post

this whole terminology of "OSAS" is a false description of the preservation of the saints. it's predicated on a fundamentally flawed view of 'salvation' that's nothing more than a verbal assent to any number of non-Biblical, feel-good terms of 'christianese' like "give your heart to Jesus" or "invite Jesus into your life" after an altar-call, and includes no actual life-changing redemption. it demonstrates ignorance to speak as though a person who has truly been bought by Christ's blood according to the Father's predestined will for them can in fact 'go on living in sin for their whole lives' and somehow overturn the word that the same God who said "let there be light" spoke to them when He called them by name and declared them sanctified and holy unto Himself. this same God whose verbal command brought the entire cosmos into existence, will His word fail to achieve it's purpose? if He said "be clean" to us and "drink, and thirst no more" what makes you think that it is not inevitable that we will be completely sanctified, if He has already declared all those who are being made holy sanctified once and for all by one perfect sacrifice? again, that displays ignorance of what salvation actually is. the term "once saved, always saved" is built on a false narrative of the salvific process, as though 'ticking a box' is equal to being "once saved." using this phrase the way it is so commonly used & subsequently criticized displays a fundamental lack of comprehension about the redemption promised and received by the Lord's sheep. we are slaves to righteousness. slaves don't have "choices" - they have Masters whose will entirely outweighs their own. slaves don't have "deciding votes." they have no vote whatsoever. they don't get to get up one morning and decide, 'i will no longer be a slave today' or 'i think i will have a different master now.' slaves are property that may be at times unruly, but neither annul nor establish ownership by their own volition or actions. & salvation? it is not by the volition or exertion of man. it is by God's mercy. Paul is not describing a 'choice' we make about who we will become slaves to; he is telling us that we used to be slaves to sin, but we have a new Master -- praise God!! -- sin will no longer have dominion over us. because we do not belong to it but we belong to the Father, who does not throw away those things that He purchased with the very blood of His only begotten Son! no!! He redeems them! amen and amen and AMEN!

inasmuch as i am bizarre in my human ways of thinking, and the human nature in me thinks it thinks straight, yes, for sure. i am bizarre, and i have often found that i *think* i think flawlessly and then find out later that i was quite far from it. but i find in myself a new nature: a life that is not my own, and a mind that is not my own, but is Christ - and this mind recognizes the futility of the human ways of thinking and the weirdness of it all; the irony and the weaknesses and the fallacies; the vanity and non-sequiturs. do i include myself in those who consider 'human free will' to be an axiomatic requirement of any sound theology? no. i really don't see it in the scripture. what i see is very clearly the sovereignty of God and His divine election and predestination - things that are mentioned verbatim in the Book in many places, many times. and while i see things that by implication and interpretation indicate free agency, the phrase "free will" is not found in the scripture at all as far as i know, and i by no means look at the human condition & the relationship between God and man and think that no understanding of such things can possibly be correct if it does not include man's ability to decide for himself whether God should be allowed to convert him or not, or man's ultimate ability to overthrow God's sovereign plan for a man. if you would force me to make a statement anything like that, i would say that no theology in which God is not ultimately sovereign, even to the exclusion of any will or effort of mankind, can be true. God is God, and man is man. if man trumps God, then God is no longer God; we do not overturn His will, and i reject the sentimental notion ((also not found in scripture - though universally prevalent in the mind of this age & world)) that 'love is impossible' if a being doesn't have a free choice to hate instead. if anyone has free will, God does -- and His free will far outweighs the free will of any other creature. . . what i think is far more likely is that our simple, futile human thinking does not comprehend 'free will / predestination' hardly at all, though in our vanity we often claim to. perhaps it is as light shows properties of a particle & a wave, depending on how you set up the experiment, whatever the truth of this is can show properties that are 'agency-like' or 'predetermined-like' depending on how you try to measure them. & think that man's vanity also makes 'free will' far more appealing than any perceived absence of it, because if we can point at ourselves as having been 'smart enough' to 'choose God' then we can pat ourselves on the back and give ourselves glory: we can boast of it. but if it is instead God who chooses us ((as the scriptures actually say)) then what can we boast of? only one thing: that He has revealed to us some of Himself, and that we have known His mercy. nothing more. . . & of boasting, what does the scripture say? "it is excluded." maybe a better litmus test for right theology is if it is an understanding by which we can be made grateful to God, or if it is an understanding by which God ought to be grateful to us. "boasting is excluded" -- so if my comprehension of how God & man relate to each other allows me to boast, it is probably flawed. does that sit well with you?

