semantic / definition issues when using end times prophecy terms that unless they are clearly, plainly defined there will be unnecessary misunderstandings...tribulation being one of them.  Context is also important.  Don't disregard context.  In Matthew 24 it seems to me that Jesus is talking about the tribulation of believers per verse 9: “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."  Because of the mark of the beast and other technologies, it will be difficult for believers to escape death.  If those days hadn't been shortened, no "life" ("believer" per context) would be saved.

 

As I see it...immediately after those days, the sixth seal is opened and believers are caught up, followed by the seventh seal which contains the trumpet / bowl judgments.  So I agree that there is a full seven years and what is cut short is the time the believers are persecuted, the "great tribulation".

 

Why would you even think of rearranging John's God given chronology? What you see is not the intent of the Author.

 

"Those days" of "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus will begin in Revelation in chapter 12 where Satan (using the Beast) goes after those living in Judea who have fled, having seen the abomination, and really get hot after chapter 14, when the mark is established and the image erected for all to worship. The days of great tribulation are at their highest in chapter 15 of Revelation, just before God unleases the plagues and vials.

 

Therefore, the seals are not a part of the 70th week, and "those days" Jesus spoke of will not begin until AFTER the abomination which takes place in chapter 11 of Revelation.

 

LAMAD

 

 

I didn't rearrange anything, just matched it up.

 

In Matthew 24:29 Jesus said:

 

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.  And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

 

The sixth seal is described:

 

I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

 

Looks like a match to me.

 

How does one differentiate between a blood moon, gives off reflection; and a moon which gives off no light or reflection.  Then there is a miss of the 4th Trumpet where 1/3 of the sun, moon and stars are stricken, each lose 1/3 of their light.  Then there is the 7th Bowl, where the cities of the nations collapse, where every island fled away, and there a no more mountains.  And great hailstones fell upon men.  No mention of these hailstones in the 6th Seal.

 

There is no match, identical may be a match, similar is no match.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

I've really no interest in playing semantic games.  How many times are the stars going to fall from the sky?  Of course they're not verbatim identical but they are referring to the same event, the sixth seal.  I've edited some of the orange out of the Matthew verse that may have been confusing to you.  The sixth seal is a brief event.  It does not encompass the trumpets or bowls of the seventh seal so I don't know why you even mentioned them.  The seventh seal follows the sixth seal.  As for the moon, read it like this and it all makes sense: "and the moon will not give its (normal) light."

 

Demension wrote...

 

The Coming Kingdom of the Antichrist is NOT a revived Roman Empire

 

Eph writes..

 

Right...He will rise from the Selucid portion of Alexander's kingdom...THAT was from the areas of...Turkey ,,Iran ,,,Iraq Lebanon..Syria..Jordan..a nd a small portion of Afganistan..

 

When you see those areas coming together as one..SIMULAR to what has happened in W. Europe..brace yourself...!

 

America will NOT be any of those "beasts"...! 

 

If you're talking about the 10 horns, they're only in power for an hour and aren't countries.  The only thing I see as possibly being America in prophecy is the city that the 10 horns destroy...NYC.  And that's subject to change if the UN moves it's headquarters.

America is in a sad state of decline.  Sad...but necessary I guess.  Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus!

 

Well said.  There are so many semantic / definition issues when using end times prophecy terms that unless they are clearly, plainly defined there will be unnecessary misunderstandings...tribulation being one of them.  Context is also important.  Don't disregard context.  In Matthew 24 it seems to me that Jesus is talking about the tribulation of believers per verse 9: “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."  Because of the mark of the beast and other technologies, it will be difficult for believers to escape death.  If those days hadn't been shortened, no "life" ("believer" per context) would be saved.

 

As I see it...immediately after those days, the sixth seal is opened and believers are caught up, followed by the seventh seal which contains the trumpet / bowl judgments.  So I agree that there is a full seven years and what is cut short is the time the believers are persecuted, the "great tribulation".

 

Why would you even think of rearranging John's God given chronology? What you see is not the intent of the Author.

 

"Those days" of "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus will begin in Revelation in chapter 12 where Satan (using the Beast) goes after those living in Judea who have fled, having seen the abomination, and really get hot after chapter 14, when the mark is established and the image erected for all to worship. The days of great tribulation are at their highest in chapter 15 of Revelation, just before God unleases the plagues and vials.

 

Therefore, the seals are not a part of the 70th week, and "those days" Jesus spoke of will not begin until AFTER the abomination which takes place in chapter 11 of Revelation.

 

LAMAD

 

I didn't rearrange anything, just matched it up.

