AdHoc

Hey Sister ..... NICE!

I think your argument fails with the word "WHOLE" or "ALL" (the earth). There is no place to sit it out. The rest of the verse agrees. "Those ON EARTH" will be tried. Added to this the wording is not "KEPT IN THE HOUR", but "KEPT FROM THE HOUR". Added to this the word "HOUR" cannot mean a PLACE. It means that some are ABSENT DURING THE TIME of trial. The verse seems far from vague. It seems emphatic to me. They had already been awarded "crowns" but are warned that they could be lost.

Thank you for the invitation. Here, very briefly, is my understanding. In Matthew 13 the Lord Jesus gave seven parables on the Kingdom. By Kingdom I mean that area or sphere where Jesus is King and His instructions are followed. While He was on earth the demons were subject to Him and angels ministered to Him, making Him King of the principalities of heaven. But our Lord never interfered with the kings of men. So, during the gospel age, the "Kingdom of Heaven" pertains to the Church only. The seven parables of Matthew 13 show the development of this Kingdom of Heaven (NOT Kingdom IN Heaven). In these parables certain opposition was to be expected. Unfruitful Christians, Counterfeit Christians, a mustard seed that brings forth Nebuchadnezzar's Tree and Leaven are put there by the enemy. Three of four Parables told from the boat have a harvest and one alludes to a harvest, being bread. And the Lord was clear that the end of the age for the Church was a HARVEST (v.39). Moving to prophecy on the end of the age, we see four harvests (Rev.14). 2nd Peter 1:20 forbids private interpretation of prophecy. That leaves only the Bible and Nature to interpret prophecy. And if we study the harvest in nature and the harvest in the Bible (Leviticus 23) it is clear that any harvest is divided into three sub-harvests. It is ONE HARVEST, but no farmer will reap unripe fruit. That which is first ripe is NOT left on a Tree or bush. It is taken into the farmers HOUSE because he has waited long for the sweet fruit. Some time later the rest of the crop ripens and a general harvest takes place. The crop goes into the farmers BARN. The law of the harvest says that gleanings must be left for the weak, sickly, disadvantaged like widows and fatherless children. That gives THREE GATHERINGS in ONE HARVEST. And so is the rapture - by the mouth of Jesus Himself (Matthew 13:39). But this is not all. If there are "partial raptures" and the rapture is split into gatherings for a harvest, we can expect to see SOME Christians in the clouds with the Son of Man while SOME are left to face the Great Tribulation. And this is the case! In at least THREE scriptures we see Christians saved from the Great Tribulation. The most notable is Revelation 3:10. There, AS A REWARD, Overcomers will be "KEPT FROM THE HOUR OF TRIAL" that encompasses the WHOLE earth. Note the grammar. It is NOT "Kept IN the hour". It is "kept FROM the hour" And the usage of the "HOUR" means that some are ABSENT for the TIME of the Great Tribulation. Next, Luke 21 is different to Matthew 24 and 25. It deals mainly with 70 AD. But this prophecy ends in verse 24 with the times of the Gentiles FULL. The Lord Jesus abruptly changes to the signs of His coming. Like many prophecies, He jumps over time that is not relevant - like Joel's prophecy that Peter quoted in Acts 2. 2,000 years are skipped over. In Luke 21 the Lord has not yet come because in verse 26 his COMING is mentioned but verse 27 refers the reader BACK TO WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN. According to Matthew 24 the coming of Jesus in great glory is "AFTER the Tribulation of those days". So in Luke 21:35-36 the diligent and watchful Christian who gets to stand before the Son of Man does so WHILE HE IS STILL IN THE CLOUDS. Notice too, like Revelation 3:10, it is CONDITIONAL. It is a REWARD for watching. Next, in Philippians 3:9:14 Paul is opening his heart abut his state of Christian maturity. Paul was not sure that he was mature enough. This had serious consequences. Paul says that he would need maturity to "ATTAIN to the resurrection" and to get the PRIZE of the "Upward call". he is addressing the SAME SUBJECT as 1st Thessalonians 4:13-17 - a special resurrection (like Revelation 20:1-6) and a PRIZE of a call to go upwards! The KJV is not wrong in its translation, but it is misleading. The New King James corrects it. It is a "calling on high", not a "High calling". So Paul says that there is a "out-resurrection", or "exceptional-resurrection" to be ATTAINED and a PRIZE rapture to be gained ONLY IF YOU ARE MATURE. Conversely, there are at least FOUR scriptures that show saints going through the Great Tribulation. In Revelation 7:9-16 we find a huge crowd from every nation who went through the Great Tribulation. The reason given is that their "garments" needed washing. "A Garment in parable is one's works (Rev.19:7-8). In Revelation 12:17 those who "had the testimony of Jesus Christ" must flee to a wilderness and be helped by the earth from the persecution of the Dragon. No escape for them! In Revelation 13:7 the Beast makes war with the saints during his rule AND OVERCOMES THEM! In Revelation 18:4 we find God's people in Mystery Babylon. With these, and more proofs, a split rapture, or multiple partial rapture is fact. The only objection left is; "why did the Holy Spirit not mention that a pre-tribulation rapture was a PRIZE in 1st Thessalonians 4:13-17"? But if you read the whole letter the answer is given. The Thessalonians are the best Church in the New Testament. No moral problems are attributed to them.

