unworthydude

13 minutes ago, BacKaran said:

Thanks, I think but it's not me, it's the Holy Spirit?

Truly, amen.

On 11/7/2016 at 0:58 PM, BacKaran said:

With the biblical information given to us, from the bible, all evidence points towards Jerusalem.

Please read Mike's article and state why you don't believe it's Jerusalem?

Blessings

Karan

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Anti-Zionists are racists, pure and simple.

Does that mean God is anti-Semitic too based on your parameters?.. Didn't God declare he would make them be hated and put out of the land?

• Lam 4:11-16  The LORD has fulfilled His fury, He has poured out His fierce anger. He kindled a fire in Zion, And it has devoured its foundations.  (12)  The kings of the earth, And all inhabitants of the world, Would not have believed That the adversary and the enemy Could enter the gates of Jerusalem— (13)  Because of the sins of her prophets And the iniquities of her priests, Who shed in her midst The blood of the just.  (14)  They wandered blind in the streets; They have defiled themselves with blood, So that no one would touch their garments.  (15)  They cried out to them, "Go away, unclean! Go away, go away, Do not touch us!" When they fled and wandered, Those among the nations said, "They shall no longer dwell here."  (16)  The face of the LORD scattered them; He no longer regards them. The people do not respect the priests Nor show favor to the elders.

Wait, isn't a Jewish only state discriminating? I thought Jesus's new covenant removed the racial distinction?

• Rom_10:12  For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.

Are Jews Christian now? I thought they rejected God's Son and adopted the Talmud and mystical Kabbalah from Babylon instead? Interesting. ..

So you're saying we need to support a Jewish state?

Based on their covenant, didn't they have a conditional, blessing or cursing land agreement according to their obedience in Duet 28 and Lev 26? Have they repented of their sins and received atonement yet?

• Deu 28:63-65  And it shall be, that just as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing; and you shall be plucked from off the land which you go to possess.  (64)  "Then the LORD will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known—wood and stone.  (65)  And among those nations you shall find no rest, nor shall the sole of your foot have a resting place; but there the LORD will give you a trembling heart, failing eyes, and anguish of soul.

• Lev 26:31-33  I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your sweet aromas.  (32)  I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.  (33)  I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you; your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.

Oh, I see. Ok. So they deserve it regardless? So, Zion can be built without obedience to God? Sort of a man-made kingdom?

• Mic 3:8-12  But truly I am full of power by the Spirit of the LORD, And of justice and might, To declare to Jacob his transgression And to Israel his sin.  (9)  Now hear this, You heads of the house of Jacob And rulers of the house of Israel, Who abhor justice And pervert all equity,  (10)  Who build up Zion with bloodshed And Jerusalem with iniquity:  (11)  Her heads judge for a bribe, Her priests teach for pay, And her prophets divine for money. Yet they lean on the LORD, and say, "Is not the LORD among us? No harm can come upon us."  (12)  Therefore because of you Zion shall be plowed like a field, Jerusalem shall become heaps of ruins, And the mountain of the temple Like the bare hills of the forest.

But wait, should we really support their blessings apart from obedience to God? Doesn't God prophecy a judgment against them?

• Zec 14:1-2  Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.  (2)  For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Is God just being anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic? Should I approve of their state apart from God's covenant of law and obedience with them? I love my kin but should I help them despite God's conditions? Am I sinning supporting a godless rebellious nation who God is going to judge? Can I just love them by praying for them to repent and receive God's forgiveness in Christ and not be anti-Semitic for not supporting them?

18 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't know the answers. I think it's something we can know because it's in the Revelation. It's probably something we should know since Jesus told us, and it's the beginning of all that comes after.

Have we seen the first two seals opened?

Is the conquer of the 1st seal a worldwide force immediately? Or does he just begin to conquer and build dominance over time?  Could that be happening now, in 2016? Has that been occurring for a period of time already? Will this conqueror dominate through military or political power? Wealth? Better social policies? All of the above? Something else?

Is the 2nd seal an immediate and total worldwide phenomenon? Is peace going to be taken increments over time? Is this going on now? Has this been going on? Will peace being taken from the earth be the result of war? Terrorism? Alien invasion? Something else?

From what I see these conditions are in effect now, today, and growing in influence. But does that mean the seals have been opened, or are we seeing what might be initial action before the full operation begins?

D.

On 3/30/2016 at 6:20 PM, other one said:

A question came up in a different thread and I think it was or will be aborted...    I just wondered how many here thinks that Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem.

This is the key to all future prophecy.

56 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

(I knew her name didn't look right.)

People are afraid of loneliness, even in their walk with God.   It is hard to accept for some, others not so much, depending on one's personality type, but the loneliness we are called to as we deepen our walk with God goes very deep.   When God calls us to the desert to walk with Him alone, we naturally recoil at first at the great expanse of arid nothingness revealed before us - the loneliness and starkness of it  - only rarely punctuated by an oasis and refreshing.  Yet, it is in this desert God strips us of ourselves; it is in this desert we learn to stop seeking the Hand of God, and to seek His Face instead.  

  

Wow. That is so well said. I love it. Thank you for clarifying so precisely what God has done in my walk with Him. He "strips" us indeed. Purging us of a self life that must die anyways. Throughout our lives, He removes for us, bit by bit, positions, people, places, things or expectations that were choking out His love for us so that we can learn to lovingly trust and know Him. He fills those gaps when they get taken and we find what we really wanted anyways, Him. I like what you said. We learn to stop seeking His hand and instead seek His face. So true and brilliantly said.  I found the more I've seen His hand taking care of me, I've learned to seek Him on a deeper level and that fear has given way to love and trust. It's like He's preparing us to go home and meet Him.

7 hours ago, thereselittleflower said:

The world today has become more and more narcissistic, more and more self centered, more and more me, me, me, me, me.

Ayan Rand had a good deal to do with this, with her philosophy that only what is of benefit to me is of importance, and if it doesn't benefit me, then the needs of others have no relevance.  This thought has increasingly permeated our society, even affecting christians in their behavior towards others. 

We lift the idea of self above others rather than others above self.  

This is why.

 

But yes, there are still those to whom friendship matters, but they are not easy to find.   The Christian walk can be a very lonely one, but if we accept it, it will bring us closer and closer to God who becomes our all in all.

 

Great post! Ayn Rand was one of many who I associate as teaching the Satanic gospel of self deification. It's in every movie and tv show now. It's everywhere and in everybody. Truly a doctrine of demons. Nobody seems to care to discern it and it's making this world very cold. Everybody is just out to 'get theirs' at the expense of others.

This makes the Christian walk a very lonely one. Even Christians have this influence that permeates their walk. You can try to love others but many still will not care. You are so right on when you say that, "if you accept it, it will bring us closer and closer to God who becomes our all in all." That's excellent. Well said. He has purposed the loneliness that we might get to know Him more. I can relate to that a lot. 

The ideal is to be who Christ wants us to be and love them anyways. Lest we become cold as well.

On 1/10/2016 at 0:01 PM, purplestars said:

What do you do if friends don't forgive you? How do you know if God forgives you? Why are people so shallow in this day and age? Why do I feel like friendships are no longer binding and people are so selfish? What if you come to someone and try and reach out (they also hurt you) and they ignore you completely? Are people only able to see their side of things? Does friendship matter to anyone anymore? I'm struggling. 

Your friends are in sin. They are commanded to forgive you.

• Mat_6:14  "For if you forgive people their wrongdoing, your heavenly Father will forgive you as well.

What you have to do is love sinners and trust them to God. How do you do this? God loves you and He is your resource to love others.

• 1Jn_4:19  We love because He first loved us.

When you receive His love by trusting that Jesus died for your sins then you will see how to overcome the hate of this world and be the person Christ was to you. You can see the harshness of others as a mere lack of the same love that you have not accessed by faith. Believing that God loves you is a tremendous experience when you understand how much He loves you. Look at these verses...

• Heb_4:16  Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
• Rom 5:10  For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
• 1Jn_1:9  If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Do you believe this? Do you believe He loves you?

Believing in God's love for you will enable you to go to your friends who are bitter towards you and give you the love to continue to bless them and love them.

• Mat_5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Look over your life and remember your sins. Then realize that despite these sins in your life, God loves you. He loves you so tremendously. Take this love and show others the same. It will overwhelm everybody. Who can hate someone who loves them truly? A love not in pretense but with a heart that want's their best... Prays for them and cares for them. Show them your repentance. Be honestly humble.

You will only love if you realize how much you have been forgiven yourself.

• Luk_7:47  Therefore I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven; that's why she loved much. But the one who is forgiven little, loves little."

