Marcus O'Reillius

I don't know that he will be the "anointed" King of Israel. Scripture does not grant the King of the North that title, nor does it ever designate him as the King of Israel even after conquering it.

Messiah means "Anointed". Christ means "Anointed". "While māshȋah may designate an office such as the high priest (Lev 4:3), māshȋah is almost exclusively reserved as a synonym for "king" (melek, q.v.) as in poetry where it is in parallel position with king (I Sam 2:10; II Sam 22:51; cf. Ps 2:2; 18:50 [H 51]; but cf. Ps 28:8 where "people" is a counterpart term)... Certainly a title of honor, the expressions also emphasize the special relationship between God and the anointed." Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, p.531

Dan 9:27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." Gabriel says one 'seven' or week. As it is not a week as we think, 'seven' conveys what it means in the Hebrew. You can read how it begins, and you can read how it ends. Why are you asking me what everyone who has even a modicum of study on prophecy should know? Don't you know?

I agree. I think this happens during the first half of the one 'seven' as well, but it could come before that even. I cannot agree with your timeline. I have outlined the sequence-of-events in this manner. It is a compilation of the major linear prophetic narratives. War (on Terror) between North and South The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea” with ten Kings (Council of Ministers) Little horn "hamstrings" three "Kings" to rise to power over the Beast of a Nation Rebellion occurs Opposition and exaltation Covenant with many prevailed by the Roman ruler who will come Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven' He wages war against the Saints We are to endure patiently (remember Rev 3:10 and John 17:15) Temple w/ Gentiles 42 mos. Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky' The “one” removed from the midst Gog/Magog War - flash flood invasion of Holy Land Armies surround Jerusalem - pitches his tent at the Holy Mountain. Midpoint Abomination - Setting up the talking image of the anti-Christ Those in Judea flee / Remnant protected Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever “Mikael" arises Two Witnesses 1260 days - call down Wrath Great Tribulation - the Elect are persecuted Sun/moon/star event Day of the LORD Scrolling of the sky = sign of the Son of Man Jesus touches down on Mount Zion Jews flee through the cleft of the Mount of Olives Mustering the 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked Jesus resurrects the Saints / Last Trumpet Dead in Christ Martyr's deeds will be remembered (Two Witnesses left behind) Deliverance = Harvest Redemption / Gathering Elect from the clouds Those who are alive and are left Great Multitude arrives in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation Books / Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal First Trumpet fire and blood – 1/3rd of earth burned Avenging Angels – supplying Blood and managing the Fire Wrath of God following the Day of the Lord Second Trumpet - 1/3rd of sea to blood Third Trumpet - 1/3rd of water bitter Fourth Trumpet - 1/3rd of light struck Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment Sixth Trumpet WWIII - 1/3rdf of man killed Seventh Trumpet First Bowl - Sores on Man Second Bowl - All sea to blood Third Bowl - All water to blood Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon Jesus marshals the Remnant through perilous times Two Witnesses die from Demon from Abyss The Great Multitude and the 24 Elders rejoice in Heaven Jesus and His army (144,000) go out to do battle Seventh Bowl – Man of Lawlessness is undone: end with desolations poured out on the Roman desolator Victory at Armageddon anti-Christ and false prophet captured Two Witnesses arise Earth changing earthquake Jews survive the earthquake in Jerusalem End of the one ‘seven’ First three beasts allowed to live a while Atonement of Christ Christ returns to Heaven 30 day period Sojourn to Mount Zion Beast of a Man thrown into Hell – done away with entirely Satan imprisoned Martyrs made alive Rewarding the Saints 45 day period – Encampment Sukkot at Mount Zion Establishment of Millennium reign of Christ Saints rule the earth / Israel is at peace Satan released at end of Millennium Revolt of the nations / their destruction Great White Throne Judgment = separation of the Sheep and Goats Death and Hades destroyed New Heaven and New Earth

So since when did the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath thread become hijacked into the all sky all the time thread?

