Mr Nice

Glad you spoke up. I don't use IE for many reasons, only Firefox. Sorry for the oversight. I use Google Chrome and it seems to be working well also.

Heb 12:14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. What is sanctification? Who sanctifies us? When does sanctification occur? Why do we need to be sanctified? How are we sanctified?

For those who claim to believe in the Oneness, please clarify what you mean. If it is oneness of mind I can agree, but if they are all one and the same then your belief is not supported by scripture. This is why it says in the beginning, let us make them in our image. We were created as a completely faithful seed to obey God the Father just as Christ did. We have a spirit just as Christ has a spirit for He said: Luk 23:46 And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last. Joh 19:30 Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit. What is missing then of their image in us? No one can answer that question for Jesus and John says we don't know what that form is but those who have the hope of being transformed into that form purifies themselves as He is pure. 1Jn 3:1-3 See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. (2) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. (3) And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. Joh 5:37 "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. We must also notice that we are not called sons of Christ but sons of God just as Jesus is the Son of God. We are called His brothers and sisters, heirs with Him. Rom 8:14-18 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. (15) For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" (16) The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, (17) and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. (18) For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. As far as Christ being God, Augustine has pointed out multiple scriptures indicating there is an inequality in the three. They are not all equal but they are all of one mind as we are called to be of one mind. If Jesus is God, please explain John 17 where Christ does nothing but give all the glory to the Father claiming He has only come to do the Father's will. If Jesus is God then He would be saying He is doing His own will. He also says the following about the only true God: Joh 17:1-3 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, (2) even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. (3) "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. Christ completely separates Himself from being referred to as God. He says that they may know the ONLY TRUE GOD, AND Jesus Christ whom He sent. Jesus is saying I am not God. He also says that He came forth from the Father and that God gave Him the authority to grant eternal life. All of Christ's authority came from God. If Jesus was God, then He would already have all authority it would not have to be given to Him. Joh 17:7-8 "Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; (8) for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. Joh 16:26-28 "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf; (27) for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father. (28) "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father." If Jesus is God why in the end will He be subjected to the Father? 1Co 15:22-28 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. (23) But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, (24) then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. (25) For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (26) The last enemy that will be abolished is death. (27) For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. (28) When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. This also further justifies my belief about Christ leaving His glory when He came down in the flesh. Christ was able to be our sacrifice, not because He was deity or God as you claim, He was able to be our sacrifice because unlike us He did exactly as the Father commanded Him, learning obedience through the things He suffered. His life in the flesh is what made Him worthy to become our faithful high priest. Additionally, Christ did not think equality with God was something to be grasped. Christ would not think this if He was God. He also says He existed in the form of God which further makes a distinction between Himself and God. Php 2:5-11 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, (6) who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, (7) but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. (8) Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (9) For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, (10) so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, (11) and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. We confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father, not of the Son. Glory and honor goes to Christ because He obeyed, for it is at the name that God gave Him that every knee will bow. Joh 17:11-12 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. (12) "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. Christ receives glory because the Father glorified Him. He did not glorify Himself. Joh 17:5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. Joh 17:22-24 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; (23) I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. (24) "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. If Christ was God then He would know the hour at which He will return. Mat 24:35-36 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. (36) "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. We are told that Christ is the exact representation of the nature of God, not God Himself. Christ inherited a more excellent name. Why would He need to inherit a name if he was God. Heb 1:1-4 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, (2) in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. (3) And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, (4) having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. Last but not least, the Bible does not say that we must believe Jesus is God but that He is the Son of God. Big difference. Jesus is the Son of God and He came to this earth to save those whom God has chosen. It is only those who are led by the Holy Spirit who will be called sons of God. All three are of absolute necessity, but there is only one true God, and that is the Father. As you can see neither Augustine nor myself are denying that Christ is our savior, that He did come in the flesh, that He lived a life without sin through the Spirit to become our high priest and Way to the Father. These scriptures cannot be denied.

