Last Daze
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Posts posted by Last Daze
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The Harlot which depicts Babylon is sitting on the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns, which are the 7 kingdoms starting from Egypt to the last which will turn into the 8th.
I think there are only 7 kingdoms, otherwise I would have expected 8 heads. I realize that its somewhat ambiguous but the way I see the "is an eighth king and is of the seven" reference is this:
- The beast being referred to is a demon because he comes up out of the abyss.
- When he is released from the abyss he starts to manipulate world events to bring his "feet of iron and clay" multinational kingdom into power. (I relate this to the first seal and feel that its been underway for a while.)
- Since there is no real "king" or no real single position of authority of this multinational group that he brought about, the demon is himself, by default, considered an "eighth" since he basically rules it.
- After the ten horns destroy the world's capital, the false prophet (antichrist) takes away their authority and declares himself ruler, becoming the seventh, thanks to the demonic beast.
I'm not terribly dogmatic about that but it seems to fit with everything else as I see it.
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God never raptured the Israelites when God was unleashing the 8 Plagues but I get your point, either way we can agree that God will protect us
I agree. He took Lot and family out of Sodom, He had Noah build an ark, the Israelites sheltered in place. Three different ways. Why not a fourth?
I personally believe in a 6th seal rapture but, as you say, God will protect us.
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That's the attitude I find a lot here, like, "It could be Jerusalem?!? Oh, God forbid, let's look somewhere else!" But based on the parameters of the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation it cannot be anywhere else.
I'm not excluding Jerusalem as a possibility. My understanding of prophecy has evolved over the past 35 years and I expect, as we get closer, that it will continue. I will adjust the way I understand prophecy when I feel that a viewpoint is better substantiated than one I presently have. While I feel that there is better support for a different city, I don't disregard what you've posted. I keep it in mind. If I err in my understanding of prophecy then may the Holy Spirit lead me into the truth and show me the things to come.
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Been here before on this matter, and still no one seems to care about Ezekiel 16 where God first called Jerusalem a 'harlot' for falling away from Him instead to false worship.
What is it about today's Jerusalem that many of you are so in love with? The Jerusalem on earth today is still in bondage per Apostle Paul in Galatians. Only The Jerusalem above still in the Heavenly today is free, and is the Jerusalem all those in Christ Jesus are to aspire to.
When The LORD in His Word has already warned His people about the coming false messiah to Jerusalem to attempt to play God, with animal sacrifices and the Old Testament worship started again and thereafter an idol abomination, which both are against Christ Jesus, then how could someone think their Salvation will be in that kind of Jerusalem?!?
I simply refuse... to be fooled by those who come here to preach today's Jerusalem = Salvation type messages. Our Lord Jesus instead told His servants there in Jerusalem to get out when they see the abomination of desolation setup there.
Why do you think I'm in love with Jerusalem? Because I don't think it's Babylon? I've never equated salvation with Jerusalem. I don't think I've even heard that message. I just don't think its Babylon. That's all.
What concerns me is that if NYC is that city when the seven year agreement is made then there will only be 3-3.5 years to evangelize that city before it's destruction...based on the way I see things. This post is for thoughts on the idea.
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Hi Sister and thanks for your thoughts on the subject.
This capital city is a spiritual city called Babylon the great, where those who have not come out of Babylon dwell. Not a physical city, but the whole world.
I agree that there is a spiritual aspect to Babylon that is global, and I also think it refers to a literal city. I'm not sure if you've read post #4. My thoughts there on Babylon are: Its my understanding that the term "Babylon" is used to describe rebellion against God, or practicing ungodliness. The tower of Babel was built in order to keep from being scattered when God said to fill the earth. God came down and saw what they had built, confused their language, and they were scattered. Its believed that the tower of Babel was used as a center of all kinds of ungodliness. Years later Babylon likewise gained a reputation as a center of great ungodliness and the term "Babylon" became an easy reference for such a city. Referring to a city allegorically isn't uncommon as in Revelation 11:8. Peter also did it in a likely reference to Rome in 1 Peter 5:13. I know there are many interpretations of Mystery Babylon. Whatever your understanding, make sure it includes this: "And in her [babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.” Revelation 18:24
Correct. It would be interesting to know who those three turn out to be, but after the little horn rises, there will only be 10 kings.