I am not misapplying Daniel 11 to Daniel 8. Daniel 8 concerns the transfer from the Medes/Persians to the Greeks. WE DISAGREE ON THIS POINT AND WE WILL PROBABLY NEVER AGREE. In the latter part of that story, Antiochus is referenced as the little horn. He has significant relevance to the future anti-Christ.

Agreed, it is during his ascendancy. During this time, he will wage war on the Saints and oppress them. Disagreed. I maintain in accordance with Daniel 927 that the abomination (of) desolation happens at the midpoint of one 'seven' and is revealed in Revelation (duh) as the talking image of the anti-Christ. I don't think so. I think the false death and the false resurrection of the false Christ (anti-Christ) happens during this time. Connected to the introduction and description of the false prophet, the beast from the "land" (Israel) is this: ...to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life. (v.14) Which I think goes back to something which happens during the description of the anti-Christ here: Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb... This comes after John describes how he will make war and overcome the Saints. I think they are worshiping him because of this so-called "miracle" happened in that time frame, i.e., during the first half of the one 'seven'. Disagreed. I think it will be in accordance with 2Th 2:4 which is I think is coincidental with Daniel 9:27. The anti-Christ invades the Holy Land, encamps by the Holy Mountain (Dan 11:45) and then makes his grand entrance. The false prophet, in capitulating to the anti-Christ, presents him with the talking image of himself, and then the unspeakable happens: the proclamation of godhood and the talking image. Again, I disagree on your formulaic calculation based in part on Daniel 8, and again I revert to deference to Daniel 9:27; the AoD happens at mid-week of the one 'seven'. I totally disagree with your timeline. Don't ask me why this is here.

You're done? Finally. And don't tell me that if I criticize your take that some random thought that pops into head is from the Holy Spirit and that by doing so I'm blaspheming the Holy Spirit. That's delusional thinking there brother.

I said: No, again, and this is getting repetitious. I look at Daniel 8 as detailing the near-term future to Daniel about a figure that PERTAINS to the end-times. That chapter details the transition from the Medes-Persian Empire to Alexander the Great, which then devolves into four factions set against each other, out of which Antiochus arises. It is not something of my own wishing: it is a matter of what is written in the text. You do not have to make this personal. It's not personal. It's a matter of individual interpretation, and I just happen to disagree with yours.

Douggg said: And RM said: And I can answer that. Most of the descriptions we have of the anti-Christ come from Daniel. This is not surprising because he is a man of the world, and Daniel concerns itself with the nations of the world, showing as its theme, God's authority over the kings and kingdoms of this world to set them up and take them down - ultimately replacing them with His Kingdom on earth, just as we pray: "on earth, as it is in Heaven". We find the ant-Christ as the little horn in Daniel 7:9 who rises up from the fourth terrible beast. The anti-Christ has a template in Antiochus, who serves as a near-term prophecy in Daniel 8, which "pertains" (but does not translate 1:1) to the end-times. We find the anti-Christ in Gabriel's message to Daniel in chapter 9 as the "ruler who will come". We can find the anti-Christ in the last major vision Daniel receives in chapter 11 where the generational account of the Selucid/Ptomemy wars gets to the abomination Antiochus sets up in 11:31 which acts as a lens of dual focus, shifting the narrative to the far-term, which is still our future with an unknown ruler described in 11:36-39, and the actions he takes in 11:40-45. The anti-Christ is mentioned as a individual by John in his letters to the Church. Lastly, we can see the anti-Christ as the beast-of-a-man in Revelation chapter 13. Here he is said to suffer a false death; have a false resurrection; and hence becomes a false (anti-) Christ worshiped by the wicked. So the presumption Revelation Man makes is that the anti-Christ is a false narrative, when in reality, he looks at these passages with a totally different mindset. It's not that they're not there - it's that he doesn't accept them. Which does not mean they don't exist... just that he doesn't accept them as existing and becoming the basis for a literal, future fulfillment of these end-time prophetic passages.

