JAG**

Super great post Ray -- much appreciated by ne. You put some thought into that and made some very good points -- a very helpful post. Thanks for taking the time to write that up. JAG

Thanks. Much appreciated. Could you squeeze in a new computer, a new house, and a couple of new cars? /BIG GRIN

Choir Loft, thanks for your comments.

Thank you for your comments and for reading my Opening Post. By the way, I love Matthew 28:16-20. Its the Lord Jesus' Great Commission to His Christian Church. My view is that His Christian Church will succeed in making disciples of all the nations before the Lord Jesus returns to this Earth. My view is that the Lord Jesus really meant it when He told His disciples to go and disciple the nations. He was not kidding. He was not speaking lightly. He even told His disciples what their power would be in order to get this task completed. That power was this: Jesus said that all authority both in Heaven and on Earth had been given to Him, therefore go and make disciples of all the nations. In another place the Lord Jesus said that He would build His Church and the Gates Of Hell would not prevail against it. Victory!

Interesting points. Thanks for your contribution to the thread -- much appreciated.

Yah, atheism functions, for all practical purposes, like a religion, that's for certain. They have an atheistic world-view. They have an atheistic philosophical belief system. Atheists generally disagree on very little. They almost always stand together on all the social issues and take liberal positions. Their numbers are growing too -- if you believe Pew Research telephone survey's. I now this: They are all over the Internet on Social Media. To bad. That's sad. `

I have been on the web a very long time and have talked to an enormous number of atheists, and they are well aware of "the agnostic thingy" and the vast majority of Activist-Internet-Thread-Atheists that I have talked to define themselves as those who lack belief in God or gods. The vast majority of them will say that they do NOT assert that they KNOW there is no God or gods, rather they say that so far they have NOT seen any valid evidence that God exists. Most atheists phrase it like this: "It is impossible to prove that God does not exist, so we do not assert that we KNOW that God does not exist, rather we merely lack belief that God exist." And they will tell you that they are atheists and not agnostics. and then tell you what I just said up-post. ___________ But hey, I'm on your side. It does not bother me even slightly if you want to proclaim that they are agnostics and not atheists. ____________ Also this: This boils down to an argument about what is the correct definition of the word "atheist" and the word "agnostic." I have seen this argued in threads and they search the dictionaries on the Internet to fine the definition that each prefers -- and each CAN indeed find definitions that they prefer. Here is the definition of atheist from Merriam-Webster a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods. b : a philosophical or religious position characterized by disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods. So? So you can pick which ever definition you prefer. If you google "atheist definition" you will see what I mean, if you read them all. _____________ By the way, I have no problem with defining atheism as a "secular religion." My view is that atheism functions like a religion, and therefore is, de facto, a religion. This is especially true for these so-called "New Atheists" who are secular religious fanatics in their constant attack on the God of the Bible and on Christianity. If you google "the church of atheism" you will pull up a lot of material. `

Regarding the 97%, you have to convince other people to your point of view, unless you are satisfied with re-confirming to yourself what you already believe. This means you have to convince other people that you DO have ULTIMATE worth and value even though, on Humans-Cease-To-Exist-Atheism you have the same identical ultimate end as does a cockroach, house plant, and smashed critter road kill. Questions for you: Do you think you can convince other people to come to agree with you? A house plant died in the year 2000. Is that particular house plant now valuable? A critter crossing the road was smashed flat and died in the year 2000. Is that particular critter now valuable? On Humans-Cease-To-Exist-Atheism what is the ULTIMATE difference between a dead human and a dead house plant and a dead cockroach, and a dead smashed critter road kill? On Humans-Cease-To-Exist-Atheism all 4 cease to exist and become this 0. 000 How can 0.000 be valuable? ______________ I do believe that John 3:16 offers a much better future than does Humans-Cease-To-Exist-Atheism. "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that whoever believes on Him, shall not perish but have eternal life." Don't you agree? _______________ Butch, thanks for your comments and for your responses and for your interest in my Opening Post. I look forward to reading any responses you post. __________________ Meanwhile . . . May the Lord bless you. May the Lord keep you. May the Lord make His face shine upon you. May the Lord be gracious unto you. May the Lord turn His face towards you. May the Lord always protect you. May the Lord give you peace. {Based on Numbers 6:24-27} `

Continued . . . Some Intelligent Design Quotes From An Atheist: Fred Hoyle. "Would you not say to yourself, "Some super-calculating intellect must have designed the properties of the carbon atom, otherwise the chance of my finding such an atom through the blind forces of nature would be utterly minuscule. A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super-intellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question." — Fred Hoyle[19] Source: Fred Hoyle - Wikipedia “I am an atheist, but as far as blowing up the world in a nuclear war goes, I tell them not to worry.”___Fred Hoyle Fred Hoyle Quotes (Author of The Black Cloud) _________ So? So make note of the bolded up there. ``