Agree, these 10 gain control of the world. At some point, when the little horn rises to power, he will lead them (the 10), and then they work together. Always together.
The ten horns have one purpose and they give their power and authority to the beast that comes up out the abyss, which is a demon, and different from the little horn in Daniel 7, which is the false prophet (antichrist). See post #13 at the bottom where it says On a side note...
The 10 are only destroying the system of Babylon that we have now, only because they are the ones to bring in a new system, which will lead to all receiving the mark of the beast. They will destroy this system through the economy, in other words, make the world go bankrupt through their dark schemes.
I agree that the ten horns bring a new economic system and replace the "old order" with their new one. The false prophet takes control of their system and requires the mark for people to access their "money".
Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.This is a good exhortation. After the literal city is destroyed, and order is restored, comes the time of martyrdom (fifth seal). It will be decision time for those who profess faith in Christ. If we untangle ourselves from worldliness now, and long for the appearing of our Lord, its an easy decision.
Thanks again Sister and blessings.
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If you're looking at any other city in the world other than Jerusalem as that "great city", you're just not going to understand what all those Rev. metaphors are pointing to for the end.
Jerusalem is where those behind one world government will setup their ruling headquarters over all the kings of the earth, because that is where the coming pseudo-Christ is going to set himself up as king of the world and as Christ.
The idea of Rev. Babylon being a port city just because those in ships look far off at her destruction is taking a metaphorical description of the Rev. Babylon concept and trying to make it literal. God is using Babylon in Rev. as a symbol, and that means go back to His OT prophets and note the associations with historical Babylon. But not just Babylon, but Tyre also, and any other of the 'beast' kingdoms of history, for that's where many of those Rev. symbols are from.
In Rev.18:13, notice one of her merchandise is the "souls of men". That is pointing to the history of pagan worship throughout the earth's historical beast kingdoms, and where paganism first began (in ancient Sumer-Babylonia), and directly to the false worship of the coming Antichrist in Jerusalem with the final beast kingdom on earth.
In Ezek.28 we are given a parable about Satan, but God starts off speaking about the prince and king of Tyrus (means 'rock'). But He soon goes into the topic of His having created Satan as an anointed cherub that covereth (guard of God's throne), and how he was originally perfect in his ways in God's Eden until iniquity was found in him. Tied within that description of Satan's original iniquity is the idea of 'traffik' (commerce).
Per history the rock island of Tyre was an ancient port city of world commerce off the coast of Lebanon. It had double walls around the island reaching up to 150 ft. God gave Alexander to conquer it, and the only way he could do so was by land. He had to move earth out to it, building a land bridge for access, which that land bridge still stands today. So that is where the ideas in Rev.18 about symbolic Babylon for the end is linking to the ideas of merchants and traffik (commerce); it's from the idea of commerce from the island of Tyre in relation to Satan who is the false 'rock' (for their rock is not as our Rock - Deut.32).
I've said it many times before, and I'll say it again. If a brother tries to understand our Lord's Book of Revelation without first having done a thorough study in all of God's Word, the many symbols in His Revelation will not be understood. It's because those symbols first originate especially in the OT Books of God's prophets.
About the "ten horns" -- in both the Books of Daniel and Revelation we are shown they are ten kings. In Daniel the 3 kings that the "little horn" subdues does not mean a destruction, but an overtaking of their power. The three kings will still exist, but at a lower ruling function is what I see.
Something else, in Rev.12:3-4 we are shown an old beast kingdom that had only seven crowns in contrast to the one in Rev.13:1 for the end that will have ten crowns. That one of Rev.12:3-4 was when Satan first rebelled against God in the time of old (i.e., before this present world). Ezekiel 31 is giving a parable type description of that time, in the same kind of language like how Ezek.28 is pointing to Satan in the time of old.
The reason Rev.17 says the ten kings receive no kingdom as yet, is because they do not come to power until the beast king (Antichrist) comes to power, and then they rule with him for "one hour". You should know what that "one hour" is pointing to, for it's about the coming tribulation time. It is given in the symbolic sense, not a literal hour, but as a timeframe that the beast rules, the 42 months of Rev.13 is the actual time amount. That is the eleventh hour before the midnight of Christ's coming per the ten virgin parable. It's the last hour of the laborers of the field that got paid the same for one hour that the other laborers got paid for working all day, etc. Got it?
