JAG**

Mark 8:34 "Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. Assumes that the listeners would use their Free Will to choose to take up their cross and follow the Lord Jesus __________________ Revelation 3:20 "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." Assumes that the readers will use their Free Will to choose to open the door. _____________ John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that whosoever believes on Him shall not perish but have eternal life." Assumes that the person hearing this will use their Free Will to choose to believe on the Lord Jesus and receive eternal life. ________________ More coming , , , JAG

`` I will post some Bible verses that clearly teach and assume the truth of human Free Will: Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love." The assumption is that the readers will use their Free Will to choose not to indulge the flesh, but will choose to serve one another in love. ___________________ John 7:17 "Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own." A clear and solid Bible verses that teaches Free Will __________________ Joshua 24:15 "But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." ____________ More coming , , , ``

The word "evil" means "disaster" and does not men sin. "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.___Isaiah 45:7 NIV Bible Gateway has 57 different English translations of Isaiah 45:7 and none of them translate it like this: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create SIN; I, the LORD, do all these things." So? So Isaiah 45:7 is not saying that God causes men to choose to commit sins. My view is that Isaiah 45:7 teaches that God brings disaster and calamity upon men for His good purposes and reasons. Some of His reasons might be to punish men for their sins. At other times He might bring disaster on His believers in order to purify them or sanctify them or to teach them valuable lessons. ______________ I do know that Isaiah 45:7 does NOT say that God caused The Mob to commit that list of sins and crimes listed down there. Looting of stores Burning police cars Rioting in the streets Throwing bricks through store front windows Shooting police officers The people who recently committed the above list of sins and crimes used their Free Will to choose to commit those sins. And they are 100% responsible and 100% to blame for their choosing to sin. Again, Isaiah 45:7 does NOT teach that God caused The Mob in the streets to loot stores, burn police cars, riot in the streets, throw bricks through store front windows, and shoot police officers. JAG

"Well I already explained my postition on human agency so the question should be derived from that. "___Glory To God Okay. And thanks for all your comments and for your contribution to the thread. Based on what you wrote up there I assume that you put 100% of the blame and responsibility on The Mob out there in the streets that did all this below. If so, then we are fully agreed. ________________________ "because of God's decision and not man's will or choices"___Gloy To God "to harden their hearts"___Glory To God Observe that list of sins and crimes down below: A question for you. Did the people who recently committed the following sins and crimes use their Free Will to choose to do these things and are they 100% responsible and to blame or is your view that God "hardened their hearts"? and caused them to do that list of sins and crimes down there? Looting of stores Burning police cars Rioting in the streets Throwing bricks through store front windows Shooting police officers

I don't have any intention to "put up" and I have explained why several times. Moreover , , , I don't have any personal interest in your hair-splitting highly philosophical nuances between certain ideas, example your desire to distinguish between {1) Human Free Will and {2} Human Volitional Agency , , , , , ,but that does not mean that you can't make your points about that. Please feel free to "hold forth" on that to your heart's content. I am interested in Real World answers to Real World questions , , , Observe that list of sins and crimes down below: A question for you. Did the people who recently committed the following sins and crimes use their Free Will to choose to do these things and are they 100% responsible and to blame? Looting of stores Burning police cars Rioting in the streets Throwing bricks through store front windows Shooting police officers

Observe that list of sins and crimes down below: A question for you. Did the people who recently committed the following sins and crimes use their Free Will to choose to do these things and are they 100% responsible and to blame? Looting of stores Burning police cars Rioting in the streets Throwing bricks through store front windows Shooting police officers

Thanks for your response, but you are not answering the crucial questions about what Real World conclusions you draw from what you are saying. If you do not have credible answers to the question below, then your beliefs have no pragmatic application to real world events. "because of God's decision and not man's will or choices"___Gloy To God "to harden their hearts"___Glory To God Observe that list of sins and crimes down below: A question for you. Did the people who recently committed the following sins and crimes use their Free Will to choose to do these things and are they 100% responsible and to blame or is your view that God "hardened their hearts"? and caused them to do that list of sins and crimes down there? Looting of stores Burning police cars Rioting in the streets Throwing bricks through store front windows Shooting police officers

