JAG**

Thanks for all the comments. Much appreciated. So far all this below remains unrefuted: Will Christians become as numerous as the stars in the sky and as numerous as the grains of sand on the seashore? Yes! Hebrews 11:11-12 From Abraham the father of all who are of faith came "descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore." Question: Do these three Bible verses teach that Christians are now, and will be in the future, few in numbers? No! (A) Luke 12:32's "little flock" (B) Matthew 7:14's "only a few find it" (C) Matthew 22:14's "many are invited, but few are chosen" Why? Because there are well over 2,300,000,000 Christians in the world .and 2.3 billion Christians cannot be a "little flock" or only a "few". There are over 16,000,000 Southern Baptist in the United States. Sixteen million Christians cannot be a "little flock" or a "few." There are over 1300 Protestant mega-churches in the United States with weekly attendance over 2000. That many Christians cannot be a "little flock" or just a "few." Anticipated objection: "Those people up there are not true Christians."___John Small Church My reply to John Small Church: It is absolutely impossible for you to know for certain that they are not true Christians. You do not have the power or the authority to judge the hearts of other people. That's just a fact and its an absolute fact. Only God has the power and the authority to judge the hearts of people and to know if they are, or are not, true Christians. I say all this, John Small Church, in the spirit of love and kindness. Remember this: You, like all Christians, are imperfect. You are not sinless. Therefore any one of those 2.3 billion Christians could look at the imperfections in your life and they could say about you, what you just said about them, namely that you are not a true Christian. So the conversation can end up like this: Bob: I am a true Christian, but you Tom, are not a true Christian. Tom: No Bob, I am a true Christian, but you are not a true Christian. Bob: No Tom, you do not meet my standards for being a true Christian. Tom: No Bob, you do not meet my standards for being a true Christian Because there are well over 2,300,000,000 Christians in the world .and 2.3 billion Christians cannot be a "little flock" or only a "few". ____________ My Opening Post and this thread has nothing to do with Christian Eschatology. Zero. ``

“The Bible is not the word of God but the words of men who claim they were inspired by God to write the Biblical books.”____Randolph Ranter That up there is False. The Bible is the word of God. Here below are some Bible verses that teach that the Bible is the word of God. 1 Peter 1:23-25 "For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. For, “All people are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the LORD endures forever.” And this is the word that was preached to you." JAG Note: Here Peter says that the word that was preached to his listeners {and perhaps readers} was the word of the LORD. _______________ 1 Thessalonians 2:13 "And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe." JAG Note: This is a clear and bold affirmation from the Apostle Paul that the message of the Apostles is the word of God. __________ 2 Peter 3:16 "He {Paul} writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." JAG Note: Here Peter seems to be thinking of Paul's writings as also being the Holy "Scriptures." And now we KNOW that they are. ___________ Acts 17:11 "Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." JAG Note: The writer of Acts views the Scriptures as having authority to settle questions about doctrinal issues. ____________ Colossians 3:16 "Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts." JAG Note: The “message of Christ” is found in God’s word the Bible and especially found in the New testament. __________ Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." ________ Isaiah 55:11 "So is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it." ________ John 5:39-40 "You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." JAG Note: Here the Lord Jesus says that the Old Testament Scriptures testify about Him. ___________ John 17:17 "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth." ___________ Luke 11:28 "He replied, Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it." ________ Luke 24:44-49 "He said to them, This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms. Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high." JAG Note: {1} The Lord Jesus here presents the Scriptures as having authority. {2} Also notice "the forgiveness of sins will preached in his name to all nations" So? So you can connect Luke 24:44-49 with the Lord Jesus' Great Commission in Matthew 28:16-20 "go and make disciples of all nations" ___________ Matthew 4: 4 "Jesus answered, It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God." JAG Note: See the whole passage Matthew 4:1 -11 for 2 more references to "it is written" that is, written in the Holy Scriptures. _______ Revelation 1: 1- 3 "The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near." _______ Romans 10:17 "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." ________ James 1: 22-25 "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do." ________ 2 Timothy 3:14-17 "But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." JAG Note: Note the particulars from 2 Timothy 3:14-17 {1} Timothy knew the Scriptures when he was young {2} the Scriptures were Holy {3} they were able to make Timothy wise {4} wise for salvation {5} salvation through faith in Christ Jesus {6} the Scriptures are God-breathed {7} all of them are God-breathed {not just some of them} {8} the Scriptures are useful for: ~ teaching ~ rebuking ~ correcting ~ training in righteousness {9} so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped {100%} {10} for every good work {not just some good work} ___________ Also consider these: * Job 23:12 "I have treasured the words of His mouth" * John 1:1 {The Living Word speaks God’s word} * Mathew 1:1-11 {Jesus used the Holy Scriptures to resist Satan.} * Psalm 12:6 "the words of the Lord are flawless" Can you think of other Bible verses to add to the above? If so, please post them Can you think of a theological point that would add to this subject. If so, please post that point. Your effort might be a blessing to some future reader. Many thanks. JAG

