ghtan
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Posts posted by ghtan
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On 9/25/2018 at 12:23 AM, WilliamL said:
I posed this question (in red, below) to the Prophecy Exchange, but they whiffed on it. So now am posting it here.
The 1260 and 1290/1335 Days
Dan. 11:45 And he [the King of the North] shall plant the tents of his pavilion between [the] seas at the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. 12:1 And at that time…there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time…
Matt. 24:15 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place… 21 …then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time…
The above passages describe the key events that lead to the Great Tribulation. The passages below describe the ensuing time period, that of the persecution against the Israelite peoples. (The Book of Daniel says nothing about the Church, which was a “mystery” yet to be revealed to both Israel and the angels. Rom. 16:25; Col. 1:26; 1 Pet. 1:12)
Dan. 12:6 …How long [shall it be to] the end of these wonders? 7 …[it shall be] for a time, times, and an half [= 3½ times/1260 days]; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished. … 11 And from the time [that] the daily/continual shall be taken away, and an abomination of desolation is set up, [there shall be] 1290 days. 12 Blessed [is] he who waits, and comes to the 1335 days.
Dan. 7:25 And he [the Little Horn] shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they [the saints/holy people] shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time [= 3½ times/1260 days].
Rev. 13:5 And there was given unto it [the Beast] a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and authority was given unto him [the Mouth/spokesman] to continue forty [and] two months [= 3½ times/1260 days]. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, … 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them…
So now to the question: we see above that the period of persecution of Israel shall be for 1260 days, but the period from the beginning of the Great Tribulation, commencing when the Abomination of Desolation is set up, shall be 1290 days until Israel is delivered. Or possibly 1335 days.
1290 – 1260 = 30 days. 1335 – 1260 = 75 days. Is not one of these periods, 30 or 75 days, therefore the length of the Great Tribulation, “immediately after” (Matt. 24:29) which the Lord descends to gather out His elect in the Rapture?
(For a different look at why I believe there will be a “short trib,” see my blog post Forty Days.)
I think the only way to make sense to these dates is to read them symbolically. Many dates in prophecy are symbolic. So I think the 1260 days represents the centuries of suffering for the Jews since AD70 until 1948 when Israel became a nation again. The next 30 days represents a complete month, i.e. a much shorter but complete period, between 1948 to the start of the Great Tribulation. And the last 45 days represent the period of the Great Tribulation, which is a complete month plus an incomplete second month which shows God will cut short those days for the sake of the elect. Since the periods are symbolic, we should not infer that the 45 days will actually be longer than the 30 days.
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23 hours ago, Adstar said:
I have a totally different belief..
I believe the Gog - Magog war will happen after the 1000 mellenium rule of Jesus.. So it will happen 1000 years after the return of Jesus..
Revelation 20: KJV
7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, {8} And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. {9} And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. {10} And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
I agree with Adstar. One reason for the millennium is so that some of the OT prophecies about Israel which have yet to be fulfilled can finally come about. This is one of them.
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14 hours ago, Last Daze said:
In Rev 10 John was just told that when the seventh angel sounded, the mystery of God is finished. He probably thought he was finished writing but was told he must prophesy more. The "more" is what follows and provides additional details concerning the seals and plagues.
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The measuring of the body of Christ is accomplished during the 42 months or 1260 days. I see a series of three different measurings during that time:
- The mark and the image - the initial segregation which separates those who keep the word of God's perseverance from those who don't.
- The plagues - segregates the deceived followers of the false prophet into those who repent of their idolatry and those who don't.
- The death of the two witnesses - the cessation of the plagues segregates those who repented into those who were sincere and those who weren't. Blessed are those who keep their garments.
Everyone will have been "measured" into one or the other camp when Jesus returns. The results of the measuring are to be determined.
Whatever John is meant to prophesy again, the point is that we are not told what it is. It may be the rest of Revelation but that is an interpretation. Your contention was that we are not told the measurement of the temple. Hence there is no difference; we need to interpret both.
I think it is obvious John intends the temple literally. First, 'temple' elsewhere in Revelation is always literal. Second, a measuring rod is always used to measure literal distances (see esp 21:15). Third, the altar always furnishes a literal temple in Rev. I don’t think John can make it any more plain.