Trust in His love...

On 1/20/2016 at 3:16 AM, Catsmeow said:

 I'm in a field that's anything but sterile. I'm in the thick of it...and when the battle heats up I'm looking for someone I can just vent to.  I feel 'bout as alone as the children (and adults) I'm working with. In case nobody's noticed, "It's a war zone out there.." and I feel all alone sometimes.  

I have a boy (a teenager) who's mother's boyfriend molested him while she watched. For this boy, Satan is his "father figure" and he refers to himself as "Fallen Angel" (not really understanding the connotation). He's in serious pain. He writes poetry that glorifies his only understanding of a savior. In his sad and perverted world he's already started torturing animals and he's ashamed of this...but he's in so much pain he doesn't know how to ease his own pain. He wouldn't stand a chance here...when he talks to me it's *F* every other word. That's what he hears in his world. If I "chastised him" what would that accomplish? I'm stay clean and unblemished - and I miss every chance of showing unconditional love to someone who's never known it.

I've made steady progress since I take him right where he's at. I don't condemn his poetry of darkness - I thank him for letting have the privilege to enter his sad and tragic world. I tell him how talented he is and he's opening up and trusting me, (something that doesn't come easy for him), like a flower - I'm seeing the nectar pour out. It gives me chills when I think about it. I realize how God really sees him.  

At first when I reached out to him he said he couldn't handle the light because it hurt his eyes and he was afraid. I didn't let that keep me away...I went in after him like the shepherd going after the one who was lost. I was doggedly persistent - but in a gentle way. That's what my Father taught me to do. Jesus is persistent but always a gentleman. 

 I'm in a war zone and if I wanna stay  "clean" I can't "enter the house of a sinner" - (like Jesus and the tax collecter, Matthew.)  I'm in with the worst of the worst...and I don't always say, "Please" and "Thank you" - so if you ever thought little of me, you'll think even less of me now. I'm not necessarily "cleaned" up when I'm working in the trenches. It's hard work.  I want souls. I leave the supply of whole blood to the Donor, who knows how to clean up the dead and dying in the trenches. I'll stay up all night and talk to someone in pain. When people use strong profanity I know it's a manifestation of the language of pain. I'm in the trenches, brothers and it gets real dirty...

I love your heart. That kind of love is so beautiful in an ugly world. You are experiencing the deeper wisdom of God's love. We don't chase symptoms when the Great Physician wants to fix the main problem. All the evils a child can be is a test of love for them. It's like they are testing you to see if you will still love them. When they see your love despite their sins, it's like the gospel in that it will break their cold heart and make them want to be loving back. Seeing the love of God through you is a seed the Lord can use to plant His gospel so that it can grow. Your love in a harsh world shines so bright. The goodness of God draws us to repentance. That means that His love is applied before we repent. We are to love sinners and if we get an opportunity, love them by telling them the gospel.

One of my favorite verses is Romans 5:8

Rom 5:8  But God proves His own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us!

People will fail us but God proved His love by dying for us. Even while we were still sinners. There is love even while we sin. He loved us even when we couldn't love Him. We were too immature. Like children. Broken and lost. "Without hope and without God in the world." Eph 2:12

Praise God for this kind of love for it is how we are loved by God. Good work child of God!

51 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

 

Hi unworthydude,

 

Thank you for interacting on this topic. Before I answer some of your questions, may I make a suggestion. If you just post a couple of points then people can more easily read & understand what you are saying & then we can have a fruitful discussion. By posting so much, it just looks like `a dump` of info & people often `jump over` it.

 

So to some of your points –

 

I know. Forgive me. It's definitely hard to for me to be succinct because I build a case with arguments that I just have to include. They're like my babies who I have to let out and play. Plus, I'm horrible at forums. I like to research Biblical topics and social forums are a great place to test my beliefs because you folk are the only ones I know on planet earth even discussing these matters. 

 

1. What does the first `7 weeks` relate to?  &  

2. `Weeks.` days, months, years?

 

`Know therefore & understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore & rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince , there shall be 7 weeks & 62 weeks;……`

 

This 7 weeks refers to the `going forth of the command to restore & rebuild Jerusalem.` Jerusalem had been mostly destroyed by invading Babylonians. Under the Persian kings some restoration had happened, but it was when Nehemiah was given the command by King Artaxerxes of Persia that the rebuilding of the gates & walls commenced.

 

The time period for this rebuilding was over 49 years – 7 x 7 years. This clearly gives us the understanding that `weeks` in Daniel 9: 24 – 27 refers to a period of years.

 

The life span of the anointed prince would rule this interpretation out as I argued.  The rebuilding timeline can be explained not by looking at a past rebuilding but a future one. If we look at what will need to be rebuilt, we can see that the rebuilding is a street and a wall in Jerusalem. 49 years is not needed. Modern and future construction can rebuild rather quickly. 69 weeks is 1 year 3 months.

• Dan 9:25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

 

`Weeks` -  Heb. `shebuah` meaning sevened. ie. a week (specifically of years) (Strong`s)

 

The word shebuah as I pointed out also is used for a Sabbath week of days.

 

 

 

1. Why is Israel in the land during the 69 weeks?

    

   Israel is under God`s chastisement for the 70 X 7 time period. In that time they are not the rulers of the other nations but are under Gentile rulership.

    

     Yes, they were originally sent out of their land because they had broken the Sabbath laws.

 

• Lev 26:34 "Then the land shall enjoy its Sabbaths as long as it lies desolate, while you are in your enemies' land; then the land shall rest, and enjoy its Sabbaths. 35 As long as it lies desolate it shall have rest, the rest that it did not have on your Sabbaths when you were dwelling in it.

 

• 2Ch 36:21  To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.

 

However, as I pointed out, they were sent back to their land by Cyrus the Persian king and stayed in their land during the time that you say that they would have been fulfilling the 70 weeks of years. The verses above says that they would have had to been out of the land if it was a Sabbath consequence. That was just one of my arguments on this Sabbath view.

 

"1. The one and only consequence for breaking the Sabbath land-rest law was that they would be sent out of the land."

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1. Why culminate a prophecy to the event of Jesus coming on a colt into Jerusalem.

    

   I wrote on this in my previous comments. Did you read them? Zechariah the prophet, prophesied that Israel`s king would come to them riding on a colt into Jerusalem. (Zech. 9: 9)

    

   This was fulfilled on Palm Sunday when Jesus, Israel`s king came riding on a colt into Jerusalem being acclaimed by the great multitude of people. (Luke 19: 28 – 38)

 

 

Yes, I am familiar with that verse but my point was that the scripture does not record that event as being significant to a fulfillment by Daniel. The occurrence of Jesus coming into Jerusalem to fulfill a time frame long ago recorded would be an incredible fulfillment. I don't want to make an argument from silence but simply to take notice that the proof is not astounding to conclude as you have, especially when other interpretations can readily account for this verse as well.

 

 

1. The meaning of other time periods in Daniel. I will answer this in my next thread which deals with those details.

    

   Marilyn.

     

I appreciate the challenge and your thread. Please know that I want this exchange to be in love and not divisive or anything but objective.  I respect you and anybody who debates my ideas. On the outset, this is not personal and if you can prove that I am wrong, I will acquiesce. Although, it might take some time for me to process it. Just know I have no axe to grind but I'm only trying to challenge ideas and come to the knowledge of the truth as I hope you are too. Thanks for reading my long ...long...long.. post. lol Ugh, I pray God to show me how to keep it short and to the point.

I've pasted below some previous arguments that I had typed up against the view that you are representing. These are my arguments that I came up with so. ..What do you think?

Here are my reasons why the 70 weeks are not to be interpreted in years but literal weeks. If this is true then there is no 7 year tribulation. Here's why...

The 70 weeks are not 490 days=490 years. It HAS TO BE a shorter amount of time based on the life of the anointed prince. Look...

•         Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

•         Dan 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.  Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

(These verses above have been translated by some to include the 62 weeks and the 7 weeks together to make up 69 weeks but that distorts the original distinct 7 and 62 weeks and makes them read unnatural. The first seven weeks relate to the coming of a prince. The 62 weeks are in regard to the rebuilding. I won't go heavily into the translation problems but I firmly believe the texts are to be understood from the divided interpretation of 7 and 62 weeks being distinct from one another. Why would the writer intend 69 weeks but say 7 and 62 weeks? It doesn't make sense and should be rejected.)

