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And Beloved Jude (I Believe) Received Enoch's Preaching And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. Jude 1:14-16 Jude quoted the book of Enoch as if it were scripture, and yet the book of Enoch is not recognized as scripture. So what does that say of Jude? Jude is simply a rewriting of 2Peter chapter 2, but using quotes from extra-scriptural sources as if they were scripture, which calls Jude into question. Furthermore Jude was not an apostle, and his being the brother of Jesus holds no weight. For even Jesus said, "who is my brother, mother, sister", and this when his family (like Jude and James, and even Mary) came to take him away saying he was out of his mind (Mark 3:21)

So to begin with, you are equivocating the context. Your argument is not about “scripture being fulfilled”, but about Abram’s justification being “fulfilled”. Therefore, the context of “scripture being fulfilled” has no power to influence the interpretation of the fulfilment of Abram’s justification. The Greek term ‘plarao’ (translated in James as “fulfilled”) can mean a variety of things and is used in a variety of ways – depending on the context. It is alternatively translated as fill, accomplish, satisfy, end, complete, perfect, to make full etc. (that is, exactly the same range of connotations ‘fulfilled’ has in English). So I don’t think it’s fair-minded to rest your argument upon such a narrow interpretation of “fulfilled”. It's the same thing. The scripture that was fulfilled states, "Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness." Being credited to him as righteousness is his justification, as Paul also clearly states in Romans 4. James associates its fulfillment with reference to Gen 22. Thus James views Gen 15:6 as a prophecy not fulfilled until Abraham did a work of faith, which is consistent with the context which states, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." As for "fulfilled" having a variety of meanings, the term where talking about is the Scripture being fulfilled. No, there is not a single counter example where it does not mean prediction of a future event.

and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. James 2:23 (NASB) And "Brother James" speaks the fulfillment of that verse with reference to Gen 22 where Abraham did a work of faith and goes on to say, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."

But not any place the term "scripture was fulfilled", referencing a particular scripture, as James does.

Every instance in the Bible which speaks of the "Scripture being fulfilled" speaks of the particular scripture as a prophecy. Thus James views Gen 15:6 as a prophecy which was not fulfilled until Gen 22, rather than a record of what actually happened in time right after the promise was given in Gen 15:5

The Moment Abram believed the LORD, and He credited it to him as righteousness. Genesis 15:6 (HCSB) Abraham (when in Abraham's life did James reckon Gen 15:6 was fulfilled?) and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. James 2:23 (NASB) By saying that it wasn't until Gen 22 that the Scripture was fulfilled that "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Therefore James is saying that Abraham didn't believe until Gen 22, which is central to he argument that works are necessary to justify a person. In contrast Paul indicates Abraham believed right after the promise of Gen 15:5 was given, which is central to his argument that justification is by faith alone apart from works

That's not consistent with how every other instance of the Bible's usage of scripture being fulfilled. Furthermore James claims that what was fulfilled was not the promise of Gen 15:5, but rather Gen 15:6 "Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness." James said that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Thus James indicates that Gen 15:6 was not fulfilled until Gen 22. For according to James Abraham had to do a work of faith before he could be justified. Prior to Gen 22 Abraham had faith but no works with regards to the promise of Gen 15:5. According to James faith without works is dead and as such Abraham's faith was dead prior to Gen 22. Furthermore James 2:4 "if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?" Apparently not according to James. And thus James indicates that Abraham was not saved until Gen 22. That's an example of interpreting James based upon what James ACTUALLY SAID. Words mean things! People can't see this when they try to read Paul into James rather than read James out of James.

Nope, not consistent with the rhetoric James uses. Gen 15:6, which James quotes in James 2:23 speaks not of a person's "testimony being justified" in the sight of man, but about the person himself being justified in the sight of God. And what does it matter whether or not a man in justified in the eyes of men? Are you so obsessed about man's opinion of your salvation status?

Your attempt to get around what it says has once again failed. Or are you saying that Abraham was justified in Gen 15 and then lost his justified status and gained it back again in Gen 22?

According to James the scripture that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." was not fulfilled until Gen 22 when Abraham offered Isaac in obedience to God's command.