“I am an atheist, but as far as blowing up the world in a nuclear war goes, I tell them not to worry.”___Fred Hoyle “Life cannot have had a random beginning ... The trouble is that there are about 2000 enzymes, and the chance of obtaining them all in a random trial is only one part in 10^40,000, an outrageously small probability that could not be faced even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup.”___Fred Hoyle “There is a coherent plan to the universe, though I don't know what it's a plan for.”__Fred hoyle “The notion that not only the biopolymer but the operating program of a living cell could be arrived at by chance in a primordial organic soup here on the Earth is evidently nonsense of a high order.”__Fred Hoyle “Once we see, however, that the probability of life originating at random is so utterly miniscule as to make it absurd, it becomes sensible to think that the favorable properties of physics on which life depends are in every respect deliberate ... . It is therefore almost inevitable that our own measure of intelligence must reflect ... higher intelligences ... even to the limit of God ... such a theory is so obvious that one wonders why it is not widely accepted as being self-evident. The reasons are psychological rather than scientific.”___ Fred Hoyle “A junkyard contains all the bits and pieces of a Boeing 747, dismembered and in disarray. A whirlwind happens to blow through the yard. What is the chance that after its passage a fully assembled 747, ready to fly, will be found standing there? So small as to be negligible, even if a tornado were to blow through enough junkyards to fill the whole Universe.”___Fred Hoyle “It isn't the Universe that's following our logic, it's we that are constructed in accordance with the logic of the Universe. And that gives what I might call a definition of intelligent life: something that reflects the basic structure of the Universe.”___Fred Hoyle Source: Fred Hoyle Quotes (Author of The Black Cloud) __________________ Who was Fred Hoyle? "Sir Fred Hoyle (24 June 1915 – 20 August 2001)[1] was an English astronomer who formulated the theory of stellar nucleosynthesis . . .He spent most of his working life at the Institute of Astronomy at Cambridge and served as its director for six years." Source: Fred Hoyle - Wikipedia _____________ So? So here is at least one atheist that saw the truth, moreorless. `

{1} Love must be sincere. {2} Hate what is evil. {3} Cling to what is good. {4} Be devoted to one another in love. {5} Honor one another above yourselves. {6} Never be lacking in zeal {7} Keep your spiritual fervor. {8} Serve the Lord. {9} Be joyful in hope. {10} Be patient in affliction. {11} Be faithful in prayer. {12} Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. (13) Practice hospitality. {14} Bless those who persecute you. {15} Bless them and do not curse them. {16} Rejoice with those who rejoice. {17} Mourn with those who mourn. {18} Live in harmony with one another. {19} Do not be proud. {20} Be willing to associate with people of low position. {21} Do not be conceited. {22} Do not repay anyone evil for evil. {23} Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. {24} If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. {25} Do not take revenge {26} If your enemy is hungry, feed him. {27} Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Proposition: The New Testament offers practical solutions for human problems. Which ones above, if observed, would likely solve most of humanity's problems? I'd pick {1} . .{2} . . {3} . . {4} . . for starters. Look 'em over carefully. Which ones would you pick? And why? _________ Number {23} should raise an eyebrow. My view is that Number {23} refers to the general moral code shared by most of humanity, for example Do not murder. Do not steal. Do to others what you would have them do to you. Your thoughts? `

Amen to that. ____________ Quote For Today: “All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be the blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king.”___J.R.R. Tolkien _________ I like Tolkien. `

Agreed. But it "makes 'em mad" when we tell them they're not really an atheist. Some will "fly into a rage" and have to be "calmed down" with soft smoothing tones. /grin They don't like to hear Psalm 14:1 either. "The fool has said in his heart, There is no God."

Thanks Beau, for the explanation. Maybe that explains why my Opening Post/Thread vanished? Anyway its not a problem. `

That's okay Sower, I understand fully. And thanks for trying to help me -- much appreciated. I DO believe! I know it is there. /BIG GRIN ______________ Those poor atheists! They'll just have to "get along without me" for awhile. `

Hello Beau, Speaking of curiosity, I am curious about what happened to my Opening Post on Capital Punishment/The Death Penalty. It vanished. Did the Mods move it somewhere else? Or did they delete it? I hope I did not violate the Terms Of Service when I posted it. I am always very careful to observe and obey the Terms Of Service and keep all the Forum's Rules. The reason I am asking you this question, is because I remember you made a post in that thread before it vanished. Do you have any idea where it went? Or why it may have been deleted? Its not a problem, I'm just curious. `

Hello Tristen, Good point. Thanks for the contribution.

I think the vast majority of Activist-Internet-Thread-Atheists say that atheism is a lack of belief in God or gods. The vast majority of them will say that they do NOT assert that they KNOW there is no God or gods, rather they say that so far they have NOT seen any valid evidence that God exists. Most atheists phrase it like this: "It is impossible to prove that God does not exist, so we do not assert that we KNOW that God does not exist, rather we merely lack belief that God exist."

Appy, I understand. and thanks for taking the time to explain. -- much appreciated.