Not sure what you are trying to state. Please provide more information so we may understand. 2 Peter 3:10-11 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, KJV You are claiming a works based salvation in your posts... now your works that you are claiming to save you are going to be burnt up and we see those who were relying on those works here Matt 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. KJV It is clear that God is teaching us His disdain for sin and even the garment next to the sin Jude 23-24 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, KJV Now in summing up this linear thought what manner of man are we to be understanding the value God holds for this first creation... none except for fulfilling His Word in eschatology... Yet you instruct that we may take from this first creation and maintain a salvation with it! When in the council of the half brother of Jesus says it is God who will keep you from falling... A works based premise for salvation is blasphemous to say the least! Love, Steven If the works we do through the Holy Spirit will be burned up, why is Peter asking what manner of persons aught they to be in all holy conduct and godliness? The works he is speaking of are the works of the wicked just like the works of the wicked were destroyed by the flood which is addressed just a few verses prior. After he asks them this question he tells them to be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless. That is to say be diligent in your faith keeping His commandments because that is the only way they will be found spotless and blameless. This sure makes how the live and what they are doing rather important. 2Pe 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, Yes God does have a total disdain for sin which is why Christ died for the forgiveness of our past and sent the Holy Spirit to keep us from the sin He disdains. This is why He says those He does not know are those who are workers of iniquity, those who are sinning, not keeping His commandments. This is in direct correlation to verse 21 where He says only those who do the will of the Father will enter heaven. His will is to believe in Christ and keep His commandments. This is also why He says the one who hears His words and ACTS on them may be compared to a wise man, for a wise man listens to and follows the wisdom of God. Mat 7:24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. Whereas the foolish man does not ACT on His words. Mat 7:26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. I teach we are to act on His words, doing His will and you say I am teaching blasphemy. Really! Why are you people so confused? I have said nothing but that it is God who will keep us from falling and this He does through His Spirit which we have received by faith. The works I speak of are the works God prepared for us to do yet you continue to claim I am talking about doing my own works. The problem is you don't believe that through His Spirit we can walk as Christ walked, following the example Christ left for us to follow. You believe that it is impossible for God to do this when you declare we will all continue to sin. Answer these questions and we will know who is being blasphemous. If you don't believe these things then you don't believe what the scripture says. Do you believe God is able to keep you from stumbling? Do you believe God will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we are able and that He will always provide a way out? Do you believe that if you are led by the Spirit that you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh? Do you believe all things are possible with God? Do you believe that those who have suffered in the flesh as Christ has suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin and live the rest of their days for the will of God? If you believe He is able to keep you from stumbling why do you teach we will all continue to sin? Your teaching contradicts what you believe if you believe He can keep you from stumbling. there is no dialogue here as you have ignored my post and reinstated you salvation by works doctrine... The complete refute by God Word- Titus 3:5 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; KJV I have approached you on other occasions about the error of your doctrine now your blood is no longer on my hands... you consist of your own error willfully! Love, Steven How is teaching we are saved by grace through faith in that God will do as he has purposed for us? God's purpose for us is that we would be sanctified by His Spirit without which no one will see the Lord. How is doing the works God prepared for us to do through His Spirit salvation by my works? You continue to make claims, yet refuse to answer my questions. Why will you not answer the questions I asked? Are you afraid to answer them? If you aren't afraid, please answer them.