No. You are incorrect. That is no more than your personal opinion that my mention of Ronald in the dialogue between Henry and The Judge was unnecessary, disrespectful and inappropriate. My view is that YOU EMOTIONALLY DO NOT LIKE the Henry and The Judge dialogue and do not have a credible response to it ---and therefore you seek to demonize it and defeat it through demonization instead of through arguments against it. ___________ Scapegoating is your personal interpretation that YOU put on my dialogue between Henry and The Judge. Mockery is your personal interpretation that YOU put on my dialogue between Henry and The Judge scapegoating- a person who is blamed for the wrongdoings, mistakes, or faults of others, especially for reasons of expediency. Ronald quoted the New King James Version of Isaiah 45:7 which says that God created evil and so I wrote the dialogue between Henry and The Judge to refute that translation and application of Isaiah 45:7 --- which was not intended to mock a fellow believer or to scapegoat anybody. Henry and The Judge makes a good and true point -- one that is not refutable -- that humans and NOT God are responsible for their evil sinful Free Will choices. _____________ HENRY AND THE JUDGE: HENRY: Yes Your Honor it is true that I robbed that bank and killed those 3 bank tellers, however Your Honor I am NOT primarily responsible for robbing that bank and killing those 3 bank tellers because Ronald Bruno told me about Isaiah 45:7 that says it is God that created all things and so Your Honor it is God that is primarily responsible and not me. Your Honor, Ronald Bruno reports that in Isaiah 45:7 the New King James Version says that "I the LORD . . .create evil" so Your Honor me and my Free Will is NOT primarily responsible for me robbing that bank and killing those 3 bank tellers THE JUDGE: Thank you so much for explaining all that to me. I fully understand and case dismissed. HENRY: Thank you so much Your Honor, for dismissing my case. I am glad I do not have to go to jail. JAG

No not petty. Rather the absolute truth -- any lengthy writ on philosophical subjects is highly interpretable. Miscellaneous Points: {1} The subject of human Free Will is highly philosophical. {2} It is also highly controversial. {3} Posters on the Internet are looking for controversy. {4} As one distinguished gentlemen here said, "The juice is in the controversy." {5} So? So don't be so quick to leave a thread that is controversial. {6} I have never been one to try to "own my OP thread" -- you are welcome to engage in "Thread Drift." {7} Your controversial and opposing views are most welcome in this thread. (8) This thread is "just one more" thread on the Internet. {9} It will soon be forever buried in the digital maze jungle of the archives. {10 Nonetheless, maybe you can post what you see and understand to be the truth and you might make a valuable contribution to the life of just one human beings. Give it a shot. {11} Go for it. Explain your positions to the thread. {12} You do not need ME to discuss Old Eppie with you in order for you to make your points about Old Eppie. {13} You can make your points. I can make my points. Others can make their points. {14} I am glad you completely agree with the overall point of the Opening Post. {15} You say there is some content in the OP that warrants minor amendments. Please feel perfectly free to make your suggestions on that. {16] If you decide to pass on this, then thanks for your comments and for the contribution that you did make to the thread. Best, JAG

It is unlike you to ignore what was ACTUALLY SAID and then proceed to draw conclusions from what was NOT SAID. JAG Previously Wrote: "No we are NOT having a serious conversation, not on this subject. I have no interest in pursuing this subject. No offense but I don't give a hoot what Old Eppie's "emotional response" would have been. Thanks for the invite though."___JAG And you quoted that too and was aware of what it actually said. So? So the subject that I had no interest in discussing was Old Eppie's "emotional response" --- never at any time did I say I was NOT interested in discussing the Opening Post. Nevertheless , , That said, I still may NOT have any interest in discussing some of the points that you might want to discuss with regard to what the Opening Post said. I am not really interested in hair-spiting and philosophical nuances that make distinctions between: {1} Human Free Will and {2} Human Volitional Agency What pray tell is the difference between Human Free Will and Human Volitional Agency? Because I merely ask you what the difference is --- does not mean that I want to discuss it. But you are MOST WELCOME to present you views on the difference between Human Free Will and Human Volitional Agency. Best. JAG ``

