simplejeff

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Here are some points:  in verse 3b the man of sin IS REVEALED in Paul's argument.

Verses 6-8 tell us he cannot be revealed until the force restraining him is "taken out of the way.  Since HE IS revealed in 3b, then in 3a,  the one restraining must be "taken out of the way." This is just logic. He cannot be revealed until the restraining force is removed.

The only possible conclusion then is that some how hidden in the word apostasia is the force restraining being take out of the way.  think about it. Can sin restrain sin? Can a falling away restrain sin. Can back-slidden people restrain sin or the man of sin? 

 

It can only be one of two things in my mind: either before the "falling away" the Holy spirit was using those believers to restrain - OR before the rapture God was using believers to restrain the man of sin.  since the THEME of the passage is the gathering, it makes more sense to be that Paul's intended meaning is the rapture of the church removes the believers in whom the Holy Spirit was using to restrain. Once the rapture takes the church out of the way, the man of sin will then be revealed.

What is most sad, perhaps, is that the church is helping the enemy today, and not restraining him.

This includes the deceptive teachings about the things quoted above/ studied as if to find the truth, but the truth hidden in plain sight,  is overcome by the traditions of men. (mostly roman catholic additions to and instead of the truth in Yahuweh's Word.

It is so rare to find the truth ,  that most people relax and accept what others accept and what others teach and preach,  whether because it sounds good, tickles the ears,  or because they really don't know better,  and it 'fits' in with other false ideas (also not known to be false) being widely accepted.

To begin to get an idea of the truth,  dwell no this in prayer and more prayer with the Father and with Jesus:

The enemy is much more prominent around the world and in churches today than ever before.   This has been evident , as some other posters have noted in other threads this last week,   in the last few decades --- i.e. in our lifetimes.   The enemy is as it were being 'birthed' more and more in the world,  and soon will be fully 'birthed' as the wickednesses and evil are filled up overflowing as written in Yahuweh's Word: Scripture.

The believers trusting and relying on the Father,  will not be abandoned at any time by Yahushua Messiah, the Shepherd,  no,  not at any time.   Not even in being martyred, as many have been martyred in the last ten years,  and many more this year and in the years to come.   This is besides the arrests,  tortures, beatings, and other bad treatment Ekklesia receive from men. 

48 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

I understand that this doctrine that all who are born again are saints is so ingrained in the protestant churches, like I said I was Born a Baptist so I heard it all my life in church. But as you study scripture, you begin to realize the saints are different, and were addressed throughout the New testament as a distinct group apart from the Brethren as a whole. Take the time to do the search. You will find some verses that support what you are saying, but not all of them. We all run the race, but not all finish it in time. The thief on the cross was Born again, but he was not a saint. 

Perhaps the source of your learning ("who" said so?)  would help understand why these errors(OR differences?) are mixed in with some truth ?    Does some particular doctrine say such things as you posted here,  OR are you all alone in these ideas ?

43 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Look, I am not here to convince you, you need to be Berreans and do your own research. I am Just here to share what I have found.

I don't know if that is good to do or not(for you to share).  From what you posted,  what you "found" is wrong,  in error, and not correct by a LONG WAY.

It perhaps is good if you learn the truth,  and correct the errors in what you "found".

40 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Not sure what you mean by your last line, Ephesians is addressed to the saints AND the faithful in Christ Jesus. The Saints are different, Set apart from the rest. all of the verses I posted show this if you take the time and read themcarefully.

Sorry, no,  you were mis-informed and are mistaken.   Whatever.   See from the Greek, Expanded New Testament:

Ephesians 1:1 ..... "to the saints, the ones who are [in Ephesus], namely, believing ones in Christ Jesus."

50 minutes ago, thomas t said:

I won't play this game.

If you have this verse, post it, if you don't, don't pretend you would. 

3 hours ago, simplejeff said:

The forum is not restricted to believing posters, 

yes it is Jeff, as I said, the moment you say you're an atheist, you're out. 

3 hours ago, simplejeff said:

The "believing posters who know how to respond without resorting to personal attacks ..."  doesn't affect most of the forum

personal attacks are the worst, in my opinion. Jesus was crystal clear we shouldn't do that. 