Not sure what you are trying to state. Please provide more information so we may understand. 2 Peter 3:10-11 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, KJV You are claiming a works based salvation in your posts... now your works that you are claiming to save you are going to be burnt up and we see those who were relying on those works here Matt 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. KJV It is clear that God is teaching us His disdain for sin and even the garment next to the sin Jude 23-24 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, KJV Now in summing up this linear thought what manner of man are we to be understanding the value God holds for this first creation... none except for fulfilling His Word in eschatology... Yet you instruct that we may take from this first creation and maintain a salvation with it! When in the council of the half brother of Jesus says it is God who will keep you from falling... A works based premise for salvation is blasphemous to say the least! Love, Steven If the works we do through the Holy Spirit will be burned up, why is Peter asking what manner of persons aught they to be in all holy conduct and godliness? The works he is speaking of are the works of the wicked just like the works of the wicked were destroyed by the flood which is addressed just a few verses prior. After he asks them this question he tells them to be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless. That is to say be diligent in your faith keeping His commandments because that is the only way they will be found spotless and blameless. This sure makes how the live and what they are doing rather important. 2Pe 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, Yes God does have a total disdain for sin which is why Christ died for the forgiveness of our past and sent the Holy Spirit to keep us from the sin He disdains. This is why He says those He does not know are those who are workers of iniquity, those who are sinning, not keeping His commandments. This is in direct correlation to verse 21 where He says only those who do the will of the Father will enter heaven. His will is to believe in Christ and keep His commandments. This is also why He says the one who hears His words and ACTS on them may be compared to a wise man, for a wise man listens to and follows the wisdom of God. Mat 7:24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. Whereas the foolish man does not ACT on His words. Mat 7:26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. I teach we are to act on His words, doing His will and you say I am teaching blasphemy. Really! Why are you people so confused? I have said nothing but that it is God who will keep us from falling and this He does through His Spirit which we have received by faith. The works I speak of are the works God prepared for us to do yet you continue to claim I am talking about doing my own works. The problem is you don't believe that through His Spirit we can walk as Christ walked, following the example Christ left for us to follow. You believe that it is impossible for God to do this when you declare we will all continue to sin. Answer these questions and we will know who is being blasphemous. If you don't believe these things then you don't believe what the scripture says. Do you believe God is able to keep you from stumbling? Do you believe God will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we are able and that He will always provide a way out? Do you believe that if you are led by the Spirit that you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh? Do you believe all things are possible with God? Do you believe that those who have suffered in the flesh as Christ has suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin and live the rest of their days for the will of God? If you believe He is able to keep you from stumbling why do you teach we will all continue to sin? Your teaching contradicts what you believe if you believe He can keep you from stumbling.

I fully agree with you in your interpretation of the passage. I agree we may make occasional errors but it will only be those which we do not know to be sin. It would be nice if Paul would come and clarify what he says, because as Peter says some of the things he wrote are hard to understand. He also speaks of the untaught and unstable who will distort the scriptures to their own destruction. Most will neglect verse 14 where we are told to be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless. If we are willfully sinning then we are neither of these. 2Pe 3:14-16 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, (15) and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, (16) as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

I agree with you august, it is a process that we all go through, maturing as we go. And yes, we should be changing and working toward being Christ-like, and not living in sin. By that I mean, not continuing to do something we know that is a sin, as the Holy Spirit convicts us. If we disregard the Holy Spirit's leading, then we would eventually become to deaf to the truth, and given over to wickedness. I also agree. God will bring it to pass if we believe He will.

Not sure what you are trying to state. Please provide more information so we may understand.

What is Satan? An angel. What is the abyss and where is it located? Who is the destroyer? Romans 3:21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Righteousness is what? Given, not earned. All are justified freely by what? His grace, not by their works. You post this passage, but fail to grasp what it says. I Peter 5:(9) But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world. (10) After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you. Who perfects? He does, not you. Who confirms, strengthens and establishes you? He does, not you. What would a perfect person need confirmation, strengthening, or establishing for? Again, Satan does not come to torment those who are already his. If he did then they would turn away from him realizing the cost of having him as their father. What were the angels who were blowing the trumpets doing? They were bringing about the wrath of God on the wicked and that is what is happening by the angel opening the abyss. I fully grasp the passage in 1 Peter. You fail to apply obedient faith to the mix. Notice how he starts off in verse 9. He says resist him (Satan), FIRM in your faith. How do you stand firm if you do nothing you’re your faith? Paul was called to bring about the obedience of faith to the Gentiles, not just faith. Rom 1:5-7 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake, (6) among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ; (7) to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 16:25-27 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, (26) but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; (27) to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen. Yes we are justified freely by His grace. He freely gave His Son for the forgiveness of our past sins and His Spirit so that we can walk as Christ walked. Those who claim they abide in Him are to walk as He walked. 1Jn 2:4-6 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; (5) but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: (6) the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. We do this through faith in His Spirit and the promises of God. So yes, we are saved by grace, through faith, not by our works but by that which God does in us through His Spirit. However, we are required to have obedient faith. If we do not have obedient faith then our faith is worthless. He will only perfect us if we let Him. Righteousness is what those who have believed and obeyed receive from God. I am sure you are going to point to the passages about Abraham where it says his faith was credited to him as righteousness so I will point you to where we are told that scripture was actually fulfilled. It was not fulfilled, credited, until he offered his son as a sacrifice. That is to say it was not credited until he obeyed God. Jas 2:20-24 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? (21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? (22) You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; (23) and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. (24) You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. His obedience was to what God commanded. Notice the verse also says he was called a friend of God. Interestingly, Jesus made a similar comment about who His friends are. Joh 15:12-14 "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. (13) "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. (14) "You are My friends if you do what I command you. What allows God to perfect us? That would be our faith that He will bring to pass that which He has purposed which is sanctification by the Spirit who guides us so that we will be slaves of obedience which results in righteousness with the outcome eternal life. The works we are doing are His works not our own. He through our faith gives us the strength to complete them. How about start believing in His promises that He will strengthen you so that you will no longer stumble instead of declaring He is not able to by saying we all continue to sin? Who is more powerful, God or Satan? That is an easy question. It is God. You only stumble because you do not believe. If you doubt this then you don’t know the definition of disobedience according to scripture. According to scripture, disobedience and unbelief are one in the same. Heb 3:18-19 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? (19) So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief. Paul pointed out the same multiple times, specifically about himself in 1 Timothy. 1Ti 1:12-14 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, (13) even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; (14) and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. I believe God is able to keep me from stumbling (sinning), do you believe He is able to keep you from stumbling? Jud 1:24-25 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, (25) to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. I also believe He will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we are able and that He will always provide a way out so that we can endure (not fail). Do you believe this is true? If you don’t there lies your problem, you do not have complete faith in God. 1Co 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