Doesn't "saved" and "received imputed righteousness" mean the same thing? Does it say that Abraham was justified prior to Gen 15:6 and then lost his justification and gained it back in Gen 15;6, lost it again and gained it back again in Gen 22? I just don't see the Bible saying that. Paul's whole point in Romans 4 what that Abraham was justified "apart from works". That is, without regards to his compliance to commands. His justification was not contingent upon his obedience.

It's not uncommon to observe. These people accumulate resource but are too lazy to utilize them. Packrats are an example.

Good point. Since it says, "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4:15, and seeing as we're tempted by the world, the flesh and the devil, and as it says, "For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted." Heb 2:17,18, Jesus would not have been qualified to be a high priest had he not had a human, sinful nature as we have. He would not have been made like us in every way. And he would not have been human. In fact John writes, "Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist," 1John 4:2,3 The word "flesh" here is "sarx" in Greek, which is the same work the NIV often translates as "sinful nature". And so yes, I personally agree with you that denying that Jesus' body had a human nature is in violation of 1John 4:1-3

This may seem to be a simple question, but think about it first. James says this is his letter: Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? (Referring to an event in Genesis 22) Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (James quoting Genesis 15:6) And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:12-24 The first question is, when in Abraham's life did James reckon Gen 15:6 was fulfilled? The apostle Paul also quotes Gen 15:6 in Romans 4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. Rom 4:1-6 The second question is, when in Abraham's life did Paul reckon Gen 15:6 was fulfilled?

It was a very simple question & a simple answer would have been sufficient,of course it is your perrogative to choose not to answer,,,,thank you for the invitation to your website but I generally stay here at Worthy & don't do very much on the computer,,,,,,,,,,,,have a God filled day & I do hope you enjoy Worthy as much as I do,it is a Blessing from God to be all together in this special place With love in Christ,Kwik So given my statement above maybe you can describe to me the process of your reasoning for coming up with your question: "are we to understand that you regard the Bible as merely a history book & not the Living Word of God?" In the New Testament, doctrine was written by the apostles and that which was recorded of what Jesus said. The rest is an eyewitness record of historical events. Even Luke says of his gospel, "Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus," and he says likewise of Acts. Let met give you an example between that which is doctrinal and that which is historical. Luke (not an apostle) writes: Ac 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses." Paul the apostles writes of these same people: Gal 2:4 This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. Luke was recording what they were publicly called, while Paul wrote what they actually were.

Let me familiarize you with what the Bible ACTUALLY SAYS: Ac 4:12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." Ac 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.’ Ro 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Ok, so you're saying that these and like verses are referring to " the RESCUE of God’s people (Israel) when Yeshua` (Jesus) returns."? Of course! Haven’t you ever read the CONTEXT of these passages or the passages that were quoted? (WARNING! Long post coming!) This whole song is talking about the RESCUE when the Messiah comes! What you need to do IN EVERY CASE to prove your point is that none of these verses are referring to justification. You big quote was simply to say in the case of Acts 4:12 that "saved" is not referring to one's justification, that is to be saved from hell, which is what justification does. You have to really read into Acts 4:12 to get around that. No so easy with the other verses. And while my point may be lost on you I'm sure it is not lost on others.

James seems to get it backwards where he associates faith with the body and works with the spirit. Faith is an attitude internal to the person. It should be analogous to the spirit of a man, while works are outward and should be associated with the body. Because James is trying to make an analogy about that which he is incorrect, the associates of his analogy make no sense. He's trying to say that faith without works is dead, and so he does the same mishandling scripture with regards to Gen 15:6, claiming it's merely a predication, a prophecy, not fulfilled until Gen 22 when Abraham offered Isaac. Yet in Romans 4 Paul says the Gen 15:6 was fulfilled immediately in Gen 15:6, proving that justification is by faith apart from works, contrary to James. Now if we use the correct analogy faith = spirit works = body We would say that works without faith is dead. That is ":whatever is not from faith is sin." Rom 14:23b Paul's view is diametrically opposed to the view of James. Can this really be within a truly born again believer? I surely think so. I think we can get so tossed about, so beaten, so abused and confused, that our faith can be present within us, surely...but nowhere near the surface of our lives... yet... there is always "evidence"... but it can maybe only be known by the person that has it. Only they can tell you of what they have WANTED to do to lash out, get vengeance, revenge... how they've TRIED to HATE other people... yet their faith would not let them go down that path in their hearts....all because of the "faith" within them. So is it really dead, as in non-existent? Not hardly. But when under extreme duress, it can be very hard, or impossible for others to see. Now in the life of a "normal" Christian, not under too much strain, keeping their focus constantly on Christ, continually enjoying more blessing in life than trials or persecutions, it is alot easier for that faith to surface and even be spread about among others, making it very easy to see and maybe even impossible to ignore. Even under the most extreme duress, it is possible for faith to abound, for people to remain humble, to love others and express all the fruits of the Spirit. I'm not saying hardship is an "excuse" to bury one's faith. I'm just saying that sometimes...people get confused.