Furthermore, WHEN the Day of the LORD comes to pass, I would put it to you that Jesus will remove said abomination from the Temple as He also defiles and redeems the Land of Israel with the washing of blood on the Day of the Lord, setting up Israel as a rock on which to later smash the nations. I think a picture of His Return to the Temple on that Day is envisioned by Ezekiel in chapter 9 of his book.

Daniel 8:5 While I was observing, behold, a male goat was coming from the west over the surface of the whole earth without touching the ground; and the goat had a conspicuous horn between his eyes. 6 He came up to the ram that had the two horns, which I had seen standing in front of the canal, and rushed at him in his mighty wrath. 5- 7 Verse 5 foretells coming disaster for Cyrus in the figure of an amazingly swift, one- horned goat that with one mighty charge shatters the horns of the Medo- Persian ram. First, the goat is described as coming from the west, that is, from the region of Macedonia and Greece (as Alexander the Great did in 334 B. C., when he won the Battle of Granicus in Asia Minor). Second, he moves so fast that his hooves barely touch the ground as he charges all the way to the eastern limit of the Persian domain ("crossing the whole earth"). Third, this irresistible invading force is to be under the leadership of one man, rather than under a coalition of nations, as the Persians had been. In vain the ram attempts to withstand the charge of the goat (v. 6), as the goat hurls himself against the ram-- an implied prediction that the Macedonian- Greek forces would launch an unprovoked invasion such as took place in 334. - Expositor's Bible Commentary. Daniel 8 concerns a near-term prophecy about Greece and Medes-Persia detailing the transfer of power from the second Kingdom of Daniel 2 to the third Kingdom of Daniel 2 as shown in the statue that Nebuchadnezzar dreamed about that only Daniel could both tell of, and give an interpretation to. The little horn that rises up from the four horns (the divided Greek Kingdom) in Daniel 8:9 is Antiochus. In the previous vision of the fourth terrible beast in Daniel chapter 7, verse 8, the little horn that arises out of the ten horns and "hamstrings" three of those horns is the anti-Christ. Antiochus and the anti-Christ are very similar, and the first gives us a pattern for the second. This is not the last time God will show Daniel how one morphs into the other. Thus, I do not apply the 2300 evenings and mornings - and the reference is not clear as to whether this is 2300 days, or 2300 evenings AND mornings, which would yield 1115 days - to the paired and opposite ends of the one 'seven' which are alternatively labeled, a time (a year), times (2 years), and half a time (6 months); 42 months, or 1260 days. I reject your conclusion, stated as "therefore," that there is even an equation of 2520-2300 = 220. The midpoint abomination, fully revealing the Son of Peridition when the talking image of him is erected in the Holy Place (like what Antiochus did) happens after the 42 months God gives the anti-Christ the authority to rule, and wage war upon us, oppressing us as set out in Revelation chapter 13. Thus reading Rev 13:14-15 has happening after Rev 13:5, resonates with the abomination of desolation coming at the midpoint of the one 'seven' as per Daniel 9:27.

First of all, brother, you want to speak for God? You go right ahead. But if you don't want any correction, don't try to slap me back with saying that I am somehow that when I say your thinking is your own, that I am blaspheming the Holy Spirit. You just aint't special buddy. 1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, Now you can say that John is looking up to the sky, and I would agree. This is your "heaven". 2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne. This is not your "heaven". This is a place that is not in the sky. It is the abode of God. Since God existed before creating any of the sky in which the DOOR appeared, then your contention that all "heavens" in the Bible is air or space - really falls short of what Scripture reveals about the third Heaven of the very Presence of the Father. And to get TO the third Heaven of the Presence of the Father, John had to go through a door in the sky; those two "heavens" are not one and the same. Saying they are one and the same is YOUR thinking - buddy-ro.

