Diaste

I will closely note no such thing. The gathering of evidence here seems sketchy as much evidence is left out, the analysis wanting. I might get back to this later.

Not predestination as you seem to define it. Using a single verse in Romans 8 as evidence for the definition negates a volume of scripture.

I don't think it beyond possibility that preppers could be part of a fringe group. And it's also true there are survivors of the nations that fought against Christ that live on, and go up to worship the Lord year after year. And again, I see 'all' as 'to each, or every, as it applies'. It's quite possible there will be some resisting the tyranny of the beast who do not confess the Lord Jesus nor believe he was raised from the dead. So then even though we don't see it in scripture beyond mere implication, I don't see a prohibition. I see all that, who is saved and who is not saved, being sorted out at the GWT. I think up to that point, the GWT, it's not so black and white.

Maybe it's more "all who are aware". While I agree 'pas' is at it's root meaning, 'every', 'all', the idea is 'to each and every as it applies'. So then it doesn't have to mean 'every person alive at the time' and it cannot. One exception is those whose names are written in the book of life, the undeceived elect. I have heard there are tribes deep in the Amazonian forest that have no contact with the outside world. They may never know about the mark. Although, given the global upheavals in the natural order that come with the advent of the beast, I would think even they would understand something was up.

Yeah, I can see that. It seems like some go into it with a conclusion in search of support instead of walking the path of fact finding leading to a conclusion. @truth7t7 does this when one fact is true and all other facts are ignored. False premise leads to false conclusions.

Yeah. It's a 'cult mindset'. I consider many of them as NPCs, unable to overcome the programming. I gave up on them a long time ago. I see that behavior as an opportunity to dig in and speak the truth of scripture for all the others watching and listening. Don't know if that's right or wrong, but I'm no longer frustrated with that one individual that just can't seem to speak the truth.

So is it the 'on earth' thing that confounds you, or is it just the whole 1000 year reign of Christ? Now, now....that's not what I said. I said it's not a hard thing to place it there, as in the time line of prophecy. And I don't know why you would accuse me of 'adding' when Rev 20:4 says, "And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." And that's every version, including Young's and Darby's. Rev 22: "I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book." It's not adding or subtracting from His word, it's adding or subtracting from THIS BOOK, meaning the book of Revelation. It seems you subtract this: " And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." No. I simply conclude that in the timeline of biblical prophecy it is a reasonable moment on the continuum for a 1000 year duration of kingly reign; given all the evidence.

And they lived and reigned with Christ 1000 years, means what? None of this contradicts a 1000 year reign of Christ where the group specified in Rev 20 reigns and lives with Jesus. It's not a hard thing to place the 1000 year reign of Jesus, and those that reign with Him, between verse 23 and 24. Verse 24 is a reference to Rev 20:7-10 where this happens:"And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heavena and consumed them. 10And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." That is when Jesus will have, "put down all rule and all authority and power."

The only ones I see in the 1st, or primary, resurrection are: After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands 13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?” 14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.” So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they[meaning the beheaded and those that refused the mark and worship of the beast] came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. I don't see written anywhere that all the dead from all time, from Adam to the 2nd advent, are resurrected at the primary resurrection.

That's the way I read it. Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete.

I think the timeline from Rev 20 and 21 is clear and concise. Resurrection, reign, 2nd resurrection, Judgment and the new and heaven an earth. I see no reason to rearrange or reassign the text of Rev 20 and 21. If there is no millennial reign, what's this? And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Those who fight against Christ will lose. I think the idea here is fight Christ actively like a in battle, as depicted at Armageddon. There will be survivors of those nations that will live in the Millennium. Those in the Millennium kingdom living and reigning with Jesus will be those faithful gathered up at His return. The rest of the wicked and those of other beliefs will appear at the Judgment at the Great White Throne. That's how I read it.

I know, right? I get there are physical laws and they are beneficial, but they are also chains. God has no such restraints and can literally do anything at any moment. Some out there are like Jesus rose again and saved us from our sins, what a miracle! God can do anything! Then those same people think God required natural processes to bring forth life as we see it, and is somehow bound by those same processes. SMH.