Three things. First read verse 3 to understand to whom he is writing. His main focus is toward those who do not have fellowship with him, those with him, God, or the Son. He is writing to people who have not accepted the fact that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". They have refused to acknowledge this fact and so John is calling them liars and saying the truth is not in them. Second, it is a reminder to Christians that if they turn to darkness they will no longer have fellowship with the Father. What everyone fails to remember is that in order for a person to accept Christ they must confess and repent of their sins. Therefore, a Christian is one who has not said he has no sin or has not sinned. Third, if you don't believe the first two we will go to 1 John 2:3-6 where John declares that those who claim to know God but do not keep His commandments are liars and the truth is not in them. This completely contradicts the belief that Christians continue to sin as so many claim when they point to chapter 1. One cannot commit sin and know God at the same time. 1Jn 2:3-6 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. (4) The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; (5) but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: (6) the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. There are many more scriptures I can continue to point out but this should be sufficient.

Google lol. No thanks, but maybe you should google the definition of grace. Yes, wingnut, please look up the defintion of grace by googling God's word. Search for "true grace" in scripture.

I think the misinterpretation is yours, try reading Joel lol. And who is the destroyer? Perhaps you should reconsider condemnation for others, including the pharisees, since judging is not your place. In fact, we are told to pray for those who persecute us, do you do this for your ex wife? If not, that would make you imperfect. I don't need to read Joel to understand that the angel of the abyss was an angel of God. Revelation plainly states it. Actually Christ is the one who charged the Pharisees of having Satan for their father. I simply repeated what Christ said so I am not the one judging them. Actually I have prayed for my ex-wife, both for her sake and the sake of my two daughters. One of them turn completely away from her mother because she knew what she does is wrong and against God. The other unfortunately has feared the wrath of her mother and listened to her guidance causing mischief in my home. Actually you do need to read Joel to understand prophecy, but that is for another thread. In regards to this, it really comes down to understanding basic scripture. Romans 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” Romans 3:21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. You have to digest the milk before you try chewing the meat. Why don’t you enlighten me on what in Joel you are trying to point to instead of me trying to figure out what you are trying to say? Revelation is clear. Satan would not send forth locusts to torture and torment those who are already his, he would send them after those who are God’s. And those who are Christ's have overcome the evil one, Satan. If one is still sinning they have not overcome the evil one. 1Jn 2:13-14 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. (14) I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one. Again you mis-interpret scripture when you point to the passages in Romans. How about looking up the passages in the Old Testament to which Paul is quoting? He is speaking of the fools. David is saying the fools, those who claim there is no God are corrupt and none of them do good. He says God looks down and asks, do these workers of wickedness not recognize they are eating up His people. Psa 14:1-7 For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. (2) The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God. (3) They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one. (4) Do all the workers of wickedness not know, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call upon the Lord? (5) There they are in great dread, For God is with the righteous generation. (6) You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted, But the LORD is his refuge. (7) Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the LORD restores His captive people, Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad. Psa 53:1-6 For the choir director; according to Mahalath. A Maskil of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God," They are corrupt, and have committed abominable injustice; There is no one who does good. (2) God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there is anyone who understands, Who seeks after God. (3) Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one. (4) Have the workers of wickedness no knowledge, Who eat up My people as though they ate bread And have not called upon God? (5) There they were in great fear where no fear had been; For God scattered the bones of him who encamped against you; You put them to shame, because God had rejected them. (6) Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When God restores His captive people, Let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad. First when it says "There is no one righteous, not even one" it is not referring to those who are His, who are seeking the righteousness which comes through Him. For Christians this comes through His Holy Spirit, for the Spirit guides us so that we become slaves of obedience which results in righteousness and sanctification with the outcome of eternal life, Romans 6. This is speaking to the world in general because the world in general has turned from the Father and were not seeking Him. Second, you misuse Romans 3:21-23 like so many others do. When it says "all have sinned and fallen short" it is speaking of past and not future with respect to those who turn to seek God, especially