If we spiritualise the temple, we also have to spiritualise the measuring rod, the altar, the outer court, etc.. The more things that are spiritualised, the more forced and less convincing the interpretation becomes. Btw, why not spiritualise the 42 months and the two witnesses too? Not doing so makes the choice arbitrary and again raises the question of consistency.
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13 hours ago, Last Daze said:
- Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months." Revelation 11:1-2
Verses 1 and 2 are John's instructions for measuring. Did he do as instructed? If so, where are the measurements? If not, why not?
Are we told what John is to prophesy again in 10:11? If the temple were the body of Christ, are we told its 'measurement'?
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18 hours ago, Last Daze said:
The ungodly waging war against the saints for 42 months happens on earth.
So are the war, famine and plague in ch 6 but each is preceded by the opening of seals in heaven.
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12 hours ago, Last Daze said:
- Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. 2 Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months." Revelation 11:1-2
The forty-two months is the time that the false prophet wages war against the saints per Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5.
How would equating the temple in verse 1 with the temple in heaven conflict with that interpretation of verse 2?
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16 hours ago, Last Daze said:
I'd be inclined to agree if it wasn't for 11:2.
How do you interpret 11:2?
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On 3/15/2018 at 3:29 AM, Last Daze said:
Ever since Jesus shed His blood on the cross, the new covenant began. Central to new covenant teaching is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for those who believe in Jesus. Consequently, believers are referred to as the temple of God because He dwells within us through His Spirit. Collectively, we as the body of Christ are His temple as well. God’s temple is where He dwells. Any reference to the temple of God during the time of the new covenant is a reference to the body of Christ, either corporately or to the individual members, because that’s where God dwells.
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Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it.” Revelation 11:1
This is clearly a reference to the new testament understanding of “temple” because people are being measured. This “measuring” correlates to the time when the two witnesses are sent, which is same time as the false prophet’s war against the saints, which is the same as the time of great distress. What’s being measured is the temple of God (the body of Christ), the altar (the sacrifices being made) and those who worship in it (the individual believer). The question is how is this measuring going to take place during that time?
John uses the word 'temple' several times in Revelation. All the other references up till ch 20 refer to God's temple in heaven. That is probably how it should also be understood in 11:1. It is likely to be the same temple later in v 19.
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Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it.” Revelation 11:1
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On 2/28/2018 at 4:26 AM, JoeCanada said:
TIMES OF THE GENTILES....... Luke 21: 20-28
The Sense
Jesus’s disciples asked him what would be the sign of his second coming and the end of the age. He responded with a sermon we call the Olivet Discourse. This passage is about what will happen to Jerusalem at the Midpoint (half way point) of Daniel’s 70th Week.
This brings up the first misunderstanding that many commentators have about the passage; that it refers to AD 70 and the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and not to the future 70th Week of Daniel. Because the events pictured in the passage are similar to events in AD 70, these commentators believe it refers to that time. In doing so, they miss an incredibly important verse, “so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.” All of prophecy wasn’t fulfilled in AD 70 so Jesus could not be exclusively talking about that period. The passage must refer to the 70th Week which is yet future. That is when all that is written is fulfilled.
Part of the reason many commentators don’t want to believe this refers to the future is what the passage says about Jerusalem, “they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all nations.” No one wants to imagine another holocaust, yet this is what the passage is picturing. But, regardless of whether we like it or not, we must remain true to God’s Word; it says a second holocaust is coming.
Knowing that the passage does not refer to AD 70 changes our opinion of what the phrase “Times of the Gentiles” means as well. If the entire passage was talking about AD 70, when Jesus said, “Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles until the Times of the Gentiles are fulfilled,” this would imply that these “times” would extend from the trampling in AD 70 until today. Now that we know that Luke 21: 20-24 is about the future, this theory (that the Times of the Gentiles is from AD 70 till Jesus returns) loses a lot of its validity.
Luke 21:7 clearly says Jesus' disciples asked him when these things will be and what are the signs they are about to take place. Contrary to your assertion, they did not ask him about his second coming and end of the age. "These things" refer back to verse 6 where Jesus predicts that not one stone of the temple will be left on another. It points to the forthcoming destruction of Jerusalem. That is the natural reading and it is probably why interpreters have traditionally and rightly read it that way.
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On 12/27/2017 at 6:32 AM, listener24 said:
I've heard some assertions from many siblings in Christ. One of this is like:
A - "God can only create new souls in this world, in its current state. He is waiting to reach the right number of souls before coming back."
Even if it is not always stated this way, many sentences of some siblings imply this belief.