Thanks for writing that up. Much appreciated. JAG

Yah. Agreed. Say, Josheb if ya got a minute read this Opening Post below and especially read my comments in the thread. Tell me what you think of my comment about how "Nobody can argue against the Bible." You've run into some of the same stuff I'm referring to. I'm NOT talking about how things are here on this good Worthy Forum --- rather about how things are in some forums on the Internet At large. Its in big font. LINK Is Down Below:

Interesting up there. _________ Here is a verse to consider: "He changes times and seasons; he deposes kings and raises up others. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning."___Daniel 2:21

Thank you. And thanks for reading my Opening Post.

Thanks for your comments. I appreciate them. Regarding your "should we stay out of politics", I already gave my answer in the Opening Post. JAG Wrote: "Introductory Remarks: My entire family are Christians. We are all strong Conservatives. We are all Republicans. We have always voted for the Republican Party. We always will do that. We support Law and Order. Laws are necessary. Laws do reduce crime. Politics is necessary."___JAG So keep on voting for the Republican Party. What other choice do we have? ________ Regarding your "what will work": My view is expressed in the Opening Post. That's what I believe will work, namely John 3:3 followed by John 3:16 followed by Galatians 5:22-23. That's it for me. 'Course I also say "keep on voting fot the GOP." What other choice do we have? ``

Thank you. Josheb, I read all that very carefully. I agree with you on Tyranny. True to be sure. I note that America is roughly 50% Liberal Donk Party and 50% Conservative Republican Party. /just saying That old culture warrior Patrick J. Buchanan once said that "The Democratic Party and the Republican Party were the two wings of the same bird of prey." LOL. However, I don't see where there is any choice but to keep on voting for the Republican Party. There are only two political parties in America that can win national elections and they are the Donk Party and the Grand Old Party {GOP}. So its either vote GOP or vote for the Donks. I could never vote for the Donk Party. ________ I do believe my solutions put forth in the OP are the only solutions that will ever "fix America's problems." Time will tell. Thanks again for your excellent comments. ``

Thanks for your comments. And thanks for reading my Opening Post.

Here is the reason: So clearly these verses . . (A) Luke 12:32's "little flock" (B) Matthew 7:14's "only a few find it" (C) Matthew 22:14's "many are invited, but few are chosen" . . . . . .are NOT predictive of the future of the numerical size of the Christian Church.