I had previously believed, like most scholars, that the 70 weeks represent 490 day years based on Daniel 9:24. They then configure a timeline from Cyrus's decree to the day Jesus entered Jerusalem on a donkey to be the the first 69 weeks. Scholars then assume that the last week of 7 years is divided into two 3.5 years from Daniel 9:27 and 12:11 because of the ending of the sacrifices seeming to correlate to the half week and the 1290 days given by the angel. There is also the Rev 12:6 and Rev 12:14 reference to 1260 days being the time-times-half a time. Scholars multiply the 3.5 years to make a final 7 year/week of "tribulation".

However that is not consistent to the weeks of Daniel 9 and should not be the sole interpretive measure. Clearly, we can see that the anointed prince's life span is within the 70 weeks forcing them to be 70 literal weeks. This is clear and must be considered. Doing so, it makes the 70 weeks=490 years case wrong as I had also previously thought possible but now have changed my mind. It also makes the 7 year tribulation case wrong since it is based off of the 70 weeks being in year/days.

This has radical implications. This means that there is not a seven year tribulation that the mainstream church has based many sermons, books and movies upon. The assumption has always been based around the speculative framework of Daniel 9's seventy weeks. Please read my further arguments below.

Arguments against the traditional futurist view on the 70 weeks.

1. The one and only consequence for breaking the Sabbath land-rest law was that they would be sent out of the land.

•         Lev 26:34 "Then the land shall enjoy its Sabbaths as long as it lies desolate, while you are in your enemies' land; then the land shall rest, and enjoy its Sabbaths. 35 As long as it lies desolate it shall have rest, the rest that it did not have on your Sabbaths when you were dwelling in it.

Israel was in their own land during the time of Jesus which is supposed to have occurred during the 69 weeks of years in order to fulfill their timeline of 70 weeks or 490 years. This alone shows how impossible this interpretation has been. Israel was exiled out of the land to Babylon during the 70 years judgment but what we see in future prophecy is that Israel will remain in the land to fight. It is not until the end of the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel 9:27 that "the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator." happens and they are then told to flee Jerusalem.

•         Mar_13:14 "But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

This is a big factor preventing the 70 weeks from being Sabbath years and not to be overlooked. If the last week of the tribulation is to take place with Israel in their land then it is impossible for them to be sabbath day=years.

2. Based on how most scholars today measure Daniel’s 70 weeks by multiplying 70 broken Sabbath years by 7 years, they surmise a 490 year punishment. However, it would have to mean that the Israelite's had broken the Sabbath land rest for 3430 years. There has not been enough time for them to have been in the land to have broken that many Sabbath land rest years.

3. We have to remember that the 70 weeks is a consequence of judgment and there is also absolutely no mention of Israel breaking the Sabbath land-rest law in future prophecy outside of what scholars proclaim for Daniel 9:24. The fact that they were out of the land for over 2000 years already should have cleared up any land rest issues God might of had. Thus, ruling out the last week of years being necessary for resolving the land laws of rest.

4. There are also many other verses where “weeks” or “sevens”( shâbûa‛) means literal days. We can’t forget that the original Sabbath week was 7 days.

•         Lev 23:3 "Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work. It is a Sabbath to the LORD in all your dwelling places.

Just two chapters before the Sabbath land rest verses where scholars believe the weeks=years concept we find this:

•         Lev 23:15 "You shall count seven full weeks from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering.

Perhaps, the angel is telling Daniel that once the temple is rebuilt that a time frame coinciding with the Sabbaths days will commence. This could be a prophetic time frame until the harvest time. Remember, the 70 weeks start when the Jews rebuild Jerusalem and the sanctuary exists, meaning that this is meant for the Jews at that future time. The Jews will follow the Sabbath as even Jesus said in Mat 24:20 "Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath."

Just so people can see, “weeks’ can mean both days and years linguistically.

Brown-Driver Briggs Hebrew Lexicon states this for “weeks”:
shâbûa‛ / shâbûa‛ / shebû‛âh

Definition:
1) seven, period of seven (days or years), heptad, week
1a) period of seven days, a week
1a1) Feast of Weeks
1b) heptad, seven (of years)


5. Just because scripture at times uses weeks as years does not mean we can use it anywhere we want to. It must be shown contextually but the context of Daniel 9:24-27 reveals a time table that rules out weeks equaling years. The life span of the anointed prince is paramount in this regard and somehow has been overlooked.


6. The previous 70 years under Nebuchadnezzar was a judgment based on the Sabbath year land misuse but why is there no mention of the land resting for 490 years in the future as it was told of Israel for just the 70 years and repeated throughout scripture. E.g., 2 Chronicles, Jeremiah, Zechariah and in Daniel?


7. A 7 year Sabbath land rest places Israel back under the law. The law has been done away with when Jesus Christ came to fulfill it. The Jews will follow the Sabbath but God will not require it of them as also the temple they will rebuild, only faith and obedience to His Son Jesus Christ is required now.

•         Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two (Jew and Gentile), so making peace,

The old covenant has been replaced by the new covenant and to say that God would make the Jews serve 490 years due to breaking the Sabbath land laws of Leviticus 25 is to re-establish the law and makes the new covenant irrelevant. Any future sacrifices in the millennium can be explained as commemorative and do not entail curses. Unless someone wants to argue that the Jews are still under the law in contrast to the clear teaching of scripture.

•         Heb 10:10-14 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (11) And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. (12) But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, (13) waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. (14) For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

8. There is a problem in saying that there is a 7 year time frame remaining from the final week of Daniel 9:27. The angel tells Daniel that from the mid-point of the ceasing of the burnt offerings there is still a total of 1290 days and even 1335 days remaining. That does not fit into the 7 week, double 3 ½ year scenario. That would extend the last week beyond 3 ½ years, making the 70 weeks not the finality of events as maintained.

•         Dan 12:11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days. (12) Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days.

To resolve this issue and he others I have raised, it would seem better to allow for two different time frames concerning the finality of Israel in judgment and repentance as seen throughout scripture. There is no need to force the 70 weeks into a time frame that does not correspond to all of scripture.

9. If the 69 weeks of Daniel 9:25-26 were to have happened before and up to the time of Christ, why didn't Jesus, his apostles or later disciples ever interpret Daniel 9:24-27 as having been fulfilled or partially fulfilled during their life times? It would've been a tremendous fulfillment for believers if such prophecies were to have occurred and culminated during their time. Could we really say they didn't know? All the other prophecies that were fulfilled were revealed to us.

10. Again, there seems to be a forcing of the 70 weeks for reasons that do not make sense. For instance, in the traditional futurist view, why would the 70 weeks be broken up to when Artaxerxes gave a decree until Jesus comes to Jerusalem on a donkey? This occurs during the latter end of His ministry but why culminate a 483 year prophecy to this event and not His crucifixion? It also does not account for his other remaining time on earth. Especially the finality of his resurrection. Instead, scholars force the date to be him riding into Jerusalem on a donkey. What happened to His most critical accomplishments? Was riding on a donkey into Jerusalem that significant? It doesn’t make sense.

This problem is only exacerbated by the fact that Jerusalem continued on until 70 A.D. Supposedly, the 70 weeks is still yet to pick up after Jerusalem has been in the land since 1948? What is to explain this seemingly arbitrary relationship of events? What is to make sense of this prophecy time line?

11. If the 69 weeks of Daniel 9:25-26 were to have happened before and up to the time of Christ, why didn't Jesus, his apostles or later disciples ever interpret Daniel 9:24-27 as having been fulfilled or partially fulfilled during their life times? It would've been a tremendous fulfillment for believers if such prophecies were to have occurred and culminated during their time. Could we really say they didn't know? All the other prophecies that were fulfilled were revealed to us.

12. Here are some false assumptions many scholars make when interpreting Daniel 9:24-27:

-They assume the only allowable interpretation is the land-rest, day=year sabbatical curse. Hebrew weeks have been used for both years and days.

-They assume that the first 7 weeks of Dan 9:25 is irrelevant.

-They assume that the anointed one doesn't arrive after the first 7 weeks. It does not say after 69 weeks but after 7 weeks he arrives.

-They assume that the 62 weeks and the first 7 weeks are combined. Scripture does not say they are.

-They assume that your preselected historical dates have to be fulfilled in order to defend prophecy.

-They assume the text apart into 69 weeks and then a final 1 week. Scripture does not teach this. It teaches 7 weeks to an anointed ruler, then 62 weeks for the rebuilding of Jerusalem, then a final week made covenant with the same ruler.

-They assume that the ruler is Jesus Christ. This is not clearly taught. You are reading this into the text. Cut-off (Karath) simply means exclusion or destroying. It was a term used by God or Israel to remove a person from their community. Exo_12:15, Psa_101:8..