Christians who are led by the Spirit. This passage does not say all continue to sin and fall short. Third, you seem to believe in a grace different then expressed by scripture. Grace is not a covering given by God so we will be covered for continued sin. Grace didn't start and stop at the cross as so many teach. Grace started with the example Christ left for us to follow and continues throughout the life of those who are sanctified by the Spirit, the Helper. Christ died while we were yet sinners, while we were still helpless and not because we are still sinners and still helpless. Rom 5:6-10 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. (7) For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. (8) But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (9) Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. (10) For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Christians are no longer sinners and no longer helpless because Christ sent the Helper, the Holy Spirit, unto us so that we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh, but produce the fruit of the Spirit against which there is no law. Thus, Satan may accuse, but they will not be found guilty by any law. Christians are righteous because they are obedient and keep His commandments, which is why the scripture says the following. 1Ti 1:5-14 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. (6) For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, (7) wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions. (8) But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, (9) realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers (10) and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, (11) according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted. (12) I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, (13) even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; (14) and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 1Pe 4:12-19 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; (13) but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation. (14) If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. (15) Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler; (16) but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name. (17) For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? (18) AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER? (19) Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right. Sinners are called out as being separate from the righteous. This is also the meaning of the parable of the sower. Four groups are described with only one group being those of God. The righteous are those who have shared in the sufferings of Christ, which is to say those who have learned obedience through the things they have suffered just as Christ learned obedience through the things He suffered. Likewise, at the beginning of 1 Peter 4, Peter says those who have suffered in the flesh as Christ has suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin. 1Pe 4:1-2 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, (2) so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. Finally, what is the true grace of God. It is that we will be perfected through sufferings just as Christ was perfected through sufferings being led by the Spirit. 1Pe 5:6-12 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time, (7) casting all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you. (8) Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. (9) But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world. (10) After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you. (11) To Him be dominion forever and ever. Amen. (12) Through Silvanus, our faithful brother (for so I regard him), I have written to you briefly, exhorting and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand firm in it! Heb 9:13-14 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, (14) how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? The righteous are innocent having had their past sins washed away and are now serving Him in the newness of the spirit being led by His Spirit to produce the fruit of the Spirit and not the deeds of the flesh. Therefore Satan is accusing the innocent brethren who are like their Teacher. Mat 10:24-25 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. (25) "It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household! Luk 6:39-40 And He also spoke a parable to them: "A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit? (40) "A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher. 1Jn 4:17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. I have digested the milk and am sustained on the meat.

I think the misinterpretation is yours, try reading Joel lol. And who is the destroyer? Perhaps you should reconsider condemnation for others, including the pharisees, since judging is not your place. In fact, we are told to pray for those who persecute us, do you do this for your ex wife? If not, that would make you imperfect. I don't need to read Joel to understand that the angel of the abyss was an angel of God. Revelation plainly states it. Actually Christ is the one who charged the Pharisees of having Satan for their father. I simply repeated what Christ said so I am not the one judging them. Actually I have prayed for my ex-wife, both for her sake and the sake of my two daughters. One of them turn completely away from her mother because she knew what she does is wrong and against God. The other unfortunately has feared the wrath of her mother and listened to her guidance causing mischief in my home.

For those who believe we will continue to sin even as Christians being led by the Spirit, what sins are you declaring we will commit? Are they willful sins, sins which you know to be sin? Or are they unknown sins, those things you find out are sins as you grow in Christ or are pointed out by a brother or sister in Christ?