Yeah. I just wanted to be clear because the KJV, for all its excellence, didn't quite transmit the meaning. The subject of tis passgae in Philippians 3 is the same as 1st Thessalonians 4:13-17 - resurrection and rapture. Only, in Philippians the "OUT-resurrection" ("ex-anastasis") and the PRIZE of the firstfruit rapture must be ATTAINED TO. Paul, as he wrote that, had less than four years left to his martyrdom - and he wasn't convinced that he'd attained to it. Now that is a wake-up call!

Yes, but then its too late. But I know what you're getting at:

Don't expect anything from your flesh. It'll get exited about what is illegal. But maybe our lives are in a comfort zone and we don't want upheaval. The outer man is alive and well. The grand Type is Amalek. God has declared war "from generation to generation". Amalek was known because he attacked the aged, the sick and the weak stragglers. On Sunday at midday when you've just had a meaty Word and sung some of the old songs that edify, the flesh will be indifferent. On Friday after a hard week with little appreciation from your boss and your wife, the lingering eye contact with an eligible woman will have your flesh doing an Irish River Dance. Double vigilance when you're weak! Indifference to prophecy is OK when it doesn't apply to you. Guys want to bang heads over Daniel. But it is about "Daniel's People". Shall I lose my brother over something that does not concern me. Even the Fig Leaves can be viewed with a cold heart. It's Israel and their Law. But my attitude towards my brother when I expound is VERY important. "That evil servant" did it and lost the kingdom because his Master came as a thief (Matt.24). Now that moves me!

Agreed. Can't argue with that! Have you ever considered that prophecy is supposed to get our attention. I makes us "strive" for the PRIZE of the "UPward Call" (lit. Gk.- Phil.3:9-14)

You did a masterful job of ducking every one of my objections. So let's try another direction in answering yours. Israel, or the Jews (if you wish) have two Covenants with God. The one of Promise made with Abraham and his seed, and the one made with Jacob's seed at Sinai. In which Covenant (scripture please) is FAITH required. In the one made with Abraham the Jews' part is circumcision, and in the Covenant of Sinai, keeping the Law is required. How can my perspective contradict Isaiah 65 when I gave Daniel 12:1-2 as proof that even the SLAIN are returned to their Land? How can my perspective be against Isaiah 65 when in the Valley of dry bones, "the WHOLE house of ISRAEL" (v.11) is resurrected and united in their Land. Are not these the "baddies". Their sins are what got them deported to other nations. And what FAITH is required in verse 23 to "cleanse all Israel"? Let's join together and count how many times God said He would forgive Israel with no mention of conditions except to return to Him. I'll start: 25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. (Is 43:24–25)