As for the "waters", in Rev.17:15 our Lord Jesus is revealing what the "sea" of Rev.13:1 represents in relation to that 1st beast. It's a kingdom beast, and it's made up of peoples, multitudes, tongues, and nations. That's all that's pointing to, not a city, but a kingdom over all the earth.
I agree that Jerusalem is significant in end times prophecy with the false prophet (antichrist) being there along with the two witnesses, the temple, etc. but identifying it as Babylon is a strained interpretation in my opinion for the following reasons:
- The initial symbolism of Babylon in Rev 17 is the great harlot riding the beast from the sea. The angel then begins to tell John the mystery of the harlot by explaining the symbolism. Another angel then comes down from heaven in Rev 18 and continues with a detailed description of what can only be described as a port city of tremendous commerce and wealth. I don't think that explaining symbolism with more symbolism is really an explanation.
- I agree that the 10 horns in Daniel and Revelation are referring to the same 10 kings. In Daniel, what the "small horn" does is described as: "and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it", "and before which three of them fell"; and "and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings." In order to subdue, or bring under control, there has to be an uprising. Three of the horns fell, not only fell, but were pulled out by the roots. I see that as the three horns bringing forces to bear against the false prophet and him calling down fire from heaven and destroying them. The other seven see that and say “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?” Regime change. At any rate, the first three are gone so the "great city" must of necessity have already been destroyed before the false prophet comes on the scene.
- If the ten horns really reign for forty-two months, why does it say an hour? Why not just come out and say forty-two months or time, times and half a time? Its made clear in other places. Why obfuscate this one? Reinterpreting specific time durations is a slippery slope that I want to avoid. If the 10 horns reign for one hour (forty two months) and they destroy Jerusalem (Babylon) in one hour (forty-two months) ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’ then Jerusalem is on fire for forty-two months while the false prophet is ruling from there? That doesn't make sense to me.
- The "waters" in Rev 17:15 is in a completely different context from the "sea" of Rev 13:1. I don't see anything that relates them to being the same thing. If anything, I think the beast that comes up out of the sea is a contrast to the beast that comes up out of the earth indicating that the first is a demon and the second is a human.
On a side note...I was recently comparing the ten horns as described in Revelation 17 with the ten horns of the fourth beast in Daniel 7 and noticed something that I thought might be of interest.
Revelation 17:13 says that the ten horns have one purpose and they give their power and authority to the beast that comes up out of the abyss. This is reiterated and expounded upon four verses later in Revelation 17:17. It says that God put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose and by giving their kingdom to the beast.
Compare that to Daniel 7:24 where it says that another horn arises after the ten and will pull three of them out by the roots.
This seems to indicate that the beast from the abyss in Revelation 17 is different from the horn that arises after the ten in Daniel 7. If they were the same, then why would three of them need to be subdued? They have a common purpose and they give their kingdom to the beast. God put it in their hearts to do so.
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Where in the Holy Bible does it say that some spirit devil man is to be born into human flesh? All of the responses given here use scriptures from parabolic writings like the Book of Revelation, which is clearly written in parables, but used as if they are to be fulfilled literally. So please, make this as easy as possible and just give me one... one verse that is a clear prophecy for a spirit devil man to be born in human flesh. Thank you!
The reason no one can provide a verse is because there is not one verse in the Holy Bible that directly says that a spirit devil man shall be born into human flesh; if there was then "other one" could have pointed me to it.
And what this means is that the Antichrist Translation is pure conjecture, based upon people's assumed interpretation of very unclear verses. And to give the few verses that are used more support and strength they cut them out of Biblical context and paste them together, and then people are taught that the all of the verses that speak of some sinful man near the end of the world are referring to a spirit devil man in the State of Israel.
The fact is, the Antichrist Translation is a teaching that separates verses from many unclear writings about the end times (parables), and then they are all pasted together to form a translation. But this is not good. It would be better to wait for those End Time parables to be unveiled all together. Is it really good Biblical practice to cut and paste verses from writings that are little understood? I think not.