To whom are you directing these verses? Those who believe through Christ can do all things or those who believe we are unable to cease from sin?

Revelation 9 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. Revelation 9:11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer). 12 The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come. Revelation 12:Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.” Yes the pharisees made accusations, but they are not Satan. And the point I am making is obvious. Satan accuses the brethren night and day before the throne, and has from the beginning and will continue to do so until the time he is cast out of heaven. There is not one instance in scripture where Satan accuses Jesus of anything, because there is no accusation to be made against Him, He is perfect. The brethren are not perfect, this is why accusations are leveled against us day and night. Wow. Talk about a mis-interpretation. What was the angel king over? He was king over the locusts who struck everyone but those who had the seal of God on their foreheads. This was not Satan it was an angel of God who let loose a plague of locusts on the world. Rev 9:3-5 Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. (4) They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. (5) And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man. Revelation 12 does not tie into this passage. However it supports my point even more. Those who did not love their life, meaning they loved Christ more than themselves, not turning away from Christ are told to rejoice because Satan was cast down. Then had overcome Satan. Rev 12:11-12 "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. (12) "For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time." Again, being accused of something does not mean one is guilty. The Pharisees didn't accuse Jesus on their own, they did that which their father, Satan directed them to do. They were serving Satan. You have no argument.

Those people spoken of are brethren according to John. There is nothing a "perfect" person can be accused of. What did Satan accuse Jesus of if that is the case? Show me that in scripture please. Your error is in thinking being accused of something means you are guilty. A perfect person, one who is keeping the commandments of God through the Spirit cannot not be found guilty, however, many will try to accuse them of wrong doing just like the Pharisees accused Christ of wrong doing. Satan was the father of the Pharisees according to Jesus so it was satan who was accusing Him.

Christ was not blameless because of the spirit, he was blameless because he is the only begotten Son of God. Heb 9:13-14 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, (14) how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? I don't think it can be said any clearer. It was through the Spirit that He offered Himself without blemish, it was not because He was the Son of God. Likewise, we are to prove ourselves to be blameless and innocent children of God. Php 2:12-16 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; (13) for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. (14) Do all things without grumbling or disputing; (15) so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, (16) holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.

Simply believing alone, no it wouldn't work in my opinion. When I state believe I mean lives according to what God has promised, having faith in God to bring to pass that which He has purposed which is sanctification through the Spirit. Does this change your opinion? If not, why not?

Do you think our idea of perfection is one that cannot be attained to? So perfection is determined by what man says? I had been thinking what God considers perfection. Wikipedia, "Wesley was clear that Christian perfection did not imply perfection of bodily health or an infallibility of judgment. It also does not mean one no longer violates the will of God, for involuntary transgressions remain. Perfected Christians remain subject to temptation, and have a continuing need to pray for forgivenessand holiness. It is not an absolute perfection but a perfection in love. Furthermore, Wesley did not teach a salvation by perfection, but rather wrote, “Even perfect holiness is acceptable to God only through Jesus Christ.”[5] Wesley did not use perfection to describe sinlessness. Similarly, perfection is not the state of being unable to sin, but rather the state of choosing not to sin. Wesley's perfection represents a change of life, a freedom from willful rebellion against God, impure intentions, and pride. Wesley also did not view perfection as permanent. As regarding the concept of sinless perfection, John Wesley himself did not use this term and noted in his book A Plain Account of Christian Perfection that "...sinless perfection is a phrase I never use," Does any of this strike you as self centered? Interesting. You start off with the question “So perfection is determined by what man says” and then you go to a man (Wesley) instead of the Bible to justify your position. You (Wesley) made a couple of points I do agree with if I understand you correctly. I do believe a Christian is able to sin. However, there are two types of sin one may commit. There are sins of ignorance, meaning sins which we do not know to be sin, and then there are willful sins, those which we know to be sin. A Christian cannot commit both. If a Christian commits a sin he does not know to be sin he is not guilty until he learns it is sin. This doesn’t mean we can refrain from learning what pleases the Lord, for that is sin. Once he learns he has sinned he must repent of it. If he continues in it then he is separated from God. If a person does that which he knows to be sin after he has come to the knowledge of the truth he will be judged according to his sin for the deeds of the flesh will be judged by the Law. The question then must be, if a person claims to be saved yet continues to commit willful sin was he ever really saved. When John says one who is born of God does not sin, he is declaring that it is impossible to claim to be born of God and be willfully sinning at the same time. Just like he says if one claims to know God but does not keep His commandments that man is a liar and the truth is not in him. We cannot know God and commit sin at the same time. Similarly he says one who does not keep His commandments does not abide in Him. He also says one who says he abides in Him is to walk as Christ walked. Clearly, John is saying only those who keep God’s commandments are the ones who know, abide, and are born of God. This is also evident when Christ says those who keep His commandments are those who love Him. No one can do this unless he is led by the Spirit, the same Spirit who led Christ, which Christ sent to us to be our helper. I do agree as Wesley says perfection is represented by “a change of life, a freedom from willful rebellion against God, impure intentions, and pride” specifically a change of life. The change in life is sanctification through the Holy Spirit through whom we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh, thus being perfected by the Spirit the same way Christ was perfected by the Spirit. Does love do harm to a neighbor or sin against God? Matthew 5:48 was about being perfect in love as God is perfect in love. However, the only people who have His love perfected in them are those who keep His commandments, 1 John 2:3-6. Unfortunately, Wesley was not complete in his understanding of what being perfected in love means. John also defined what the love of God is. 1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. None of what I say sounds self-centered because it is centered on Christ’s work in us through His Holy Spirit. Therefore it is Christ centered.

