PeteC-UK

Hi Folks.. Timothy; What do you mean by those references..?...The quote frm Matthew - Christ is telling the Pharisees - again they are wrong,hypocrits He says.... Are you saying then,there is some hypocrasy here..?...I know you intended me to see the part that reads - "“‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’[c]”" Here,Yeshua is applying this judgement to the PHARISEES - the spiritual authority and its MAN MADE RULES...How does this apply to anything I have presented..?..In all honestly,you should have started your quote one line earlier - to include the part where He says : "Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition." For indeed,that IS what is happening HERE - the word of god,as delivered by Christ Himself - is overlooked here in this discussion - for the SAKE of YOUR TRADITION - for the sake of things taught to you in error by the very "authoirty" that Yeshua was OPPOSED to - for He told you clearly NOT to trust these authorities,and the quote from Matthew above,is yet another example where He is in diect confrontation - OPPOSED TO - the religious authority.. What is your quote meant to highlight then..?...MY "hypocrasy" - or the hypocrasy of some who have respnded..?...Clearly,acording to Christ,He was judgng the TRADITIONAL VIEW,and said through such blind obediance to the thngs you are taught,you forego the TRUTH of god...

Hi Folks.. Hippie; Yer,I HAVE appraoched it from that angle - believed as you do,that that MUST be what He meant - but see - other similar thngs He says,makes it become very clear.. Like for instance,when He says basically He is teaching now a SECRET that none had EVER comprehended before Him,INCLUDING the "angels above" HE said..Well,thats not the jewish god then as they know that god already,fully,intimately... And like for instance,where He ACTUALLY explains CREATION itself - the comlpete how and why of it - the complete order and heirachy,including His OWN origins...He makes it very clear indeed - to simplify,He says the TRUE Divine is a MIND that exists WITHOUT MATERIAL FORM - completely ABSTRACT Self awareness...He says this mind,which He terms FATHER,is ALWAYS a TRINITY,3 DISTINCT PERSONALITIES exist in this formless state as One Being..THEIR interactions,mind to mind,cause the "material world" to form..I coud explain this in deep mataphysical detail if needed,just as HE DID - yet strangely,such crucial spirtual wisdom is distinctly lacking int he bible accounts... He tells us that one aspect of the Father mind,His "counterpart",which He names as Sofia (you would know Her as the Holy ghst of course) - Christ says that quite by accident,She ALONE and without His aid,creates an "angel" - and because She did this alone without Christ,this angel turns out to be "malformed",corrupt - indeed,Christ says explicity,this angel resembles a "Dragon"..Sofia,out of shame and remorse CASTS THE DRAGON OUT OF HEAVEN,creates for it a "lesser realm" and HIDES it to conceal Her MISTAKE... Christ places no blame or judgement on this act - merely says She IS Divine,and Her inherant power,unchecked,unguarded,casued this ACCIDENT to happen.. This is OUR origns....This Angel awakes to itself ALONE and UNIQUE in its world - it has no idea at all of any other existance except this "place" where it finds it Self ALONE..And see,it is DIVINE,of the Divine mind,with limited simialr capabitity - its thoughts an d will likewise cal forth creatin,and so this Angel is soon populateing its orld with its OWN angels and heirachies,creatingits own realms and worlds - these are of course OUR HEAVENS and the Earth upon which we dwell... And of course so far,NONE OF THEM know anyhting about the TRUE Divine as remeberhere,OUR cornerof creation is purposefully HIDDEN and obscured fromthe true heavens !! He wil then go on to recount an event in the true heavens - creation of a being known as ADAMUS - and it is THIS event - so absolutely magnificent,that it reverbrates thoughout ALL CREATION,breaks apart this concealing veil between the relams,and now,Yahweh and his angels are finally aware of a GREATER and PRE EXISTANT SOURCE of Divine creation.... Im sure you can already see similarities between the bible version of genesis - it is Yahweh who is cast out of heaven as a dragon -CHRIST SAYS..And later when Adamus is created and the two realms become revealed to each other - one of yahwehs own angels,questions him and says basically - "WHAT is that other realm..?..WHO is THAT god there..?..Can WE go and ivestigate"....And this is the origin of your "satan" character - NOT challenging a LEGITIMATE god - but questionng a false god,and seeking to know LEGITIMATE truth.... Yahweh is not happy about any of this - and who can blame Him..In one instant,he learns he is NOT supreme after all - he learns he has a Mother and Creator - and he learns that for some reason,His mother/creator ABANDONED Him alone in this hidden realm..HE is MOST unhappy as you can imagine..HE wants NOTHING to do with the TRUE