But if we remember that the world is in the current state because of original sin, then A implies:
B - original sin was "necessary" to God for creating new souls and reaching the number of souls he wanted. (or necessary for other purposes)
An alternative to the above sentences A and B would be:
A2: - "God could create souls directly in Heaven or other dimensions, he has no need of the world in its current corrupted state for creating new souls and the only reasons we are here in the world in its corrupted state is original sin, chosen by men."
In this case, A2 is compatible with
B2 - original sin was NOT necessary, but a mistake.
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So to recap, A is compatible with B, but not with B2, because to state A and B2 makes no logical sense.
In the same way, A2 is compatible with B2 but not with B.
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What do you think? Are you more oriented on the "necessity" sentences (A,B), or the "mistake" sentences (A2,B2)?
Feel free to add alternatives and describe your position with more details!
The idea of a right number of souls might have come from Rom 11:25 and I think it does mean that God has a certain number of believers that he wants saved before he brings history to a close. He could have created those souls in other ways but he chose to do so through Adam and his descendents. I believe God hoped Adam would stay free of sin - hence the Fall was not a necessity - but Adam failed God. God was nevertheless prepared with a salvation plan in the event Adam failed and so the Fall came as a disappointment but not a surprise to God. This is where we are now.
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13 hours ago, Spock said:
I invite all comments, pro and con, and I especially invite you showing me through scripture where you believe I am in error, if you believe that. I do not claim to have all the answers, but like you, I’m seeking and searching for them like faithful Bereans.
I will try to consider and mesh both Daniels final 7 year period that has been prophesied pursuant to Daniel 9 and the book of Revelation End time events which only talks about a 3.5 year period, known as the GREAT TRIBULATION.
Let me preface my timeline with this: I believe it is possible the four horsemen of the apocalypse (first four Seals) have been opened and have ridden already. I believe it is possible that began as soon as Yeshua (Jesus) entered Heaven on His ascension from earth. (Rev 5) I see the rider of the first horse, the spirit of antichrist, going forth throughout the world which I see immediately beginning after Jesus left.
Timeline In chronological order:
1. I see the final seven year period that Daniel prophesied will begin with some sort of peace treaty or covenant being made with the many (Israel included). I believe, but not dogmatic, that the two witnesses of Rev 11 will make their appearance in Jerusalem at this time and will preach the Word for 3.5 years. The two witnesses will be Enoch, Elijah, or Moses, two of this three.
2. This will allow for Israel to rebuild their Temple (FYI, I do not believe it will be on the Temple Mount, but rather in the City of David, just South of the Temple Mount.)
3. There will be relative calmness in the Middle East and the world as a result of this treaty for about 3 years.
4. Very close to the 3.5 year mark, the RAPTURE....very unexpected and sudden. Be ready Saints! I believe this group of people is represented in Rev 7: 9-17 and I don’t think it is coincidental this scene takes place BEFORE the Trumpet Judgments of Rev 8.
5.At the midpoint of the 7 years, the Man of sin (the Beast, known as the antichrist) will make his move to be worshipped and set himself up in the rebuilt Temple to proclaim such. The ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION IS HERE. This now begins the time period known as the Great Tribulation= 1260 Days, 3.5 years, time, times, and a half.
6. The 6th seal begins right at this moment. God is not happy with this abomination and shows his anger both here on earth (large earthquake) and cosmic signs in the heavenlies.
7. The Faithful remnant Jews (1/3) flee to the Mountains, I think in Bosrah, Jordan.
8. The Trumpet Judgments begin shortly after the Abomination
9. The 144,000 Jews will also be evangelizing hard during this time.
10. The Bowl judgments follow the Trumpets, obviously in that final 3.5 year period (GT)
11. The nations will meet at Armageddon (I am not sure if this is also called the Gog/Magog War of Ezekiel 38/39, and not sure if Gog=Beast.) just before the return of Yeshua right at the end of the 70th week.
12. Christ comes back with his saints and kicks some booty. (FYI, The Saints immediately went up from the Rapture to the Bema Judgment for their rewards and the Marriage Supper.) The Beast and the False Prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire and Satan is bound for 1000 years in the Abyss.