-They assume that you can do to the text something you wouldn't do to any other passage.

-They assume that this passage is not consistent with Daniel 11 and that you can isolate a set of passages while ignoring others.

-They assume that calculators and commentaries are more useful than the context of scripture.

-They assume you can make events fit your constructed timeline of history before rightly interpreting the construction of scripture.
I've studied the traditional futurist view and the most compelling reason to believe in a 490 year time frame is the final 7 week. I have found problems with the final 7 weeks model and have discovered a solution. This next section below will outline what I believe to be that solution.

In scripture, there are three time-frames in the futurist eschatology of Israel.

1. The first time frame is of Israel’s judgment (70 weeks).

Dan 9:24  "Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

2. The second time frame is of Israel’s spiritual salvation (1260 days).

• Rev 12:14  But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

3. The third time line is of Israel’s physical restoration (2300 evenings and mornings).

• Dan 8:14  And he said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state."

1.  The first time-frame is the 70 weeks of judgement.

We can see in Daniel that the previous 70 years of Israel’s exile was also a previous punishment.

•         Dan 9:2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

There are many prophecies making it very clear that God is going to bring a final judgment against Israel.

•         Luk_21:23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people.

•         Luk 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

•         Dan 11:36 "And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done.

•         Zec 12:2 "Behold, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup of staggering to all the surrounding peoples. The siege of Jerusalem will also be against Judah.

The 70 weeks of Daniel 24-27 is only referring to God’s judgment of Jerusalem. Look how the 70 weeks start and finish. The 70 weeks start with the rebuilding of Jerusalem and end with the desolation of Israel. There is not one mention during the 70 weeks of Israel’s repentance or restoration. The 70 weeks is only dealing with the final ‘desolation’ of Israel.

•         Dan 9:24-27 "Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. (25) Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. (26) And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. (27) And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

The question of whether 62 literal weeks is sufficient to time to rebuild Jerusalem is answered by looking at what exactly is rebuilt. It is only a street and wall as the ISV translates it.

•         Dan 9:25 …The street will be rebuilt, along with the wall, though in troubled times.

This rebuilding can occur after any one of the battles mentioned early throughout Daniel 11: 9-16.

2.  The second time frame is the 3 ½ years of Israel’s spiritual restoration:
It is not until Israel is destroyed that the 70 weeks will end. The Jews will then flee Judea and will repent beginning their 1260 days of nourishment while the antichrist turns against the church. God will then turn in their favor to deliver them.

•         Dan 12:1 "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.

•         Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished.

Right before Jerusalem is destroyed. Jesus told the Jews that when they see the abomination of desolation they are then to flee to the mountains.

•         Mar_13:14 "But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Only the believing Jews who obey Jesus will be saved. These will nourished for the 3 ½ years.

The antichrist will then go after the church during that same time.

•         Rev 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

•         Dan 7:25 He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

•         Rev 13:5-7 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. (6) It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven. (7) Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation,

There is a feeding or nourishment shown to Israel for 3 ½ years. This is the time when the Jews will reconcile with God through the prophecies revealed in the old and new testaments. When Christ comes back they will ready to receive Him as they cry out for salvation. The antichrist will be the tool to drive them home spiritually.

•         Rev 12:6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.

•         Rev 12:14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

•         Zec 12:7 "And the LORD will give salvation to the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem may not surpass that of Judah.

•         Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";

There will many Jews saved through the preaching of the prophecies and their fulfillment during that 3 1/2 years time.

•         Dan 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

•         Dan 12:9 He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.

The tribulation will not take place until after the 3 1/2 years.

•         Rev 7:3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." 4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

3. The third time frame is the 2300 “Evenings and Mornings” until Jerusalem’s restoration.

•         Dan 8:13-14 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, "For how long is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?" (14) And he said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state."

•         Eze 37:21-28 then say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land. (22) And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms. (23) They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions. But I will save them from all the backslidings in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. (24) "My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes. (25) They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever. (26) I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. (27) My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (28) Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore."


This conclusion also rules out the common interpretation that Jesus is the fulfilled anointed prince following the decree in Nehemiah. Again, the life span time restriction does not fit that as a possibility. What many people consider to be Jesus in Dan 9:26, can also be interpreted as the antichrist. The word 'anointed' has also been applied to Satan and Cyrus and doesn't require it to be Jesus. Both have been employed by God to do his service.

•         Isa_45:1 Thus says the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped, to subdue nations before him and to loose the belts of kings, to open doors before him that gates may not be closed:

•         Eze_28:14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
Nebuchadnezzar was also fulfilling God's will in sacking Jerusalem and yet was an evil person at the time of service. This was part of the curses of Deuteronomy for disobedience. God said He would bring upon them their enemies (Deu_28:48). Nebuchadnezzar was even called God's servant twice...

•         Jer_25:9 behold, I will send for all the tribes of the north, declares the LORD, and for Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction, and make them a horror, a hissing, and an everlasting desolation.

•         Jer_27:6 Now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, my servant, and I have given him also the beasts of the field to serve him.

You have to keep in mind when reading Daniel that the angel said that the 70 weeks happens at the time of the end -Dan 10:14. The time of the end is God's final outpouring of wrath or judgement on Israel's sin until they repent. It's a complete unit of time when God brings the "surrounding" nations against Israel to judge her. The time of Jacob's trouble is the long awaited final judgement. Remember, judgement begins with the house of God then the world will get theirs soon after. When Israel repents (Zech 12) God then defends them in His mercy. The antichrist is God's judgement against Israel.

•         Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

•         Dan 11:36 "And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done.

•         Luk 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

•         Luk_21:23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people.

The vision chapters of Daniel all harmonize around the antichrist who is part of the latter fourth kingdom. This same prince is mentioned throughout the Daniel 9 and 11 scenario to come against Israel. It is during his life time that the 70 literal weeks span.

It is my contention that too much emphasis is placed on the last week of Daniel 9:27 rather than trying to understand all the time frames that are given. Each time frame has its context and must be considered before harmonizing the passages can occur. The forcing of the tribulation into Daniel 9:27 does not account for all that we see that is to take place.

5 minutes ago, Watching for Jesus said:

8 minutes ago, Watching for Jesus said:

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

I believe the decree of Artaxerxes in 457 BC to the baptism of Jesus in 27 AD fulfilled the first 69 weeks or 483 years.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Jesus was cut off, crucified, after 62 weeks.  I believe in 30 AD.

I do not believe that "unto Messiah the Prince" is the same as "shall Messiah be cut off".  I believe Messiah came (was baptized) in 27 AD and Messiah was cut off in 30 AD.

 

Luke 3:1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,

Luke 2:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age

The Messiah came in the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar; was baptized; and a voice from heaven said "Thou art my beloved Son".  The fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar is about 27 AD.

 

It's a better time frame than Jesus's entry into Jerusalem which seems a bit arbitrary but overall your view still has problems, e.g., assuming the 70 weeks are years and the issues I raised concerning it. I admit I could be totally wrong but hope others can help correct me on the points I have raised. I just don't want to presume the scholars are right without having confirmed it myself. Thanks for your input.

36 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

UWD

The 70 Weeks of Sevens begin with Cyrus signing the decree to restore the building of Jerusalem.  Thus 483 years to the death of Jesus. One Seven remains.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I truly do not want to offend anybody so please take my critique with love. I wish you would have read my rebuttal to this position instead of just reinserting it as an argument. I love you bro in Christ and hope you are right and I am wrong but I have challenged what you and I believe(d) and have found it wanting. Hope you truly read it and understand why the position you are defending is weak.

On 1/22/2016 at 4:18 PM, Spock said:

Bring it brother!  (Said while eating popcorn.....I like this discussion)

Alright, here you go. I had written this before and will post it here to kick off what I think is going in the text. Please read and respond.

Here are my reasons why the 70 weeks are not to be interpreted in years but literal weeks. If this is true then there no 7 year tribulation. Here's why...

The 70 weeks are not 490 days=490 years. It HAS TO BE a shorter amount of time based on the life of the anointed prince. Look...