Divine,and in his anger he forbids his own entourage from EVER ascendng ABOVE HIM to investigate this new occurrence..Thus we are told "lucifer challenges gods authoirty" - but actually Christ WILL say this god is deceiving his angels and later,us too;that this god was NEVER supreme,but coveted that position and authoirty for itself... To appease his angels and to stamp his authirty - yahweh gathers them together,and says basically - "yer Adamus - big deal,WE can do that too - let US make a man after THAT image" - and thus,mankind enters stage left,as it were...We are CREATURES and we were made in our turn by another CREATURE...Christ wil lay it all lout step by step,from Our Fathers ifrst Self awareness,through to Adam ane Eve..Whilst His version IS similar to the bible narrative,HE does make it very clear,the god Yahweh is itself an Angel,a CREATED being,similar to You and I... So,a most resounding NO then - He is NOT telling the jews,they simply dont know the "nature of god",He is ACTUALY telling them they worship an entriely DIFFERENT deity,and there is no doubt there,because first as I say,HE repeatedly says all this is NEW and SECRET - and remember here,the Hebews ALREADY know their god intimately,so it cant be that god that Christ refers to - and besides - well - He lays it out in EXPLICIT DETAIL,gives names ,events,causes and explanations for it all - so no,its not me being misled here,I dont thnik...

Hi Folks.. George; Actually Im quite well versed in the bible,learned it,discussed it nightly with my mother who was very orthodox,devout...Kind of lost my way early teens - went right off the rails a bit later - now getting back on track so to speak....I fpinmf Christ I believe in a way I nevr thought was possible,a personal every day way - but itwas not accomplished through any church,bible study or words of men - He showed up directly,so to speak,in a most profound way..I hesitate to say more at present - but mention this to emphasise - just bcause you are TAUGHT the ible is th eoNLy sourceof "truth" - doesnt necassarily mean it iS so....LIkewise,just because a thing is institutionalised and established as truth,again,doesnt necassarily mean it is fonded in truth at all... The situation here is ACTUALLY one where the church authority DICTATES truth to us - and forbids any othe sources of POSSIBLE truth...Well,like I said - they tell us a doctrine of Holy Spirit,which discriminates Divine truth - yes..?..So,the very fact they then forbid things to us,tells us either the Holy Spirit is a fraud,or else we would not need ther rules at all,we would come to Christ THROUGH the bible and their teachng - come to KNOW the Holy spirit and become saved,and then we COULD READ anything we chose,safe and secure in that Holy Presence - yes..?..Indeed,exactly the SAME as the priest who decreed it was herasy - didnt HE do this withthe presence of the Holy spirit too..?..>Works for HIM,hes allowed to at least see for himself once He has this Presence - then why not us..?..The church DICTATES this truth - then tells you basically "if its not bible its herasy" - and see WHO manufactured the bible..?...THEY did - so round they took you full circle,self enclosed authoirty - go to th bible and only bible an THE wrte and decided what was to be iN the bible.... Id be highly supsicious were I you - because see,as said - a man with the Holy spirit is ABLE to DISCERN TRUTH - yet they forbid this right to you...Logically then - either the doctrine is false this Holy spirit is bogus and so they must "tell" you what is truth,guide you along intheir schims - or else then the Holy spirit IS REAL,and you may GUIDE yourself freely with its Presence.... Well the Holy spirit IS REAL I know it from direct undeniable experience - CHRIST SAID IT also - I trust HIM more than I trust my Self even - so the only other reason as to why the church authority would hide and forbid certain things from us,is indeed BECAUSE they do HAVE somethng to hide !! They cant allow you to GAIN the authentic Holy spirit,and THEN go read those other gosples - because under such Holy guidance,you would soon see Divine truth - and also soon see,they HAVE tricked and misled you...SO,they enclose you IN THE BIBLE - teach yo uthat which they want you to believe and forbid any other source form you at first,on pian of severe torture and death - all to hide a "hersay" that the Holy spirit SHOULD reveal all by it Self... Do you begin to see..?...That whole church authority is highly suspect there...Contradictory - you tell me not to trust other sources - but Christ will tell YOU not to ttrust the spiritual authoirty - DAMN the pahrisees He said - and as in my previous post,told them to their faces,their god is not His god,so they MURDERED HIM - and we can be sure,they did know the trith,because as said,HE performed MIRACLES,became renowned for them His hallmark so to speak - THEY on the other hand,could do no such thing,their god could NOT empower them to achieve any such feat - thus