"denial" and "avoidance behavior" and "cognitive dissonance" are not cardiovascular issues. nor is forgetfulness, lack of understanding, or stubbornness. ((nor "obsession")) if i'm "obsessed" with the truth, i count it as a mark of good character, not a blight. that's certainly not something that came from my natural man!

look at the definition again. it does not mention "spirit" kardia: heart Original Word: καρδία, ας, ἡPart of Speech: Noun, FeminineTransliteration: kardiaPhonetic Spelling: (kar-dee'-ah)Short Definition: the heart, inner life, intentionDefinition: lit: the heart; mind, character, inner self, will, intention, center.

why haven't you answered my questions yet? how can you say "i have no flaw in my mind" at the same time you say "my mind is not flawless" ? if the accusation of "unhealthy obsession" is not a comment on mental health, what kind of health is it a comment on ? thanks.

For out of the heart come evil thoughts (Matthew 15:19)

did everyone catch that? it's rather important not to miss, and will keep you from being able to comprehend much, if you don't understand this -- so let me re-iterate: [Heart (2588 / kardía) is mentioned over 800 times in Scripture, but never referring to the literal physical pump that drives the blood. That is, "heart" is only used figuratively (both in the OT and NT.)] it is not the 'heart' that has evil desires and wicked thoughts & intentions. these are things that happen in your mind. in the scripture, 'heart' is always a figurative word. you confess you have a "heart issue" ? brothers & sisters, that is a mental issue. according to scripture.

you speak this way because you lack understanding. here, let me help you: Strong's Concordance kardia: heart Original Word: καρδία, ας, ἡPart of Speech: Noun, FeminineTransliteration: kardiaPhonetic Spelling: (kar-dee'-ah)Short Definition: the heart, inner life, intentionDefinition: lit: the heart; mind, character, inner self, will, intention, center. HELPS Word-studies 2588 kardía – heart; "the affective center of our being" and the capacity of moral preference (volitional desire, choice; see P. Hughs, 2 Cor, 354); "desire-producer that makes us tick" (G. Archer), i.e our "desire-decisions" that establish who we really are. [Heart (2588 /kardía) is mentioned over 800 times in Scripture, but never referring to the literal physical pump that drives the blood. That is, "heart" is only used figuratively (both in the OT and NT.)]

If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. in these you too once walked, when you were living in them. But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. (Colossians 3:1-11)

. . that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. Only let us hold true to what we have attained. (Philippians 3:10-16)

AMEN!! -- "let this mind be in you" -- presupposing that this mind is not already in you but comes from outside the nature that you were born with. i.e. -- be transformed by the renewing of your mind. and what mind is the apostle writing that we should make effort to exhibit and grasp hold of, exchanging our existing natural mind for ? humility. though Christ existed in the form of God, He made Himself of no reputation. He did not exalt Himself, but humbled Himself, and was then exalted. He spoke nothing of Himself, but spoke what the Father gave Him to speak. the scripture says, be of one mind - and that mind is not empty pride - but it is humility. it is not the man who goes about saying "thank God that i am not like other men, but that i am perfect in my ways and my thoughts, and have no flaws" who is justified. it is the man who confesses his flaws and his inadequacies, and who looks to God for mercy, who is justified. be of one mind: presupposing that those reading this word are not of one mind already. be of one mind: of humility. be of one mind: of meekness. be of one mind: of confessing your need for Christ. be unified: in giving all glory to Christ Jesus, and reserving none for yourselves. be unified: in being daily transformed by the continual renewal of your minds. He has not given us a spirit of fear, nor a spirit of vanity, nor of double-mindedness. He has given us a spirit of adoption - not natural birth - a spirit of strong mind. and this Spirit is not our spirit; this strong mind is not our mind -- our spirit has need of Him. our mind has need of Him. His strength is made perfect in our weakness. this strength is not our own. this strong mind is not our own. this love is not our own. this power is not our own. all those things are gifts -- all those things, if they are found in us, are not us: they are Immanuel, God with us. what is ours? this weakness is ours - this weakness of mind, this weakness of flesh - this terrible weakness; this wonderful grace!! His strength is made perfect in our weakness. His Spirit; of strong mind; of love; of power. therefore, let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ: humility. honesty. not one of us has no need for Him: if we say that, the truth is not in us, and we make Him out to be a liar. every one of us has physical issues, and heart issues, and every one of us has mental issues. that is why we have a Savior who transforms our minds and replaces our hearts and redeems our flesh! amen! so i have joy! because pride goes before a fall, but when i am weak, He is strong! do i "ignore the scriptures" as some say? i uphold them!

which part of the body does "an unhealthy obsession" have to do with if it's not the mind? is that something to do with my elbows? my hair follicles? toes? i'm unclear -- are you commenting on my gastric health? thanks. ((remember, i don't always think straight -- so i may ask about things that seem obvious to people whose thinking is without flaw. you'll have to exercise some patience with a person like me, and be quick to forgive, and slow to anger: almost as if you are acting in love.))