Well, your mind reading skills are about as accurate as everything else you say. Satan is cast out of heaven at the 5th trumpet in Revelation, so you have no clue as to my understanding. This is simply an attempt to avoid answering the question by deflecting away to something irrelevant. Satan up until that point has been accusing the brethren night and day before the throne. There is no possibility of accusation for one who is perfect, as is clearly seen by your inability to display where Satan accused Jesus of anything. There is scripture with the two of them conversing, but nothing said to support your false theory, and that is because no accusation can be brought against perfection. Curious. Where do you find that Satan was cast out of heaven at the 5th trumpet? Granted, it really doesn't change my mind about those who love Christ and Christ being accused of everything under the sun because those who are evil, whose father is Satan, will do anything to accuse us. Did the Pharisees accuse Christ of wrong doing? This is a simple yes or no. From what you have written so far, I assume you believe if a person is accused of something then they had to have done something wrong. If this assumption is incorrect then why do continue to claim those who are perfect cannot be accused? Just be someone, including satan, makes an accusation it does not mean the person is guilty of what they have been accused. What point are you trying to make?

What accusation did Satan bring against Jesus? How about posting that scripture. A person does not have to be guilty to be accused of something. Look at what Peter said to those who were slanderously spoken of when they did nothing wrong. 1Pe 2:11-15 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. (12) Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation. (13) Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, (14) or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. (15) For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. People accuse others all the time, just like Christ was accused by the Pharisees, because the life we are living makes them realize their deeds are evil and so they hate us like they hated Christ. They want to make us look bad so they will accuse us of everything under the sun just like Satan does. Joh 7:7 "The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil. Luk 6:22-23 "Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man. (23) "Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven. For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets. Take my ex-wife for example, she has accused me of sexually abusing my daughters, threatening to shoot her and my daughters, etc. when none of it was true because she was seeking to destroy me because her deeds were evil. She had turned from God, became a stripper, a drug dealer, and a prostitute and the judge restricted her access to her daughters. I was guilty of nothing yet I was accused. Again I ask, what accusation did Satan bring against Jesus? The passage you posted is about gentiles bringing accusations against believers, which ironically, is what you are doing. Who do you think was controlling the Pharisees? It was the devil, for Christ said their father was the devil, John 8:31-59. They were constantly accusing Him of wrong doing and constantly trying to get Him to do something wrong. Just do a search for the word accuse. John is discussing accusations before the throne of God the Father, not of men accusing others. When does Satan accuse Jesus of anything in scripture? By your understanding of this passage you must believe that Satan will not be thrown out of heaven until the second coming. Read the previous verses. Also notice that the accuser accuses them day and night. He is continually accusing those who are following Christ before God. It is not talking about just the day of judgement as you are trying to claim. Rev 12:7-10 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, (8) and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. (9) And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. (10) Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