I got the same message as Beau and I tried it 3 times. I even did a copy/paste in a new window and got the same message as Beau. Sower, thank you for trying to help me find the page. If you can think of any other way, let me know. JAG

I followed your directions as best I could. I did not see "Worthy Pavilion" anywhere on this site. I did find "Science and Faith" but saw nothing about "non-believers." I am sorry to bother you -- but can you give me the link? {I made a posting error previously}

I agree that what is, or is not, "absurd" is subjective and not objective. Nonetheless, I am going to assert that the "absurdity" lies within the "cockroach" reality, as stated in my Opening Post: "On Humans-Cease-To-Exist Atheism there is no ultimate difference in the end of a human being and a cockroach, in that both have the same ultimate destiny, namely oblivion as in ceasing to exist."___JAG My view is that 97% of humanity believes its absurd to believe a human being and a cockroach have the identical same ultimate end --- which is Ceasing-To-Exist Oblivion --- and you can add "house plants" and "smashed critter road kills" to cockroaches. On Humans-Cease-To-Exist-Atheism humans have the same ultimate worth and value as does a "critter road kill" --- both end up as 0.0000 `

Sower, What is the name of that "section" "for them"? I read carefully the forum departments and did not see any clearly marked department for atheists. Can you give me the link to it? Or the specific name of it? Thanks. `

Start quote. "Henry Dodwell argues that matters of religious faith lie outside the determination of reason. God could not possibly have intended that reason should be the faculty to lead us to faith, for faith cannot hang indefinitely is suspense while reason cautiously weighs and reweighs arguments. `The Scriptures teach, on the contrary, that the way to God is by means of the heart, not by means of the intellect . . .(What is the basis of faith? Dodwell answers that it is) the faith-producing work of the Holy Spirit . . . Now Alvin Plantinga . . . Alvin Plantinga has launched a sustained attack on theological rationalism. Plantinga maintains that belief in God and in the central doctrines of Christianity is both rational and warranted wholly apart from any evidential foundations for belief . . . Then William Lane Craig says . . . I think that Dodwell and Plantinga are correct that, fundamentally, the way we know Christianity to be true is by the self-authenticating witness of God's Holy Spirit." End quote Source: Reasonable Faith by William Lane Craig pages 35, 39, 43 Alvin Plantinga and William Lane Craig are considered to be Christendom's top Christian apologists. ____________ JAG Writes: Christianity is a FAITH. The word FAITH occurs hundreds and hundreds of times in the Bible and is presented as being absolutely essential to sustaining the Christian FAITH. So? So demonstrate with empiricism and logic that Christianity is true at the certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4 and you then no longer have to exercise FAITH in God. It does NOT require any FAITH to believe that 2 + 2 = 4. These 5 Bible verses below would no longer be needed and would no longer be true. ■ "without faith it is impossible to please God" ■ "for by grace are you saved through faith" ■ "he that comes to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him" ■ "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved" ■ God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall not perish but have eternal life ■ And the HUNDREDS of other Bible verses that demand faith would no longer be needed or be true. Demonstrate with empiricism that Christianity is true at the certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4 and then you would have this: He that comes to God need NOT exercise faith because we now know, based upon empirical evidence that rises to the certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4, that God exists. It is just as certain as is the fact that New York City exists. No faith is needed to believe that New York City exists. So? So . . . Eliminate FAITH from Christianity and Christianity has just been destroyed and wrecked. ■ "for by grace are you saved through faith" Ephesians 2:8 ■ "without faith it is impossible to please God" Hebrews 11:6 ■ "God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall not perish but have eternal life" John 3:16 --- Its impossible to eliminate the need for Christendom's core Bible verse John 3:16 without wrecking and destroying Christendom. ____________ Here are a couple of quotes that readers may find interesting: (1) " . . . the role of rational argumentation in knowing Christianity to be true is the role of a servant. A person knows Christianity is true because the Holy Spirit tells him it is true, and while arguments and evidence can be used to support this conclusion, they cannot legitimately overrule it . . ." __William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith, page 51 (2) ". . .I'd say that with most people there's no need to use apologetics at all . . . " __William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith, page 57 _______________ Note: My Opening Post does NOT say that Christian Apologetics is not useful and needed. Christian Apologetics IS useful and IS needed --- but Christian Apologetics can NOT eliminate from Christianity the necessity to exercise faith in God However the opening Post does NOT advocate for Fideism. The Opening Post makes one {1} main point --- that faith cannot be eliminated from Christianity without destroying Christianity. "Strict Fideists assign no place to reason in discovering or understanding fundamental tenets of religion. For them blind faith is supreme as the way to certitude and salvation."__off the web Again . . . I do not argue for Fideism. There are some evidences to support the existence of God and the truth of Christianity, but these evidences must be evaluated on the basis of Probability and Plausibility which are subjective and are saturated with our human biases, prejudices, and presuppositions. Nonetheless these kinds of arguments are valuable to many people. ________ I post all the above as "food for thought" --- each reader can draw his own conclusions regarding how much importance he puts upon rational argumentation to support Christianity. For those inclined to rational argumentation: Here are Peter Kreeft's 20 Arguments for The Existence Of God. http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-mo...-existence.htm ` QuoteReply Report