•         Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

•         Dan 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.  Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

(These verses above have been translated to include the 62 weeks and the 7 weeks together to make up 69 weeks but that distorts the original distinct 7 and 62 weeks and makes them read unnatural. The first seven weeks relate to the coming of a prince. The 62 weeks are in regard to the rebuilding. I won't go heavily into the translation problems but I firmly believe the texts are to be understood from the divided interpretation of 7 and 62 weeks being distinct from one another. Why would the writer intend 69 weeks but say 7 and 62 weeks? It doesn't make sense and should be rejected. )

I had previously believed, like most scholars, that the 70 weeks represent 490 day years based on Daniel 9:24. They then configure a timeline from Cyrus's decree to the day Jesus entered Jerusalem on a donkey to be the the first 69 weeks. Scholars then assume that the last week of 7 years is divided into two 3.5 years from Daniel 9:27 and 12:11 because of the ending of the sacrifices seeming to correlate to the half week and the 1290 days given by the angel. There is also the Rev 12:6 and Rev 12:14 reference to 1260 days being the time-times-half a time. Scholars multiply the 3.5 years to make a final 7 year/week of "tribulation".

However that is not consistent to the weeks of Daniel 9 and should not be the sole interpretive measure. Clearly, we can see that the anointed prince's life span is within the 70 weeks forcing them to be 70 literal weeks. This is clear and must be considered. Doing so, it makes the 70 weeks=490 years case wrong as I had also previously thought possible but now have changed my mind. It also makes the 7 year tribulation case wrong since it is based off of the 70 weeks being in year/days.

This has radical implications. This means that there is not a seven year tribulation that the mainstream church has based many sermons, books and movies upon. The assumption has always been based around the speculative framework of Daniel 9's seventy weeks. Please read my further arguments below.

Arguments against the traditional futurist view on the 70 weeks.

1. The one and only consequence for breaking the Sabbath land-rest law was that they would be sent out of the land.

•         Lev 26:34 "Then the land shall enjoy its Sabbaths as long as it lies desolate, while you are in your enemies' land; then the land shall rest, and enjoy its Sabbaths. 35 As long as it lies desolate it shall have rest, the rest that it did not have on your Sabbaths when you were dwelling in it.

Israel was under Rome in their own land during the time of Jesus which is supposed to have occurred during the 69 weeks of years in order to fulfill their timeline of 70 weeks or 490 years. This alone shows how impossible this interpretation has been. Israel was exiled out of the land to Babylon during the 70 years judgment but what we see in future prophecy is that Israel will remain in the land to fight. It is not until the end of the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel 9:27 that "the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator." happens and they are then told to flee Jerusalem.

•         Mar_13:14 "But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

This is a big factor preventing the 70 weeks from being Sabbath years and not to be overlooked. If the last week of the tribulation is to take place with Israel in their land then it is impossible for them to be sabbath day=years.

2. Based on how most scholars today measure Daniel’s 70 weeks by multiplying 70 broken Sabbath years by 7 years, they surmise a 490 year punishment. However, it would have to mean that the Israelite's had broken the Sabbath land rest for 3430 years. There has not been enough time for them to have been in the land to have broken that many Sabbath land rest years.

3. We have to remember that the 70 weeks is a consequence of judgment and there is also absolutely no mention of Israel breaking the Sabbath land-rest law in future prophecy outside of what scholars proclaim for Daniel 9:24. The fact that they were out of the land for over 2000 years already should have cleared up any land rest issues God might of had. Thus, ruling out the last week of years being necessary for resolving the land laws of rest.

4. There are also many other verses where “weeks” or “sevens”( shâbûa‛) means literal days. We can’t forget that the original Sabbath week was 7 days.

•         Lev 23:3 "Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work. It is a Sabbath to the LORD in all your dwelling places.

Just two chapters before the Sabbath land rest verses where scholars believe the weeks=years concept we find this:

•         Lev 23:15 "You shall count seven full weeks from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering.

Perhaps, the angel is telling Daniel that once the temple is rebuilt that a time frame coinciding with the Sabbaths days will commence. This could be a prophetic time frame until the harvest time. Remember, the 70 weeks start when the Jews rebuild Jerusalem and the sanctuary exists, meaning that this is meant for the Jews at that future time. The Jews will follow the Sabbath as even Jesus said in Mat 24:20 "Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath."

Just so people can see, “weeks’ can mean both days and years linguistically.

Brown-Driver Briggs Hebrew Lexicon states this for “weeks”:
shâbûa‛ / shâbûa‛ / shebû‛âh

Definition:
1) seven, period of seven (days or years), heptad, week
1a) period of seven days, a week
1a1) Feast of Weeks
1b) heptad, seven (of years)


5. Just because scripture at times uses weeks as years does not mean we can use it anywhere we want to. It must be shown contextually but the context of Daniel 9:24-27 reveals a time table that rules out weeks equaling years. The life span of the anointed prince is paramount in this regard and somehow has been overlooked.


6. The previous 70 years under Nebuchadnezzar was a judgment based on the Sabbath year land misuse but why is there no mention of the land resting for 490 years in the future as it was told of Israel for just the 70 years and repeated throughout scripture. E.g., 2 Chronicles, Jeremiah, Zechariah and in Daniel?


7. A 7 year Sabbath land rest places Israel back under the law. The law has been done away with when Jesus Christ came to fulfill it. The Jews will follow the Sabbath but God will not require it of them as also the temple they will rebuild, only faith and obedience to His Son Jesus Christ is required now.

•         Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two (Jew and Gentile), so making peace,

The old covenant has been replaced by the new covenant and to say that God would make the Jews serve 490 years due to breaking the Sabbath land laws of Leviticus 25 is to re-establish the law and makes the new covenant irrelevant. Any future sacrifices in the millennium can be explained as commemorative and do not entail curses. Unless someone wants to argue that the Jews are still under the law in contrast to the clear teaching of scripture.

•         Heb 10:10-14 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (11) And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. (12) But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, (13) waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. (14) For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

8. There is a problem in saying that there is a 7 year time frame remaining from the final week of Daniel 9:27. The angel tells Daniel that from the mid-point of the ceasing of the burnt offerings there is still a total of 1290 days and even 1335 days remaining. That does not fit into the 7 week, double 3 ½ year scenario. That would extend the last week beyond 3 ½ years, making the 70 weeks not the finality of events as maintained.

•         Dan 12:11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days. (12) Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days.

To resolve this issue and he others I have raised, it would seem better to allow for two different time frames concerning the finality of Israel in judgment and repentance as seen throughout scripture. There is no need to force the 70 weeks into a time frame that does not correspond to all of scripture.

9. If the 69 weeks of Daniel 9:25-26 were to have happened before and up to the time of Christ, why didn't Jesus, his apostles or later disciples ever interpret Daniel 9:24-27 as having been fulfilled or partially fulfilled during their life times? It would've been a tremendous fulfillment for believers if such prophecies were to have occurred and culminated during their time. Could we really say they didn't know? All the other prophecies that were fulfilled were revealed to us.

10. Again, there seems to be a forcing of the 70 weeks for reasons that do not make sense. For instance, in the traditional futurist view, why would the 70 weeks be broken up to when Artaxerxes gave a decree until Jesus comes to Jerusalem on a donkey? This occurs during the latter end of His ministry but why culminate a 483 year prophecy to this event and not His crucifixion? It also does not account for his other remaining time on earth. Especially the finality of his resurrection. Instead, scholars force the date to be him riding into Jerusalem on a donkey. What happened to His most critical accomplishments? Was riding on a donkey into Jerusalem that significant? It doesn’t make sense.

This problem is only exacerbated by the fact that Jerusalem continued on until 70 A.D. Supposedly, the 70 weeks is still yet to pick up after Jerusalem has been in the land since 1948? What is to explain this seemingly arbitrary relationship of events? What is to make sense of this prophecy time line?

11. If the 69 weeks of Daniel 9:25-26 were to have happened before and up to the time of Christ, why didn't Jesus, his apostles or later disciples ever interpret Daniel 9:24-27 as having been fulfilled or partially fulfilled during their life times? It would've been a tremendous fulfillment for believers if such prophecies were to have occurred and culminated during their time. Could we really say they didn't know? All the other prophecies that were fulfilled were revealed to us.

12. Here are some false assumptions many scholars make when interpreting Daniel 9:24-27:

-They assume the only allowable interpretation is the land-rest, day=year sabbatical curse. Hebrew weeks have been used for both years and days.

-They assume that the first 7 weeks of Dan 9:25 is irrelevant.

-They assume that the anointed one doesn't arrive after the first 7 weeks. It does not say after 69 weeks but after 7 weeks he arrives.

-They assume that the 62 weeks and the first 7 weeks are combined. Scripture does not say they are.

-They assume that your preselected historical dates have to be fulfilled in order to defend prophecy.

-They assume the text apart into 69 weeks and then a final 1 week. Scripture does not teach this. It teaches 7 weeks to an anointed ruler, then 62 weeks for the rebuilding of Jerusalem, then a final week made covenant with the same ruler.