Working backwards (from bottom quote to the top)

So ?  It still does not affect most of the forum.

No it isn't  - if you say you're a Christian, you're in.  Even if you're not.  Or even if you're one of those called 'Christian' by designation,  but not by Yahuweh.

You've been playing a game,  I don't know what to call it. It's dangerous, and it doesn't look good.(from your posts since you joined)

I don't pretend.

The verse is actually not very rare to know - I just did not know if someone else already posted it....

"REVELATION 9:20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, [a]did not repent even then of the works of their hands, so as to cease worshiping and paying homage to the demons and the idols of gold and of silver and of bronze and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk; 21 and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries (drugs, intoxications) nor of their [sexual] immorality nor of their thefts.

Footnotes:

Revelation 9:20 The wickedness of idolatry is so deep and deceptive that idolaters refuse to repent in spite of the overwhelming evidence of God’s displeasure with them (Ps 115:8; 135:18)."

===============

Other similar related:

 Jeremiah 44:15-17 International Standard Version (ISV)
The Refugees Refuse to Repent

15 Then all the men who knew that their wives were offering sacrifices to other gods and all the women who were standing by—a large group, including all the people who were living in the land of Egypt in Pathros—answered Jeremiah: 16 “As for the message that you reported to us in the name of the Lord, we won’t listen to you! 17 Rather, we will keep doing everything that we said we would[a] by offering sacrifices to the Queen of Heaven and by pouring out liquid offerings to her just as we, our ancestors, our kings, and our leaders did in the cities of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem. Then we had plenty of bread, things went well for us, and we didn’t experience disaster.

================

Jeremiah 8:5 - Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Jeremiah 8%3A5
“Why then has this people of Jerusalem Turned away with a perpetual turning away [from Me]? They hold tightly to deceit (idolatry); They refuse to repent and ...

That must be checked, tried, tested, to see, yes.   Prove all things....

Yet even if there is a mistake there,   that does not make valid other mistakes by others.

5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Good post. I agree, if anyone is to see heaven, they must be born again.  Well, not even that is true. I had a good friend that was a heathen. He was a mountain man, probably killed a thousand elk if he killed one. His wife was a long time believe and had prayed for him for many years. He had a heart attack and flat-lined for around ten minutes in the Spokane Hospital. During that ten minutes God took his spirit and showed him the Holy City from above. God told him: I am allowing you to SEE IT because of your wife's prayers - but until you change, you will never get here."

God took him back to his body and the machine started beeping again, and the doctor and nurses rushed in. they had already pulled the sheet over his head. He left the hospital and was told to make his peace with God, for only about 1/3 of his heart was working. Still, it took him I think two or three weeks before he finally gave up his will and got born again. So he did get to see it from a distance!

Pretty good testimony  I think,  but he saw a vision,  so that could make or be the difference.   Or go back perhaps to what is actually written that you are referring to ?      Also, as well, I think,  "only the pure in heart" will see heaven ?

27 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

No, It comes right out of Eph 1:1.  

3 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

No I was raised a Baptist. Like before, I am just going by what the word of God says. read the verses I posted above and you will see the difference.

The Scripture is TRUE,  no change there, in HARMONY PERFECTLY WITH ALL SCRIPTURE.

You even quoted Ephesians.

But you don't agree with all SCRITURE, not even with Ephesians that you quoted.

But your "No,"  as if it meant something,  means nothing pertaining to the topic.

9 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

When the Holy Spirit raced through the Catholic churches in the '60's, some will filled with the Holy Spirit. It goes without saying, He is only going to fill TRUE Christians! I agree with you here.

I have puzzled over this many times. I have talked with born again Catholics again and again. It seems, their biggest problem is, they don't know they are lost and NEED to be "born again."