So what I am saying is that the Antichrist teaching is all guesswork, based upon verses that have been cut and pasted together--parables that had not been unveiled. The parables are pasted together into a scenario, and that scenario has a spirit devil man appearing out of thin air to fulfill that scenario. It is all manmade guesswork!
Source: endtimesalert.com
Why don't you expound upon what you're talking about because at this point, I really don't have a clue. Some scripture references would be nice as well.
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I see numerology as being meaningless, if that's what you're talking about. You can essentially extrapolate a number or set of numbers to mean anything. Without any "rules" or "givens" you're basically adrift, left to your own imagination.
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Daniel 2 says the Iron Empire (Rome) will be split into two feet when it becomes a "divided" empire. History says that at the fall of Rome, the Roman empire split into two parts, Papal Europe in the west, and Byzantium (later Ottoman) Istanbul in the east. These two feet are prophesied to continue to dominate right until the feet are destroyed. You could say that these two feet represent the West, and Turkey... ie in modern days its the current NATO alliance.
Now in the times that this final ten toes beast is set up according to Revelation 13, the beast will resemble the leopard. The leopard was Alexander's Greek Empire. So if we look at the countries that resemble the borders of the Greek Empire, we see that these ten countries include Turkey.
So if Turkey is prophesied to be one of the two Roman powers that dominate, and Turkey will be part of a greater union, the natural assumption is that Turkey will lead that union if it is to retain the role of one of the two dominating "feet" of Rome.
Combine this with modern politics, where you see that the west is eliminating all competition in the Islamic world until Turkey is the sole remaining Islamic superpower. Add to this the rhetoric of Adnan Oktar, a leading Islamic religious figure who is promoting a Turkish Union to bring world peace between Islam, Jews and Christians ... and everything looks like we are heading there rapidly.
I guess that I don't see how any group of nations can qualify for the 10 horns based on the description of them in the original post, primarily, "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour." Revelation 17:12.
I see it more as a covert group of 10 that are associated with nations or nation groups that plan to rule economically. Their reign is short due to the false prophet usurping their authority.
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30 “I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
31 “The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.
32 “And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Will be delivered;
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
There will be those who escape,
As the Lord has said,
Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.Joel 2:30-32
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I completely agree that there will be an Islamic Union at the forefront of world politics, except where we disagree is that I believe it will be a west-friendly Jew-friendly Union set up by the west. You Americans seem to be completely unaware how absolutely dominant you are in world politics. Any Islamic country that ever dares to compete .. can be snuffed out in a week.
While your media and your mega-preachers feed you images of the rising Islamic beast, your own hard earned tax dollars are currently creating a west-friendly beast empire.
Thanks for the perspective. Its always good to hear how someone outside the country sees things. I've been thinking about the role of Islam in the end times, what it might be. This may be a long shot but...after the false prophet (antichrist) issues the "worship the image or die" ultimatum there are going to be a lot (millions in my estimation) of people around the world who are going to be beheaded (per the fifth seal). I can just hear the false prophet asking if there are any volunteers to behead these infidels? To which he gets a resounding, "That's what we do best!". Of course, that's speculation, but the task is going to fall to someone.
I guess we'll see as things unfold.
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Watch to see where they move the UN headquarters to. If they move it.
I agree. The U.N. / NYC consideration is based on the assumption that we are quite close to a seven year agreement. I think the "model" still applies and that the 10 horns will manipulate it to achieve an economic infrastructure whereby they control the world's finances. Then they no longer have need of it so they destroy its capital, wherever it is, to demonstrate that they are now in control.
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I believe Rev 17:18 defines this capital, using the present tense. It says this is the city that rules over the kings of the land. This was written when Rome ruled over kings. I believe we need look no further than Rome. I go a bit further and define this "city" as currently Papal Rome and its domain of Europe. Thus it can be seen as Papal Europe with its dominant world trade, and its EU/Papal alliance.
The ten horns are ten Middle Eastern countries that will arise in a new Turkish Union.
It uses the present tense in a future context. Rev 17:17 says of the ten horns: For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose. Did that happen in the first century? I see it as relative to the context of a future event.
Concerning Rome...