I'll play the "Devil's Advocate" for the sake of debte, especially with my old contender @Marilyn C (smiley) For those living in the "Bible belt" of the USA, I assume they've heard something about rapture and "the end of the world". But the millions in the Amazonas and Siberia have hardly heard of Jesus. I think that in Arizona you might have a chance, but the Mongolian shepherd boy is not going to be moved by what happens in Jerusalem. His life is just to hard to scare him. But this does not mean I'm against the plan. Paul, under inspiration, said that even those who, out of jealousy against him, who told the authorities tat he was preaching another king, were preaching Christ. I say, all avenues are open, but that we must not forget that for a man to turn, he must be convicted that he s a sinner. He has to confess Jesus as Lord. Gehenna must be more frightening than siding with the Beast and getting his mark. "Fear not them which can kill the body .... (Matt.10:28). What say you all?

I'm not so sure about your appreciation for the "blood" of Jews and about "circumcised in heart with Christ's way". 1. the promise to Abraham was to him and his SEED. If Jew A has four children they are seed of Abraham. If one of them marries a Turk and they have four children, they are SEED of Abraham via the Jewish part. If you argue that the bloodline is untrue, you have then to explain why Jesus could be a Jew with Rahab, Ruth and company in His genealogy. Scripture validates the male line as Jesus is of David's House. So also does scripture validate the female line as Jesus was a Jew from Mary - him not having a biological father. 2. Ezekiel 37 covers Israel's recovery. Since seed of Jacob died in Egypt, the Wilderness, the Land of Canaan and the countries that they were dispersed to LONG before Christ's "WAY", Ezekiel must include grave sinners. Daniel 12:1-2 shows that even the evil will be resurrected and returned to the Land. The matter is confirmed by Pentecost were there were many "PIUS" men from the dispersion in Jerusalem form diverse countries. Why were thy not in Israel? 3. Jumping ahead of Romans 2, Romans 11 is a serious indictment against "ALL ISRAEL". They are "concluded in unbelief by God until the times of the Gentiles be full" That is, Israel, as a recognized Nation by the Holy Spirit remains in unbelief till the end of the age, and God's forgiveness of their sins is pure grace. The matter is certainly not simple.

I am not gifted with evangelism although I am aware of each and every Christian's duty to preach both the gospel of grace and the gospel of the Kingdom. So my experience is not comprehensive. My understanding is that a man must first be born again and then he will have a chance of understanding God's Word, especially prophecy. I would like to quote Romans 1 on the general condition of unregenerate man. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: My question is, what chance does any man have of understanding the things of God - especially the complexities of prophecy, if God has darkened the mind AND the man acts foolishly? What the Holy Spirit was given for was convicting of sin and judgment. So John 16:7-9 ... Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; (Jn 16:7–9) Your feedback and experiences with the "last days" scenario would be very interesting.

Yes. The Church has TWO STANDINGS, just as Israel did when Balaam tried to curse them. The one standing is their POSITION in Christ. Here, God only sees Christ and we are all IN HIM. We are loved, approved and justified just like God's Son. But Judges and Acts tell us that Israel worshiped idols in Egypt, throughout their 40-year wilderness and in the Good Land. Israel had a DISPOSITION for idol worship. This ended in defeat and dispersion among heathens. The Church is the fairest of Brides in Christ's eyes, but the parables make it quite clear that she will not be without spot or wrinkle when He comes. That ... will take another 1,000 years.