13. Sheep and Goat Judgment- the sheep repopulate earth, goats are judged guilty and Removed
14. Christ sets up his Millenial Kingdom for 1000 yrs
15. Satan loosed, does his thing again rallying the unbelievers, Fire from Heaven devours them, Satan now thrown into Lake of Fire to be reunited with Beast and False Prophet
16. New Heaven and New Earth (might be a renewed Earth)
Obviously this is not all encompassing, but I think it says enough to generate thought and I’ve probably said enough for now. So, let me have it.
Thanks.
spock
I believe you are right that the multitude in Rev 7:9 represents the raptured saints. However, v 14 says they come out of the great tribulation which implies the great tribulation is already in progress when the multitude are extracted. Also, that John places the two witnesses in ch 11 in the midst of his description of the trumpet plagues indicates that those two minister during the period of the trumpet plagues and not earlier.
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4 hours ago, Waggles said:
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Revelation 8:
Chapter 8 begins a new section of prophecy in Revelation. Here we are introduced to Wormwood, and
descriptions of forthcoming woes upon woes.
Rev 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood;
and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
So my question is how long in our earth years is half an hour in Heaven?
And thus what does this hiatus correspond to in our history of events on Earth?
I think the silence denotes the time immediately after the Rapture. All those pesky christians are gone and the world thinks it can enjoy peace and safety for a change (1 Thess. 5:3). But then destruction will come suddenly in the form of the trumpet plagues.
Btw, the half hour is a good indication that God lives in time.
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On 12/20/2017 at 1:21 AM, Dennis1209 said:
I know, I know... But this isn't so much about once saved always saved (OSAS) as you may be thinking.
This passage is talking about Israel in general, and the Jewish peoples in particular, at the mid point of the tribulation during the 'abomination of desolation'.
Luke 17: 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
I've been reading several commentaries on this verse, and the expositor's and scholar's seem to agree. That during this time when the Jew's flee the Antichrist, if any shall try to preserve their mortal human life, by denying Christ or their religion to preserve their mortal life, is to lose their eternal Salvation in the day of trail. Does anyone disagree with my understanding of what this verse implies?
If my interpretation is biblical, that means there is at least one instance where Salvation is conditional. Does anyone have another interpretation that disagrees with how I'm understanding this verse?
That verse is used not only in an end-time context in 17:33 but also more generally e.g. in Lk 9:24. Salvation is conditional upon us remaining true to the faith, as Col. 1:23 makes clear.
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4 hours ago, Keras said:
They have failed to trust in the Lord alone.
Isaiah 28:14-15 and Daniel 11:27 perfectly describes the two groups of Christians.
Can those who fail to trust in the Lord alone be classified as Christians? If not, why would the AC persecute them? He knows they are lost anyway. Makes more sense for him to reward them so that Christians might be tempted to follow.
Anyway, how do you read the 1,290 days and 1,335 days; what events do they refer to?
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1 hour ago, Keras said:
Yes, Jerusalem and the holy people, that is: the Christians, are conquered by the Anti-Christ. Zechariah 14:1-2 describes it. Also Daniel 11:33. Those who refused to agree with the AC's peace treaty, Daniel 9:27, are the faithful ones who will be taken to a place of safety for the 1260 days of the Great Tribulation, Revelation 12:14 The rest must remain in the holy Land, where they will face persecution. Rev 12:17
According to the above, those who remain in the holy land must have agreed to the AC's peace treaty; why then are they persecuted?
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10 hours ago, Last Daze said:
Hello ghtan.
I think the man of sin seizes power by intrigue through the manifestation of supernatural signs and wonders. He does uproot three of the ten leaders using (supernatural) force, but I see that as defensive and part of the intrigue. Going back to Daniel 12, "shattering the power of the holy people" brings an end to the time of trouble. Its only a short time after that that Jesus returns. That's what I base it on.
Hi again,
I suppose it is theoretically possible for the beast to set up the AoD by intrigue but I don’t see any occasion in history where the Jews have been tricked into letting that happen. I think the desecration of the temple by a foreigner has always resulted from force instead.
As for Daniel 12, I doubt the short time between the death of the two witnesses and Armageddon is important enough to warrant God setting separate prophetic dates, especially as the two witnesses are nowhere hinted at in Daniel.
Anyway, just my opinion.
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On 12/13/2017 at 9:34 AM, Last Daze said:
Here is how I see the timeline concerning the end of Satan's six millennia stint as governor, along with the reasoning as to why.