Why are there two different prophecies in Daniel that talk about the same thing? I believe its because they have a different emphasis. The great statue seems to emphasize more the physical nature of the kingdoms by the materials used to describe them and their succession. The prophecy of the four beasts is more from the perspective of the demonic influence used to grant dominion to the kingdoms. Let me explain: the fourth kingdom in the great statue is seen as two separate and distinct things, legs of iron, and feet of an iron and clay mix. The fourth kingdom in Daniel 7 is seen as one beast. From a natural standpoint, the legs of iron can only be seen as a separate kingdom from the feet of iron and clay. The reason they are described as the fourth kingdom and not the fourth and fifth kingdoms is because they both come into existence as a result of the fourth beast in Daniel 7. Geography is not a factor. The common denominator is their origin, the demonic prince. The "legs of iron" was largely European. The "feet of iron and clay" will be global. The feet of iron and clay depict a conglomerate of nations. This group of nations undergoes a transformation when the ten horns destroy it's headquarters, the city which reigns over the kings of the earth. That's why I don't think Rome plays a major role.
Concerning Papal Rome/Europe...
I've seen a lot of people trying to pin the "Babylon" tail on the "Catholic" donkey. They should think more "big picture". Its my understanding that the term "Babylon" is used to describe rebellion against God, or practicing ungodliness. The tower of Babel was built in order to keep from being scattered when God said to fill the earth. God came down and saw what they had built, confused their language, and they were scattered. Its believed that the tower of Babel was used as a center of all kinds of ungodliness. Years later Babylon likewise gained a reputation as a center of great ungodliness and the term "Babylon" became an easy reference for such a city. Referring to a city allegorically isn't uncommon as in Revelation 11:8. Peter also did it in a likely reference to Rome in 1 Peter 5:13. I know there are many interpretations of Mystery Babylon. Whatever your understanding, make sure it includes this: "And in her [babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.” Revelation 18:24
I'm curious as to how you came to the conclusion of:The ten horns are ten Middle Eastern countries that will arise in a new Turkish Union.
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I have some thoughts on the world's capital that I'd like some feedback on. These thoughts are based on the seven headed, ten horned beast being a demon and the false prophet being a human aka Antichrist.
The ten horns of the seven-headed, ten-horned beast are described as such:
"The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour." Revelation 17:12.
What do they do during their short reign?
" And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire." Revelation 17:16
And who is this harlot that they destroy?
"The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.” Revelation 17:18
There are some interesting observations to make here especially when you tie in the prophecy of the four beasts in Daniel 7:
The ten horns are not heads of state i.e. they have not yet received a kingdom.
The ten horns have acquired weapons of mass destruction because they are capable of destroying an entire city with fire.
A world government is already in place when the ten horns have their short moment of glory. I say that because there's a world capital, a city that reigns over the kings of the earth.
Bring in what we know from Daniel 7 and we can also add the following observations:
A small horn comes up among the ten horns and uproots (subdues) three of them. Daniel 7:8
The small horn becomes larger (more powerful) than the other horns after he subdues the three. Daniel 7:20
Based on this, I think its reasonable to conclude the following:
The ten horns work behind the scenes to gain control of the world. At some point, they announce their takeover and destroy the world's capital. Shortly thereafter, the false prophet nullifies their authority. That doesn't sit well with them and three of them bring forces to bear against him. He subdues them.
Knowing that there is an economic aspect to the end times, i.e. the mark required to buy and sell, the takeover by the ten horns will likely be a takeover of the world's economies. This would explain how ten "non heads of state" could control the world and how their authority could easily be usurped by one person.
The world's capital is described as:
And he said to me, “The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues." Revelation 17:15
"'for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!’ And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance, and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What city is like the great city?’" Revelation 18:17-18
Based on these verses, the world's capital is a port city that appears to be a melting pot of sorts.
I've been considering the notion that the final world government starts off as the feet of iron and clay in the prophecy of the great statue in Daniel 2, an imagery that could easily describe the current U.N. which would make the world's capital New York City. Thoughts? -
Thanks you two for your thoughts on the subject. While I still think the trio consists of Satan, the demonic prince of Rome, and the false prophet/Antichrist (demon, demon, human), I'll keep what you've told me here in mind.