they KNEW HE is Divinely LEGITIMATE and their power was not - yet they chose the lesser anyway,for MORTAL power and privalidge at the cost of eternal Divine truth.....To THIS day the religion is a contination of the old - and Christ has already warned me clearly and repeatedly AGAINST that trap....HIS truth sets us free - but that aint found in the bible alone and He has already blatantly told us these pharisees,religous authorities,religous scholars and teachers,ARE misleadng us - its just a continationb of the same deceipt then til now - so WHY then insist on the written word THEY present as the only truth..?... Logic for one should tell you this clearly - the HOLY SPIRIT comes direct form god and GIVES us TRUTH - and yet see the priest - he has to GO TO SCHOOL to be TAUGHT what to say think and do,in order to become a priest at all...And if this Holy spirit is acheived at all in an AUTHENTIC manner,and later reveals something such a h ere,contradictory,that contravenes the church dictate,then they will ex communicate that priest - in the old days they would simply torture and murder him of course to silence him - but modern times their hands are somewhat tied there,so they resort to "stripping him of spiritual status",as if their decree can somehow negate the Holy spirit and the truth that IT revealed...See how it works yet..?..They dont care about Divne truth - they care about mortal power and status.. Completly counterfeit - WHERE is the priests Holy spirit,HIS guidance..?..IT COMES FROM MEN AND ONLY MEN - THEY teach him the truth of EVERYTHING SPIRITUAL - DICTATE it to him - and Christ has already warned you AGAINST them.. Its a case of trust man or trust Christ - things said ABOUT HIm and taught by others in the bible,do not always match the things He is saying Hmself,even in that same book,as clearly presented in the post above...

Hi Folks.. Morning Glory; I should be ASHAMED you say - for what - asking questions..?..Pointing out iNCONSISTANCIES..?..If its hersy thenthe bible IS herasy itself,fo rwhat I said IS found inthe bible,gosple of John - here I will show you it if I may..It begins John 8,first two thinggs to note and remember,then I present the conversatin in question...First though : Take note there - PHARISEES are SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY,teachers and Rabbis - Yeshua just told them clearly that they do NOT KNOW HIM OR HIS FATHER...Let that sink in deep as we follow the rest.. See then immediately,He makes a clear distinction - HE WHO SENT ME - IF He meant a diety that they ALREADY KNEW,such as Yahweh,then He WOULD tell them who this god is - the fact is though,HE does NOT make ANY referance ANYWHERE at any time to THEIR god - ALWAYS HE speaks in this neutral sense,NEW sense,and terms god only and always as FATHER - NEVER a given name or label that the Jews are ALREADY FAMILIAR WITH,never an individual name that they are already familiar with...The fact He uses UNFAMILIAR titles here CONTINUOSLY,is a clear indication that He is speaking about and wishing to emphasise,that He is teachng about a different god entirely..And indeed,Im about to show you He will CLEARLY disavow THEIR god as the conversation follows : Again see clearly the distincton - they did not understand about HIS Father - but see - they are RABBIS,yes..?..Spiritual authority that DO UNDERSTAND THEIR OWN GOD fully and intimately - but Christ tells them they do not understand HIS Father..Always keep it in CONTEXT...He says the ONE who sent me - IF HEmeant their god,then here HE would say Yahweh sent me - or god sent me - again HE EMPHASISES,only HE knows this god and the othes do NOT,hence He sayss that One who sent me,as in the one you DONT know !! If Hemeant THEIR god then He WOULD say "YOUR god sent me" - or HE would say "OUR god sent me" - instead HE emphasises again clear distinction between THEIR god and HIS Father.. Ah see clearly here - SOME jews understood Him,He is speaking about a NEW truth,and as this dawns on them He tells them now folow me and I will reveal more..And there - He has just told them their god has misled them and as yet they do NOT have TRUTH - if they do NOT have truth then they have ERROR - and see then their truth and their error IS the god YAhweh who THE KNOW INTIMATELY....Pure logic tells us He MUST be speaking about a DIFFERENT truth that THEY LACK and THAT HE HAS.. Hold to ME HE said,THEN you will know truth and be free - in other words,He is saying but if you hold to THEM then you have error and remain trapped in ignroance - H is offering NEW TRUTH of a new god - they are offering old truth of their god Yahweh and their "truth" is NOT HIs truth,it is obvious..Yahweh IS their truth their one and only truth - yet Chirst is tellingthem clearly,follow me and learn a NEW truth that sets you free from that..Next : Ok good - THEY claim affiliation to Yahweh - Abrahams god - and see next what Christ says : He agrees they ARE Abrahams descendants - tells them He knows they plot to MURDER