Ever notice the books in the Catholic Bible are different than in the Protestant Bible. Ever consider why?

Don't know how you came to that conclusion based upon what I wrote. But feel free to visit my Bible study site at http://www.bcbsr.com to clear up your misconceptions.

Let me familiarize you with what the Bible ACTUALLY SAYS: Ac 4:12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." Ac 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.’ Ro 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Ok, so you're saying that these and like verses are referring to " the RESCUE of God’s people (Israel) when Yeshua` (Jesus) returns."?

Luke and Mark weren't composing doctrine. They were recording history. Doesn't take an apostle to do that. Jude, the brother of James has no business in the Bible. And twice he quotes as authoritative books which are not reckoned scripture, namely the book of Enoch and the Assumption of Moses. Furthermore he's simply copying 2Peter 2 point for point.

First all concerning the bad attitude you have towards Bereans, it is written, "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." Acts 17:11 As for chosing between Paul and James, Paul was an apostle personally chosen by Jesus Christ. James was not an apostle. He doesn't have the authority of override Paul's teachings. And Paul proved himself with miraculous signs of an apostle. James didn't. Even James endorsed Paul as the apostle to the Gentiles, which is, by the way almost the entire world. So, yes, there is plenty of basis of chosing Paul over James. And nepotism doesn't trump apostleship.

What you claim James was saying was not what James ACTUALLY SAID. For example, Once again: When was Gen 15:6 fulfilled? Both Paul and James quote it. Gen 15:6 talks about justification. So both Paul and James are referring to the same "justification", contrary to your idea that they are referring to different kinds of justification. And while you say, "James is not talking about faith for salvation", what James ACTUALLY SAYS is "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith SAVE him?" James 2:14. So, yes, James is talking about salvation.

So you're saying that as you take whatever James says as the Word of God, and as you reject was James ACTUALLY SAYS, you're saying that you're not a true Christians, not a genuine follower of Jesus. Have you really thought the through? The fact that you're avoiding dealing with what James ACTUALLY SAYS, as I have pointed out, speaks for itself.

First of all James doesn't say "in the sight of others". Rather he speaks of Gen 15:6 being fulfilled when he offered Isaac. Gen 15:6 isn't speaking of being justified "in the sight of others". Paul uses it in Romans 4 to indicate it is speaking of being justified in the sight of God. Furthermore in saying "If there are no good works, then that faith was not genuine to begin with:", aren't you saying that Abraham's faith was not genuine until Gen 22? Indeed James is saying that Abraham's faith was dead until Gen 22. So was Abraham's faith dead until Gen 22? Was Abraham saved by dead faith prior to that? Here's what the verses actually say, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God." So are you denying that James is saying that Gen 15:6 wasn't fulfilled until Gen 22? Because that's what he's ACTUALLY SAYING. Much as you can ignore what he says, I don't take your analysis as an honest evaluation of the text seeing as you haven't dealt with what the text ACTUALLY SAYS. So are you saying that the "accounted to him for righteousness" phrase in Gen 15:6 means "justified in the eyes of men"? Because that's not how Paul interprets that phrase. Do you not agree with Paul's interpretation of Gen 15;6. Or are you simply going to ignore the original question regarding Gen 15:6? Now as for "saved" James also speaks of "saved". Apparently you overlooked the fact that James also said, "if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" So the larger context indicates he's talking about SALVATION. You say, " in Paul's epistles Abraham was justified (saved) in the sight of God the moment he believed God." But James indicates that Abraham was not saved the moment he believed God. James indicates Abraham wasn't saved until Gen 22, many years later, prior to which his faith was dead. For though he had faith he had no works. And James says, "Faith without works is dead". Thus, according to James Abraham's faith was dead from Gen 15:6 till Gen 22. Do you agree with James, or do you agree with Paul?