None of that is my choice. One plants, another waters, God gives the increase. No man saved me. I was saved by the knowledge given to me by the Holy Spirit, as we all were. No man saves anyone. I don't know for sure about all 8 billion people on earth, but I'm convinced they have all heard about Jesus and what He did. We can speak, God must save.

Even as congress has authorized spying on American Citizens through the Patriot Act, in violation of the right to privacy clause of the Constitution, they say this garbage? So TikTok collects data? Why is there sensitive data on TikTok? What American would post data on TikTok that could potentially compromise national security? Are government agencies using TikTok as a conduit for the sharing of top secret information? Allowing the Chinese government to access and store that data? It's a farce. They are banning a platform they have no control over, trying to control public opinion and limit damage to their hold on power. Most tyrants lead with 'good of the country', 'national security', etc., hiding their true intent.

You would delay the Return of Jesus? The end can start tomorrow as far as I'm concerned.

For Pete's sake...of course they deny it. Have you seen the behavior of the pilgrims? There are photos of their obvious and very public reverence of the Kaaba, and the Black Stone. Denial proves nothing. Oh no! They would take offense because someone accused them of the very thing they are doing? Most people when caught in their naughty behavior take offense and deny it. Denial, again, proves nothing. We are looking for Islamic takeover. It's already happening.

Time will tell. Yes, it would be in keeping with a religious fanatic to kill someone who tells the truth. Kinda like the religious leaders who killed Jesus when He spoke the truth. In any case, you know what the Black Stone is, you know what the Kaaba is, you know what the pilgrimage to Mecca is, you have likely seen the photos or videos of pilgrims circling the Kaaba and kissing the Black Stone, yet you seem deny the idol worship? " The Black Stone (Arabic: ٱلْحَجَرُ ٱلْأَسْوَد, romanized: al-Ḥajar al-Aswad) is a rock set into the eastern corner of the Kaaba, the ancient building in the center of the Grand Mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. It is revered by Muslims as an Islamic relic which, according to Muslim tradition, dates back to the time of Adam and Eve. The stone was venerated at the Kaaba in pre-Islamic pagan times. According to Islamic tradition, it was set intact into the Kaaba's wall by the Islamic prophet Muhammad in 605 CE, five years before his first revelation. Since then, it has been broken into fragments and is now cemented into a silver frame in the side of the Kaaba. Its physical appearance is that of a fragmented dark rock, polished smooth by the hands of pilgrims. It has often been described as a meteorite. Burke, John G. (1991). Cosmic Debris: Meteorites in History. University of California Press. pp. 221–23. ISBN 978-0-520-07396-8." Muslim pilgrims circle the Kaaba as a part of the tawaf ritual during the hajj and many try to stop to kiss the Black Stone, emulating the kiss that Islamic tradition records that it received from Muhammad. Elliott, Jeri (1992). Your Door to Arabia. Lower Hutt, N.Z.: R. Eberhardt. ISBN 978-0-473-01546-6. ^ Mohamed, Mamdouh N. (1996). Hajj to Umrah: From A to Z. Amana Publications. ISBN 978-0-915957-54-5. While the Black Stone is revered, Islamic theologians emphasize that it has no divine significance and that its importance is historical in nature. Hedin, Christer (2010). "Muslim Pilgrimage as Education by Experience". Scripta Instituti Donneriani Aboensis. 22: 176. CiteSeerX 10.1.1.1017.315. doi:10.30674/scripta.67366. OCLC 7814979907. S2CID 191262972. " And isn't it deep hypocrisy in a religious sect, a hypocrisy that seems to permeate every religion, to claim blasphemy for worshiping idols when they literally are called to worship an idol? And you really believe Islam won't worship the incarnation of Satan in the form of the beast and the image? Especially so when the beast is so powerful the entire world, including the radical Islamic murderers, know they can't make war with the beast? I don't think Islam is as pure in their religious identity as you seem to think.

Apologies. I'm bowing out. Be blessed.