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The precedent for some symbols in Revelation can be found in Daniel. This is especially true when comparing Daniel 7 with Revelation 13. Both mention the leopard, the lion, the bear and the great beast, and yet in Daniel 7 these are described as four kingdoms. Daniel 8 also associates large animals with kingdoms/empires. Daniel 7 and 8 also give us insight into the nature of horns, horns being smaller divisions of a greater region/empire.
I personally feel its safe to conclude the two beasts of Revelation 13 are two kingdoms/empires, given the precedent set in Daniel 7 and 8.
Taking this symbolism and applying it to Rev 17, we see that the beast with the ten divisions (ten horns) arose from the bottomless pit, which is normally seen as a dark demonic place. This kingdom was and is not, which means the kingdom had ceased to exist when Revelation was written. So to define the beast out of the sea, we must look for a country that had disappeared by the end of the first century AD, and yet would re-arise from a dark demonic place. Its possible that this is mere symbolism for the country arising out of the depths of despair (a deep dark place). It is also possible that this dark demonic place is symbolic of this country re-arising via motives of a dark and demonic religion (something like freemasonry). Freemasonry specifically wishes to rebuild the temple, their rituals closely related to "Solomon's temple" , and yet their rituals also being secretive and full of religious connotations.
So to define this beast empire, we must look for a country that had disappeared, and yet re-appears. Its re-appearing must be expected by believers, but is a shock to the rest of the world (ref Rev 17:8). This country could arise from the depths of despair, or possibly from the motivation of a dark secretive religion. It arises from the sea, which traditionally refers to the Mediterranean Sea.
Again, is there any precedent for kingdoms coming up out of the abyss or being thrown into the lake of fire, any mention of it in the Bible? There is for demons being cast into and released from the abyss. That's why I identify the beast from the sea as a demon and not a human or kingdom or anything else. I understand the symbolism of Daniel 7 and agree that it is reflected in the description of that beast, along with the seven heads and ten horns of Satan. We know from Daniel 10 that certain kingdoms are influenced into a position of dominion by certain demons. The symbology in Rev 13:1 reflects the involvement of Satan and the first three beasts in Daniel 7. The same demon that caused Rome to exercise dominion is the one that comes up out of the sea. His kingdom starts off as the feet of iron and clay and then at some point, ten leaders briefly take over, followed by the rise of the false prophet (Antichrist).
Whether freemasonry will be involved or not, I have no idea.
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Our Lord Jesus showed us when the Judgment is for those born in the flesh; it's after His thousand years reign. He also showed us that the prince of this world has already been judged, and that the lake of fire is prepared for him and his angels. So why would you need more in order to believe that?
Because you haven't supported your assumption that "no flesh shall be judged before the end of the 1000 years", an assumption that has led to at least these four points (if I understand what you're saying correctly) which you've also not provided support for:
- Kingdoms rise up out of the abyss.
- Kingdoms will be cast into the lake of fire.
- The role that a demon may take on is an entity that is separate and distinct from the demon.
- Such "role" will be cast into the lake of fire.
When an interpretation is offered that isn't supported I find that problematic.
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Where the idea of roles comes from is because no flesh man is judged and sentenced to the lake of fire until after Christ's thousand years reign. There is no Scripture to show otherwise, so that's a hard Biblical fact we can rely on. At this point today, Scripture reveals that only Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish, which is why the idea of 'perdition' is one of Satan's titles (Apollyon in Rev.9).
Because we're shown the false prophet goes into the "lake of fire" at the start... of Christ's thousand years reign, we can be certain that role will not be played by any flesh born man, because of the above time of judgment. Another connection with this idea of who has already been judged and sentenced is how our Lord Jesus gives us clues as to the Antichrist's identity, showing us he will not be any flesh man.
The idea that the coming Antichrist for the end of this world must be some flesh man is actually a tradition from men. It's based on their own ideas of who or what the Antichrist should be, not really bothering to align with certain Biblical points, this judgment/sentencing point being just one of them.
Another Biblical point their flesh Antichrist idea does't align with is the great signs, wonders, and miracles he is to work to cause the majority of the whole world to believe on him in place of Christ. This is a very specific Biblical point, because it was declared 3 times for emphasis about the level of deceptive power he will do that no flesh man on earth has ever done (excepting our Lord Jesus at His 1st coming). But the majority just skip this Biblical requirement of the prophecy in favor of playing the flesh Antichrist roulette wheel.