HIm - and makes a CLEAR DISTINCTION AGAIN - that HE is speaking a truth from HIS FATHER - and that THEY are doing the same from THEIR father....He COULD NOT BE CLEARER - their god is NOT HIS Father...Look next He says : He tells them very clearly they are plotti to kill Him for revealing this NEW truth that He empahsises COMES FROM GOD...He then calls ABRAHAM A LIAR,saying that ABraham did NO SUCH THING - in other words,Abraham NEVER gave them "truth from god" at all,and He backs that statement up by telling them they are "following THEIR own father" - again the clear EMPHASIS their father as opposed to HIs Father.. Next,the most condemning part of all..Having told them clearly that His Father is NOT their god and that the DO NOT YET KNOW HIs Father (but if they now follow Him He will give them the truth to set them free) - having laid the groundwork and explained the difference n tuths,He is now going to explain their gods nature - a very clear and precise WARNING : See there,He tels them their god is not THE god supreme - you belong to YOUR father He says,and Iam from mine..He says very very clearly their god is the DEVIL,a murderer and a liar 0 indeed as said,the "father of lies2 itself - and again I remind you all - in ourmodern parlance,this phraseis attributted to the devil... Sum it up then - the rabbis quesion Christ about His truth - He says basically, "my truth is NOT your truth - my Father is NOT your god - you ARE of the god of Abraham but Iam NOT,and your god is planning to have you murder me because of this truth - your god is a liar and mirderer,bt if you listen to me i can set you free from all that... This is not herasy - the church have brain washed you into being half asleep and unquestioning..This is the search for legitimate spiritual truth....Whilst we are on this search,such questions and poitns raised MUST BE DDRESSED or else,how do you know you even have truth at all..?... One such crucial point - John - these two conflicting positions - one mnute hes a saint,gods prophet - next hes lost hopeless sinner,writing herasy and under the devils control - WHICH IS IT..?...As I say - it shows EITHER the doctrine of salvation is a fraud and didnt work for him at all,even though he walked side by side with the LIVING Christ - or it shows the church has something they wish to remain hidden and so they forbid certain sources of wisdom from us....Anyone care to coment..?...

Hi Folks... First let me say thanks for the replies..It seems clear to me - you all here,are seeing somethng Im missing - or perhaps Iam seeing somethng you are missing - for it it also very clear,the god of the bible - Old testamant and New - are the SAME being,same Deity - clearly this is so,the modern Christian religion worships the old Hebrew god,Yahweh.Jehovah ans this is th belief YOU ALL share - and THERE,right there,is the heart of my dilemma...I know every response here has been to help me understand that viewpoint - but honestly - I dont thnk there is any help available - I believe a most fundamental error has been made - and that ACTUALLY,the Father that Christ speaks of,is NOT the god of the jews at all - and in fact,His teachng,is aimed to lead the people AWAY from ALL that former tradtition complelty... It is a case where He came,and essentially taught an entirely NEW truth - even said as much plainly - said openly HE was teaching now,SECRETS that no mortal had ever known,and that NO ANGEL had ever known - He then explains about a "boundless invisible spirit that is the RAUSE of everything..Indeed,He relays ALL OF CREATION - fomth is FAther spiriits "first thought" - right through to "mankind walks the Earth"...it soon becomes very clear,the god of the bible,OUR creator,is NOT that SOURCE of cretaion itself..Chrost tells us the ORIGINS of Yahweh/Jehovah and that deity is NOT present at the START of creation - that deity,CHRIST SAYS,is an ANGEL - a created form,a creature just like You and I are... The more I read and REALISE about Chroist,the more I realise He IS speaking about an entirely diffent god - and this is WHY HE then tells us to shun and avoid the organised religon comletly - REPLACED al its OLD traditons with simple NEW TRUTHS - for example - stop temlpe worship He said,no babbling repeates prayers of begging supplication - no rituals - no PUBLIC wrship at all He said,fro ll these thngs are done for MORTAL power and prestige..And the religous authoirty itself..?..The PHARISEES,priestly caste and teachrs of "spiritual truth"..?..HE DESPISED THEM - damn them He said,REPEATEDLY - warnd us they LIED and MISLED us on ON PURPOSE HE said.. I have to keep asking my Self 1 crucial question here - IF their god "sent him" and they are all expecting Him and waitng for Him to come save us - then how come when .He finally gets here,in short order,they MURDER HIM..?.... WHATS that all about...?... Clearyl - He said and did some things then,that go teveryon eup n arms - THREE FACTIONS,and their ALL ENEMIES,lets not forget - yet