MY translation? My word. How is that germane? What you quoted needs to align with Rev 19. Rev 19 is during the war when all the armies of earth are gathered to wage war against Jesus. Your conclusion is a non sequitur. Technically after the 6th seal. The gathering doesn't happen till the trump sounds, to wit: "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." "And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds," This is the 7th trump, the 6th seal is the herald of Jesus' return. There is no gathering till trumpet sounds. Take heart, the 7th trump sounds in conjunction with the 6th seal, so you are half right. Nope. Not possible. As you can see the gathering happens after the trump is sounded. That's discrimination. It's the people of God. The only time Jews are mentioned in Revelation is in less that flattering terms. You certainly lack any imagery of a pretrib group in heaven. Unless you are going to shuffle the gathering around in the text to make it appear pretrib, then the one and only gathering is of those who got the victory over the beast, after the A of D, during GT, up to the arrival of Jesus. As you know, I do understand that. I cited this many, many times over the years. What you fail to realize is the gathering happens at the last trump, immediately following the 6th seal event, to be precise. No, they are the 1st taken in the gathering from GT. Then present the text that proves this akin to Rev 7 generally and this specifically: " “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" And.... "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." According to the text the only ones taken up to heaven when Jesus arrives are those out from within GT and the ones who overcame the beast or lost their heads for the testimony of Jesus and the word of God. So where is this vast group of perfect people you claim are in heaven before the last week begins? No text supports such a thing. Pretibbers always misconstrue the text. This is an argument from desperation and frankly, I'm weary of dealing with it. So now your insistence on the gathering at the 6th is waning. And you're right back to it. The text says: "And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect" "with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise." "52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable" Deny it all you want. It's run it's course and I'm out. Blessings.

Well that's just denial of historical evidence. The idea of Rome is made up based on 'one is' from Rev 17. Two words, an entire false doctrine arises. If Revelation was given to John in 95 AD, then Domitian would be on the throne, the 11th. Certainly not the 6th. Please... these people worship a rock. Their faith goes to whatever benefits them or the highest bidder. It's a weak pretense to contend they have some pure faith in an unknown god.

I don't argue that. Didn't say that and don't think it. No. the context is: He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, So are you saying the antichrist has been alive for 2000 years? and wrath has been occurring for 2000 years? No. Jesus prophesied well after the Dan 9 A of D. That happened in 168-167 BC. Oh? Can you cite documentation of these historical events that continue from when they happened to this day? 7Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass. 8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed. 10Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil,a and many people died from the bitter waters. 12Then the fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun and moon and stars were struck. A third of the stars were darkened, a third of the day was without light, and a third of the night as well. Just repeating isn't evidence. Where is the evidence?

Of course. Probably not, more like the 6th century AD. Rome is dead. The RCC is not Rome. Rome is dead and gone. You know what did survive, Islam. In greater numbers now than ever. Where is Rome and the Caesars? No where. Nope.

The prophecies say: and the whole world marveled and followed the beast. and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast And the second beast required all people small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark How does one conclude this isn't the entire ground and all the people on the ground? Titus didn't come close, neither the Mongols nor Islam cam close. The above is comprehensive and can't be explained away using ancient rulers. According to the prophecies the time spans are two 42 month periods. Forty two months is forty two months, not 2000 years. Rejection of Jesus. Doesn't prove what you think it does. And? I don't. The A of D, the beast, the GT and the gathering and the return of Jesus all happen within a 7 year period. If you can find a way to define two 42 month periods as 2000 years then I would like to read about it. And if you are talking about context referring to audience and how the prophecies were only meant for the 1st century listeners, then every word Jesus spoke is only meant for 1st century hearers. Of course we can't have that. I have heard this context argument before and I find it fails. I didn't hear Jesus mention this as part of the end of the age. Sure.

If you stop there, but if you keep reading...GT then follows the flight, and the return of Jesus follows GT. So the flight has to be worse than any other time in history and never repeated, and Jesus would have been back 42 months max after the A of D. So no, didn't happen.