Yeah, I was trying to insert a quote while doing an edit, and a whole post just disappeared. Rather than write it all again, I wiped out the original quote and put in that message. Oh well!

Oh contraire. Antiochus is the template for the anti-Christ and so you're right and you're wrong. Daniel 8 is short-term, but it segues to the end times. ~ "it pertains to the appointed time of the end." in verse 19 The Ram and the Goat concerns the shift in power from the Medes-Persia to the Greeks. This is Daniel's near-term. The lesson of Antiochus and his upset of the Temple in 168 B.C. (which has to do with the 2300 evenings and mornings) sets the stage and has to do with Daniel's far-term. This same "Dual Focus" is used in Daniel 11 to cover a generational conflict which pivots at the abomination of Antiochus to the anti-Christ. The attributes of Antiochus pertains to the very character of the anti-Christ, as Gabriel says, the vision of the evenings and mornings is true, but "it pertains to many days in the future." in verse 26 as well. It is not just describing the time of the end, but showing how the near-term is a pattern and an example for the end-times.

Yes, fully revealed - so there can be no doubt. You, on the basis of Daniel 8 have interpreted TWO times of desolation. The Transgression based on Daniel 8:12, and the abomination based on Daniel 9:27. However, I do not count Daniel's near-term prophecy concerning Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 168B.C. as a 1:1 for the end-times. What you see as two, I see as one. Yes, Antiochus provides the basis for shifting to a greater anti-Christ in the Son of Perdition, and yes, there are descriptive elements which transfer from one to the other in Daniel 8. However, I discount the 2,300 evenings and mornings as applying in the end-times. That is bound by the one 'seven' which is split in two in its introduction by Gabriel.

Or alternately, he will not be fully revealed until the midpoint abomination in accordance with Rev 13:14-15 and the Two Laws which make the Great Tribulation so terrible for the Elect - and then we have the Harvest from the cloud by Jesus in accordance with Rev 14:14-16 as some time after the midpoint of the one 'seven'.

Of course.

I disagree: He. He might be alive right now, but we really can't know for sure. Even Martin Luther thought he was in the end-times.

I don't think so. The beast-of-a-nation, the fourth terrible beast of Rev 13:2, and the scarlet beast of 17:3 - is also portrayed as a possessed dragon-entity in Rev 16:13. And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; 14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, The dragon/beast-of-a-nation which has seven heads, one of which "is" during the end-times, which I peg as the beast-of-a-man: the anti-Christ, is itself more than just a piece of paper or a name.

You spoke on the previous page about the "Tribulation" and the "Great Tribulation." I do not classify, as so many do, the final one 'seven' as the "Tribulation Period." I think that is a misnomer. I do refer to the Great Tribulation because Jesus defines it as a specific and unique (never before and never repeated) event. Jesus defines the Great Tribulation as starting after the (midpoint) abomination spoken by Daniel (9:27) and ending with the precursor sun/moon/star sign of the Day of the Lord. In Revelation, coincident with the erection of the talking image (of the anti-Christ ~ REVEALING who he is) come two laws we are explicitly told not to obey if we expect eternal life. I think the Great Tribulation serves two purposes: To weed out nominal Christians. To provide that great body of martyrs found in the fifth Seal. The five foolish virgins BUY oil, which is not just the Holy Spirit (as some foolishly say) but a real commodity. To do so, in a literal, futuristic sense, would necessitate having them take the mark of the beast. And THAT is why they cannot enter the wedding feast of the Lamb. The faithful will lose their life rather than buy anything to survive. And Jesus told us to do just that - to lose our life for His sake and so gain it for all eternity.

Like I said, everybody is still trying to pin the tail on that donkey. He has YET to be revealed.

In all of this arguing, remember: the Son of Perdition has not yet been revealed. Yeah, everyone likes to pin the tail on the donkey, but so far, no one has been able to make their point stick.