Again, is there any scripture that would preclude the judgment of a human (false prophet) at the return of Christ and and have him thrown immediately into the lake of fire...something to the effect of "no human shall enter the lake of fire until after the 1000 years"? Now THAT would be a hard biblical fact we could rely on. The mere omission of it does not make it a fact by any means. Revelation 19:11 reads: "And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war." Clearly He is a righteous executioner and judge and if he sees fit to judge the human false prophet on the spot and cast him into the lake of fire then that's what he'll do, and the way I see it, that's what he does.
What there's no scripture to show is a kingdom coming up out of the abyss, or a role or kingdom getting tossed into the lake of fire, at least I haven't found any.
Why do you not think that a demon could use a human to channel supernatural power? Something supernatural was going on in Egypt about plague time with their magicians. The fact that it hasn't happened in a while doesn't mean that it can't happen again. The demonic prince from the abyss is given a mouthpiece, the false prophet. The false prophet performs great signs and wonders in the presence of the demon prince, a point made three times. Sounds like channelling to me.
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Since Rev.13:2 with pointers to the beast kingdoms of Dan.7 is used as a descriptor of the first beast that comes up out of the sea of Rev.13:1, and... Jesus revealed in Rev.17:15 that the "waters" represent peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues, it makes that first beast a kingdom beast.
But Rev.13:11 foward reveals the second beast "another beast", is a person over that first beast. The first beast has "seven heads" which are "seven mountains" per Rev.17. The beast of Rev.12:3-4 when Satan first rebelled also had "seven heads".
When Rev.17 uses the 'beast' metaphor it's more difficult to distinguish between the idea of a beast kingdom vs. a beast king. But that's what must be done in order to know what those passages in Rev.17 are talking about. The subject between the two different beast types changes quickly there.
Notice in Rev.19:20 the false prophet wrought miracles and deceived, which is what the 2nd beast ("another beast") of Rev.13:11 does, making both of them the same one. The beast in Rev.19:20 is shown as separate from the false prophet though, which could only then apply to the 1st beast, a kingdom. Especially notice... both of those go into the "lake of fire" at the START of Christ's thousand years reign, but not the dragon (Satan).
As of today, and even all the way to the end of Christ's future thousand years reign, no flesh man is judged and sentenced to perish in the "lake of fire". That will only occur at the end of Christ's thousand years reign. Right now only Satan and his angels have been judged and sentenced to perish already, none others have yet.
So who is that "false prophet" of Rev.19:20, because it cannot be any flesh man? That also applies to the 2nd beast ("another beast") of Rev.13:11 forward. The reality is that false prophet is... Satan, as he also is that "another beast" who works those miracles in the sight of men on earth. The false prophet and 2nd beast are 'roles' that Satan will play for the end, and those roles along with the beast kingdom will be destroyed in the "lake of fire" at Christ's coming, but not the dragon (Satan) yet.
Thanks for your thoughts on the subject Salty.
Daniel 10 gives us a glimpse into the anatomy of certain kingdoms. I think this applies to at least the four beast kingdoms in Daniel 7 and probably the seven heads of the dragon, Satan, as well. There are certain demons, the prince of Persia, prince of Greece, etc. that grant dominion to earthly kingdoms. Daniel 7:12 indicates that there's a "dominion" that's separate from the kingdom. So you have...demon comes on the scene...earthly kingdom forms...demon is taken away...earthly kingdom starts its decline. At some point, the prince of Rome was taken away and cast into the abyss, a holding place of demons. I see Revelation 13:1 as this demon coming back up out of the abyss. Since all of the deception of wickedness is brought to bear in the last days, its reasonable to assume that the demon princes of Babylon, Persia, and Greece will all be involved. The symbology of this beast (Rev 13:2) having seven heads and ten horns and characteristics of the first three beasts in Daniel 7 indicates their involvement. Satan gives this beast his power, throne and great authority (symbolized by the 7 heads and 10 horns); the demon princes likewise give what they have (symbolized by the mix of animals). I think that's why this beast(kingdom) is described in Daniel 7 as different from the rest, dreadful, terrifying, and extremely strong. The only reason that I can think of why Satan would ever give such to anyone at anytime is that this demon is in a unique place to influence world affairs and Satan realizes that his time is short; he basically has no other choice. It's an "all-in" situation.