The time segments given in scripture are 1260 days, 1290 days, and 1335 days. The 30 and 45 days are derived from the differences in those segments. Daniel 12 describes all three of the segments. That chapter begins by talking about a time of great distress, such that has never occurred before. And at that time, Daniel's people who are found written in the book will be rescued. The duration of the events of the great distress is given in verse 7.
- I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed. Daniel 12:7
A time, times, and half a time is a way of saying 3.5 years which is the same as 42 months of 30 days or 1260 days. Comparing Revelation 12:6 with 12:14 will bear that out. Daniel 12:7 states that the time of great distress lasts 1260 days and ends when the power of the holy people is shattered. This time of great distress is caused by the man of sin who is given authority over the saints during that time.
- He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. Daniel 7:25
- There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. Revelation 13:5
The time of great distress comes to an end with the shattering of the power of the holy people. I believe this is a reference to the death of the two witnesses since they are invincible as they confront the man of sin and bringing distress to him and his followers in the form of plagues. They are allowed to be killed only after they have finished their ministry which also runs for 1260 days.
- And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” Revelation 11:3
In summary, the 1260 days of great distress is comprised of the man of sin's persecution of believers and the plagues brought against him and his followers by the two witnesses. This is represented by the blue section marked with B. It's end point is when the two witnesses are killed.
Going back to Daniel 12, we see that there are two more time durations given. The first is in verse 11.
- From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. Daniel 12:11
Since the topic of Daniel 12 is the time of great distress, it is assumed that its end is also the implied end of this statement. In other words, from the time the sacrifice is abolished and the abomination is set up until the death of the two witnesses, there will be 1290 days. This is consistent with what Jesus taught in Matthew 24 where He associated a time of great tribulation with the abomination of desolation. This means that the abomination of desolation will be set up 30 days prior to the beginning of the time of great distress. This is the yellow section marked with A.
The last time duration in Daniel 12 is in verse 12.
- How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! Daniel 12:12
This is a continuation of the 1290 days that were mentioned in the previous verse. That means that there are 45 days that extend beyond the time of great distress. Those who keep waiting, and do so until the end, will be blessed. This same idea is conveyed by Jesus as the armies are being gathered together at Armageddon.
- “Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.” Revelation 16:15
This is speaking of the return of Jesus on the day of the Lord. Those who remain faithful until the 1335th day, when He returns, are blessed. I've divided the 45 day extension into three parts marked C, D, and E. C represents four days. After the two witnesses are killed, their bodies are put on display in Jerusalem. On the fourth day after their death, God brings them back to life and lifts them up into heaven. This is obviously cause for great concern so the call goes out for all the kings of the earth to gather their armies to Armageddon. This takes place in the 40 days after the two witnesses were caught up to heaven. After those 40 days have lapsed, the 45th and final day is when Jesus returns. It is what is referred to as the day of the Lord which brings about a change in governance of the earth. The wicked will be destroyed along with Satan's kingdom. Satan will be cast into the abyss and Jesus will rule the nations for 1000 years. The day of the Lord is marked with E.
Some people associate a 2300 or 1150 day period and a seven-year period with end time events as well. I’m not going to include them here since they are debatable concerning having a future fulfillment and omitting them doesn't detract from the overall chronology.
Hi LD.
If the beast is to set up the AoD in the Jerusalem temple, wouldn’t he have to conquer the city first? Presumably defending Jerusalem would be the Jews’ last stand. So shouldn’t its fall amount to and coincide with the ‘shattering of the power of the holy people’?
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If we apply 3:10 to the first century church and not to the end time church, there is no confusion.
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2 hours ago, listener24 said:
Do we think that prayers have only a "spiritual" effect on us and our convictions, OR are they sometimes also practically fulfilled by the Father?
Someone say that since the Father have decided everything from the beginning of the time, our prayers have no effect on the events that will happen.
I think common sense tells us prayers would make no practical difference were the future already fixed. Thankfully the bible does not say it is. Hence we can pray without such doubts at the back of our minds.
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7 hours ago, AscendedMasters333 said:
That goes against what Jesus says. That evil can't divide against itself. Meaning devils can't cast out other devils in the name of Jesus. Which is in the quote. "in thy name have cast out devils".
You are right; that is an important distinction. These people relied on Jesus to cast out demons and perform miracles. Mark 16:17 says those are marks of believers. I think they must have followed Jesus initially but later went astray and practised iniquity instead. So Jesus will deny knowing them as he said he would in Matt 10:33.