something about Yehsua has romans and jews plotting togehter to p[ut an end to Him...WHAT THEN, could He possibly have said to upset EVERYONE..?.... Well - He basicaly came and told them as I say here - you have the "wrong god"..Even IN the bible He saysit clearly...Gosple of John I believe - we find the rabbis confront Him,and He tells them very very clealrly tha HIS Father,is NOT their god - they say they follow the god of Abraham and MOSes - and Christ says very implicitly,YES YOU DO,but you DO NOT know MY Fatherr...He then tells them THEIR god is the FATHER OFLIES that is deceving them all into plotting to MYRDER HIm,and HE warns them,this is teir gods nature LIAR and MURDERER formthe start,He says...He evn labesl their god AS "the fther of lies" - andin a modern parlance,this label isa ffixed to the "satan2 character - is it not..?... So,in John gosple then,there is a clear distinctionmade bewteenthe jewish godd whom Christ says is a lying murderer - and a new teachng H eis revealing - somethng they DO NOT KNOW He says,Our Father...We should kepe the CONYEXT here - and realise fully,HE MUST be speakng of a DIFFERENT god altogehter,for He just told them they DO NOT KNOW this FAther - and yet,they DO know their god yahweh intimately,and have ALWAYS known THAT god so - clearly then,when Christ says - yer you know THAT god but you dont know MY FATher - this is becaus ethey are two entirely different things - the god of the hebrew faith,is NOT Our Father at all.... Now - that is just 1 example from the bible itself..Other sources show many many more examples - veyr clear and precise...Christ as I say lays out theentire heircachy to creation - and it turns out YAhweh is just 1 angel amongst some 360 iothers...Indeed,the wider truth is very revealing as laid out intheos eother sources - sources THIS CHURCH the FORBAD to us as "herasy".....When you take a stepo back fromthe religous fervour of it all - it becomes very clear - we HAVE BEEN DUPED - just as Christ warned would happen - EXACTLY as He warned it would happen.. Now,Im expecting already certian types of response here - please rememeber - IM ALL ABOUT TRUTH - this is my only agenda here - to learn and understand my Father..One thing Im definately expecting - is the answer to put aside any source that is not the bible - wel,clearly that would be an eror,logically speaking- because see the very ones who forbid yo uthese other sources,are the very ones doing the deceivng - so the other osurces,are actually CRUCIAL to the truth here...And besides - lets follow ths logically - the bible says it will bring to us truth and Wisdm THROUGH the Holy spirit itself - so then we SHOULD be able to read ANY SOURCE w elike,safe and secure inthe presenc eof the Holy spirit,we will know truth from fiction REGARDLESS,because it is the HOLY GHOST that brings our trith... First point here then - WHY ban and forbid anything..?..Dont the church TRUST the Holy Spirit..?...If they DID trust their own doctrines,then they would leave us FREE to read anythng we like,the Holy spirit wil lead us true.....FActs are though,THEY FORBAD certan sources of info altogehter - and that says quite logically,they HAVE OSMETING TO HIDE and they DARE NOT let you even go look,for YES the Holy Spirit WILL REVEAL TRUTH,except of course tha trut itself is the thng they ned to remain hidden - wrong god - and the Holy spirit wi show that to us inthese other sourrces - hence they effectively OVER RIDE the Holy spirit,TAJE THAT GUIDANCE FROMUS whenthe forbid these other gosples as "herasy"...Its NOT for THEm to decide atall - it is for the INDWELLING HOly spirit to lead us - the fact that they over ride their own doctrine as it suits,should "red flag" their truemotives to our attention here.... Alongside this of course - another spect of confusin and outright hypocrasy...JOHN above - we are told wrote the CANON gospel that bares His name - and htis is "gods prophet and saint" - but do any of you also realise - He wrote another gospel also - known as the SECRET gopsel,and yet THIS one is deemd by the same church authority as HERASY - and now gods prophet has become satans pawn...And all the whil ethey tel us,this HOly Ghost is received by FOLOWING CHRIST - but see clearly,JOHN WA:KED SIDE BY SIDE with my Lord - if anyoe was "saved",then suely it is Him - and yet see just as clearly,according tothe church,this doctrine FAILED JOhn regadless and he becam eunder satns copntrol writing "herasy"....WHICH is truth..?....John WALKED with Chris became worthy - SHOULD have been eternally saved according to church and doctrine - and yet AFTER Christ ascends,John s now deemed "heretic devil spawn".... Its nto a case where He wrote herasy first,then becam esaved after He met Christ..No no no...CLEARLY,the 2heretical gople" is written AFTER Christ has been crucified,for it is an account of a DIRECT SPIRITUAL revealation formthe RISEN Christ - at this point then,John has been faithfl disciple,knows Christs truth and CRUCIALLY,has RECEIVED