This Opening Post is NOT to discuss any political issue. This Opening Post is ONLY to re-affirm the truth of: "If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.___2 Chronicles 7:14 _____________ I wrote this piece mainly for Christians, but non-Christians might find it interesting. Introductory Remarks: My entire family are Christians. We are all strong Conservatives. We are all Republicans. We have always voted for the Republican Party. We always will do that. We support Law and Order. Laws are necessary. Laws do reduce crime. Politics is necessary. Politics is merely what we do {policies , , , political policies} Nations do what they do, because they believe what they believe. There is no possible way to escape "the political process." Politics is here to stay until the end of time. Politics can temporarily solve some human problems. But politics can never solve the root problem, which is spiritual. A diseased ROOT will always produce "bad policies" fruit. Fix one political problem, and another will appear somewhere else. Diseased root. You must cure the "bad root" problem. to have good fruit. So? So there are better solutions to human problems than political solutions. These better solutions are spiritual solutions, Nonetheless , , , Many Christians seek political solutions to what they will admit are spiritual problems. They seek to "elect the right kind of men" to political office with the goal of fixing America's many moral, economic, and political problems. Read this next paragraph very carefully , , , They want the Christian moral code to become a reality through the political process. My view is this is utterly impossible to achieve. Here is my view of that in a nutshell: There is not a shred of Biblical evidence that teaches the way to fix a nation’s spiritual problems, is to elect “the right kinds of politicians" to public office. That is pure fantasy. The notion that: If we can "just somehow elect the right politicians", then we can legislate the Christian moral code into law” is pure fiction. This is never going to materialize and become a reality. Here are some of my reasons why: My view is that permanent change can not come through political laws and through the “political process." It is impossible to solve human problems apart from the supernatural power of God Almighty, and His Son the Lord Jesus, and the power of the Holy Spirit. {1} You must first change hearts before you can change minds. {2} All human moral problems are at root spiritual problems. {3} Moral problems are what causes political and economic problems. {4} There are no lasting secular political solutions for spiritual problems. {5} But there are lasting spiritual solutions to spiritual problems. {6} Those solutions must start with this: {A} John 3:3 You must be born again. {B} John 3:16 You must accept the Lord Jesus as your Savior. {C} Galatians 5:22-23 You must allow the Holy Spirit to produce the fruits of the Holy Spirit in your life, which are: {a} love {b} joy {c} peace {d} patience {e} kindness {f} goodness {g} faithfulness {h} gentleness {i} self-control This changes the "root" of the problem. This changes the heart. Which then changes the mind. So that men now desire to do what is right without being "forced to do right" by the political process , , ,Laws , , Police with guns , , Jail Time , ,etc Anything not the above will fail to permanently solve the "political" problem You can “throw money” at it. You can “throw laws” at it. You will fail. If you DO solve the problem in one area, the same ROOT problem will pop-up in another area. We saw this principle being played out in the streets of America as rioting, looting, burning cars, burning buildings, physical assaults, and murdering people was occurring right in front of Law Enforcement Officers and elected politicians, who, at the time, did not prevent it from happening. All this has a "root problem" that has been a reality for decades, and if this present social chaos is "solved" by politics, the "root problem" will re-appear, in another form, somewhere else in the "garden" of America. Its merely a question of "when" and "where" and "how bad" it will be, the next time it pops-up. "If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.___2 Chronicles 7:14 ``

Thanks, Josheb. And thanks for your comments.

Continued . . . In Conclusion . . . "I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not overcome it" ___The Lord Jesus in Matthew 16:18 NIV Note the phrase "I will BUILD my church" Does not this phrase and this verse clearly suggest that the numerical size of His church will not forever be a "little flock" and only a "few"? My view is that the Lord Jesus could not successfully BUILD His church if it forever remained a "little flock" and only a "few" in numbers? _______ Then consider the Lord Jesus's Great Commission at the end of Matthew's gospel chapter 28. Start quote. "Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Matthew 28:16-20 End quote. Note the particulars: (1) The Lord Jesus told His disciples to go and make disciples of ALL the nations, teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. (2) The Lord Jesus explained that they were to do this because He NOW had been given all authority in both Heaven and on Earth. (3) This "all authority" that the Lord Jesus NOW has both in Heaven and on Earth is the reason why His disciples would be successful in making disciples of ALL the nations. It is Jesus' power that empowers the certain success of His Great Commission to His Christian Church. So? So Matthew 28:16-20 clearly teaches that the Christian Church will not forever remain a "little flock" and only a "few" in numbers? My view is that it would be impossible for the disciples of the Lord Jesus to successfully make disciples of ALL nations teaching them to obey the commands of the Lord Jesus --- and at the same time the Christian Church remain only a "little flock" and only be a "few" in numbers? So? So regarding the Opening Post and all my follow-up posts in this thread, I conclude that the proposition "The Christian Church is NOT now and will NEVER again be just a "few" or a "little flock{" --has been established as true. The End. May God Bless Us All. `