"The judge analogy is highly interpretable"___Josheb So are most of your lengthy posts. So are most of my lengthy posts. So are most of everybody's lengthy posts. So are most books. Articles. Poems. Movies. Cable News Programs. "and therefore doesn't prove anything"__Josheb Incorrect. Henry and the Judge proves that the institution of Free Will is recognized as valid and legitimate by the Secular World, by all of Christendom, and all of humanity. How so? Because , , , Nobody in their right mind is going to deny that human beings are to blame for their evil and sins and are personally responsible for them. All sane human beings KNOW that The Judge would NOT have said "Case dismissed." But would have put Henry in prison for robbing that bank and murdering those 3 bank tellers. Henry told The Judge that he did in fact rob the bank and did in fact murder those 3 bank tellers. Henry explained to The Judge that he was told that the New King James Version of Isaiah 45:7 said the "God created evil" and therefore it was NOT his fault that he robbed the bank and murdered 3 bank tellers. No same person is actually going to believe Henry. Henry will have to leave Earth in order to "sell crazy" , , , , Henry can not "sell crazy" to the human race. ___________ There are over 2,000,000 people in America's jails and prisons and in the case of all those who were in fact guilty as charged --- all of them are locked up because of their own personal Free Will choices to choose to commit crimes. JAG `

"because of God's decision and not man's will or choices"___Gloy To God "to harden their hearts"___Glory To God Observe that list of sins and crimes down below: A question for you. Did the people who recently did the following sins and crimes use their Free Will to choose to do these things and are they 100% responsible and to blame or is your view that God "hardened their hearts"? and caused them to do that list of sins and crimes down there? Looting of stores Burning police cars Rioting in the streets Throwing bricks through store front windows Shooting police officers

All that is true. So what do you conclude from all that? Do you conclude that God hardened their hearts so He could destroy them because they had a long history of choosing to do good and to shun evil? My Opening Post puts the blame on mankind for evil and makes mankind responsible for the evil in the world. Are you denying that? Are you saying that it is God that is to blame for the evil in the world? Your post says it was God's decision. Are you saying that those people that God decided to destroy were good, righteous, holy, loving, kind, compassionate people? Who did NOT deserve their destruction because of their Free Will choices to do evil? And if you are not saying that then why did you say this below? _________________ GloryToGod wrote: The book of Joshua explains unambiguously that God determined the opponents of Israel would be their enemy,they would lose,they would have no mercy because of Gods decision and not mans will or choices. joshua 11:18-20 Joshua made war a long time with all those kings. There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, except the Hivites, the inhabitants of Gibeon. All the others they took in battle. For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, and that they might receive no mercy, but that He might destroy them, as the Lord had commanded Moses. _______________ JAG

Scapegoating is your personal interpretation that YOU put on my dialogue between Henry and The Judge. Mockery is your personal interpretation that YOU put on my dialogue between Henry and The Judge scapegoating- a person who is blamed for the wrongdoings, mistakes, or faults of others, especially for reasons of expediency. Ronald quoted the New King James Version of Isaiah 45:7 which says that God created evil and so I wrote the dialogue between Henry and The Judge to refute that translation and application of Isaiah 45:7 --- which was not intended to mock a fellow believer or to scapegoat anybody. Henry and The Judge makes a good and true point -- one that is not refutable -- that humans and NOT God are responsible for their evil sinful Free Will choices. _____________ HENRY AND THE JUDGE: HENRY: Yes Your Honor it is true that I robbed that bank and killed those 3 bank tellers, however Your Honor I am NOT primarily responsible for robbing that bank and killing those 3 bank tellers because Ronald Bruno told me about Isaiah 45:7 that says it is God that created all things and so Your Honor it is God that is primarily responsible and not me. Your Honor, Ronald Bruno reports that in Isaiah 45:7 the New King James Version says that "I the LORD . . .create evil" so Your Honor me and my Free Will is NOT primarily responsible for me robbing that bank and killing those 3 bank tellers THE JUDGE: Thank you so much for explaining all that to me. I fully understand and case dismissed. HENRY: Thank you so much Your Honor, for dismissing my case. I am glad I do not have to go to jail. JAG

We can "build accordingly" on the following: There are no Bible verses that explicitly mention the words Free Will. There are no Bible verses that explicitly mention the word Trinity either. But there are MANY Bible verses that teach Free Will and the Trinity. ________________ There are no Bible verses that explicitly mention the word Trinity so , , , Then let us acknowledge this fact - this very plain, simple, and worthy fact that there are no Bible verses that explicitly mention the word Trinity. There are no Bible verses that explicitly say that Christians ought to conduct our church worship services on Sunday either. JAG