the Holy spirit FRO Christ - and yet,according to church authoirty,His gosple is STIL HERASY....See the contradictions are RIFE !!! Either the doctrine as presented in the bible is a fraud - or Johns Secret gospel is actually truth that the church authority wanted hidden and destroyed - they cant both be true - the doctrine of salvation did poor John no good what so ever - even after being Chrusts intimate companion,he still ends up becming stans puppet,SO WE ARE TOLD.... But no - when we add it ALL UP - the other alternative seems much much more plausable - the CHURCH AUTHORITY,its teachng is the fraud - Chist said so openly - they had the wrong,lesser deity,and they knew it,yet clung to hat god,did its bidding,and murdered Christ just as He warned them would happen...I can show you many many places where Christ is most definately distancing Hmself,disavowing that hebrew god,and clearly speaking of soemthng new,that these people He teaches are whollyUNFAIMILIAR with...As I say,keep it iin context of time and culture - at that time,and still to this day,the Hebrews have an INTIMATE realtionship with THEIR god an dknow THAT deity fully,so when Christ tells them this is all new,we can be sure it has NOTHING to do with that old god at all - SECRETS HE said that NONE had ever known,not even the Angels above.. He wanted to lead them right away from all those previosu erros - emphtically so - this is indeed what He meant when He told us we need to be prepared to HATE the parents here - not hate the person,buthte ways and tradtions - put it all aside He said - HATEit - fo rit is all based onthe fundamental error - wrong god,lesser god - NOt the FAther He said - put ALL that asde now,follow ME HE said....He then proved HIs legitimate Divne authoirty - by perforimnf MIRACLES that none other had EVER matched - no priest of Yaweh had EVER given life back to the dead as Our Lod did and hti sis vecasue ther god is not the TRUE Divine..Thus Chirst was a direct threat to them their power and status,and so they clung to their lesser god,did its will and murdered Him as we al know....In my search fo rthruth here,I have actally uncovered a great many things - which wwhne looked at fresh and honestly,without the religious bias,they begin to make much more logical sense - the bible is ful of such confusion - an dit i sal lbecause we hav the foundation wrong,what is built on top is bound ot be an error also....It comes down to whethter we trust CHRIST - or the word f man - for sadly,what the bible says,is NOT what Christ had to say Himself...

Hi Folks.. Seems I inadvertantly touched on something that actually goes very deep then.. I thought it was just an observation of mine - and I would clarify,I dont mean anyhting nefarious or negative - but well,Im truly struggling with this whole bible thing - and I come here to perhaps find some peace and understanding..IM not allowed yet to start a thread - so I cant explain properly yet - but honestly,my problem it seems,goes very deep indeed,and this whole thread has only served to highlight it for me.. Im struggling with the bible - but Im not struggling with Christ - He is my mate,truly,a very personal relationship already - but it doesnt seem to pan out the way it has for most here -and Im having a great deal of confusion with some thngs others are taking for granted...I guess I can only soldier on,and hope that one of you has some clarity for me perhaps... Kwikphilly ; OK - so I have to ask - what of all the countless milions that lived here BEFORE YEshua took His mortal form..?...HOW did ANYONE ever come to the Father,is Christ is the ONLY way,and HIS DEATH is th eonly guarantee - this means before Him,all of mankind was lost and doomed.... And what of al the other countless other faiths,religons and traditons..?..If god created us,then surely HE created us ALL - yet according to this,any who were born BEFORE Christ,stood absolutely no chance whatsoever of attaining "salvation" - impossible,for we are told that His death and His BLOOD are the means of redemption...Those poor Souls who came before Him,were doomed form the start,and god set it up that way..?..... No - I doubt He did that - there must be something we are missing,or something we are getting wrong,regarding this issue of salvation..God wouldnt condemn whole generations of mankind,out of hand,without hope at all until Yeshua is born... Something comes to mind here - worthy - WHO gets to judge..?....The church/bible tells us that al we need to do is believe in Christ,and that His sacrifice saves us...Well - simply - that doesnt even work - and the bible proves it...Saint John - walked with Christ side by side,learned from Him directlty - received the Holy Ghost form Him directly - if anyone was saved,then it should be John....But look what hapens - John writes MANY GOSPELS - two are ordained and he is "gods prophet" - but others are rejected as HERASY - and now saint john who SHOULD be saved,is deemed still to be under "satans influence",and