Continued . . . Now consider Hebrews 11:11-12 and Romans 4: 16-17 Hebrews 11:11-12 says that from Abraham came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. This is a NEW TESTAMENT verse that says clearly that the Christian Church is NOT going to remain a "little flock." or just a "few". Abraham's descendants have been clearly identified as the Christian Church in the verses up-thread. Then add Romans 4: 16-17 that teaches that "Abraham's offspring" is the Christian Church and says clearly that "He (Abraham) is the father of us all." So? So there is no POSSIBLE way to interpret . . . (A) Luke 12:32's "little flock" (B) Matthew 7:14's "only a few find it" (C) Matthew 22:14's "many are invited, but few are chosen" . . .as being historically PREDICTIVE of the FUTURE numbers of the Christian Church. Conclusion: The final numbers of the Christian Church will be as numerous as the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore. The Christian Church is NOT now and will NEVER again be just a "few" or a "little flock." This ought to cheer the hearts and minds of all we Christians. Moreover, the Lord Jesus deserves a HUGE growing Christian Church in the world and He is going to have that. Christendom is right now at 2.3 billion worldwide and we are growing like wildfire in the Global South, in places like Africa. Also there is a HUGE growing underground Christian Church in China. House Church. And there is an HUGE-ENORMOUS Christian Church in South Korea. `

Continued . . . Now add Revelation 7:9-10 which says that there is a great multitude of the saved from every nation, tribe, people and language and they are so numerous that no one can count them. "After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count from every nation, tribe, people, and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes . . .and they cried out . . . Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne and to the Lamb." Revelation 7:9-10 So? So these verses . . . (A) Luke 12:32's "little flock" (B) Matthew 7:14's "only a few find it" (C) Matthew 22:14's "many are invited, but few are chosen" . . CANNOT be given a historically PREDICTIVE interpretation. They ONLY describe the small numbers of Christians who lived in the first century at the beginning of the public ministry of the Lord Jesus.

Continued . . . Please consider these 5 biblical passages regarding the present and coming HUGE-ENORMOUS numbers of the Christian Church. (1) Genesis 22:15-18 with (2) Galatians 3:6-9 with (3) Romans 4:16-17 with (4) Hebrews 11:11-12 with (5) Revelation 7:9-10 Start quote. "So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. Galatians 3:6-9 End quote. In Galatians 3:6-9 Paul teaches that those who have faith are the children of Abraham. (The children of Abraham are therefore the Christian Church.) In Genesis 22:15-18 God said to Abraham that he would make his descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as numerous as the sand on the seashore. (millions) So? So Genesis 22:15-18 clearly CONNECTS with Galatians 3:6-9 So? So the numbers of the Christian Church (the children of Abraham) will be as numerous as the numbers of stars in the sky and as numerous as the sand on the seashore.(millions) So? So the following 3 verses cannot be applied to the numerical FUTURE of the entire Christian Church . . . A) Luke 12:32's "little flock" (B) Matthew 7:14's "only a few find it" (C) Matthew 22:14's "many are invited, but few are chosen" Those verses up there (A), (B), (C) CANNOT be given a historically PREDICTIVE interpretation. They MUST be interpreted ONLY as describing the numerical conditions of the first century in which they were written. If you interpret them to refer to the FUTURE numbers of the Christian Church then you have created a contradiction. between Genesis 22:15-18 and Galatians 3:6-9 (and other Bible verses too) Again the ONLY proposition of my Opening Post and follow-up posts is that the numerical size of the Christian Church is NOT now, and never again will be, a "little flock" or "few" in number.