I see the sea that this beast comes up out of as different from the "waters" that the harlot sits on. The sea, because of its seemingly endless depth would be a fitting metaphor for the abyss. Compare Romans 10:6,7 with Deuteronomy 30:12,13. The comparison, while not an exact parallel, is compelling. The "sea" and the "waters" are mentioned in two different contexts as well. The first (Rev 13:1) I see as where the demon is coming up out of the abyss. The second (Rev 17) is in reference to the harlot and her judgment. While I believe that they are the same beast, the descriptions vary slightly which I believe is for contextual emphesis. That's why I feel that the "waters" is different from the "sea".
One of the differences between Satan's 7/10 and the beast's 7/10 is that Satan's crowns are on the 7 heads and the beast's crowns are on the 10 horns. The seven heads are seven mountains (kingdoms) and seven kings per Rev 17. I see this as seven risings of demonic influence and seven resulting kingships. Its not unusual for mountains to describe kingdoms, as in the great statue (Daniel 2:35,44). Satan, being the grand poobah of demons, expresses his authority through these seven heads (kingdoms) and thus the crowns. The beast from the sea works through ten leaders to demonstrate his authority by destroy the world's capital per Rev 17 so that's why he has crowns on the horns. Then there's the beast that comes up out of the earth. He exercises all the authority of the beast from the abyss with a qualifier..."in his presence". Coming out of the earth seems to indicate that he's a human, and performing great signs and wonders in the presence of the first beast indicates that he's a channel for supernatural displays of power. Like you, I also see this beast as the false prophet. I also see him as the man of sin in 2 Thess 2, and who people refer to as the Antichrist.
I know that the lake of fire was prepared for the devil and his angels per Matt 25:41, and like you mentioned, after the thousand year reign of Christ the "goats" are cast into the lake of fire. But what would preclude a human (the false prophet) from being judged at the return of Christ and cast immediately into the lake of fire? We're not talking about an ordinary, run of the mill human after all. He would be a "first fruits" of sorts.
I've never heard of "roles" or "kingdoms" going into the lake of fire. Roles seem a bit abstract. The demons responsible for the rise of kingdoms going into the lake of fire I can grasp, but the kingdoms themselves I've not heard of. I know there's not a lot of info on demons in the Bible and we're left to fill in some blanks but I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.
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btw welcome and I'm looking forward to getting to know you.... I don't mean to sound like some thread guard dog LoL.
Thanks. I've edited the original post.
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Since God is not willing that any should perish, I see Joel 2:32 as applicable as long as one has breath.
“And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered..."
Granted, it's not likely that many will see through the strong delusion but I think its possible.
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I don't think you will find that acceptable with very many people here. You can start threads but you don't control them. Its one of the reasons this is such a great place. Threads take on a life of there own.
Never meant to insinuate that I controlled the thread. Just some thoughts for trying to keep it relevent and on-topic. Obviously, people can do whatever.
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Most likely the beasts are two fallen angels and a hybrid..... demons are the disembodied spirits of the nephilim so to be functional it would have to have a human body to possess Since Satan has always been I don't see how it can be the one that was, is not and is to be. More likely Apollo or Azazel.
Not to be tacky but it's kind of bold with only seven posts to come here and start making rules for posting..... just to let you know my thoughts.
My "rules" for posting only pertain to this thread, of course. I just find that it helps keep things relevant to the topic. I don't see them as unreasonable but if you do, let me know. Its true that I'm new to this forum but not to forums.
I know that there's not a lot of info on demons in the Bible but is there anywhere that supports that they are disembodied spirits of nephilim?
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Just curious, Why are you opposed to copy and pasting or adding links if that answers your questions?
Beast may also be describing a KINGDOM and not just a person.
Links etc would be welcomed if I had a question. I was more interested in discussion. When someone can state their viewpoint in their own words and provide support it shows they've put some thought in it and it tends to be a more focused discussion.
I've not heard of a kingdom coming up out of the abyss. Is there any support for that?
World's Capital and the 10 Horns
in Prophecy
Posted
We're not too far apart in our understanding. I'd substitute United Nations for Great Britain though. Time will tell.