spouting herasy that the church will then ban and forbid us... One minute he is a saint,gods prophet - next he is satans mouthpiece spreading lies and herasy - and all the while he is Yeshuas sworn companion,intimate confidante and trusted Disciple..IF he is saved in this manner by accepting Chirst,then how can he possibly ever write herasy..?.....There is far more going on here than meets the eye - far more going on,than the bible alone can explain.. Can you all begin to see my core problems here..?...Can anyone explain this John issue - this salvation issue..?..Clearly its not what we are taught - John stil came under "satans influence",despite that close intimate relationship with our Lord..... Butero; Yes,i can see that too - and I guess it was what prompted my first observation here - and the second observation above - such a belief did John no good at all..- he still became a heretic according to the church founders...I think we should closely examine such things,fo rthey show clearly,this doctrine of "salvation",is at best little understood,and at worse,somhting entirely different to that which we think it is.. George; Hmm...Didnt Yeshua though,actually say that we would do ALL that He had done,and yet MORE besides..?..And elsewhere - none bible - gospel of Thomas to be precise - He tells us very clearly,we are to BECOME Him,and it is THIS process that saves us - NOT His "death" and resurrection alone,but the SELF UNDERSTANDING that it brings to us - we are not saved by His death alone,nor by a simple prayer or ritual - we must UNDERSTAND who and what we are... Anythingispossible; Yes I share these sentiments exactly (almost) - but see how they directly opose other Christian viewpoints,as expressed in this very thread - such things are also at the heart of my confusion I fear - its like I speak to one Christian,get one answer - speak to the next,get another,often contrary,and on and on the confusion goes.. George; Hmm...This church - is a continuation of the old jewish religion - and to be honest here,this is the real core issue for all of my confusion - the god of the jews - yahweh - is NOT the Father that Christ speaks of..He must be speaking about something entirely different...In other gosples,written by the disciples directly,yet banned by this church,Christ explains in great detail,that His Father,is NOT the god of the jews..I fully believe,we have been misled here - and Christ even warned us over 2000 years ago,this would happen..This issue of "taking the church away" - its not a "good thing" for Christians - or I should say,its not a good thing for the christian religion - its going to be taken away I believe,because it is a wholly false teaching and not at all what Christ intended.. In those othr gosples,written by the disciples,yet banned by the church - it tells a much different version of events - we see Chirst is directly opposed to the "pharisees",religious authoirty, whom He said quite blatantly and quite scathilgnly,were deceiving us on purpose - He said they knew the truth,yet with held it form us,and decieved us intentionally....A good deal of His teacing is actually to turn us away from all that old traditon - quit all the babbling prayers,temple rituals He said - seek the Father alone in secret solitary silence ,not out in a temple or church He said,not found by the words of man He said,but discovered as the INDWELLING living Presence... To assume then,He would turn us away from one religion,only to replace it with something nearly identical,is a base and grave error on our part I think...when we look OBJECTIVELY and without the religous blinkers or the wishful thinking - we find Him repeatedly telling us to shun and avoid all the organised traditon - He even termed it very strongly indeed - told us we should HATE our parents - I doubt He means physical hate like an enemy - but for sure,He means put aside THEIR beliefs,their customs and ways - for He told us clearly and repeatedly two things - first He said,NOBODY had EVER encountered HIS Father and nobody therefore knew of His Father before Him....This means that He CAN NOT be speaking about Yahweh or the jewish tradition,because obviously that was all fully well known BEFORE HE came,and yet he is teling us clearly NOBODY knows His truth...Even in the bible - gosple of John I believe - the rabbis question Him,saying they are of the god of Abraham - and Yesua replies very clearly,YES,you are of THAT god,but you do NOT know MY Father - He makes such a clear distinction between this jewish god and His Father,many times,many places - it becomes clear,He is speaking about two entirely different entities.... The second thing He repeats,is His scathing comments about the established religion - the falseness of its traditons,rituals,prayers - ALL of it - He repeatedly RE INTERPRETS the old ways - such as the beatitudes - you have heard it said............now I come and tell you this........as He reinterprets the old and brings forth His NEW