Continued . . . Genesis 22:15-18 God said to Abraham, "indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore . . . and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed." Note the particulars in Genesis 22:15-18 (1) stars (2) grains of sand on the seashore (3) all nations of the earth shall be blessed through Abraham's descendants. In Romans and Galatians and Hebrews the New Testament teaches that the Christian Church is the spiritual children of Abraham. More about that later. Meanwhile: How many stars are there in the universe? If you google that question, you'll get something like this: "Multiplying the number of galaxies, which is about 2 trillion, by the 100 million stars in a galaxy suggests there could be about 10 raised to the 20th power stars in the universe." That would be trillions and trillions of stars.

Continued . . . . Genesis 22:15-18 "The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me." Note the particulars: (1) "I will make your (Abraham) descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore" (2) "through your offspring all the nations on earth will be blessed."

Will Christians become as numerous as the stars in the sky and as numerous as the grains of sand on the seashore? Yes! Hebrews 11:11-12 From Abraham the father of all who are of faith came "descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore." Question: Do these three Bible verses teach that Christians are now, and will be in the future, few in numbers? No! (A) Luke 12:32's "little flock" (B) Matthew 7:14's "only a few find it" (C) Matthew 22:14's "many are invited, but few are chosen" Why? Because there are well over 2,300,000,000 Christians in the world .and 2.3 billion Christians cannot be a "little flock" or only a "few". There are over 16,000,000 Southern Baptist in the United States. Sixteen million Christians cannot be a "little flock" or a "few." There are over 1300 Protestant mega-churches in the United States with weekly attendance over 2000. That many Christians cannot be a "little flock" or just a "few." Anticipated objection: "Those people up there are not true Christians."___John Small Church My reply to John Small Church: It is absolutely impossible for you to know for certain that they are not true Christians. You do not have the power or the authority to judge the hearts of other people. That's just a fact and its an absolute fact. Only God has the power and the authority to judge the hearts of people and to know if they are, or are not, true Christians. I say all this, John Small Church, in the spirit of love and kindness. Remember this: You, like all Christians, are imperfect. You are not sinless. Therefore any one of those 2.3 billion Christians could look at the imperfections in your life and they could say about you, what you just said about them, namely that you are not a true Christian. So the conversation can end up like this: Bob: I am a true Christian, but you Tom, are not a true Christian. Tom: No Bob, I am a true Christian, but you are not a true Christian. Bob: No Tom, you do not meet my standards for being a true Christian. Tom: No Bob, you do not meet my standards for being a true Christian ________________ These 5 biblical passages below teach that the Christian Church will be HUGE-ENORMOUS in numbers. (1) Genesis 22:15-18 with (2) Galatians 3:6-9 with (3) Romans 4:16-17 with (4) Hebrews 11:11-12 with (5) Revelation 7:9-10 Meanwhile this thought: "As of the year 2015, Christianity has more than 2.3 billion adherents, out of about 7.5 billion people. The faith represents one-third of the world's population and is the largest religion in the world, with the three largest groups being the Catholic Church, Protestantism, and the Eastern Orthodox Church."__wiki ______ Clearly, Christianity is not now a "little flock" and it is impossible to interpret the Bible as teaching that the Christian Church is always going to be a "little flock." When was Christianity a "little flock"? Answer: It was a "little flock" at the time the Lord Jesus spoke the words of Luke 12:32. At that time there was probably less than 300 Christians in the entire world of the 1st century. The Christian Church is not a "little flock" now and will never again be a "little flock." So? So clearly these verses . . (A) Luke 12:32's "little flock" (B) Matthew 7:14's "only a few find it" (C) Matthew 22:14's "many are invited, but few are chosen" . . . . . .are NOT predictive of the future of the numerical size of the Christian Church. I will post some more thoughts on this subject in follow-up posts. `