-They assume that the ruler is Jesus Christ. This is not clearly taught. You are reading this into the text. Cut-off (Karath) simply means exclusion or destroying. It was a term used by God or Israel to remove a person from their community. Exo_12:15, Psa_101:8..

-They assume that you can do to the text something you wouldn't do to any other passage.

-They assume that this passage is not consistent with Daniel 11 and that you can isolate a set of passages while ignoring others.

-They assume that calculators and commentaries are more useful than the context of scripture.

-They assume you can make events fit your constructed timeline of history before rightly interpreting the construction of scripture.
I've studied the traditional futurist view and the most compelling reason to believe in a 490 year time frame is the final 7 week. I have found problems with the final 7 weeks model and have discovered a solution. This next section below will outline what I believe to be that solution.

In scripture, there are three time-frames in the futurist eschatology of Israel.

1. The first time frame is of Israel’s judgment (70 weeks).

Dan 9:24  "Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

2. The second time frame is of Israel’s spiritual salvation (1260 days).

• Rev 12:14  But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

3. The third time line is of Israel’s physical restoration (2300 evenings and mornings).

• Dan 8:14  And he said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state."

1.  The first time-frame is the 70 weeks of judgement.

We can see in Daniel that the previous 70 years of Israel’s exile was also a previous punishment.

•         Dan 9:2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

There are many prophecies making it very clear that God is going to bring a final judgment against Israel.

•         Luk_21:23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people.

•         Luk 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

•         Dan 11:36 "And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done.

•         Zec 12:2 "Behold, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup of staggering to all the surrounding peoples. The siege of Jerusalem will also be against Judah.

The 70 weeks of Daniel 24-27 is only referring to God’s judgment of Jerusalem. Look how the 70 weeks start and finish. The 70 weeks start with the rebuilding of Jerusalem and end with the desolation of Israel. There is not one mention during the 70 weeks of Israel’s repentance or restoration. The 70 weeks is only dealing with the final ‘desolation’ of Israel.

•         Dan 9:24-27 "Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. (25) Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. (26) And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. (27) And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

The question of whether 62 literal weeks is sufficient to time to rebuild Jerusalem is answered by looking at what exactly is rebuilt. It is only a street and wall as the ISV translates it.

•         Dan 9:25 …The street will be rebuilt, along with the wall, though in troubled times.

This rebuilding can occur after any one of the battles mentioned early throughout Daniel 11: 9-16.

2.  The second time frame is the 3 ½ years of Israel’s spiritual restoration:
It is not until Israel is destroyed that the 70 weeks will end. The Jews will then flee Judea and will repent beginning their 1260 days of nourishment while the antichrist turns against the church. God will then turn in their favor to deliver them.

•         Dan 12:1 "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.

•         Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished.

Right before Jerusalem is destroyed. Jesus told the Jews that when they see the abomination of desolation they are then to flee to the mountains.

•         Mar_13:14 "But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Only the believing Jews who obey Jesus will be saved. These will nourished for the 3 ½ years.

The antichrist will then go after the church during that same time.

•         Rev 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

•         Dan 7:25 He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

•         Rev 13:5-7 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. (6) It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven. (7) Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation,

There is a feeding or nourishment shown to Israel for 3 ½ years. This is the time when the Jews will reconcile with God through the prophecies revealed in the old and new testaments. When Christ comes back they will ready to receive Him as they cry out for salvation. The antichrist will be the tool to drive them home spiritually.

•         Rev 12:6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.

•         Rev 12:14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

•         Zec 12:7 "And the LORD will give salvation to the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem may not surpass that of Judah.

•         Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";

There will many Jews saved through the preaching of the prophecies and their fulfillment during that 3 1/2 years time.

•         Dan 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

•         Dan 12:9 He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.

The tribulation will not take place until after the 3 1/2 years.

•         Rev 7:3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." 4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

3. The third time frame is the 2300 “Evenings and Mornings” until Jerusalem’s restoration.

•         Dan 8:13-14 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, "For how long is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?" (14) And he said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state."

•         Eze 37:21-28 then say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land. (22) And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms. (23) They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions. But I will save them from all the backslidings in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. (24) "My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes. (25) They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever. (26) I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. (27) My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (28) Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore."


This conclusion also rules out the common interpretation that Jesus is the fulfilled anointed prince following the decree in Nehemiah. Again, the life span time restriction does not fit that as a possibility. What many people consider to be Jesus in Dan 9:26, can also be interpreted as the antichrist. The word 'anointed' has also been applied to Satan and Cyrus and doesn't require it to be Jesus. Both have been employed by God to do his service.

•         Isa_45:1 Thus says the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped, to subdue nations before him and to loose the belts of kings, to open doors before him that gates may not be closed:

•         Eze_28:14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
Nebuchadnezzar was also fulfilling God's will in sacking Jerusalem and yet was an evil person at the time of service. This was part of the curses of Deuteronomy for disobedience. God said He would bring upon them their enemies (Deu_28:48). Nebuchadnezzar was even called God's servant twice...

•         Jer_25:9 behold, I will send for all the tribes of the north, declares the LORD, and for Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction, and make them a horror, a hissing, and an everlasting desolation.

•         Jer_27:6 Now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, my servant, and I have given him also the beasts of the field to serve him.

You have to keep in mind when reading Daniel that the angel said that the 70 weeks happens at the time of the end -Dan 10:14. The time of the end is God's final outpouring of wrath or judgement on Israel's sin until they repent. It's a complete unit of time when God brings the "surrounding" nations against Israel to judge her. The time of Jacob's trouble is the long awaited final judgement. Remember, judgement begins with the house of God then the world will get theirs soon after. When Israel repents (Zech 12) God then defends them in His mercy. The antichrist is God's judgement against Israel.

•         Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

•         Dan 11:36 "And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done.

•         Luk 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

•         Luk_21:23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people.

The vision chapters of Daniel all harmonize around the antichrist who is part of the latter fourth kingdom. This same prince is mentioned throughout the Daniel 9 and 11 scenario to come against Israel. It is during his life time that the 70 literal weeks span.

It is my contention that too much emphasis is placed on the last week of Daniel 9:27 rather than trying to understand all the time frames that are given. Each time frame has its context and must be considered before harmonizing the passages can occur. The forcing of the tribulation into Daniel 9:27 does not account for all that we see that is to take place.

On 1/11/2016 at 6:00 AM, *Zion* said:

Zechariah 11:17

17 Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

 

Is this a description of the anti-christ?

That context is one of the saddest chapters in the Bible to me. It's where God has been so betrayed. For all His labor in loving Israel, He asks for his wages and what does He get in return?.... 30 pieces of silver.

• Zec 11:12-13  Then I said to them, "If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them." And they weighed out as my wages thirty pieces of silver.  (13)  Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"—the lordly price at which I was priced by them. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD, to the potter.

In two chapters earlier, God has sent them their true Shepherd...

• Zec 9:9  Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your king is coming to you; righteous and having salvation is he, humble and mounted on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

The True Shepherd they reject and repay God's love by murdering his Son. That's what the 30 pieces of silver were for. That's all He was worth to them. You can feel the anguish and sadness of God being betrayed. Even from Judas's kiss, by the hand of His people, the Jews, whom He died for.

• Mat 26:14-16  Then one of the twelve, whose name was Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests  (15)  and said, "What will you give me if I deliver him over to you?" And they paid him thirty pieces of silver.  (16)  And from that moment he sought an opportunity to betray him.

Because of this rejection, He delivers them into the hands of a 'worthless shepherd.' We know who he'll be. He's been announced over and over again in scripture. The next chapter, interestingly, Israel gets attacked by all the nations. We know from other verses that the nations are led by the antichrist.

He's even going to punish the the evil shepherd. In one verse, He installs him and in the next verse, He then sets out to punish him for being evil too.

• Zec 11:16  For behold, I am raising up in the land a shepherd who does not care for those being destroyed, or seek the young or heal the maimed or nourish the healthy, but devours the flesh of the fat ones, tearing off even their hoofs.
• Zec 11:17  "Woe to my worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye! Let his arm be wholly withered, his right eye utterly blinded!"

What's astounding to me is that after His rejection He still loves them and has not ultimately abandoned them. He gives them justice and then remembers His love for them and becomes their true shepherd again.

• Zec 9:16-17  On that day the LORD their God will save them, as the flock of his people; for like the jewels of a crown they shall shine on his land.  (17)  For how great is his goodness, and how great his beauty! Grain shall make the young men flourish, and new wine the young women.

Oh, the mercy of God!! May we love as He loves.

In John, Jesus contrasts worthless shepherds with Himself.