my mind has no flaw ((how dare you say it could)) my mind is not flawless ((how dare i say it is)) seriously -- i cannot comprehend how to simultaneously hold and believe both of these ideas in my mind. could one of you help poor mentally-challenged post be transformed by the renewing of his mind on this point? please? one of you who doesn't have any issue with their mentality and who always thinks perfectly, with the mind of God? thanks.

i'm asking you if you've read the OP, and not only that but many of my replies, because i have justified all i have said from scripture, but you haven't spoken to any of it -- nor have you spoken to me from scripture. yet you think i'm "ignoring scripture" -- what do you think i'm "ignoring" exactly? that "we have the mind of Christ" ? then read the OP. again. i addressed that there. and if you have a concern over it -- then speak to the concern, not to what you think "post is doing" personally or to what you conceive of as 'post's mental issues' how is it no one is willing to admit that their own thinking can have an"issue" but everyone is willing to agree that their minds are not perfected? yet you all say post has a mental issue -- because you say his thinking is not good. i do find it ironic that so many of you seem to be having a hard time either accepting or comprehending what i'm saying, which is this: that we are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds, and that that transformation is an ongoing process. therefore not one of us has a perfect mind. Christ has a perfect mind - Christ alone - and we are being conformed to Him. meanwhile, if our minds are being renewed, it means they are not perfected yet - which means that they are imperfect in present state, therefore though we access the mind of Christ by the Spirit, our own minds are not fully conformed to His, just as our own flesh is not fully redeemed, so we ought all to be aware and examine how we think and consider things, and put to death those things in our minds which are conformation to the spirit of the age, in exactly the same way that we put to death in the actions of our flesh those things which are serving the carnal nature. if this is so offensive to you all, perhaps you all need to reconsider also what connotation you attach to the phrase "mental issues" and whether you are unfairly looking down your noses on those who you would feel comfortable assigning that description to, since you are so troubled by the very notion that it might apply to yourselves. here - -i say it: i have mental issues. just as much as i daily go to war against the powers of the air, in my own flesh crucifying the lust of it, and of the eyes, i crucify also the pride of life, and freely submit myself to the Lord that my mind may be transformed into His likeness. if i do not confess to him that there are issues with my own mentality, how then shall He perfect it? in my ignorance? perhaps so -- but the scripture says that with all my getting, i should get understanding: this is wisdom. y'all are free to reject this and consider your minds perfect and flawless, utterly pure in every idle thought and pattern -- while at the same time denying that same statement, though you think of yourselves with the description. as for myself, perhaps it is simply my mental issue, but i would consider it to be double-mindedness in myself, or cognitive dissonance, to reject the idea that there is any issue with my mentality, while at the same time rejecting the idea that it has no issue whatsoever. just seems like direct opposites to me, and i can't see how to hold them both at the same time: my mind has no flaw my mind is not flawless ??? you all are right, then, in your constant implications -- post is nuts; he has mental issues. he thinks the Spirit has directed him to remind the brethren that they are not equal to God in their capacity to think, nor in the way that they think -- that His thoughts are higher than their thoughts - so that we should all remember to be humble and meek before God and towards each other. but in actuality post is not speaking in love and glorifying God, as he supposes -- nay, post is trash-talking everyone and looking down his nose at us all, and even though post constantly re-iterates that he is speaking also of himself, he doesn't mean it, and even though post is constantly referring to scripture, he ignores it, and even though post is constantly denigrating himself, post is actually just being vain and giving a false show of humility. yeah. y'all are right. it's my mental issue, as you say. which you would know, because as you say -- none of you have any issue with your thinking ((though your thinking isn't perfect, also as you say)) i don't get it -- but since i have mental issues, i guess i'll just believe you. you win! all of you! better now? ♥

. . . he says, diagnosing post's "problems" and insinuating that post has a mental issue of his own. you really don't comprehend what i'm getting at here, do you?

it's not as if i've never heard your position before. the scripture is not set against itself -- so what i think you and i both need to do is not take your bullet list as though it's the only thing the Bible says, but see how those things are reconciled with verses like this one: And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. (John 6:39) . . because what, do we doubt that Christ is faithful to fulfill the will of the Father? and do you notice that He's talking about 'those who have been given to Him' by the Father -- not 'those who gave themselves to Him by their own free will' ? the ones elected by the Father - not the ones who elected themselves. because as much as you can make a bullet list, i can make a bullet list of scriptures that indicate that "the gift and calling of God is irrevocable." so whatever scriptures you have in mind, the correct way for us to understand them must be consistent with John 6:39 and every other scripture that gives the impression that those who are being saved are elected, predestined, and cannot lose the gift that they have been given; that when we are faithless He remains faithful, & that salvation is by mercy, not works, so that it depends on God, not on the effort or desire of man. you've already been given an explanation that harmonizes this: that those 'dozens' of verses you have sitting at the ready to fire off are talking about losing rewards and blessings, not about having one's adoption revoked, or the absolute redemption given by God's grace annulled, or Christ's atonement set at naught. so which one do you think can't possibly be understood this way? perhaps that is where you should start -- and maybe after you fully consider Romans 9, because if you don't understand His sovereignty, it may be difficult to understand the central question of this thread.