Do you believe God is able to keep you from stumbling and that He will always provide a way out? If you do not then your striving is futile and will lead to nothing. It is only when you believe in what God has promised us that your striving will amount to what god's purpose is for each of us, which is sanctification through His Spirit. Who are you to claim everyone continues to sin when the Bible does not teach what you believe? Who made you judge? God says we are not to judge the world but those who are so called brothers. Be careful about what you claim. 1Co 5:8-13 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (9) I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; (10) I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. (11) But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one. (12) For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? (13) But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES. When Paul speaks of doing more it is only in regards to excelling even more in love. When it comes to sin he only speaks of stopping and ceasing from sin, never about striving against sin. 1Th 4:1-12 Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more. (2) For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. (3) For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; (4) that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, (5) not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; (6) and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. (7) For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. (8) So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you. (9) Now as to the love of the brethren, you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another; (10) for indeed you do practice it toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, to excel still more, (11) and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands, just as we commanded you, (12) so that you will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need. We are to overcome sin through Him and His Spirit. If we are still sinning then we are not victorious. Jesus paved the way but we must walk in it. If we continue to sin then sin still has power over us. Paul says it is those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God and He also says those who are led by the Spirit will not fulfill the desire of the flesh. If we continue to sin then we are not being led by His Spirit and therefore we cannot claim we are sons of God. There is no way to read these verses any differently. It is his work on the cross that forgives us of our past sins and his work in us through His Spirit that keeps us from sin. So yes we have victory through Him, but it is complete victory. Victory depends on us believing in what God has promised us. If we do not believe He is able to keep us from stumbling by always providing the way out then we will not have victory, for it is our faith that overcomes the world. If nothing depends on us then we do not even have to believe. 1Co 15:56-58 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; (57) but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (58) Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord. 1Jn 5:1-5 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. (2) By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. (3) For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. (4) For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. (5) Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 2Pe 2:18-20 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, (19) promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. (20) For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. All of the following verses are speaking about us overcoming and do not declare we overcome because of Christ’s work on the cross. They overcome because they listened to what the Spirit had to say and have done as they have been instructed. This is the Spirit sent to them because Christ died on the cross and returned to the Father. It is through Christ that we overcome by His Spirit. 1Jn 2:13-14 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. (14) I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one. 1Jn 4:4-7 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. (5) They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. (6) We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (7) Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Rev 2:7 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.' Rev 2:11 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.' Rev 2:17 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.' Rev 2:25-29 'Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come. (26) 'He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; (27) AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father; (28) and I will give him the morning star. (29) 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.' Rev 3:4-5 'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. (5) 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Rev 3:12 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name. Rev 3:21 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. Rev 21:6-8 Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. (7) "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. (8) "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." I will state this again. No one ever received anything God promised unless they did exactly as He commanded them. Even Christ had to do exactly as the Father commanded to receive His glory. The only difference between before and after Christ is we now can directly receive His Spirit just like Christ did to guide us in the way we should walk. This is why He died for our past sins. The Spirit cannot dwell where sin resides.

What accusation did Satan bring against Jesus? How about posting that scripture. A person does not have to be guilty to be accused of something. Look at what Peter said to those who were slanderously spoken of when they did nothing wrong. 1Pe 2:11-15 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. (12) Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation. (13) Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, (14) or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. (15) For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. People accuse others all the time, just like Christ was accused by the Pharisees, because the life we are living makes them realize their deeds are evil and so they hate us like they hated Christ. They want to make us look bad so they will accuse us of everything under the sun just like Satan does. Joh 7:7 "The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil. Luk 6:22-23 "Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man. (23) "Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven. For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets. Take my ex-wife for example, she has accused me of sexually abusing my daughters, threatening to shoot her and my daughters, etc. when none of it was true because she was seeking to destroy me because her deeds were evil. She had turned from God, became a stripper, a drug dealer, and a prostitute and the judge restricted her access to her daughters. I was guilty of nothing yet I was accused. Again I ask, what accusation did Satan bring against Jesus? The passage you posted is about gentiles bringing accusations against believers, which ironically, is what you are doing. Who do you think was controlling the Pharisees? It was the devil, for Christ said their father was the devil, John 8:31-59. They were constantly accusing Him of wrong doing and constantly trying to get Him to do something wrong. Just do a search for the word accuse.