No my dear sister. Your verse says WHO immersed us into One Body - NOT the SUBSTANCE of Christ's Body. Here is what scripture says about that 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. (1 Co 6:15) "OUR BODIES" are physical. That is why, when Christ predicted His Church in Matthew 16 He based it on "The GATES of Hades". The Church suffers loss when a member dies and is BUILT when men in resurrection are RAISED. In Luke 24:38-39 our Lord was very particular when He said that His risen BODY was not spirit! You must also consider another point with your example. "ONE BODY" is not the LOCAL Assembly. It is the UNIVERSAL Assembly. DIVISIONS (denominations) are a matter of the LOCAL Church Yet again you have misread the grammar. The Holy Spirit, through Paul, states emphatically that divisions are a result of the flesh. I 1st Corinthians the Church is rebuked over their DIVISION caused by Apollos wrong doctrine about Baptism that caused the believers of Ephesus NOT to receive the Holy Spirit in Acts 19. Those who were supporters of Apollus are rebuked AS WELL as those who were for Christ 1st Corinthians 1:10-16. There he asks "IS CHRIST DIVIDED"? Your answer above promotes an answer of YES! But in Chapter 3 Paul is much stronger. Verses 1-4 read; 1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Any division, even on so great a matter as Baptism, is "CARNAL" and causes Christians to be stunted in their growth! And so it is in Ephesians 4. TWO UNITIES are promoted. The UNITY of the Spirit, already established (v.3) must be kept "TILL the UNITY of the THE Faith is come in. P.S. 1. What is "spiritual" is God's House (1st Pet 2:4). God is a Spirit (Jn.4:24) and does not dwell in physical Houses any more. P.S. 2. Emmanuel (God with us) will live in a House made with hands in the Millennium, but Emmanuel is Jesus THE MAN "in Whom all the fullness of the Godhead dwells BODILY" (Col.2:9). Ezekiel's Temple - of course.

Yes. This could be. The Jews were flattened by the accuracy of Isaiah concerning Christ's first coming. And history scholars are astounded at Daniel. But no one was aghast more than Cyrus when he occupied Babylon and found a foreign people there with a book written 150 years before with his name, spelt correctly, written as conqueror.

Your second last paragraph was sorely needed. There is much debate as to why the word "Ekklesia" was translated Church by such eminent scholars. What is sure is that the Roman Church exerted all its might to have it that way, just as "Easter" is used instead of Passover in Acts.12:4. And one can well see the extent of this mistranslation when we see that a heathen political assembly could be called "the Church" in Acts 19:39 and a riotous mob in verses 32 and 41. How far astray we are when a riotous mob or a dark empty building can be equated with the glorious Body of Christ. What skulduggery! The very first allusion to the real meaning of the word "Ekklesia" is the Nation of Israel as they encamped by three Tribes a side around the Tabernacle. It was called the "Tabernacle of CONGREGATION"! Day and night for over 38 years Israel was that special "gathering of the select ones" - the true meaning of Ekklesia. Then Israel entered and conquered Canaan and it is sadly reported after this that "every man went to his house ...". But God saw this coming. He is never taken by surprise. And so He ordained seven Feasts, each connected to the harvest and which commanded Israel again to a gather "at that place He chose to put His Name". And then came that dreary day when Israel was "scattered" among the Nations. God then invested His All - His Son Jesus, to create a heavenly gathering on earth by a heavenly birth and a heavenly nature. THE "gathering of the select ones" was glorious and "they gathered from house to House to break bread". But alas, these select ones found every reason NOT to GATHER - from doctrine to widows' portions they found reasons to be divided - the OPPOSITE of "Gathering". And in their conceit they hatch the word DENOMINATIONS - another word for DIVISIONS! And what do we have today? According to "Quora" on the Internet, Indianapolis in the US of A has over 3,000 Assemblies. What will Jehovah make of this in the day of retribution? Did He not make a Promise that whosoever marred His Assembly, He would mar (1st Cor.3:16-17)? Pastor, did you remember, when you took half the congregation away because of a doctrine, that God called ANY Division "FLESHLY"? Did you notice that in 1st Corinthians 1:10-13 that even those who divided because they were FOR CHRIST are in the rebuke. Maybe you are right. Maybe the sisters who don't wear head covering are an eyesore. Maybe half the congregation object to full immersion and another half won't support you financially - all important things. But who is the man who DIVIDES what the Lord has GATHERED? Yes, sins of leavenous nature must be dealt with. The adulterous and the incestuous must go. The practicing homosexual and the man who will not work must be separated until they repent. But to make another DENOMINATION is certainly not the way to go. Have you ever realized that scattering is a sign of God's judgement. Babel and Israel ended in scattering. And now Indianapolis has 3,000 Assemblies. Where will I find the Assembly at Indianapolis?