Jesus told people HE TALKED TO IN PERSON:     You must be born again.  (joining a church doesn't count nor give life let alone eternal life ! )

Today,  He continues speaking without change, to Lutherans, Catholics, Baptists, Independents, in the church first, because JUDGMENT BEGINS in the HOUSE OF GOD,   and also outside the church to people with no religion at all - "YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN"  ......  "TURN TO THE CREATOR, YAHUWEH (GOD ALMIGHTY),  because HIS KINGDOM IS NOW AT HAND!   CLOSE BY !   HERE< AT THE DOOR> !   "  There's no safety, no time to wait - TODAY IF YOU HEAR THE ECHO OF HIS VOICE,

do not rebel as they did in the wilderness and perished !   Do not rebel IF you hear His Voice ..... obey Him ! TODAY!

If you do not hear His Voice,  DILIGENTLY SEEK HIM,  while HE MIGHT BE FOUND ....... and KEEP ON SEEKING HIM every day, every night, all the time !

7 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Do You really think someone can become a saint overnight? From what I can tell it is a life long process.

As soon as they are born again by the Will of the Father in heaven!   NOT by man's will, nor of the flesh, nor by blood,   but as written in SCRIPTURE (TRUTH). 

That lifelong process idea usually , maybe not always depending on origin and meaning,  but usually comes from the apostate believers/ apostate church/ false church/ counterfeit church i.e. bad teaching.

dukdukto search j macarthur to see what false teachings he preached the last 30 years or so (however many)....

Reported (with examples /his own words)  to be teaching "another Gospel" or a "different Jesus".....  thus the need to be alert and test everything!  even if it "seems good" at first,  it may be drawing people in by deception !

1 TIMOTHY 2:5 KJV "For [there is] one God, and one mediator ...

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Timothy-2-5/

1 hour ago, Flowersun said:

The Holy Spirit is my guide,not man.

i recieved the biggest measure of faith over 27yrs ago....the God that dwells in my soul,is a God of Love...my calling has been to spread the word...help,care,and serve others...that is what I do....with no "doubt" what so ever...praise my Father in Heaven!.

If someone is born again, set apart by the Father,  then their life should be in line with the Father's Word, and they are seeking His Kingdom in line with His Word, as Jesus often says.    If the life is not in line with all the Scripture,  but contradicts Yahuweh's Word , Plan and Purpose,

then it is false ,  regardless of how long it has been lived.

Desiring money,  abnormal or out-of-marriage sex, or worldly power, or accumulating and trusting this world's goods,  are the most common indicators someone is not in Christ.

1 hour ago, Nadjeschda said:

God had free will but to create our own free will he chose to give up some of it.

Yahuweh DOES WHATEVER HE PLEASES.      This never changes, never changed, never will change.

Human speculation or logic or reasoning has no place in His Kingdom.

ALWAYS live and speak and do according to HIS WORD !

1 hour ago, Nadjeschda said:

Suffering is a part of soul growth and hence a necessary evil.

As written through Hebrews, and all Scripture,  suffering for followers of Jesus is expected,  and is used by Yahuweh to train us,  to wean us away from thinking the way men think , to get us to think like Yahuweh(God) thinks --- it IS HIS BLESSING US !   (not a necessary evil ) .....  REJOICE JESUS SAYS !   Whenever men persecute you and revile you and arrest and torture and kill you !   REJOICES because they DID THE SAME to JESUS and to the PROPHETS before us....   We have a great reward in heaven so REJOICE, YES REJOICE !

1 hour ago, Nadjeschda said:

If god would start to work miracles whenever something bad happens

DWELLING , LIVING DAILY ,  in union with Yahushua(Jesus) and with the Father TODAY is a miracle every day,

and many miracles every day are recognized !  (regardless whenever something bad happens, or good ! )

1 hour ago, Nadjeschda said:

If god would start to work miracles whenever something bad happens that would already take the emotion out of concepts like death. Death would be only a word than!!!

Yahuweh the Creator (God, the Father Sovereign in Heaven)

took away all fear of death and crucifies all the emotions and desires of the flesh when a person

is immersed in Jesus' Name and is Born Again by the Will of the Father in Heaven. 

Death has no sting.   No power over the new creation, NOTHING to fear,  for a believer abiding in Jesus today. 

In fact,   it is no longer a word for believers!   Since Jesus' Life on earth,  SLEEP is used INSTEAD of death (see in the NEW TESTAMENT.