Amen. Atheists also "suppress the truth" Romans 1:18 {See the whole passage Romans 1:18-20 below.} Romans 1:18-20 is not talking specifically about Atheists, but about people in general who suppress the truth, however Atheists are part of mankind so Romans 1:18-20 applies to them also. Moreover, Romans 1:18-20 presents the germ principle of the Teleological Argument "Intelligent Design} for the existence of God. So? So Atheists ought to believe in God. Romans 1:18-20 "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." ___Romans 1:18-20 The particulars: {1} People supress the truth {2} There is information about God available to them {3} God has made it plain to them. {4} It has been made plain since the creation of the world. {5} God's power and Divine nature have been clearly seen {6} All this was understood by looking at God's creation work {7} Therefore people ar without excuse So? So atheists have no excuse for not believing in God.

Okay Teddyv, thanks for reading my story and thanks for your comments. We're all different and we see things from different points of view. I am glad that you wrote your comments. I can understand what you said and I can agree with it. I want to add what you said to what I said. From my point of view there can now be two {2} takaway's from my story now that I have read what you said. I appreciate your comments.

Y'welcome , , , I appreciate you taking your time to come back and tell me that. I am going to give you two Tolkien quotes to show my appreciation. _________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”___J.R.R. Tolkien __________ “All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be the blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien, `

Your point is a good point. I have tried it both ways. {1} Kindness {2} Aggressive Argumentation. You can find examples of both approaches in the Holy Bible. For some really strong talk from the Lord Jesus and the Apostle Paul Read Matthew chapter 23 and read Galatians 1:6-10, just for starters. _____________ I have been on the Internet a very long time and have talked to a huge number of atheists about God and about the Lord Jesus, and I have used both {1} and {2} up there. Results? Only God knows for sure. But so far as I know neither {1} or {2} has worked. Then this point: Actually my motive in writing my story was to help Christians see this: "The takeaway point, in case you missed it, is that Atheists are not as smart as they think they are."___JAG Also the story pokes fun at atheists' pseudo-logic in argumentation and does not directly attack them. __________ One last point: I have another version of that same story addressed to we Christians. Some of my true born again brothers and sisters in the Lord will "eat you alive" if you upset their doctrinal apple cart. Nobody here at Worthy is like that, but "out there" on the Internet there are some true Christians that are "looking for a fight" and they will "jump down your throat" in a flash if you say one word that upsets their doctrinal apple cart. And some are very easy to upset. What you run into is you suddenly find yourself "disagreeing with God." What does that mean? It means there are some true born again Christians on the Internet At Large that hold the position that "If you disagree with me doctrinally, then you are disagreeing with God." And of course, you can't argue with God. Once they tell you, "Then you don't believe God" or "Then you don't believe the Bible" the discussion is pretty much over. Tis true: There are some true born again Christians on Forums on the Internet At Large that hold the position that "If you disagree with me doctrinally, then you are disagreeing with God." And some of them will accuse you of not even being a Christian merely because you disagree with them on some doctrinal point ---and I am a Bible believing Baptist, and a Protestant, and an Evangelical and I am as orthodox as you can get -- - but I have been accused of not even being a Christian merely because I did not agree with my fellow Christians in areas such as Christian Eschatology. Also I have seen true born again Christians accuse each other of not being true Christians in threads where the Once Saved Always Saved thingy was being argued because they disagreed with each other. So? So its possible to read my story and think about some Christians who do not discuss and argue on the basis of love, but are unreasonable and unloving in their approach to argumentation. __________ God Bless you too, my friend. JAG ``

Okay. Thanks again for reading my story. /smile