In Matthew 24:29 Jesus said:

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.  And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

The sixth seal is described:

I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Looks like a match to me.

What we really want is to determine the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit. It is not that difficult if you know HIM. We really don't have to look anywhere but in Revelation to find what the mystery "great wh**re" Babylon is talking about. We have to take the CONTEXT into consideration. (What a novel idea - keeping verses in context!)

 

The CONTEXT is that during the last half of the 70th week, the man of sin turned Beast will be deceiving THE ENTIRE WORLD from the temple in JERUSALEM. It will be the worst deception EVER foisted upon the human race. He will deceive ALL in the world except those whose names are written in heaven. This will make what happened at the tower of Babel seem insignificant. It will make all the deception over the years from false religions seem insignificant, because it will be deception on a level never seen on earth. And it will originate from JERUSALEM.

 

Is it any wonder than that God calls this city of deception "Babylon?" Think about it: NO false religion in the world has ever deceived ALL. Not all of them put together has deceived all on the earth. But the deception coming from Jerusalem then will be so great it will deceive the entire world to the last man - all but those whose names are written in heaven.

 

Since it will be mystery Babylon - the city of deception - that is destroyed, the physical city of Jerusalem will be rebuilt and Jesus will most certainly be there again. NEVER AGAIN will Jerusalem be a city of deception! Mystery "Babylon" will be gone forever.

 

"The great city" is not a sea port. However, while the Beast is in control, SO MUCH riches are shipped to Israel, when the city to which all these riches were shipped is destroyed, the shippers realize their source of wealth is gone. They were made wealthy just shipping stuff to Jerusalem. The Beast, indwelt by Satan Himself, will be a master merchandiser, and will crave all things rich people crave.

 

Make no mistake: John is telling us that the very city of Jerusalem will be called mystery "Babylon the Great," but ONLY while the Beast is in power and deceiving the entire world from there.

 

LAMAD

So which city is destroyed by the 10 horns during their hour long reign? 

 

 

Salty

 

Dan 9:24 - Seventy sevens have been decreed for your people and your holy city.

 

This cannot be changed.

 

You need to look in another direction for the days being shortened, for it does not mean what you are saying it means.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Since our Lord Jesus Christ did... shorten the time, like HE said, then you go directly against what He said, and the Matt.24 Scripture.

 

So you're not just disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with our Lord Jesus Christ, for there is no other way of interpretation of what He said there in Matt.24:22, "... for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened".

 

You don't need to get testy just because you are found to be in error. OF COURSE there is another way of interpreting what Jesus said, the RIGHT interpretation. Now, let's see what Jesus REALLY said...

 

Mat. 24

¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

²² And except those days should be shortened...

 

Note that Jesus did not put a title on any period of time, such as making the entire last half of the week, "the great tribulation." That theory is man's idea, not God's. Next note that Jesus said "THOSE DAYS." The truth is, there will be "DAYS" of great tribulation. "Those days" of "great tribulation" will NOT extend to the end of the 42 months of the Beast's rule. This is the correct meaning.

 

When God our Father decides it is enough, He will send the angels with the vials of His wrath and associated plagues, which will effectively stop the hunting down and murder of the saints, and thereby will SHORTEN "those days" of "great tribulation." "Great tribulation" will be OVER when the Beast and his armies are rendered helpless and not able to hunt down and murder the saints. OF COURSE the Beast will still have his 42 months. OF COURSE the city will be trampled for 42 months. OF COURSE the two witnesses will testify for their 1260 days - and be killed just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ENDS the 70th week. OF COURSE those fleeing will have their entire 1260 days to flee and be protected.

 

The ONLY THING that will be "shortened" will be the number of days during that last 42 months where days of great tribulation are taking place -the hunting down and murder of the saints.  The 70th week will NOT be shortened. The 1260 days and 42 months will NOT be shortened.

 

LAMAD

 

Well said.  There are so many semantic / definition issues when using end times prophecy terms that unless they are clearly, plainly defined there will be unnecessary misunderstandings...tribulation being one of them.  Context is also important.  Don't disregard context.  In Matthew 24 it seems to me that Jesus is talking about the tribulation of believers per verse 9: “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."  Because of the mark of the beast and other technologies, it will be difficult for believers to escape death.  If those days hadn't been shortened, no "life" ("believer" per context) would be saved.

As I see it...immediately after those days, the sixth seal is opened and believers are caught up, followed by the seventh seal which contains the trumpet / bowl judgments.  So I agree that there is a full seven years and what is cut short is the time the believers are persecuted, the "great tribulation".