• Joh 10:10  The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. (11)  I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. (12)  He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. (13)  He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. (14)  I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,

The 'thief' fits the definition of a false christ or antichrist.

43 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, SINNERSAVED.

It's false. It never will happen because that's not what Daniel 9 is about.

I agree. There's a lot to to this study. Not sure people want to read and get into it all. I'll try and be brief and just say...um..oh forget it. It'll take too long. hahaha

anybody interested?

On 1/15/2016 at 3:15 AM, Marilyn C said:

On 1/14/2016 at 9:39 AM, Serving said:

Hi Udude,

Re theory 1,

Agreed .. out of one of those 4 Greco (EDIT : sorry not empires but kingdoms is what I meant) will come the little horn .. but, just like the build up to his coming empire, it has to come from a baseplate .. and not forgetting that out of one (or more? can't remember) of those 4 Greco kingdoms also came an ALLIANCE/MERGING with the emerging Roman Empire .. the Greco-Roman Empire .. so even though the 4th beast represents Rome it too is but a build up to the REAL FOCUS of the 4th beasts EVENTUAL FUTURE kingdom .. other words, I see the 4th beast as a DUALITY .. as the common link between the Brass & Iron's HERITAGE from whence the false prophet (ant-Christ) will emerge.

Theory 2,

I'm not feeling to be honest.

Theory 3,

You mean the 4 carpenters coming to flay those Gentile nations which raised up their horns over Israel & Judah right?

I'm not 100% sure what you mean so could you please re-word it for me bro? (sometimes I'm not so bright ;0)

And as far as the 7 heads and 10 horns theory ..

I like that explanation the most

 

Hi Serving,

Thank you for looking into this. Yes I realise that the 4th beast did not take away the other beasts dominion. Glad you see that too. However the point is that these other beasts are there & will go into the Millennium, but not ruling. So we then realise that the - Lion/Eagle, the bear, the leopard super powers are therefore all contemporary & NOT historic.

Glad you see that these nations entering the millennium.

Marilyn.

There seems to be both a historic and contemporary thing going on in the text. The imagery starts historically but remains in the future. Perhaps they remain as geographic people groups as other nations mentioned, like Edom, Moab, Persia, etc. We can't say they are not historic when Daniel tells Neb that he is the head of gold. Either he is or he isn't. Gotta stick to Daniel. The visions begin with Nebuchadnezzar, the King of Babylon, 634 – 562 BC and ends with the anti-christ.

• Dan 2:38  and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the children of man, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the heavens, making you rule over them all—you are the head of gold.
• Dan 2:28  but there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and he has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will be in the latter days.

I don't think they are successive kingdoms based on Zachariah 1:18-21 and Hosea 13:7-8. The purpose of the nations is all that matters.

• Zec 1:18-21  And I lifted my eyes and saw, and behold, four horns!  (19)  And I said to the angel who talked with me, "What are these?" And he said to me, "These are the horns that have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem."  (20)  Then the LORD showed me four craftsmen.  (21)  And I said, "What are these coming to do?" He said, "These are the horns that scattered Judah, so that no one raised his head. And these have come to terrify them, to cast down the horns of the nations who lifted up their horns against the land of Judah to scatter it."

I'm fully convinced the big picture is that the antichrist is the final metal/beast kingdom sent to judge and devour Israel for her sins. The metals and beast imagery were part of the judgments in Duet.

• Deu 28:23-26  And the heavens over your head shall be bronze, and the earth under you shall be iron.  (24)  The LORD will make the rain of your land powder. From heaven dust shall come down on you until you are destroyed.  (25)  "The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them. And you shall be a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth.  (26)  And your dead body shall be food for all birds of the air and for the beasts of the earth, and there shall be no one to frighten them away.

Look at the same imagery of the four beast kingdoms sent to attack Israel...

• Hos 13:4-9  But I am the LORD your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no savior.  (5)  It was I who knew you in the wilderness, in the land of drought;  (6)  but when they had grazed, they became full, they were filled, and their heart was lifted up; therefore they forgot me.  (7)  So I am to them like a lion; like a leopard I will lurk beside the way.  (8)  I will fall upon them like a bear robbed of her cubs; I will tear open their breast, and there I will devour them like a lion, as a wild beast would rip them open.  (9)  He destroys you, O Israel, for you are against me, against your helper.

Nebuchadnezzar was sent to destroy Jerusalem and take them into captivity. He was sent against Israel and so too will the antichrist. That leaves two other kings who "scattered" Israel. If you've read my other posts. I believe it's proven that Jerusalem is Mystery Babylon. The antichrist is not just some random bad guy but has a direct purpose. Remember, the devil is God's devil. God will use him for his purposes.

• Rev 17:16-17  And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire,  (17)  for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.
• Dan 11:31  Forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the regular burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate.

Who are the other two kings, prior to the antichrist, who have 'scattered' Israel? I figure it's Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the 2nd century greek tyrant who sacked Jerusalem and persecuted the Jews. Then you have Titus from Rome who destroyed the Jewish temple and persecuted the Jews in 70 A.D.. The Medo/Persian empire was actually kind to the Jews as Cyrus even sent them back home to rebuild their temple. After Rome, you can't really say they had a home to be thrown out of. They are in their land again and the Muslims really hate them. Is God stirring up a fourth and final enemy to judge His people? Look at this modern map I overlayed with an ancient map to line up the ancient cities who are foretold to attack Israel...

Satan is the restrainer. He must bring about the apostacy and the antichrist before Christ comes back.

The context is directly talking to when Christ will come back. He will not come until the lawless one comes first. The lawless one is the 'restrainer' to Christ's coming. The rumors were that Christ had already come and Paul is dealing with that false rumor by telling them that the antichrist must come first. Keep in mind the subject that Paul is talking about as he refers back to it throughout the context. The subject is "regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus." I am going to highlight the subject reference points as it should bring back to your mind what Paul was dealing with.. Read it with this subject in mind.

2Th 2:1 Now we ask you, brothers, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus, the Messiah, and our gathering together to him,
2Th 2:2 not to be so quickly upset or alarmed when someone claims that we said, either by some spirit, conversation, or letter that the Day of the Lord has already come.
2Th 2:3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for it will not come unless the rebellion takes place first and the man of sin, who is destined for destruction, is revealed.
2Th 2:4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god and object of worship. As a result, he seats himself in the sanctuary of God and himself declares that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Don't you remember that I repeatedly told you about these things when I was still with you?
2Th 2:6 You know what it is that is now holding him back, so that he will be revealed when his time comes.
2Th 2:7 For the secret of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the person now holding it back gets out of the way.
2Th 2:8 Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will destroy with the breath of his mouth, rendering him powerless by the manifestation of his coming.
2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the power of Satan. He will use every kind of power, including miraculous signs, lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 and every type of evil to deceive those who are dying, those who refused to love the truth that would save them.
2Th 2:11 For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.
2Th 2:12 Then all who have not believed the truth but have taken pleasure in unrighteousness will be condemned.

Satan and his lawlessness is the person now holding Jesus back. There must be a fulfillment of sin. Similarly, you can see how God is waiting for their sin to come to fruition in the Old Testament.

• Gen 15:16  And they shall come back here in the fourth generation, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete."

Speaking directly about the antichrist in Daniel, we can see that this is exactly what is happening.

• Dan 8:23  And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise.

He has been decreed to carry out God's plan of judgment on Israel. This time frame is what is preventing Jesus from returning.

Dan_11:36  "And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done.

John also states that the anti-christ is coming and yet in the world now. This anti-christ spirit is Satan. Jesus Christ is 'holding back' until Satan has been revealed in the lawless one and then Jesus will come back to destroy him. John makes it clear that "this is how we know" we are in the last times.

• 1Jn_4:3 But every spirit who does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist. You have heard that he is coming, and now he is already in the world.
• 1Jn_2:18 Little children, it is the last hour. Just as you heard that an antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.

Both writers make it clear that the church has been told about the antichrist.

• 2Th 2:6 You know what it is
• 1 Jn 4:3 You have heard that he is coming,
• 1Jn_2:18  Just as you heard

3 minutes ago, Ezra said:

So you are not convinced that the baptism WITH the Holy Spirit is an ongoing baptism which applies to every person who gets saved. Well answering a few questions from Scripture should give you confirmation of this truth.

1. Why is the Holy Spirit given to the sinner who repents and believes?

There are several reasons. He was given to us as seal (2 Cor 1:22). To pour out the love of God in our hearts (Rom 5:5). To receive power to witness (Act 1:8). To help us (John 14:26... To give us a fruitful walk (Gal 5:22) Um, I'm sure there's more but that's what I've got for now.