1 hour ago, Jonathan Dane said:

I can't respond to a bald assertion other than to say that you are incorrect. I would be willing to bet that my observation (or judgement, if you will) of "T" was done with more caution, prayer, introspection and fear of the Lord than was your judgement of me.

Since I did not judge you,  that doesn't make sense here.  If you bet it would be lost on all counts.

Your conclusion is obviously wrong, and is continually contrary to God's Word according to the book and posts,  so whatever method(s), evidence(s), and reason(s) you used led you to a total error.  

1 hour ago, LadyKay said:

How can to pass a Bill that order people to love? Interesting.

The highest authority in existence made it law to obey. 

(for everyone and anyone who wants to be saved from corruption and destruction, to have eternal life)

48 minutes ago, Jonathan Dane said:

Yes. Although I would not describe it as a suspicion.

Without any doubt at all,   whatever it is, and all the so-called 'proof'/evidence you thought you could figure it out from,  is totally in error.....  this is known because of more certain words published decades ago (before T) ,  clearly and cleanly with all Scripture showing it could not and would not be from the usa.

i.e. if someone has done due diligence,  with God's Revelation Knowledge of Scripture,  and historically just the last twenty years,   they would know your evidence and assumptions and  "suspicion" is not even feasibly true.....

The sources and the premises of the book were so much in error,  no truth could come from it.

9 minutes ago, Flowersun said:

For me,I just know in my heart,when the Lord wants me to do something..

Why would it start an argument,Filip?

God,I believe places tasks on my heart to do....do you feel doubt?

A lot of people "know in the heart" that they are doing what their 'god' wants them to do,  even when they are killing others they think they are doing 'god' a favor !  

So test everything,   by God's Word,   and be certain everything is in line with His Word,  not just "in my heart".

The arguments on all the various websites/forums/ chatrooms are often because the heart is so deceitful and vain.

26 minutes ago, thomas t said:

Hi Jeff,

the moment an atheist comes out as an atheist... they are out from the visible area. So you effectively can't have a debate between atheists and believers in the main sections. Atheists in this board have to either hide their atheism or go underground to find a place where they can post something that a few people may read outside the limelight.

2 hours ago, simplejeff said:

It's not safe for the weak in faith or for seekers or for little children,

yeah, we had that. If there would be more believing posters who know how to respond without resorting to personal attacks...

The forum is not restricted to believing posters,  nor to posting only the truth (for believers)(they can post almost anything too),  so the forum has many more unfaithful, than faithful, naturally.  Thus the posts are not leading to Salvation in Christ Jesus for the readers, visitors or members.   The "believing posters who know how to respond without resorting to personal attacks ..."  doesn't affect most of the forum because most posters will resort to subterfuge,  sneaky attacks,  outright false teachings and false doctrines ,  and so forth without restriction -  thus it cannot be made "safe" for the weak in faith or for seekers or for little children... (most all the internet is not and cannot or will not ever be "safe"....

24 minutes ago, thomas t said:

If you cite the verse that says "Unbelievers love their sin and don't want to change!" everything is fine.

If this verse is still not revealed in this thread, and if it is still unknown to you,   just ask again,  or look in the Apocalypse for it.

3 hours ago, PinkBelt said:

The 50's only had lynchings, segregation, McCarthyism, high domestic violence and hatred. Child pornography was legal until the 70's. I fail to see how you think that era was any more moral than any other.

Appropriate for the title of this thread too.   IN the 50's ,  the cures known and proven were made illegal,  and the use of toxins increased substantially,  causing autism(yes, they knew the cause back then) and sids and diabetes and seizures and so forth , without admitting it usually. (and spending billions of dollars to cover it up) ....

15 hours ago, Debp said:

 In those years one could go into any church with the sense of the pastor being a holy man of God, that could counsel and offer help.

Hardly.  Unrighteousness and wickednesses were very common in church leaders , since around 300 a.d. through today.  Sometimes it makes the news.   Usually it is covered up.

Perhaps, in those years,  one "would think" they could go into any church....  thus.....

but finding a holy man of God in any century has been rare, as they are "few".

Jesus says "There are many false religious teachers"  ... and "beware the teachings of the religious teachers" and

"test everything" BEFORE accepting it or believing it. (like the Bereans)