ok, then get back to us after you've further considered it.

does that mean you get to ignore what comes after? it is not "scripturally in error" -- read the OP, not just the title. i'm telling you from love, that you should all be aware not to place faith in your own minds, which were brought up in the corruption of the spirit of the age, but truly accept the scripture - and be transformed through the renewing of them. the argument you guys are presenting is from vanity, not from scripture. what you are essentially telling me is that you prayed to God, 'Lord i need Thee every hour - please take my life and save it, redeem me, for i am unworthy of you. but not my mind, Lord. there's nothing wrong with my mind, it has no issues. everything else, sure, but in my thinking i am perfect already and have no need of your saving power to renew' what do you think, post is 'talking down' to everyone? post is telling you this because he loves you, and has seen in his own life how that his mind has need of God every bit as much as every other part of post.

if you are not saying that your mind is perfect, how can you deny that there is any "issue" with it? that objectively seems like a mental issue on its own, doesn't it? this is what the scripture says - not what "post" says - be transformed by the renewal of your mind. does your mind then need renewal, or does it not need renewal? or does this scripture no longer apply to you, because you are perfected, and have already attained it?

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. who can say that they do this? who truly loves the Lord with their entire heart? with all of their soul? with their entire mind? whose every idle thought is completely holy and pure and needs not to be renewed? whose every intention and desire is absolutely perfect in His sight? whose soul is blameless and good? that same one has no need of Christ, and makes the cross as if it is nothing. but our minds, too, are crucified with Him, that they may be also raised up with Him, and made new. if our minds then are being transformed and renewed by Him, then as much as you must mortify the old nature in your flesh, you must also mortify your old ways of thinking in your mind.

so your brain and your thinking is perfect? other things may be flawed, but certainly not your mind? because that is what you are saying, when you reject the idea that your mentality may have issues. this sword cuts deep; i know. but our Healer is a surgeon, skilled in every way, and trustworthy above all others.

remember the teaching of our Lord: two men went to the temple to pray, and it was not the man who boasted that he was thankful not to be like other men, and who found no fault in himself who was justified. it was the man who cried "Lord, have mercy on me!" who was justified. it is fine and well, and good, to remember and think about what is right and what is holy and what is good. but it is unwise to forget who we are, or to pretend we are what we have not yet become. you are not "what you speak" - reality is not "what you say it is." you are what you are, and reality is what it is. how many of you agreed when i said that we are not actually worthy, but Christ alone is worthy? but how many of you are taking offense that there might be something about you that makes you unworthy! how many of you agree that you need Christ? but how many of you are taken aback to hear the idea that there is something specific you need Christ for! do not be pressed into the mold of the spirit of the age, but be transformed, having your minds renewed by the Spirit of God. if you tell the Spirit "my mind has no need of renewal" -- do you imagine He is grieved, or well pleased? amen, keep your minds on what is pure and right and good. things such as walking humbly before God, and things such as recognizing the truth, both His abundant provision for us and our abundant needfulness for Him.

and what about one who is not perfect in either word nor thought nor deed, but who goes around acting as if they are? what of that person who has no humility, nor meekness? what about the person who does not examine themselves, and is not honest with themselves? a person who puts on a fake smile in every situation, and always acts as though everything is "fine" and "wonderful" while in their heart they are troubled, what kind of person is that? is that a person who speaks and honors the truth, or is that a person who deceives both themselves and others? Like clouds and wind without rain is one who boasts of gifts never given. (Proverbs 25:14)

i'm telling you all, we all have issues with our mentality. even having been declared holy, and being sanctified and redeemed - we must struggle against the influence on our way of thinking by the spirit of the age, which corrupts men's minds, and out of whose tutelage we who believe all were rescued. demolishing those old carnal ways of thinking is part of our ongoing sanctification & redemption, the renewing of our minds.

i would be pretty excited if you could teach me how Romans 9 is actually describing mankind's free will. why do so many people act like "free will" is the ultimate virtue and that all doctrine must be held up to whether or not it includes "free will" or not? but is God waiting around like your servant to see if you will choose Him or won't? is He ever "surprised" by what you decide to do? do you think He is just pacing back and forth in the heavens wondering if you will "elect yourself" or not? worried that you might not, because then He'll sure look silly for planning so many things for your life? but 'oh well' Zach chose this instead of that. too bad God. guess it's back to the drawing board for the Almighty. why does that idea seem to be the 'litmus test' for sound doctrine, and not God's sovereignty ?? humans are bizarre in their thinking. but they all think they think straight. so weird!