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On 10/6/2017 at 1:07 PM, ayin jade said:
Here is the verse. From proverbs 16:27
the living bible translation
Idle hands are the devil’s workshop; idle lips are his mouthpiece.
KJV
An ungodly man diggeth up evil: and in his lips there is as a burning fire.
NKJV
An ungodly man digs up evil,
And it is on his lips like a burning fire.NASB
A worthless man digs up evil,
While his words are like scorching fire.NIV
A scoundrel plots evil,
and on their lips it is like a scorching fire.the message
Mean people spread mean gossip;
their words smart and burn.Thanks for pointing out LB’s unique rendering of Pr 16:27. It led me to ask why it is so. My guess is that LB sees the same type of person in v 28-30 due “dishonest” in both v 28 and 30 (ESV). V 27 talks instead about a “worthless” person i.e. possibly a different type.
Question is, how is this person worthless? LB probably thinks v 27 serves instead as a contrast to v 26. Nothing impossible about that. Now since v 26 talks about the importance of work, it could mean the person in v 27 is worthless because he/she is idle. Hence LB’s paraphrase of v 27 actually has more thought put into it than do the literal translations.
LB was my first bible and I grew up loving it. Working through Pr 16:27 reminded me why - it is so refreshing to read. So while the LB does have some strange reading, I would recommend it to any new believer.
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I think we frequently violate the warning in Rev 22 when we ignore (deduct) the natural meaning of the text and import (add) an imagery from outside Rev to support another meaning that we prefer.
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1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:
It's like the difference between a man who is 30 years old and the same man 40 years later. The 70 year old will have things like wrinkles, gray hair, cracked teeth, scars from surgery, failing eyesight or hearing, etc. He has the signs of age.
God did not create Adam "old." He created him mature. All of the fruit/food bearing vegetation, were created "mature" with fruit/vegetables with their seeds in them. Animals were created "mature" and able to reproduce. The same applies to Adam. Adam was created as a fully functional adult.
The earth was created with all of its functionality already intact. It was not created with evidence of water or land erosion, or the scars of earth quakes and natural disasters. The earth was created, ready to support the life God placed upon it.
He can, but he didn't.
No one is dismissing science. We don't reconcile the Bible to science. We reconcile science to the Bible. To reconcile the Bible to science means that science is the standard the Bible must live up to. We have ascribed infallibility to science. The problem has been that if science and the Bible don't agree, we feel we need to fix the Bible so that the Bible lines up with science. The Bible is thus,true only insofar as it agrees with science.
And you know what? We have NO responsibility to explain the Bible to the lost. Nowhere does God task us with that. We are tasked with giving them the Gospel. We are not commanded by God to answer all of their questions, and make them understand the Bible. If they reject the message of the Gospel, that is between them and God. We are not responsible for getting people saved, we are responsible for preaching. What they do with the message is up to them. The only one who can save and convince anyone of the truth is the Holy Spirit and we need stop usurping the role of the Holy Spirit by thinking it is our job to convince people of the truth.
Well, we obviously have very different views of our responsibility as believers. But that is not the subject of this thread. Is there reason to believe God did not make an earth that displays decay and wear? Daniel 7 describes God with white hair and calls him the ancient of days. Doesn't sound like God mind looking old. So why wouldn't he create an earth that looked old?
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19 hours ago, shiloh357 said:
God did not make the earth look billions of years old. What He did, was make the earth and all it contains, functionally mature. To make the earth billions of years old, would mean that the earth would have the appearance of decay and wear. There would be things like water and wind erosion on rocks, for example.
We don't need to reconcile the Bible with science because science is not the infallible standard against which we judge the Bible. Rather it is science that is judged by Scripture.
I don’t understand. What is the difference between looking old and functionally mature? Why can’t God also make the earth have the appearance of decay and wear?
I think we do need to try to reconcile the bible to science, because we have the responsibility to explain the bible to the lost. They may not listen if we simply dismiss science.
The 1260 and 1290/1335 Days
in Eschatology
Posted
I believe you are right that the "him" in v 40 should refer to the king in v 36 and not to either KOTN or KOS. It is a third king. I suspect it refers to a Roman king, which I believe is the traditional view. Otherwise the prophecy would jump from Antiochus to the end time without referring to the Roman period. I don't think this is an option considering that the fall of Jerusalem was far more devastating to the Jews than what they faced under Antiochus.