That is incorrect. It is irrational to claim that Americans today ARE the Canaanites or that they are characteristically like the Canaanites. The Canaanites Were Not Salvageable --- They Had Sunk To The Very Bottom Of The Immorality Scale: {A} Cold Blooded Murder. {B} Incest With Close Family Members. {C} Murdered Their Own Children {Molech} {D} Blood-Lust Gory Murder Religious Ceremonies. {E} Sex With Animals. Now The Canaanites Had Sunk To Bestiality. (11) The Canaanites were having sex with animals. Leviticus 18:23 (12) Their women were specifically mentioned as having sex with animals. Leviticus 18:23 __________ It is true that many Americans do commit serious sins for example abortions, but even a surface reading of the Opening Post will reveal that Americans characteristically have not sunk to the immoral level of the Canaanites. Abortion is a serious sin, but it is not the same as the Canaanites murdering their own children who were already born and were toddlers and above the toddler stage, perhaps even 5 or 6 years old -- burned in the fires to Molech. ____________ Then there is all the good that Americas do, for example the Christian Church in America supports World Missions and even American non-Christians who are family type people are generous in their giving to charity. There was a total absence of anything like the above in those 6 Canaanite tribes that God ordered completely destroyed. _________ JAG ``

No we are NOT having a serious conversation, not on this subject. I have no interest in pursuing this subject. No offense but I don't give a hoot what Old Eppie's "emotional response' would have been. Thanks for the invite though. Best. JAG PS Find something in the Opening Post that is incorrect. I betcha there is at least one theological error in there somewhere , , , lol , , , Be back tomorrow to see what you could find. ``

i don't think there are any Bible verse that explicitly mention Free Will. There are no Bible verses that explicitly mention the Trinity either. But there are many Bible verses that teach Free Will and the Trinity. ____________ Regarding Henry and The Judge that was with regard to Ronald's quote of the New King James Version's translation of Isaiah 45:7 up-thread. I would NOT have written up Henry and The Judge on say the NIV translation of Isaiah 45:7 JAG Scot me up Beamy. ``

We would never have had to endure Old Eppie's atheistic syllogism. I have had one atheist to many post Old Eppie to me in threads , , lol , , , Old Eppie is almost as bad as Richard Dawkins , , well no , , , not that bad. Best. JAG

I am not going to argue this with you. I don't need to give you 3 verses that mention Free Will because there are dozens of verses that assume Free Will and ask you to make a choice. ________________ What about Henry and The Judge and Isaiah 45:7 as quoted by Ronald in the New King James Version ---which NKJV was the motivation for my Henry and The Judge. JAG

"had God stopped him"___ Josheb "were God to stop him"__Josheb What if God chose NOT to stop him? God in fact DID choose NOT to stop him. How do I know? Because Old Eppie DID think up his syllogism. And Old Eppie published it abroad. And Internet atheists love to quote it and they DO constantly quote it in threads on the Internet. JAG

My understanding of human Free Will is NOT that Free Will makes man Sovereign. Agreed. Man's Free Will has never been unfettered etc etc _____________ What is your distinction between: [1} Human volitional agency and {2} Human Free Will _____________ What do you think about my , , , HENRY AND THE JUDGE: HENRY: Yes Your Honor it is true that I robbed that bank and killed those 3 bank tellers, however Your Honor I am NOT primarily responsible for robbing that bank and killing those 3 bank tellers because Ronald Bruno told me about Isaiah 45:7 that says it is God that created all things and so Your Honor it is God that is primarily responsible and not me. Your Honor, Ronald Bruno reports that in Isaiah 45:7 the New King James Version says that "I the LORD . . .create evil" so Your Honor me and my Free Will is NOT primarily responsible for me robbing that bank and killing those 3 bank tellers THE JUDGE: Thank you so much for explaining all that to me. I fully understand and case dismissed. HENRY: Thank you so much Your Honor, for dismissing my case. I am glad I do not have to go to jail. _________