teaching.. So,when we add it all up - He came and said to the jews ( I paraphrase of course) - Iam the lIVING god whom you have never encoutnered or even conceived of my existance...The god you know is a lesser diety,a creature (Christ said yahweh was an Angel,not a god),and is not the SOURCE of creation itself..Iam that source..Forget all the things you thought was truth,put it all aside and start again - i will teach you of the true Divine".. If we were to take into account everything ,all the available sources of informaton we have,then that passage above,WOULD sum it up nicely...I always wondered - if the god Yahweh,sent Christ to the jews,then WHY did they murder Him..?...I mean they are all EXPECTING HIm to appear - and when He does they reject Him - didnt Yahweh tell his priests what was happening..?...Who He was..?.. OF COURSE THEY KNEW - because Christ did miracles that none of yahwehs entourrage could match or even come close to attaining - so they knew for sure He IS Divine - so WHY did they kill Him..?... The only answer is because He said somehting vey threatening to them or their god - WAS a direct threat to both them and their god - and so they plotted to murder Him,under their gods influence,exactly and precisely as Yeshua laid out in John above,that conversation with the rabbis who question Him...He told them - "YOU are of the god of Abraham,and still you do NOT know my Father" - He then went on to say that indeed,the jewish god was a - "liar and murderer" indeed named this god precisely AS the "father of lies",warned the rabbis to their faces that their god was tricking and deceiving them into murdering Christ... INteresting - Yeshua has just told the jews their god is a liar,murderer,tricking and ecieving them all - FATHER OF LIES - isnt that a title assigned to the "devil" satan character..?...Christ then,has just told thejews that actually their own god is the one they should fear !! See how dangerous all this can get..?... STILL,they went ahead and murdered Him anyway.. WHY would He say any of that,if He was from THEIR god..?... Such things seem to get overlooked in the christian tradition - but honestly,if we wish to know Christ,we need to look honeastly at such things, answer these basic issues first - and this would be the heart of my own confusion here - it seems very very obvious - the god of the jews is NOT Our Father,supreme god of creation,that Yeshua taught us of..CANNOT BE - for me it comes down to either,trust Christ directly and fully,or trust the teaching of a man,priest,vicar,pope...Christ has already warned us that these people are purposefully misleading us - and this modern religion is merealy a continuation of that old one... I ABSOLUTELY trust in Christ - but as you can see,Iam having a great deal of trouble,trusting the words of men..A lot of the traditional doctrine just doesnt make sense - just doesn not work - as we see with Johns supposed salvation,one minute hes a saint,but still writng "herasy" under evil influence - its wholly contradictory all the way through...Believe in Christ to be saved,that is done deal,nothing more to add just bow down folow the church and trust them to lead us true,is THEIR position - yet Christ said directly,avoid the temple,the church and the priest,cultivate instead an INNER commnunion,BECOME me He said and do even more.. Im REALLY hoping someone here can help explain some of these issues...Sorry it just came out that way,like a rant - its all just soo AAAahhhhhhhhhhh !!!! Like it is so so vitally important - I MUST understand - a most basic error has been made - either by me or by those who taught me in ignorance - and the confuision here threatens to send me crazy...Without Christ and my Father,life is pretty irrelevant - to find His truth is the very purpose of our existance here..Id like to write a thread perhaps,adress point by point,many many discrepancies - but for now,these things come to mind - makes me question greatly - just WHO is truly worthy- and just WHAT are we worthy of..????

Hi Folks.. Thank you all for the warm welcomes Thank you for the clarification...Do you see my point though..?..To my mind,naming it "worthy news" - would be far more appropriate - for indeed,it IS worthy news and always wil be so...But,to name it "worthy christians",shifts the emphasis I feel - making it less about the "news" and its content and more abou the status of the people who profess it.. Its one thing to say - "look here,this news is good and worthy" - but it is entirely different thing to say "look at US,for WE are good and worthy"... Does anyone see this..?..Its like we somehow claim a title that was not offered to us yet..

Hi Folks.. Hmm..You know - the title here "worthy christian" - I mean - well,how do I say this tactfully - well,its just plain wrong,isnt it..?...To call us "worthy",as if WE are the judge of sch things..?...Seems a bit - pompous - arrogant - divisive even - as if we say "we are worthy but you are not"...Can anyone else see that..?..