2. Who is the One who gives this gift?

The Father.

• Joh_14:26  But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and remind you of everything that I have told you.

3. What does the word "baptism" mean in this context?

Thayer's Lexicon

G907
βαπτίζω
baptizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe
3) to overwhelm
Part of Speech: verb

4. What is the difference between the baptism WITH the Holy Spirit and the baptism BY the Holy Spirit? And does the NT ever mention the baptism OF the Holy Spirit?

You'd have to show me some scriptures so that I can go to the Greek and see if and how those read.

5. What is the filling (or fulness) of the Holy Spirit?

Having read the texts that use this phrase, I would feel safe to say that the Spirit's filling was an empowering of God during certain times when a person was close to God or was used by God for a particular purpose.

6. Is speaking in tongues the primary evidence of being filled with the Spirit?

Maybe for some.

1Co_12:30 ...Do all speak with tongues?..

 

Here is another verse that seems to imply a one time occurrence.

• Eph_4:30  And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Just now, Ezra said:

Since you were not too sure to begin with, what makes you so sure suddenly?

I'm not. It's the process of critical thinking using negation. It's testing a truth claim to see if it either stands or falls. If you can argue the premise and prove it's weakness then I should not commit to it. It's an exercise in reasoning for truth's sake. That is why I thank you for your effort to dismantle what I put forward. It's not personal at all. Truth is objective and we test it by challenging it. If it stands then we can be more confident and assured we are on the right path. I commit to it tentatively to see if it holds water. If not, let it go. This doctrine is one of those areas that evidence is not so abundant so it makes it harder to get behind what has been proposed by the denominations.

Forums are great for this. People can tear into your view and if you are willing to learn, although frustrating as the process is, it can benefit you in the long run. I have walked away from ideas I was clinging to that weren't very strong. I'm not talking about Christianity as a whole. I am firm in my belief in Jesus Christ. He has proven Himself to me personally and I praise him everyday for His grace. I'm more talking about doctrinal issues that require some digging into and questioning.

Always argue for what you belief until you are proven wrong. Please forgive me if I come off harsh. I love you bro/sis in Christ. Sometimes arguing can sound harsh but it's like testing your engine. You have to ref it up to see how it sounds. See if there are any issues clanks or ding sounds in it. That is why they have debate teams in college. To learn how to be objective and only hold to the proven ideas. I might walk away thinking you had a great point and believe what you believe. You never know. That is why God called us to go into the world like Paul did and reason with the world and invite them into His kingdom. We can do that together before we go out and disciple others. Sorry, this is so long. I have no idea how to be succinct. hahaha

• 1Th_5:21  but test everything; hold fast what is good.
• Act_17:11  These people were more receptive than those in Thessalonica. They were very willing to receive the message, and every day they carefully examined the Scriptures to see if those things were so.
• Isa_1:18  "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.

52 minutes ago, Ezra said:

That is evidently a misapplication of 1 Cor 12:13 since (1) Paul is addressing the Corinthians long after the Day of Pentecost, and (2) this verse is about how the Holy Spirit "immerses" believers into the Body of Christ. On the Day of Pentecost, Christ poured out the Holy Spirit from Heaven and "baptized" all those apostles, disciples, and new converts with the gift of the Holy Spirit (and not all spoke in tongues either). We do not hear of 3,000 converted Jews speaking in tongues on that day, although they all did receive Christian baptism in water.

Evidently? Not very convincing for me sorry. 1. It doesn't matter when Paul addressed this issue. That's an anachronism and irrelevant to the premise. 2. You are simply asserting your premise as an argument but the premise is that which is in question. The question I am attempting to answer is: what is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit? You are assuming that it's an ongoing experience, right? I'm arguing that it could be a historical event. You can't claim I'm wrong by simply asserting your position. Your position doesn't actually negate mine. You have to prove that I am wrong by showing proof that it's not historical but ongoing. It may be evident to you but not to me based on that kind of argument. Immerses? Where did you get immersion in 1 Cor 12:13?

 Acts 10:45 includes the gentiles into the church. I'm fine with anybody disproving my argument but you need to argue better to persuade me it's wrong. Thanks for the challenge.

1Co_12:30 ...Do all speak with tongues?..

I read an interesting theological book once, can't remember the name, but never the less the premise was that the Baptism of the Spirit was actually a one-time historical event that occurred at Pentecost when the church began. The main passage I remember that was used was...

1Co_12:13  For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

The argument was based on the past tense of the language. Not too sure but interesting eh?

7 hours ago, Sister said:

 

The Woman is from above, not the earth, so her teachings are heavenly, not earthly.  God pictures his teachings as a beautiful woman, pure, undefiled, because she is clothed with the sun (truth).  The moon is under her feet, so she is high up in heaven.  Her teachings come from heaven, not the earth.

 

Interesting. Where is the scripture to support this?

The woman is Israel. Whether or not she is a harlot here is a good point. We know that she started out a young bride and later became a harlot.

• Jeremiah 2:2 "Go and proclaim in the hearing of Jerusalem, Thus says the LORD, I remember the devotion of your youth, your love as a bride, how you followed me in the wilderness, in a land not sown... 20. "For long ago you broke your yoke and burst your bonds; and you said, 'I will not serve.' Yea, upon every high hill and under every green tree you bowed down as a harlot.

It is important to understand the two Israel's within Israel. One spiritual and one fleshly.

• Rom 9:6  But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

God knows His real people on earth. Zion is the deeper prophetic true nation of God chosen in Israel>Jerusalem, but you say," So Israel cannot be Zion. " I don't think is correct and not based on scripture. Jerusalem/Israel was intended to be Zion on earth. The daughters of Zion are all going to be saved and so will Jerusalem which represents God's kingdom on earth. That is why is He is going to purify it for His name's sake. Zion will be established as God's city on earth. It does identify with Israel and Jerusalem as you can see below.

• Psa_51:18  Do good to Zion in your good pleasure; build up the walls of Jerusalem;
• Psa_69:35  For God will save Zion and build up the cities of Judah, and people shall dwell there and possess it;
• Psa_74:2  Remember your congregation, which you have purchased of old, which you have redeemed to be the tribe of your heritage! Remember Mount Zion, where you have dwelt.
• Psa_76:2  His abode has been established in Salem, his dwelling place in Zion.
• Psa_78:68  but he chose the tribe of Judah, Mount Zion, which he loves.
• Psa_87:2  the LORD loves the gates of Zion more than all the dwelling places of Jacob.
• Psa_102:13  You will arise and have pity on Zion; it is the time to favor her; the appointed time has come.
• Psa_149:2  Let Israel be glad in his Maker; let the children of Zion rejoice in their King!
• Isa_3:16  The LORD said: Because the daughters of Zion are haughty and walk with outstretched necks, glancing wantonly with their eyes, mincing along as they go, tinkling with their feet,
• Isa_4:4  when the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning.
• Isa_10:12  When the Lord has finished all his work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, he will punish the speech of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the boastful look in his eyes.
• Isa_10:32  This very day he will halt at Nob; he will shake his fist at the mount of the daughter of Zion, the hill of Jerusalem.
• Isa_30:19  For a people shall dwell in Zion, in Jerusalem; you shall weep no more. He will surely be gracious to you at the sound of your cry. As soon as he hears it, he answers you.
• Isa_31:9  His rock shall pass away in terror, and his officers desert the standard in panic," declares the LORD, whose fire is in Zion, and whose furnace is in Jerusalem.
• Isa_33:20  Behold Zion, the city of our appointed feasts! Your eyes will see Jerusalem, an untroubled habitation, an immovable tent, whose stakes will never be plucked up, nor will any of its cords be broken.
• Isa_59:20  "And a Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who turn from transgression," declares the LORD.

...

5 hours ago, thereselittleflower said:

who is the child?

 

The child is Jesus. Dragon tried to devour it, caught up to heaven, to rule the nations with a rod of iron... Metaphors do not have to include everybody. The personification of Israel as a woman or Satan as a father or dragon are the metaphors. The child is not. It would be like me saying, " My car is a dragon that flies over the mountains breathing fire." The care is literal where everything else is metaphor.

37 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

 You're saying the father of the child in Rev 12:5 is the devil?

 

 

Oh No. Not at all. It's all metaphorical as I stated. The world follows the devil spiritually and Israel is represented as mother who gives birth to a child. This language is figurative and is only used to communicate deeper ideas. The two verses are completely separate and communicate two different ideas that do not correspond. Just like the church is called a bride metaphorically... Israel is not a physical mother.