I don't know what Old Eppie would say. You are looking at Old Eppie from the standpoint of a Christian. My Opening Post is looking at Old Eppie from the standpoint of Internet Atheism which appeals to Old Eppie all the time in their constant attacks on the God of the Bible as being evil as explained in the Opening Post. Agreed. Old Eppie was not as smart as he thought he was --none of his kind is. JAG Scot me up Beamy. ____________ From the Opening Post: JAG Wrote: The "New Atheists" do not correctly understand the Biblical doctrine of the Omnipotence {all-powerful} of God. Epicurus did not correctly understand the Christian doctrine of God's Omnipotence. God's Omnipotence does not mean that He can do anything. God cannot create square circles. God cannot make 2 + 2 = 7. God cannot give humans the Free Will to do evil and at the same time prevent humans from doing evil. The fatal flaw in Epicurus is he misunderstood the Christian doctrine of the Omnipotence of the God of the Bible. Conclusion: Mankind, NOT God, is the cause of sin, evil, and natural disasters in the world. ``

My view is that you may believe that, but there is not a single Bible verse that says what you say about Free Will. But there are dozens of clear Bible verses that assume all Christians and all non-Christians have a Free Will. "Choose you this day whom you will serve"__Joshua And there are dozens of other verses that assume Free Will. My view is that you do not understand what the Bible teaches about Free Will. Did the people who did the following use their Free Will to choose to do these things? Looting of stores Burning police cars Rioting in the streets Throwing bricks through store front windows Shooting police officers ____________________________________________ I leave you with , , , HENRY AND THE JUDGE: HENRY: Yes Your Honor it is true that I robbed that bank and killed those 3 bank tellers, however Your Honor I am NOT primarily responsible for robbing that bank and killing those 3 bank tellers because Ronald Bruno told me about Isaiah 45:7 that says it is God that created all things and so Your Honor it is God that is primarily responsible and not me. Your Honor, Ronald Bruno reports that in Isaiah 45:7 the New King James Version says that "I the LORD . . .create evil" so Your Honor me and my Free Will is NOT primarily responsible for me robbing that bank and killing those 3 bank tellers THE JUDGE: Thank you so much for explaining all that to me. I fully understand and case dismissed. HENRY: Thank you so much Your Honor, for dismissing my case. I am glad I do not have to go to jail. _________ Best. JAG

JAG Writes: Here is one atheist that believed that the Universe had an Intelligent Designer. “I am an atheist, but as far as blowing up the world in a nuclear war goes, I tell them not to worry.”___Fred Hoyle “Life cannot have had a random beginning ... The trouble is that there are about 2000 enzymes, and the chance of obtaining them all in a random trial is only one part in 10^40,000, an outrageously small probability that could not be faced even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup.”___Fred Hoyle “There is a coherent plan to the universe, though I don't know what it's a plan for.”__Fred hoyle “The notion that not only the biopolymer but the operating program of a living cell could be arrived at by chance in a primordial organic soup here on the Earth is evidently nonsense of a high order.”__Fred Hoyle “Once we see, however, that the probability of life originating at random is so utterly miniscule as to make it absurd, it becomes sensible to think that the favorable properties of physics on which life depends are in every respect deliberate ... . It is therefore almost inevitable that our own measure of intelligence must reflect ... higher intelligences ... even to the limit of God ... such a theory is so obvious that one wonders why it is not widely accepted as being self-evident. The reasons are psychological rather than scientific.”___ Fred Hoyle “A junkyard contains all the bits and pieces of a Boeing 747, dismembered and in disarray. A whirlwind happens to blow through the yard. What is the chance that after its passage a fully assembled 747, ready to fly, will be found standing there? So small as to be negligible, even if a tornado were to blow through enough junkyards to fill the whole Universe.”___Fred Hoyle “It isn't the Universe that's following our logic, it's we that are constructed in accordance with the logic of the Universe. And that gives what I might call a definition of intelligent life: something that reflects the basic structure of the Universe.”___Fred Hoyle Source: https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/199992.Fred_Hoyle __________________ Who was Fred Hoyle? "Sir Fred Hoyle (24 June 1915 – 20 August 2001)[1] was an English astronomer who formulated the theory of stellar nucleosynthesis . . .He spent most of his working life at the Institute of Astronomy at Cambridge and served as its director for six years." Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hoyle __________ JAG ``